Is it possible to get self-published book in bookstores/retailers?

It's possible, but unlikely. Many bookstores, especially the chain stores, do not stock self published books. You might have some luck with local independant stores which stock local authors though.

Being broadly available in chain stores has less to do with popularity and more with distribution. A store in a chain can only order a book off a major database with a hefty discount and unlimited returns. I only know of the few self-publishers managing this, often by using Lightning Source.

You might get into a few local stories and independents by offering books on consignment.

Dean Wesley Smith has a blog post on getting into indie bookstores—and if his methods interest you, you should probably check out the rest of the "Think Like a Publisher" series, too.

As for chain stores, my closest B&N has allowed local a self-published author to do a book signing there—but then, that B&N staff might not've realized the guy was self-published. The author was one of those "Hide behind a self-made publishing company and don't 'fess up" types.

Yep. To follow on veinglory's comment, there are two questions involved in getting a store to stock a self-pub book: can they, and will they?

To get picked up by someone like B&N and even many indie bookstores, your book has to be orderable (I'm making a new word) through a distributor who offers discounts and returns, the same terms on which the store orders all its other books. If they can't return it, they often can't stock it--those are often guidelines coming down from the corporate offices, and no matter how nice the individual store manager is or how pro-self-publishing she might be, she literally is not allowed to stock your title.

The second issue is will they. In a chain bookstore, books live and die by their sales numbers. Every Tuesday more books pour out of the big 6 and there has to be room for the three hundred copies of Eat Pray Love because that's still flying off the shelves, where your book won't sell like that. So even if they can order it, they may not want it taking up room, when chances are they're going to have to send it back in short order anyway.

The second part of will they is, sadly, many self-published authors do a bad job of being ambassadors for the whole group. They storm into a store and are pushy, don't understand how ordering and distribution works, insist that their book be carried, assume they're going to be able to set up a signing because they live down the street, and, if the book is stocked, call every day to see how many have sold and if they need to send more. Not every SP author is like that, of course--the vast majority aren't like that. However, a few have spoiled it for the many. A lot of stores simply don't want to even open the door to an author who can harass them in person.

That said, it can be done. One of my coworkers has a self-published novel, and since he works at the store, he knew enough to make sure he had a self-pub company that had good distribution. We order his book and stock it on the Employee Recommends shelves. It's a matter of having the right pieces in the right places, and a little bit of luck.

Some of the missing posts, restored thanks to Google Cache.


Originally Posted by Caradee, 07-06-2011, 04:11 :

JSSchley
To get picked up by someone like B&N and even many indie bookstores, your book has to be orderable (I'm making a new word) through a distributor who offers discounts and returns, the same terms on which the store orders all its other books.

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I've not reached a point to have enough titles available to test this for myself, but my understanding is that "You must use the returns system" is a myth (except for accepting returns for flawed goods).

For example, Dean Wesley Smith talks about it here. (Yes, he's an author—but he also ran a publishing company at one point, and he's evidently getting his self-published books ordered by indie bookstores now.) If you read through his blog, he even points to the discount system he uses (which at 11+ books is 45% off cover price + free standard shipping).

I've known bookstore employees who called the entire returns policy silly, but they weren't going to say no to any who offered them such a singularly beneficial policy. Because that's who the policy benefits: the bookstore. Not the publisher.

*shrugs* I also know of Christian presses that don't use the returns system, and they get their books stocked by Christian bookstores.

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Originally posted by Terie 07-06-2011, 04:29 PM:

Originally Posted by Carradee View Post
Dean Wesley Smith ..... (Yes, he's an author—but he also ran a publishing company at one point, and he's evidently getting his self-published books ordered by indie bookstores now.)

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You might be missing an important connection here. Dean Wesley Smith is an author who ran a publishing company at one point.... he therefore has extensive inside publishing knowledge in addition to his well-established fan base. These are extremely relevant points, not mere asides.

For someone who doesn't have Mr Smith's background and fan base, it's a very different ball of wax.

Possible? Yes. But has already been said, and Mr Smith's blog notwithstanding, it's still very VERY unlikely for the average Joe First-Time-Self-Pubbed author to get stocked on bookshop shelves, much less in the chains and even mucher lesser (!) *nationwide* in the chains.

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Originally posted by Veinglory 07-06-2011, 06:22 PM:

Originally Posted by Carradee View Post
I've not reached a point to have enough titles available to test this for myself, but my understanding is that "You must use the returns system" is a myth (except for accepting returns for flawed goods).

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My understanding comes from people in charge of ordering books (one form Borders, one from B and N, and one from a a university book store). If they cannot return the book they swallow the cost as a complete loss. This makes them look bad. If you can stock the store with loss-proof versus loss-possible stock even I can see which a manager would choose. Exceptions get made, but not routinely.

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Originally Posted by Veinglory 07-06-2011, 06:27 PM:

Out of curiosity I was going to look up a DWS book on Borders to see how many stores he got it into with no returns. Can someone give me a title? I am having trouble spotting any that are not commercially published.

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Originally posted by HapiSofi 07-07-2011, 03:03 AM:

Originally Posted by JSSchley View Post
To get picked up by someone like B&N and even many indie bookstores, your book has to be orderable (I'm making a new word) through a distributor who offers discounts and returns, the same terms on which the store orders all its other books.

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This is true for any bookstore that isn't shelving a few of your books as a personal favor to you (which is the distribution equivalent of having your mom buy a copy of your book). Bookstores have to process a lot of copies. They don't have the time or manpower to deal with an already marginal book that has to have special handling at every step of the way.

You want to be your own publisher? Fine. Do what publishers do: offer standard discounts, take returns, or pay to have your book distributed by a firm that will do those things for you.

The second issue is will they. In a chain bookstore, books live and die by their sales numbers.

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I know corporate-level chain buyers, and they really live by their numbers -- they get constant feedback and are constantly judged on how their buying decisions work out. That's why they're the most intractable gatekeepers in publishing: they have the shortest feedback loop between their decisions, and the book-buying public who are the ultimate source of Yes and No.

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Originally Posted by Carradee
I've not reached a point to have enough titles available to test this for myself, but my understanding is that "You must use the returns system" is a myth (except for accepting returns for flawed goods).

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You're wrong. If you don't want to believe that, I'll give you the same answer Mephistopheles gave Faust: "Then think so, till experience change your mind."

For example, Dean Wesley Smith talks about it here. (Yes, he's an author—but he also ran a publishing company at one point, and he's evidently getting his self-published books ordered by indie bookstores now.) If you read through his blog, he even points to the discount system he uses (which at 11+ books is 45% off cover price + free standard shipping).

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You misunderstood what he was saying. Go back and read it again. Those aren't unique discounts that only he offers. Those are the standard discounts that all publishers offer.

I've known bookstore employees who called the entire returns policy silly, but they weren't going to say no to any who offered them such a singularly beneficial policy. Because that's who the policy benefits: the bookstore. Not the publisher.

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Here's the ground-level truth: After your printed and bound books leave the manufacturing plant, the first entity that pays money in order to receive them is the individual retail customer who buys one at their local bookstore. All the transactions prior to that are handled on a rotating credit basis: so many books received, shipped, sold, returned, reshipped, sold, returned in unsaleable condition, ad infinitum.

You and your friends at the bookstore have figured out that this system isn't easy on publishers? Well, no kidding.

A publisher I know tells a story about a distributor in North Dakota who didn't buy fuel to heat his warehouse in the winter. He'd installed one of those industrial furnaces that can process any fuel you throw at it, so when winter came he just increased his orders. You could argue that cartons of books make expensive heating fuel, but he didn't have to pay for them.

Are you old enough to remember the Savings & Loan Crisis? If you are, you may recall that a lot of that lost money went into bad loans on commercial real estate projects, many of which were ill-advised malls and shopping centers. Back then, more books were published as mass-market paperbacks than any other format, and most of them got sold by small chain bookstores (Waldenbooks and B. Dalton, mostly) located in malls and shopping centers.

After the S&L crash the money stopped flowing, and a lot of those bad retail developments dried up and blew away. So did other retail in their area that was having to compete for too few customers. Many of those little chain bookstores shut down -- and when they did, every mass-market book in them, including all the unopened cartons in the back rooms, was strippable for credit. That meant they didn't have to be shipped back. The bookstore just signed an affidavit stating that the books had been destroyed.

Those returns hit the mass-market publishers like a tsunami. There were smart, well-run companies whose overall average returns were up around 85%.

The third story, the PGW bankruptcy, I'm going to give you as links:

Radio Free PGW, Publishers Group West, 1976-2007.
Literary Kicks, The Bankrupting of Publishers Group West.
SFGate.com, A Financial Thriller in the Publishing World.
Richard Grossinger/North Atlantic Press,Crises 4: The PGW Bankruptcy.
Salon, The Struggle for Independents.
Washington Post, Bankruptcy Jolts Indie Publishers.

You fancy yourself as a publisher? This is what brick-and-mortar trade publishing is all about. You ship product, you take returns, and you think dark thoughts about your distributors. You're at the mercy of a long chain of people and companies that don't know you from Adam, and everyone's at the mercy of the readers.

*shrugs* I also know of Christian presses that don't use the returns system, and they get their books stocked by Christian bookstores.

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I don't. Get the facts, give us the specifics, or it doesn't fly.

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Originally posted by Carradee 07-08-2011, 07:58 PM:

Read what I actually wrote, please.

Originally Posted by Carradee
For example, Dean Wesley Smith talks about it here. (Yes, he's an author—but he also ran a publishing company at one point, and he's evidently getting his self-published books ordered by indie bookstores now.)

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(bold added).

See it now? I was specifically referring to indie bookstores.

Originally Posted by HapiSofi
You misunderstood what he was saying. Go back and read it again. Those aren't unique discounts that only he offers. Those are the standard discounts that all publishers offer.

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No, you misunderstood me. I referenced the discounts as a side comment to encourage those interested to go see what Dean says for himself rather than ask me to repeat what he said when that wasn't even my point.

Here's my point: some folks disagree about returns being necessary, which may or may not be connected to particular niche markets.

Originally Posted by HapiSofi
I don't. Get the facts, give us the specifics, or it doesn't fly.

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Listing specifics would make obvious where I live. I hide where I live for safety reasons, because I don't want a close relative to end up dead. That isn't an exaggeration.

I also don't have permission from my sources to list the specifics I do have, which would make listing those specifics a breach of etiquette. (A breach here, anyway; I realize that etiquette varies with region.)

And, since my point was that some folks believe that accepting returns is unnecessary to get into indie bookstores, and that it may or may not be specifically the case for certain niche markets. Specific data would be asking for an argument, anyway; which isn't what I wanted. I'm bringing up a point, not trying to prove it beyond all doubt.

Now does that make sense?

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Originally posted by willietheshakes 07-08-2011, 08:12 PM:

Originally Posted by Carradee
And, since my point was that some folks believe that accepting returns is unnecessary to get into indie bookstores, and that it may or may not be specifically the case for certain niche markets. Specific data would be asking for an argument, anyway; which isn't what I wanted. I'm bringing up a point, not trying to prove it beyond all doubt.

Now does that make sense?

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While I can't speak for ALL indie booksellers (see the "indie"), I CAN speak for mine, for which I do the self-pub buying: if it's non-returnable, I don't even look at it, let alone consider bringing it in. Period.

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Originally posted by mscelina 07-08-2011, 08:18 PM:

Agreed. It all goes down to the same bottom line: profit margin.

So the chances of making it into a brick and mortar bookstore like Barnes and Noble are virtually nil. Even for Dean Wesley Smith.

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Originally posted by veinglory 07-08-2011, 09:21 PM:

Okay, yes, you can get some non-returnable books into indue and special stores, that was stated from the very beginning. However even they may require a consignment copy.

I believe OP was asking about widespread distribution=chain stores. Chain stores increasingly don't even have a manager let alone a buyer. If they have a buyer s/he likely uses a computer system that will not order outside of standard terms.

I had a *hell* of a time getting local chain stores to order my book under standard terms because it happens to be POD--and the higher ups kept cancelling the order on the mistaken assumption the book was not returnable.

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Originally posted by HapiSofi on 07-10-2011 03:49 AM:

Originally Posted by Carradee
Read what I actually wrote, please.

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But I did. I'm rather good at reading. You'd almost think I did that sort of thing for a living.

(Carradee quotes irrelevant bit about Dean Smith.)​

See it now? I was specifically referring to indie bookstores.

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Do you not understand that the need to offer standard discounts and make your books returnable applies to independent bookstores too? The only difference is that indies are theoretically capable of making an exception. It doesn't mean they want to, or that they'll do it for you, or that they'll think kindly of you for asking. It's a considerable inconvenience to them.

Furthermore, what you were "specifically referring to" wasn't returnability; it was offering standard discounts. They aren't the same thing. You mistook DWS's discussion of standard discounts for special discounts he'd come up with on his own.

No, you misunderstood me. I referenced the discounts as a side comment to encourage those interested to go see what Dean says for himself rather than ask me to repeat what he said when that wasn't even my point.

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You're not fooling anyone, you know.

Insisting that you're right when you aren't is a very bad habit. In the short run, it makes you look ridiculous. In the long run, it can ruin your life. For your own sake, I sincerely hope you'll knock it off.

Here's my point: some folks disagree about returns being necessary, which may or may not be connected to particular niche markets.

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I don't care. You're still wrong. If these "some folks" of yours exist, they're wrong too. And if you think I'm going to keep trying to persuade you, think again. I don't care whether your books get into bookstores. If you care about it, offer standard discounts and make them returnable.

Or don't. It's up to you.

*shrugs* I also know of Christian presses that don't use the returns system, and they get their books stocked by Christian bookstores.​

I don't. Get the facts, give us the specifics, or it doesn't fly.​

Listing specifics would make obvious where I live. I hide where I live for safety reasons, because I don't want a close relative to end up dead. That isn't an exaggeration.

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Malarkey. Among other things, you put your name and address on your copyright filing. Publishers aren't anonymous.

Besides, if there really are nogoodniks out there who are so insanely motivated to track down you and/or your relative that they're cross-correlating all mentions of bookstores in obscure online discussions, on the off-chance that you'll be one of the people in that discussion, they'll be able to recognize you under the pseudonym, and the cross-correlated bookstore locations will reveal where you're living, then give up now, because they're going to find you.

I also don't have permission from my sources to list the specifics I do have, which would make listing those specifics a breach of etiquette. (A breach here, anyway; I realize that etiquette varies with region.)

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B*llsh*t. It's not a secret which books by which publishers are on sale in which bookstores. If I phone and ask them, they'll tell me. There's also an online database that will tell me. It's not open access, but it's neither expensive nor exclusive, and a lot of people use it.

And, since my point was that some folks believe that accepting returns is unnecessary to get into indie bookstores, and that it may or may not be specifically the case for certain niche markets. Specific data would be asking for an argument, anyway; which isn't what I wanted. I'm bringing up a point, not trying to prove it beyond all doubt.

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The point is still wrong, still irrelevant, still unsubstantiated, and now has even less credibility than it did last time you trotted it out.

If you don't want to have an argument, shut up and stop arguing. As long as you're still pumping out erroneous information in this public forum, I and others will keep telling you that it's wrong.

Now does that make sense?

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Sorry, no. It's the same nonsense, just at greater length.

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Originally posted by scope 07-10-2011 06:59 AM:

Originally Posted by Carradee
I've known bookstore employees who called the entire returns policy silly, but they weren't going to say no to any who offered them such a singularly beneficial policy. Because that's who the policy benefits: the bookstore. Not the publisher.

*shrugs* I also know of Christian presses that don't use the returns system, and they get their books stocked by Christian bookstores.

Click to expand...

These "bookstore employees" are the ones who are silly.

The majority of books found in a brick and mortar bookstore would never be bought and stocked if there wasn't a return policy. Or, at best, a bookstore would only by one copy of most books since they coudn't risk losing money. The entire publisher/bookstore system was built on a bookstores ability to buy books and have the right to return them. Accordingly, to do so is a necessity for publishers and bookstores, not a "singularly beneficial policy". The idea for both publishers and bookstores is that bookstores sell books and turn a profit. If you eliminated a return policy you would have to develop an entirely new system.

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The archives continued:

Originally posted by BenPanced 07-10-2011 07:15 AM:

Originally Posted by Carradee
*shrugs* I also know of Christian presses that don't use the returns system, and they get their books stocked by Christian bookstores.

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From what I've heard and read, Christian presses and bookstores operate outside the realm of mainstream publishing and have their own set of "rules" so it might not be a fair comparison. I could be remembering incorrectly, though.

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Originally posted by HapiSofi 07-10-2011 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by scope
The majority of books found in a brick and mortar bookstore would never be bought and stocked if there wasn't a return policy. Or, at best, a bookstore would only by one copy of most books since they coudn't risk losing money. The entire publisher/bookstore system was built on a bookstores ability to buy books and have the right to return them. Accordingly, to do so is a necessity for publishers and bookstores, not a "singularly beneficial policy". The idea for both publishers and bookstores is that bookstores sell books and turn a profit. If you eliminated a return policy you would have to develop an entirely new system.

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There's the truth in a nutshell. The trade books whole-copy returns system, in which bookstores can at any time return unsold books for credit, shifts all the risk onto the publisher. Bookstores can take a chance on a book without having to worry that they'll get stuck with unsold copies.

Bookstores still don't want to take books that are unbudgeable turkeys, because they have to make sales that will bring their customers back again for more. Returns just make it less risky to try something new and different.

Originally Posted by BenPanced
From what I've heard and read, Christian presses and bookstores operate outside the realm of mainstream publishing and have their own set of "rules" so it might not be a fair comparison. I could be remembering incorrectly, though.

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Christian bookstores inhabit their own complicated bookselling universe. But no matter how different they may be, I have faith that transferring risk to the booksellers by not offering returns will not make their orders more generous, more adventurous, or more likely to include marginal titles.

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Originally posted by Deirdre 07-11-2011 01:57 PM:

When I worked in a bookstore, they'd consider consignments of self-published work in limited categories, one of which was poetry. Other self-published stuff wasn't considered due to general quality control issues and high rate of returns.

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Originally posted by Mac H. 07-11-2011 03:02 PM:

Originally Posted by Carradee
Listing specifics would make obvious where I live. I hide where I live for safety reasons, because I don't want a close relative to end up dead. That isn't an exaggeration.

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You've listed an address (along with your real name) on the copyright registration for the book in your signature.

It literally took under 40 seconds of searching to find it.

It also isn't relevant to the debate - naming the policies of Christian Publishers doesn't give your location .. it just shows you've researched a market.

I'm not sure what the argument is really about - the original statement was basically "I haven't tried this myself, but my understanding is ...".

So what if the understanding is wrong? That is why you bring up the subject in a conversation with the disclaimer "I haven't tried this myself .. but I heard ..."

It's just part of a normal conversation. We don't have to particularly defend a particular decision - just learn from each other.

Good luck,

Mac
(In the interest of fair play, my full legal name, address, employer etc is also findable. Most Australian writers have registered a business number at some point because it's needed on a form to get a grant - so it is on the ABN database at http://abr.business.gov.au From there you can get my address (via the online phone book ... http://whitepages.com.au ) or via the voter registration if I had a silent number. (Voter registration info is also public .. although you have to turn up in person at the state library to read the physical printout .. it isn't online. If the person has made their voter registration details private it is still findable ... just turn up to vote on voting day and give the name you are looking for. They'll look it up in front of you and you can read off the address ... as long as you can read upside down.)

So tracing it online would take about 2 minutes to get from this message board entry to my name, address, phone number, a previous address, etc . Or possibly less if you had all the sites bookmarked .. or was hyped up on coffee. The feeling of being anonymous online is just an illusion - and we are safer once we recognise that.

As an aside, a friend put a photo of themself up on facebook and challenged people to identify where in the world it was taken. It took only a few minutes to track down the exact location - even though facebook strips out the exif data. )

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I got my self-pubbed books into area indie stores by negotiating a separate deal with each one. They were receptive because they're willing to help out local authors. The chains, on the other hand, don't want to know you. The paperwork and follow-up of dealing with individual bookstores wasn't worth the trouble, in my view, and I just let the inventories run out. My books are orderable at all bookstores and I do see some sales from that route. Otherwise, I've achieved considerable success selling via Kindle and that's the route on which I now concentrate -- ebooks.