knife fighting?

Hi, I was born and raised in Montana. I wasn't a cowboy, just a farm kid, but I've worked some on horseback.

It's your story, and you know the situation best, but I'm surprised your character doesn't carry a knife of his own, if not a short sword. A stout knife is almost indispensable for tack repairs and other things. I wouldn't think about riding out without one.

Don't know the situation, but if your MC got hold of a horseshoe damage would be done.

Not that I'm a violent chap or anything, but a crack on the head with a horseshoe would seem quite sore.

Regards

Whacko

I know nothing about knife fighting in specific but, from what I know about swordplay, movies will give you a very silly idea about how a fight works.

If someone is really determined to do some damage with a knife, there's not much you can do. Best thing to do is to wrap something [a coat, blanket] around the non-knife arm and use that as a shield to catch the opponent's blade. Or use something like a chair to keep the opponent at more than arm's length by pinning him with the legs of the chair.

I've been in knifefights and it's close to impossible not to get cut. Even if one gets fatally stabbed, there's a distinct possibility that the attacker doesn't get away unscathed and could also die from his wounds.

You might want to change the title of the thread though -- a knife fight would be close quarter combat, not hand to hand, which by definition means unarmed.

Definitely don't watch movies for how to do a knife fight. Especially for the guy with the knife! No knife fighter lifts their arm into the air to stab someone with a downward thrust. Just doesn't happen. Mainly because it exposes him to counter-attack.

Knife fights tend to be close up. Which is why AA is right. Keep the guy with the knife as far away as possible.

There are films with accurate knife-fighting, but they are really scarce.

Experienced knife-fighters will not flash their knives or weave them about. If I were to stab anyone, he'd notice my knife when it's hilt deep inside his body.

Nianne said:

Thanks guys.

Ultimately I want the guy to be able to de-escalate the situation without anyone being seriously hurt, so it's good to know what he would really be thinking/worrying about before he can accomplish that.

How do you hold a knife so that the person you're facing doesn't notice it? I think I've seen on movies where the guy had it held kinda back-handed, so the blade was running behind the line of his arm, and then to use it he kinda stuck out his elbow to bring the knife forward. Is that right?

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There's a style of fighting like that, but remember that it's your world. He can just have the knife concealed without you tying it to his fighting style.

You said he had a hoof pick - which you would have in your hands if you were picking the horse's hooves. What in particular is the MC doing? WHERE is the fight taking place? On the trail? In a barn?

He might have a hoof knife handy. Razor sharp on one edge, kinda curved, no point.

He could wrap a saddle blanket over one arm to fend off the thrusts. Depending on his disposition, he could just keep avoiding the guy - OR close and grapple, which is very risky.

I know someone said not to watch a movie for a knife fight scene, but the movie The Hunted, is the best and most detailed knife fighting scenes. It even shows what happens when someone lifts their arm for a downward strike, in this movie for example, the guy lifting his arm (Tommy Lee Jones) gets a knife driven through his upper arm.

Knife fighting has varied greatly through out the times. If your novel is set in Medival times, then you might look into historic figures of that time who were combatants. Most of the time there's a book or two out there that detail their style of fighting.

Otherwise, I'd say Kali and Filipeno Martial Arts are the two best knife fighting martial arts out there. As for the question about the horseshoe pick as a weapon, hell yes it can be. As for the horseshoe itself as a weapon, it'd only hurt if it was attached to something like a rope and swung violently. Otherwise a horseshoe is pretty hard to use as a weapon while either holding it in your hand and beating someone or throwing it.

Yes it'd hurt like hell, but it really wouldn't do much. A horseshoe used for the game however would do major damage, but that wouldn't be logical.

I'm sorry I can't give more advice, Medival fighting isn't something I know a lot about. Knife fighting I've trained in with military friends, not Kali, but military styled.

these are some rescued medieval martial forms involving daggers. You said he was experience so its likely he would be familiar with some of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgXFLacKxR0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR9dfAUGtUI

And this one is some free fighting, though its a bit more silly at moments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr5Xqnalplg

My gut reaction was, "Whuh. Knife fights are very bad."

Just try googling "knife fight wounds" with safe search off. Actually, don't unless your stomach is made of steel. If someone wants to do damage to you with a knife, it's my belief that it's not possible to walk away without a scratch. If the opponent wants to kill your MC, and you said the opponent is vicious, then I'm afraid you're thinking of this too much like a duel. Realistically, it's going to be straight up attempts to kill.

This site was interesting and if half of what he says is true, it's worth reading http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifelies.html

I could, in a crisis, draw and deploy a knife in just over one second. ... And yet, despite this incredible rate of speed, when attacked I didn't have time to draw my knife except for the one time that I leaped wildly backwards to gain space.

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As far as your attacker is concerned this is not a fight, it is an assassination.

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What few people realize is that a wild defensive flailing while holding a knife, is just as dangerous and damaging as an intentional strike. In fact, it is often more dangerous because of its unpredictable nature.

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All a guy has to do is cut you a few times to seriously reduce your ability to move and then wait while you bleed out.

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What amazes me is that some people can talk about the damage that their knife will do to an attacker, but at the same time blurt out the old clich?of "expect to get cut" as though getting cut were only a minor inconvenience.

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Knives will mess you up fast.

Guardian said:

This site was interesting and if half of what he says is true, it's worth reading http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifelies.html

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A lot of what he says supports my earlier statements:

However, if you are dealing with anyone with any experience, street savvy or cunning, you will not be able to draw your own blade when you are attacked. Against such a person, there is just not enough time. He won't show his weapon before he attacks. That's because those who are foolish enough to brandish weapons in places where weapons are common don't live long themselves.

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And I do agree with his statement that there is no 'knife fight'. I every 'knife fight' I was in, I didn't realize there was a knife involved until halfway down or even after the fight.

In other words, I was incredibly lucky to have survived some fights.

gan_naire said:

I know someone said not to watch a movie for a knife fight scene, but the movie The Hunted, is the best and most detailed knife fighting scenes. It even shows what happens when someone lifts their arm for a downward strike, in this movie for example, the guy lifting his arm (Tommy Lee Jones) gets a knife driven through his upper arm.

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First thing I thought of when I read the OP's post, The Hunted.

To the OP: Rent the movie. Oh yeah, and don't go near AmsterdamAssassin unarmed.

WriteMinded said:

First thing I thought of when I read the OP's post, The Hunted.

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Not a 'bad' movie, but the knife fighting, while more realistic than in most movies, isn't 'real'. A real encounter with a knife wielding person who's out to kill you doesn't resemble a fight, it's more akin to a slaughter.

WriteMinded said:

Oh yeah, and don't go near AmsterdamAssassin unarmed.

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Armed or unarmed, doesn't really matter. What's more important is to maintain proper distance and not to give me any reason to become hostile.

The movie is still the best knife fight sequences I've ever seen. What makes the movie interesting is you see what a knife expert can do to someone (even when they have a gun) who isn't experienced with knives. But it's also pretty good because you see what an experienced knife fighter can do up against another experienced knife fighter. Makes for a damn good movie.

As for realism, it's always simple, put a weapon of any kind in the hands of someone who is either experienced, desperate to live, or just bat sh*t crazy, and the odds against the other person living or walking away unscathed drop dramatically. Even if one of them has a gun, a person who can throw a knife underhanded or even sideways, can still have the upper hand.

But that's the beauty of fiction, it doesn't have to be proven by professionals or scientists to make sense, you just have to make it believable. One of the funniest things I've read where someone was killed was by the guy being hit over the head with a typewritter. Dead serious. It sounds like something one could survive, not walk away from, but still be able to survive. But the way it was told in the book, made it obvious to the reader that it was a fatal blow and the guy died then and there.

gan_naire said:

One of the funniest things I've read where someone was killed was by the guy being hit over the head with a typewritter. Dead serious. It sounds like something one could survive, not walk away from, but still be able to survive.

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I dunno. Every typewriter fight I've been in -- every single one of 'em -- has been fatal. The key is to keep tabs on your opponent, shift a lot, and give him no backspace.

Chase said:

I dunno, every typewriter fight I've been in -- every single one of 'em -- has been fatal. The key is to keep tabs on your opponent, shift a lot, and give him no backspace.

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But it takes a keyboard to really home in on him and delete him.

I dunno. Some of those old typewriters were damn heavy!

Nianne said:

When it does come to a confrontation, what is he really afraid of? The idea I'm getting from this thread is: don't let the crazy-looking guy with a knife into range.

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Exactly. And make sure it's not a knife-throwing crazy, 'cause that will mess up your range assessments.

There are no shortages of medieval fighting treatise on line and I would encourage you to at least glance at some of them. The style of combat in the middle ages was impressive and elaborate--frequently in ways most people don't realize. It's soooo much cooler than how it looks in most movies.

Many of the treatise have knife techniques, and others demonstrate postures and defenses that would work with knife as well as sword. Off the top of my head, I know both Joachim Meyer and Hans Talhoffer have significant dagger sections in their treatise, and both are available on-line with a simple search. You can also order excellent translations of them in print (I can make recommendations, if you'd like).

If I was at home I could give you a bunch of links. PM me if you want them or want me to post them here. Google will show you most of them, though.

If you have specific questions feel free to holler at me. I've been studying that stuff for a long time.

You can also head over to Sword Forum International and ask around there. There's a giant medieval combat section.

G