Google Baby: Outsourcing pregnancy

aruna · Jun 7, 2011

I just watched this Channel 4 Documentary. It seems it's avaialable in the US at HBO.
Anyone else seen it? If not -- it's quite a long documentary, but well worth watching to the end.

Globalisation and the internet are making it easier to have a baby.
Israeli entrepreneur Doron proposes a new service: pregnancy producing. His customers can select their preferred sperm and eggs online, with surrogacy outsourced to India.
Multiple embryos are produced, frozen and packed before being shipped to India to be implanted in the wombs of local surrogates. After nine months, the customers can collect their babies.
Technology has turned 'making a baby' into an act independent of sex, and globalisation is making it affordable: all you need is a credit card and internet access. But what are the ethical and moral complications?

aruna · Jun 7, 2011

In the meantime, here's an article and interview on the topic.

Following the new big business of unregulated, international surrogacy, “Google Baby” goes to places both familiar and foreign, tracing the strange supply and demand of baby production. If those words sound cold, consider that many of the parents applying for international surrogates are desperate for their own children, and see this as their only affordable means. Consider also that this desperation has resulted in a worldwide market, where sperm and eggs from various donors (American, European, Asian) are implanted into women in India, with parents arriving to pick up their newborns some 10 months later.

From the interview with director Zippi Brand Frank:

How do you, personally, feel about outsourced surrogacy now that you have seen the details of the business? Do you think that parents getting the children they so desperately want makes this process a viable one? Is it, as Dr. Patel says, “one woman helping another”?
I can understand those who see the outsourcing of surrogacy to India, for a fraction of the price of western surrogates, as exploitation. However, after having spent considerable time in India, I am more inclined to accept Dr. Patel’s point of view and her feminist agenda as she perceives it. Dr. Patel believes that for these rural women in India, surrogacy is almost the only way to make a life-changing move. They are transforming their lives and the lives of their families and children by making education and/or housing a viable option. I endeavored to keep any personal judgment on my part out of the movie. People tend to have strong opinions on these issues, and what is perceived as salvation to some, is viewed as diabolic by others.

Fruitbat · Jun 7, 2011

I haven't seen the documentary. It does have quite a creepy feel to it. A couple of thoughts though:

(1) Maybe it's not the worst thing to happen when, all else aside, a truly wanted baby is still brought into the world.

(2) I think when privileged people discuss what is best for grossly disadvantaged ones, we tend to miss the fact that they don't have any good options. Is it right to take away an opportunity that, in these women's own estimation, greatly improves their lot? And if so, is anybody who involves themselves in that going to replace it with a better option?

In other words, in practical terms, is exploitation better than no exploitation if they end up better off for it?

Gretad08 · Jun 7, 2011

If you're using someone else's sperm and egg already why not just adopt? I guess they're cherry picking certain traits they want.

kuwisdelu · Jun 7, 2011

The headline is misleading. This has nothing to do with Google.

aruna · Jun 7, 2011

It's the name of the movie.

kuwisdelu · Jun 7, 2011

aruna said:
It's the name of the movie.

Well then the name of the movie is misleading. :tongue

aruna · Jun 7, 2011

I guess it refers to the ability to google your sperm and egg donor and then apply online for your custom-made baby!

JimmyB27 · Jun 7, 2011

Gretad08 said:
If you're using someone else's sperm and egg already why not just adopt?

This.

At least their paying for it themselves, I guess.

Fruitbat · Jun 7, 2011

They are probably mostly white and want babies who are the same, honestly. The Indian mother is probably wanted as an incubator only, eek. Also I'd think if they can, they use their own sperm and/or eggs. Demand for healthy white newborns far exceeds supply. They are hard to get. That's why foreign adoption is so popular in the first place.

Don · Jun 7, 2011

Amazing that technology has brought to the common man what was only the province of Kings in days past.

I've seen this played out in several SF stories, with varying results; it certainly isn't surprising to see the market develop.

I hope it can stay aboveground. If it gets outlawed it would be a perfect market for the same gangs that run sex slave rings today. But I expect we'll see calls to outlaw it any day, from somebody.

kuwisdelu · Jun 7, 2011

Don said:
I hope it can stay aboveground. If it gets outlawed it would be a perfect market for the same gangs that run sex slave rings today. But I expect we'll see calls to outlaw it any day, from somebody.

Would you support regulation?

Don · Jun 7, 2011

kuwisdelu said:
Would you support regulation?

Which kind, the barrier-to-entry kind, the ensconce-state-of-the-art kind, the protect-producers-from-consumers kind, the raise-funds-for-administering kind, or the common-sense-that-will-arise-as-best-practices-anyway kind?

And until there's at least a bit of history, who can define that last category anyway?

And there's always the chance that the situations that arise are already covered by existing laws. I don't see a clear-cut case for regulation yet, even if one favors regulation.

Alpha Echo · Jun 7, 2011

This reminds me a recent conversation I had with my husband and one of our friends.

We were talking about stem cell research. I stated that I'm all for it so far as curing disease and helping to make sure a fetus is not going to be born with a disease.

But, I don't like the notion that one day, people will be choosing all the physical and mental attributes of their child before the child is born - the color of their eyes and hair, whether he's better in math or the arts, his height, etc. That is scary and to me, crosses a line.

Our friend said that line was crossed when abortion was made legal.

I think this outsourcing thing is horrific and scary and crosses a line.

But I guess we've already crossed the line.

CACTUSWENDY · Jun 7, 2011

What I find interesting is that there is nothing....nothing, that can not be outsourced. Let your mind run wild.

If they use my egg and my husbands sperm.....I guess I see no problem with it. If a sperm bank and an egg bank are used....then I might have some other thoughts about it.

.....................just nothing ......................

Charlee · Jun 7, 2011

This is a little creepy...

However I have know peopel that struggle to have a baby and could see that if given this option it would be hard to turn down because of ethical reasons when you want a baby so badly...

icerose · Jun 7, 2011

I worry the most about the kids honestly. I'm sure there will be many wonderful family's spawned from this, but there will also be families who thought a mail order baby would be just the thing to fix whatever is wrong with their lives and when they find that the kid actually takes work and isn't the source of complete and endless joy without effort...granted this happens anyway.

At the end of the day I don't see anything inherently evil or wrong with it, just that there's a lot of unwanted kids out there already. Then again there have also been plenty of adoption agencies that have pulled some pretty shady crap and have purposely given out "broken" kids that they knew it would be impossible for the average family to raise or knew the kid would break apart and smash anything good due to past experiences and mental issues but sent them out anyway and washed their hands of it not caring what kind of damage they did to both the kids and the families. Not to mention fetal alcohol syndrom which can be rampant among adoption babies, it doesn't surprise me that parents would go for not only the safer but the cheaper bet as well.

Hard to see black and white when you've seen so many grey shades.

muravyets · Jun 7, 2011

Well, I disagree that the line was crossed with the legalization of abortion, but I will admit to being conflicted about this.

First I have to struggle a little to separate my own moral/ethical beliefs from what I think should be enforceable on other people.

Then, I have to view the remaining thicket of potential squickiness and try to figure out what points are clear enough to address, and that's even harder.

To try to focus on just one for now, there is a line between people freely choosing to participate in a system, and people being exploited by that system. It's hard to tell if this idea crosses that line now, but I have to say that, in a world where exploitation to the point of near (or actual) slavery is not only common but traditional in hundreds of industries, in which the affluent first world profits from the oppression of third world workers, I just do not trust the people who would be using this google baby thing. I just don't.

aruna · Jun 7, 2011

muravyets said:
To try to focus on just one for now, there is a line between people freely choosing to participate in a system, and people being exploited by that system. It's hard to tell if this idea crosses that line now, but I have to say that, in a world where exploitation to the point of near (or actual) slavery is not only common but traditional in hundreds of industries, in which the affluent first world profits from the oppression of third world workers, I just do not trust the people who would be using this google baby thing. I just don't.

This. I can't quite formulate my reasons; maybe the ethical issue just escapes reason altogether. But it creeps me out, tbh. Especially since the Indian surrogates would never do this if they were not a) desperate and b) egged on or even forced to by their husbands.

One could say the future parents are equally desperate (for a baby) but I hate the idea of "you can have whatever you want" just by waving a credit card. In the showdown between the entitled and the deprived, I know whose side I'm on.

If one just watched the first five minutes -- the birth of the baby -- the look on that "mother's" face as it is taken away. It's heartbreaking. Even if the baby is not genetically hers.

regdog · Jun 7, 2011

It's as bad as Beautifulpeople.com offering fertility services so you can have a beautiful baby

muravyets · Jun 7, 2011

Aruna: Yeah, that was one of the personal ethical issues I was trying to filter out. I happen to be personally against the whole "you can have whatever you can pay for" attitude of personal entitlement that seems to infect the affluent. I have no problem with fertility science. I think it's a good thing in many ways. But when I look at the numbers of poor in the world, and the numbers of unadopted, uncared for kids in the world, I have a real problem with the fertility industry and, frankly, the people who use it. I try to suppress that, but still, I can't help wondering why it's so damned important for them to reproduce. After all, no matter how much they engineer their perfect little angel, it's still going to be a stranger to them, a totally separate person, not a Mini-Me extension of themselves.

But that's just me.

icerose · Jun 7, 2011

muravyets said:
Aruna: Yeah, that was one of the personal ethical issues I was trying to filter out. I happen to be personally against the whole "you can have whatever you can pay for" attitude of personal entitlement that seems to infect the affluent. I have no problem with fertility science. I think it's a good thing in many ways. But when I look at the numbers of poor in the world, and the numbers of unadopted, uncared for kids in the world, I have a real problem with the fertility industry and, frankly, the people who use it. I try to suppress that, but still, I can't help wondering why it's so damned important for them to reproduce. After all, no matter how much they engineer their perfect little angel, it's still going to be a stranger to them, a totally separate person, not a Mini-Me extension of themselves.

But that's just me.

Don't underestimate the deeply embedded and driving need to see the future of the species continue. Most people don't even think about it and if they don't have problems conceiving don't bat an eyelash. But those who CANNOT conceive do not automatically come without that deep need and drive.

Just because you might not have the driving need and desire to have a kid, does not mean that a good portion of the population also don't have it. And if they can't get it on their own, they will look for other ways to accomplish that. Even in the animal kingdom it can be observed. We raised chickens for example. One hen's clutch didn't hatch but one of our peahens had a clutch that hatched just fine. But she was gone eating when the clutch hatched and the hen swooped in and was there when they did hatch.

There was a fight between these two over these chicks for weeks until the chicks were old enough to decide who their real mom was. So if even chickens can have those driving needs, why do you think humans can totally escape it?

And not everyone who desperately wants kids wants a mini-me or extension of self. It's a ridiculous notion that most people do not carry.

Most people I know who have gone through fertility treatment would have never done so if they could have had children any other way.

muravyets · Jun 7, 2011

That's why I try to separate that personal view of mine from my critique of issues such as this, icerose. That's one of the moral/ethical beliefs that I hold very strongly but which I don't necessarily think can be or should be applied to anyone else.

ETA: By the way, I did not say that everyone who wants to have a baby just wants a Mini-Me extension of themselves.

JimmyB27 · Jun 7, 2011

icerose said:
Don't underestimate the deeply embedded and driving need to see the future of the species continue. Most people don't even think about it and if they don't have problems conceiving don't bat an eyelash. But those who CANNOT conceive do not automatically come without that deep need and drive.

Just because you might not have the driving need and desire to have a kid, does not mean that a good portion of the population also don't have it. And if they can't get it on their own, they will look for other ways to accomplish that. Even in the animal kingdom it can be observed. We raised chickens for example. One hen's clutch didn't hatch but one of our peahens had a clutch that hatched just fine. But she was gone eating when the clutch hatched and the hen swooped in and was there when they did hatch.

There was a fight between these two over these chicks for weeks until the chicks were old enough to decide who their real mom was. So if even chickens can have those driving needs, why do you think humans can totally escape it?

And not everyone who desperately wants kids wants a mini-me or extension of self. It's a ridiculous notion that most people do not carry.

Most people I know who have gone through fertility treatment would have never done so if they could have had children any other way.

There are more than six billion people in the world. I don't think we're going extinct through lack of breeding any time soon.
And if they're that desperate for a kid, why not adopt one of the many, many kids desperate for a home?

muravyets · Jun 7, 2011

By the way, in the chicken example, that was a case of one hen trying to take over another hen's chicks, i.e. adopt. Perhaps the urge to raise offspring is different from the urge to produce offspring?

Google Baby: Outsourcing pregnancy

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