Whites Believe As Blacks Gain, They Lose

nighttimer · May 25, 2011

Today in the magic land of sweetness and light known as Post-Racial America, a new study indicates some of us aren't feeling so post-racially.

It's a phenomenon that any observer of modern U.S. politics senses, but now we have a study documenting it: Despite all the evidence to the contrary, white Americans believe that African Americans' social progress in society is coming at their expense.

A new study conducted by a couple of professors at Harvard Business School and Tufts University reports that "whites believe that racism against whites has increased significantly, as racism against blacks has decreased."

The report, published in the May edition of peer-reviewed Perspectives on Psychological Science, is based on a nationwide survey of 208 blacks and 209 whites who were chosen as a representative demographic sample of the wider U.S.' population of whites and blacks, said Tuft's Associate Professor of Psychology Sam Sommers.

Sommers argues that their study puts to rest the notion that Barack Obama's election as president means that we all now live in a "post-racial society."

"I would hope that this would disabuse people of the notion that race doesn't matter anymore," he said in an interview.

"What we're finding is that Americans still have very strong feelings about race."

And we're not just talking about certain members of the Tea Party.

We're talking about the underlying notion that any racial preferences -- such as affirmative action programs -- amounts to discrimination against whites, Sommers said.

He points to the Supreme Court's 2007 decision that stopped a Seattle school district from racially integrating its district by including race as a factor in school admissions policy.

Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts, who wrote the opinion, reasoned that "even though you're trying to remedy other problems, you can't solve the problem of racial discrimination by giving racial preferences of any form ... he's equating any sort of racial preference with discrimination, and I think the respondents in our survey are doing the same thing," Sommers said.

The study asked both white and black participants about their perceptions of discrimination against both their own, and the other race, in each decade between the 1950s and to the 2000s.

Though the sampling is small, it's an intriguing notion that White American feel as conditions have improved for Black Americans it has come at their expense.

What it is besides affirmative action that would lead them to believe that is the case is still unclear to me.

Gale Haut · May 25, 2011

I mean... If you lose the right to walk all over other people's rights, that's still a loss of your rights. Right?

crunchyblanket · May 25, 2011

I'm not surprised about this. It's the same story whenever the oppressed are given equal rights.

I'm about as white as can be (seriously, I glow) and I recognise that there is a difference between losing exclusivity of privilege and being discriminated against. Just because I'm no longer entitled to a job through virtue of being white doesn't mean I'm suffering discrimination.

We see this in the UK among a small number of men who feel hard done by when they lose out on a job to a woman...or the Christian who has been told they cannot discriminate against gays...or the white person who has been told it's no longer okay to say 'paki'. Immediately, they react as if they have had something taken away, when really it's just the balance being redressed.

SPMiller · May 25, 2011

A lot of people are either uneducated or willfully ignorant. Some of them think, for instance, that the economy is zero-sum. How they come by this notion, I can't say, but if you were to take it as true, it'd be easier to see how someone could believe that as one groups gains, another loses.

MattW · May 25, 2011

nighttimer said:
What it is besides affirmative action that would lead them to believe that is the case is still unclear to me.

There are a lot of people that think life is a zero sum game, and if somebody else is doing well, it's coming at their expense. And there's always someone to blame for it - offshoring jobs, the guy in the next cube who got promoted, the neighbor who buys a new car, the black family that moves into a nice white neighborhood.

Then you have the expected reactions of ignorant racists and overt racists.

William Haskins · May 25, 2011

great.

yet another page one thread slot that should have gone to a good white american...

MattW · May 25, 2011

They took our reps?

Gale Haut · May 25, 2011

The study at most is strong evidence of racial identity, groups of people who think in terms of being a part of a race. Did anyone ever think we were beyond that point--that we could ever be beyond that point? On the other hand, whether group mentalities remain hugely hostile towards each other is conjectural. Even if it's true, the study doesn't seem to do much in the way if indicating that to be the case.

I really think the way you look at this study depends on how cynical you're gonna be when you interpret this vague idea of "post-racial." If you think it means race is no longer in the public mind, then it's probably never going to be an actual thing. If you interpret it as meaning that there is a relatively equal playing field where any race can achieve as powerful a position as the presidency of the nation, I'd say we've at least gotten to that point. Which is pretty awesome IMHO.

I find myself thinking on that Lewis Aragon quote, "The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e. the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force." And I feel we've come strides and bounds from any consensus of racial superiority in the US. There is quite a lot of hope and progress, and we can see that change in our political representatives. I feel optimistic about it.

And I kind of think the study is dumb.

William Haskins · May 25, 2011

another article that actually gives some insights into how the study was conducted (and doesn't reside behind a paywall...):

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...ice_is_a_bigger_problem_than_antiblack_b.html

The report found that both races agreed anti-black prejudice declined steadily over the last 60 years, but white Americans felt that bias against them was on the upswing.

Asked to rank prejudice against blacks on a 1-10 scale in the 2000s, white respondents put the number at 3.6 - compared with 9.1 in the '50s.

But white respondents also put the number for anti-white bias at 4.7 - way up from the 1.8 of the '50s.

another interesting tidbit:

Blacks also saw an increase in anti-white bias, although in much, much smaller numbers: from 1.4 to 1.8.

Diana Hignutt · May 25, 2011

As long as we continue to see people as black or white or whatever...we all lose...

Othering never achieves positive things in this world.

crunchyblanket · May 25, 2011

It would have been useful for them to clarify what exactly 'anti-white bias' means, maybe give some examples. Otherwise it doesn't mean an awful lot; it could refer to explicit racism against whites, it could refer to the loss of white-exclusive privilege, it could be somewhere in the middle.

Rock Throwing Peasan · May 25, 2011

I can haz racecard?

Monkey · May 25, 2011

I frequently hear griping about affirmative action and how it's "prejudiced against whites," so I'm not surprised.

Has anyone else seen the "Affirmative Action bake sales" some students have been holding on campus?

(Two different schools-clicking on the pictures brings you to the story. Here's another school doing the same thing, but with no pic: http://www.thefamuanonline.com/news/controversial-cookie-sales-prompt-debate-1.2475624 )

I don't know whether to make a joke about "liberal education" or "our best and brightest."

Don · May 25, 2011

SPMiller said:
A lot of people are either uneducated or willfully ignorant. Some of them think, for instance, that the economy is zero-sum. How they come by this notion, I can't say, but if you were to take it as true, it'd be easier to see how someone could believe that as one groups gains, another loses.

MattW said:
There are a lot of people that think life is a zero sum game, and if somebody else is doing well, it's coming at their expense. And there's always someone to blame for it - offshoring jobs, the guy in the next cube who got promoted, the neighbor who buys a new car, the black family that moves into a nice white neighborhood.

Diana Hignutt said:
As long as we continue to see people as black or white or whatever...we all lose...

Othering never achieves positive things in this world.

Now put those two in the pot, and stir, and you've got a complete answer. "Leaders" on both sides do everything they can to conflate the zero-sum game of politics with civil society and the economy, both of which are synergistic environments. They also work very hard finding groups they can pit against each other, taking the pressure off themselves. If the rabble are fighting each other in the streets, they're less likely to storm the castle in any coordinated way.

Othering never achieves positive things in this world... unless you're one of the guys selling tickets to the fights.

Synovia · May 25, 2011

As a white male who has lived in several poor minority neighborhoods (humboldt park in chicago-roxbury in boston-parts of framingham,ma), I can tell you that there's plenty of racism against whites.

I can also state, in my experience, that since the economy tanked, the "its that other racial/sexual/religious group's fault" sentiment has increased.

crunchyblanket · May 25, 2011

Synovia said:
As a white male who has lived in several poor minority neighborhoods (humboldt park in chicago-roxbury in boston-parts of framingham,ma), I can tell you that there's plenty of racism against whites.

Nobody's saying there isn't. I grew up on a South East London council estate and yes, I experienced racism (although more for my gypsy blood than outright 'being white'. Everyone hates gypsies, apparently.)

Maybe it's just me, but although racism is never right, I can vaguely see why some people from ethnic minorities, having been systematically oppressed and deprived by the 'white man' over the decades, might harbour some hatred for white people. It doesn't make it right, but neither does it have the same pedigree as the white-led racism which made minorities slaves, forced them into ghettos and made affirmative action necessary in the first place.

Rock Throwing Peasan · May 25, 2011

Kurds aren't liked too much in Europe, either.

icerose · May 25, 2011

In some places it absolutely does exist. One situation was the white and hispanic firefighters who were denied their advancement for the sole reason that no black firefighter passed the exam. They eventually won their case in the supreme court.

Another example is here in Utah. It's a mostly female company. If you are applying as a white male you have no chance of getting that job. Where as everyone else has a much higher chance.

It isn't all in people's heads. I don't think any of it is right and people should stand on their own merit. But at the same time you have long standing disadvantages that some have to overcome more than others. So I can see the point of affirmative action as well.

It isn't simple or easy but it also doesn't mean that the other side of the coin doesn't exist. When certain groups start getting preference, the other groups get discriminated against. In a perfect world this wouldn't be true but we're far from a perfect world and there are plenty of discriminations on both sides to go around.

Synovia · May 25, 2011

crunchyblanket said:
Maybe it's just me, but although racism is never right, I can vaguely see why some people from ethnic minorities, having been systematically oppressed and deprived by the 'white man' over the decades, might harbour some hatred for white people. It doesn't make it right, but neither does it have the same pedigree as the white-led racism which made minorities slaves, forced them into ghettos and made affirmative action necessary in the first place.

None of which either I, or the racists assholes in these neighborhoods were alive for. Its all the same.

shadowwalker · May 25, 2011

Although I'm a little concerned with the small sample size, I can see some accuracy in the study. Don is right - the leaders of various 'power' groups have a vested interest in keeping race and race resentments active, at least under the surface. People in power have to have a scape goat.

But as to the discrimination against whites, I'm not sure. I have seen instances where it would be easy to say race was a factor in management decisions - but almost too easy. I do think that when whites state that someone of another race is a racist, it's not getting dismissed as quickly as it used to be, so it may be this that they're referencing.

crunchyblanket · May 25, 2011

Synovia said:
None of which either I, or the racists assholes in these neighborhoods were alive for. Its all the same.

But they suffer the aftereffects of those events. Just because there's no more slavery and there's a black guy in the White House doesn't mean there aren't any problems for minorities anymore. I can't speak for the USA but there are still many social and economic issues facing ethnic minorities in the UK.

bethany · May 25, 2011

During the Obama election I heard an interview on NPR with some elderly white people (keep in mind they were elderly) who were speculating that if Obama were elected they would have to step off the sidewalk for black people, the same way they had made black people step off the sidewalk years before (before civil rights I'm assuming) it was so silly, and yet very sad.

I teach in a smaller community in the south, and from time to time the "they have their own television channel (BET) they have their own award shows, they have a history month, why chan't we! argument gets raised and repeated. I know the students are repeating what they heard their parents say, who are repeating some comedian or commentator, but it's so silly, and so hard to convince them that the "rights" they are lamenting are so small in the bigger scheme of racial issues.

crunchyblanket · May 25, 2011

In the UK, this school of thought has led to the formation of groups such as the odious "English Defence League", who purport to be fighting to defend English values, English cultural identity and English ethnic purity (they don't outright state that last aim, but it's there)

Conveniently ignoring, of course, that England is in itself a mongrel nation, and that the concept of racial purity in a country where so little of the population can realistically prove their lineage to be 100% English is laughable.

What England needs defending from is no-necked knuckledragging education-dodgers like them.

What they object to is having to consider the needs and feelings of people different to them, and the obstacle this poses in their getting what they want. Well tough, frankly.

Cranky · May 25, 2011

Thus it ever was, IMO. More often than not, people assume someone getting something means that someone else lost out. The pie is limited, the thinking goes, and so we all scrabble for our share of the crumbs. It's not just limited to issues of race, either, though that's the focus of the OP and the thread.

Long post short -- this doesn't surprise me in the slightest. I don't have a clue how to fix it, either, since it seems to be some sort of socially encoded thing, to feel threatened by others' success. Hence the "keeping up with the Joneses". IMO, again, and articulated on only half a cup of coffee at that, so take it for what it's worth, heh.

Rock Throwing Peasan · May 25, 2011

That's one way to look at it, crunchyblanket. Another way to look at it that if a government continues to defer to the cultural norms of immigrants and does not promote the "melting pot" theme, then the nation risks balkanization and further ethnic splintering.

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