Parents keep child's gender under wraps

On one level - fine. Let your kids be who they want to be.

On the other - you're making a national news story about your hiding your child's gender?

Sounds like they made the decision in context of their other child's confusion. I don't know about them "making" the decision into a national news story. Maybe so...

Kinda silly, IMO...speaking as a cisgender adult woman who decided at age three I was going to be a boy when i grew up, and spent the rest of my life having major issues with assigned gender and gender roles and being constantly mistaken for a boy. I say silly mainly because, everyone will know if this baby is M or F--all the family and friends who change baby's diapers will know and share this "secret" info and treat the kid accordingly. If it was your family, would you agree to share in the gender mystery, or instantly call around to other family members til you found out? I know I would call--not so I would know whether to start sending trucks or dollies, but because I would want to know.

And what is baby going to be taught growing up? While it is painful to have the body of one sex and know in your mind you are of the other sex, I think it would be equally traumatic to be treated as a third category--mystery child, with nobody on your team and no knowledge about who to emulate.

Also, wouldn't this article be using the wrong word? A newborn has a sex, but he/she doesn't really have a gender except as gender is expressed by the clothing and toys the parents give him/her, right? Not til he/she is older and chooses gendered behavior would he/she have a gender of own choosing.

PS The baby in that picture is totes a boy!

Baby looks like a boy.

The child's gender is up to the child; the parents are keeoing mum about the baby's sex.

Kitty Pryde said:

Also, wouldn't this article be using the wrong word? A newborn has a sex, but he/she doesn't really have a gender except as gender is expressed by the clothing and toys the parents give him/her, right? Not til he/she is older and chooses gendered behavior would he/she have a gender of own choosing.

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Bless you! Yes; sex is not the same as gender.

How are they "not making a choice" for their children?! I doubt they'll teach this old world a lesson. What will happen instead is this child, who has shown zero identity problem (or desire to participate in their cause), will be set up for confusion and social alienation.

It is painful to be different. If these people want to make a statement, why don't put themselves out there dressed like the opposite sex?

For a child who has shown gender identity difference, maybe that would be handled differently. But to take one child's issue and put it on a different child seems abusive. I think these parents are the ones who have something to learn- children aren't guinea pigs.

CACTUSWENDY said:

Baby looks like a boy.

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I thought so too and they already have 2 boys so their chances on having another is like 75%.

Fruitbat said:

How are they "not making a choice" for their children?!

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They're making less of a choice for their child than they would be if they forced a gender on it the way every other parent does.

For a child who has shown gender identity difference, maybe that would be handled differently. But to take one child's issue and put it on a different child seems abusive. I think these parents are the ones who have something to learn- children aren't guinea pigs.

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They aren't "experimenting" on their child. At least, not any more than every other set of parents does when they raise their children within the bounds of strict and rigid gender roles.

Baby looks like a boy.

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There is no such thing as "looking" like a boy or a girl.

This has happened before. I believe a couple in Sweden were one of the first. In that instance, the child themself, and close family members that would have changed the child's nappies, knew the sex. The sex wasn't treated as a big serious secret issue or something naughty or forbidden. They took the approach that what their child had between hir legs wasn't anyone's business until the kid decided they wanted it to be, and so maintained a neutral overall dress and haircut (kid could switch between male and female coded clothing and hairstyles as and when desired) and refused to tell publicly what sex their kid was.

This article links to the original and has some interesting points to make;

http://sententiola.tumblr.com/post/5076440498/gender-for-kids-the-discussion-so-far

Invincibility said:

They're making less of a choice for their child than they would be if they forced a gender on it the way every other parent does.


They aren't "experimenting" on their child. At least, not any more than every other set of parents does when they raise their children within the bounds of strict and rigid gender roles.


There is no such thing as "looking" like a boy or a girl.

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Invincibility, no offense, but at your age I seriously doubt you have the credentials to state that "all parents" have raised/are raising their children wrong. A parent does not want to set their child up for unnecessary confusion and social mistreatment in the world he or she lives in where no problem exists. It's not about oppressing a child or about making your own political statement, but about that child's best interests. That is not "forcing a gender role on them" or "strict, rigid roles." I refer to the article above or the post of the cisgendered lady on here, for starters.

That's an interesting article. It's definitely a more in-depth look than the clueless ones from those newspapers.

If these people want to make a statement, why don't put themselves out there dressed like the opposite sex?

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They're not trying to make a statement; they're trying to free the kid from having everyone's expectations forced on to them. How would dressing themselves differently achieve that?

Not to mention that they're not dressing the kid up as the opposite sex. They're going with neutral clothes (say, green or purple instead of pink or blue) and letting the child decide which clothes to wear when they have the ability to do so.



I think it's really hard to approve or denounce this way of child-rearing since we don't really have any data one way or another. If we did have data and it turns out to negatively influence the child, I'd still be hard-pressed to say the parents were outright wrong to do it, given what a major factor society's obsession with the gender binary is.

I mean, I'm all for telling a child that they're free to end up dating/marrying whoever they love regardless of gender; if the child repeats that at school, that might cause some problems too. But I don't think it'd be the parent's fault for saying, "Love whoever you want!"

I'm also all for letting children, regardless of their genitals and how they identify, shop in whatever section of the store they like. Remember that huge fuss about the boy in the ad who wore pink nail polish?

While I think raising a child neutral until they have the chance to choose will have more impact on the child than my examples, I don't think it's necessarily different (or worse). It's saying, "I don't wish to expose society's expectations on you; you're free to be whoever you want to be, whenever you get around to making that choice." I assume that the second the kid goes, "Um, Mom, Dad, I feel like a boy, I like being a boy, knock it off," they'll do so.

But at least they had their options open from the start, which is more than most people get. At least they might avoid having an all-pink or all-blue room thanks to the gifts of well-intentioned relatives.

I don't know. I'm intrigued, but I'm not without concern for the kid(s). I'd be really interested to hear from them when they're older.

Fruitbat said:

Invincibility, no offense, but at your age I seriously doubt you have the credentials to advise "all parents" that they have raised their children incorrectly in regard to gender treatment.

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I don't think its age should negate its opinions. 'No offense' or not... that's a pretty offensive thing to say.

Given that it might have personal experience with gender issues, why wouldn't it be able to give its opinions on a matter like this one?

As a parent, you simply do not set your child up for totally unnecessary confusion and social mistreatment. It's not about oppressing a child but about their best interests. I refer to the article above or the post of the cisgendered lady on here, for starters.

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But for lots of genderqueer and trans people, as well as cis people who don't fit gender norms, being raised and treated as their assigned sex is hugely damaging, and is likely to affect them a lot more than cis/gender-normative people being treated neutrally for the first few years until they make up their mind, which would presumably be pretty early on. (After all, if the kid hates being treated a certain way, they can just tell their parents, "When I start this school, I want to tell people I'm a girl, OK?")

As far as parents deciding for the kid's best interests goes... Parents aren't always right. If my parents had had the choice, they'd have probably made me straight and neurotypical at birth. Because it'd be easier for me. In fact, the vast majority of parents would make that choice. And look, then we have no more gay people, no more trans people, no more disabled people. Wouldn't that be an easy world to live in?

I don't *think* Invincibility was saying that people are outright wrong to raise their children according to their assigned sex, especially if they're open about the kid potentially identifying otherwise. But that doesn't mean we should ignore the potential for damage, and that we shouldn't look at it with a critical eye.

Corinne, that's not what they're doing. Both of their boys are presented as girls, with long hair and pink clothes. Only one of them had any question with his sex, and they're only 2 and 5. I don't think it's a good idea to play with that, and a two year old doesn't know what the choices mean. As I said, if my CHILD expressed a dissatisfaction with their sex/gender, that's one thing. But to take it upon myself to put my child out there in a place that many adults have been through hell and back with, with untold misery and even plenty of suicides, just because it is my untested belief that it might be a better way, no I would not.

Also, I'll leave my response to the other poster between me and her, but you are not reading it as stated. The topic is the gender stuff and children. Anyway, I'm going on too long. Just my opinion. Have a good day. ;o)

Fruitbat said:

Corrinne, that's not what they're doing. Both of their boys are presented as girls, with long hair and pink clothes. I don't think it's a good idea to play with that. Now if my CHILD expressed a dissatisfaction with their sex/gender, that's one thing.

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But it is what they're doing:

Though they're only 5 and 2, they're allowed to pick out their own clothes in the boys and girls sections of stores and decide whether to cut their hair or let it grow.

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Though Jazz likes dressing as a girl, he doesn't seem to want to be mistaken for one. He recently asked his mother to let the leaders of a nature center know that he's a boy.

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Now that the kid is old enough, they're letting the child decide how to dress and how to identify. I highly doubt these parents dressed the boys in all-pink before they were able to express those preferences.

Fruitbat said:

Corinne, that's not what they're doing. Both of their boys are presented as girls, with long hair and pink clothes. Only one of them had any question with his sex, and they're only 2 and 5. I don't think it's a good idea to play with that, and a two year old doesn't know what the choices mean. As I said, if my CHILD expressed a dissatisfaction with their sex/gender, that's one thing. But to take it upon myself to put my child out there in a place that many adults have been through hell and back with, with untold misery and even plenty of suicides, just because it is my untested belief that it might be a better way, no I would not.

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Treating your child as cis until otherwise stated is exactly the problem here, and that's what you're missing.

Also, I'll leave my response to the other poster between me and her, but you are not reading it as stated. The topic is the gender stuff and children. Anyway, I'm going on too long. Just my opinion. Have a good day. ;o)

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I am not a "her". I prefer to go by "it", as Corinne has been kind enough to oblige, but "they" is acceptable too. Although since you seem to think parents can do no wrong, it's only appropriate that you're calling me "her".

Fruitbat said:

Corinne, that's not what they're doing. Both of their boys are presented as girls, with long hair and pink clothes.

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But the kids chose that themselves. It says so in the article.

But the kids chose that themselves. It says so in the article.

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And that is the crux of the matter. These parents aren't pushing any specific gender role onto their kidlets. Instead, the children are being given the freedom to explore gender identity and gender expression in a safe way, presumably culminating in their parents supporting and accepting whichever (if any) identity they decide upon later in life.

I can't see a problem with that. Whether other people in the world take it upon themselves to bully or otherwise mistreat these kids is another thing, but we shouldn't let fear of that prevent us from giving kids the choice to be themselves.

BunnyMaz said:

Whether other people in the world take it upon themselves to bully or otherwise mistreat these kids is another thing, but we shouldn't let fear of that prevent us from giving kids the choice to be themselves.

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If anything, the fact that people do choose to bully or mistreat kids in these circumstances is precisely why we need to challenge the restrictions of the gender binary.

From the article:

But Stocker and Witterick's choices haven't always made life easy for their kids. Though Jazz likes dressing as a girl, he doesn't seem to want to be mistaken for one. He recently asked his mother to let the leaders of a nature center know that he's a boy. And he chose not to attend a conventional school because of the questions about his gender. Asked whether that upsets him, Jazz nodded.



Doesn't sound like the kids are really thrilled about being treated this way.

But the world has plenty of manly cisgendered straight dudes who like to wear pink and/or wear their hair long--they dress that way because they like to and not because they feel feminine or feel like women or want to be thought of as women. Just because people mistake you for the wrong gender doesn't mean you are that gender, or that you want people to think you are that gender, or that you are poor representative of your own gender! It just means people are not being that observant, or that they've made their best guess based on the evidence but gotten it wrong, and need to be corrected. The kid's dressing for himself to feel comfortable, and other people's confusion isn't compelling evidence that he or his folks are doing anything wrong.

People are in general awful at determining human gender--I am a lady and i am called "sir" even when wearing form-fitting women's clothes, even though I have a rather large bosom and a very high voice and I'm always giggling--it's the short hair that does it. As a kid with no secondary sex characteristics it was even worse. It took me a long time to figure out why people in the bathroom were always saying "This is the women's restroom" when I entered...But yeah, pink clothes and long hair does not a lady make.


As an aside, anyone else think it's dodgy to make this third mystery-gender-baby a "mulligan child", after the struggles the first kid had?

My (male) cousin got mistaken for a girl all the time until he was old enough to grow a beard purely on the basis of his long hair. Similar things happened to my husband before he had to cut his hair for work. Both are fairly manly men, complete with the broad shoulders etc usually associated with "manly." Kitty is right, people are generally pretty unobservant (one reason why eye-witness testimony is so unreliable).

Kitty Pryde said:

As an aside, anyone else think it's dodgy to make this third mystery-gender-baby a "mulligan child", after the struggles the first kid had?

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I do agree this approach seems inadvisable for a variety of reasons. It almost seems like by keeping the child's sex a secret, they're making an even bigger deal of it than if they let people know, but requested all presents be gender-neutral, and kept to gender-neutral clothes to dress the baby in (which is the approach I'll be taking with my son as much as possible). By going out of their way not to make a big deal of it, they're making a big deal of it. Which seems like it will cause more problems than it'll solve. JMHO.

I agree that constantly drawing attention to it would be problematic, and in an article that *focuses* on it the matter does seem like a big deal, but we don't really know how focused they are on it in everyday life. Maybe it barely comes up anymore. (And I'm pretty sure that most of the time when it does come up, it'll be because of strangers pressuring them for more information, which is also not the parents' fault.)