Agent v. Agentless

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Little Ming

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I think conventional wisdom tells us that if you don't know what you are doing, you find someone who does. That's why I fully intend to at least attempt to get an agent before going agentless. :D

But I know there are many writers on this board who are unagented by choice. My question is why? Did you have an agent before and decided you were better going at it on your own? Did you never have an agent? How do you manage the business side of writing? Do you submit directly to the publisher? Have contacts? Do you negotiate your own contract? Do you have someone else look it over for you? What about other legal "stuff?" Ever wish you had an agent? Is it nice to be able to keep the 15%? :tongue

Specifically, I write fantasy and I know there are some major publishers that will look at unagented mss, but the average wait time is more than a year. :( Any published fantasy novelists out who are unagented? How do you manage?

Any advice is welcome! :)
 

Nick Blaze

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This question is relevant to my interests. I'm VERY curious if there are any unagented full-time writers on the board.

I am agentless, but not by choice. Eventually I will find one, so I'm afraid I can't add much more than that to the conversation.
 

shaldna

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I don't have an agent and I was full time for a while, mostly academic writing though, so that's not quite the same thing, and, while I really liked what I did, I feel that had I been writing fiction full time I would have prefered to work with an agent because I don't have the contacts or the know how to really make the best deals. That said, I have sold all three of my books without an agent.
 

Undercover

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I went agentless for my first two books, and have an agent with the third.

The difference I've noticed is well money for one thing, and a different method of submitting. I just threw my babies out there with the first two. I have a good publisher too, but I doubt I will make a bundle of cash on it.

With an agent, not only will your ms. be better, more sellable and marketable...since they know what's on the market, they coach you too, a lot like a beta. This is how I see it. And all the places she submits it to have advances, nice ones too.

I think publishing first is a better idea. To get your name and writing out there. Many agents hesitate if you have no writing creditionals at all! But then again, if they LOVE your work, they will work with you on it. It's hit or miss with agents, and they are super picky...much pickier then publishers. They are in it to win it, soda speak, ya know?

So it all depends, if you think you have a whopper of a book that will be remarkable to the market, then only search for agents. But if you are getting rejections after rejection, you can always submit to the smaller pubs. There is benefits to it in many ways.

Your choice, hope that helped.
 

Phaeal

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I have never submitted a novel-length MS on my own. I just kept querying agents until I found the right one, because I at least want my shot at the Big Six and the other markets that, explicitly or effectively, require agented submissions.

I'm in charge of subbing my shorts (seven in circulation at the moment.) That's enough subbing for me. ;)
 

Libbie

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I feel the same a Phaeal -- I have some short fiction published, which I sold without an agent. But I currently am working on my novels with my second agent and still have not sold a book yet. I am optimistic, though. I looked into the agented vs. unagented debate before I queried agents, and I decided to go with an agent because I would like to get a large contract if possible. However, it is worth noting that a lot of small independent presses do accept unagented novels and many of them have a very high standard, produce a quality product (good editing, good covers, good distribution). Authors have won Pulitzer prizes out of small independent presses. It is entirely possible to launch a very successful writing career out of a small press, which can be tapped without an agent, but it is much more difficult.

I am not aware of any major contemporary success stories in fantasy that happened without the aid of an agent, but I don't follow fantasy very closely. They may be out there.
 

cameron_chapman

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I'm an unagented non-fiction writer (mostly articles, but I've just finished up edits on my first trad-published book), so YMMV significantly from what I've posted below. I self-publish my fiction, and at this point have no interest in finding a traditional publisher.

My question is why?
For the work I'm doing, I don't see what value an agent could bring to me. Of course, that's going to vary based on the type of writing you do.

Did you have an agent before and decided you were better going at it on your own? Did you never have an agent?
I never had an agent. I considered approaching an agent once I had a contract in-hand, but decided against it after looking over the contract myself.

How do you manage the business side of writing?
The business side of writing isn't really that complex. And in all honesty, an agent only adds a layer of complexity to a lot of businessy things (like accounting).

Do you submit directly to the publisher? Have contacts?
I was approached by the publisher based on my work for a blog that has a book series with said publisher. So I guess you'd say I had contacts.

Do you negotiate your own contract? Do you have someone else look it over for you? What about other legal "stuff?"
I negotiated my own contract. If you sit back and take a deep breath, contracts really aren't that complicated. The money side of my contract was pretty much fixed, due to the nature of the series I'm writing for, but there were other things I had to have corrected, like the due dates for various parts (they fell on weekends, I had them extended to the following Mondays), and the clause giving them first right of refusal for my next book-length work (I made sure to have it specify that it meant book-length non-fiction work, since they don't publish fiction). Mostly minor changes. But seriously, contracts aren't rocket science. Get out your dictionary, be prepared to ask questions, and dig in.

Ever wish you had an agent? Is it nice to be able to keep the 15%?
I don't wish I had an agent. I've read too many horror stories about supposedly reputable agents to be comfortable letting someone else handle the "business" side of my business. I mean, you're going to let someone else basically take over every aspect of your livelihood? I don't trust anyone enough to let them handle the money side of things. Even if, in the future, I do have an agent, my cut of royalties and advances will be coming directly to me from the publisher, and if the agent has a problem with that, I don't need to do business with them. Paranoid? Maybe. But considering that there's no regulation and no oversight for agents, do you really want to trust someone that you may never have met (and in some cases may have only spoken to on the phone once or twice) to be 100% honest with potentially thousands or tens of thousands of dollars? I guess I just don't have that much faith in people.
 

shaldna

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I just want to echo some of the things that others have said upboard, I personally feel that agents can do a huge amount in terms of negotiating contract terms and money which the author simply can't do on thier own.
 

Jamesaritchie

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Even if you do have an agent, you still need to know what you're doing. You need to know just as much about the business as your agent does, and you need to know just as much about contracts. If not, you have no clue whether you're getting a good deal, or whether you're getting ripped off, by the publisher, or by the agent, and both happen.

I don't have an agent right now, and don't plan to have one ever again. I have many reasons for this. I don't like paying an agent fifteen percent for life. It's too much money for what an agent does. I hate the way agents treat writers, and I hate the way writers allow themselves to be treated.

Too many allow agents to tell them what to write, when to write it, and how to write it. If you need this kind of help, you don't need an agent, you need to learn how to write.

I detest many of the clauses agents are starting to work into contracts, and that writers sign. Full control as long as copyright lasts, keep the fifteen percent coming in even if the book goes out of print and you have to find a new publisher with a new agent, on and on.

I hate that a great many agents out there are agents only because they hung out a shingle that says "agent", but writers somehow think they're mysterious people with special powers who know editors better than we know our own parents. The really sad thing about this is that many, many selling agents are treated the same way writers are treated by publishers. What they submit goes straight to slush, and gets sorted out by an assistant to an assistant before an editor ever gets close to it. But writers think the agent and editor are best of friends, and everything the agent submits goes straight to the editor's desk.

I've seen agent after agent after agent make deals that benefited them more than the writers they represent, and the writer usually have no clue they've been bent over.

Far, far too many agents only submit books to the tiny handful of editor's they really know well, and refuse to submit books to publishers that don't offer a large enough advance to fund the agent, even if the deal would be good for the writer in the long run.

Agents often decide to not submit a book because they don't think the time is right, or because a bigger client has a similar book going to the same publisher, or because the moon isn't yet full.

This business is just not all that complicated, and even with an agent you have to learn it, so why not learn it and do without the agent? If you need help, an IP attorney knows more about contracts, takes a one time fee, and then leaves you alone.
 

firedrake

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I hate that a great many agents out there are agents only because they hung out a shingle that says "agent", but writers somehow think they're mysterious people with special powers who know editors better than we know our own parents. The really sad thing about this is that many, many selling agents are treated the same way writers are treated by publishers. What they submit goes straight to slush, and gets sorted out by an assistant to an assistant before an editor ever gets close to it. But writers think the agent and editor are best of friends, and everything the agent submits goes straight to the editor's desk.

I've seen agent after agent after agent make deals that benefited them more than the writers they represent, and the writer usually have no clue they've been bent over.

Far, far too many agents only submit books to the tiny handful of editor's they really know well, and refuse to submit books to publishers that don't offer a large enough advance to fund the agent, even if the deal would be good for the writer in the long run.

Agents often decide to not submit a book because they don't think the time is right, or because a bigger client has a similar book going to the same publisher, or because the moon isn't yet full.

This business is just not all that complicated, and even with an agent you have to learn it, so why not learn it and do without the agent? If you need help, an IP attorney knows more about contracts, takes a one time fee, and then leaves you alone.



Can we see some statistics to support the above assertions please?
Some facts? Some hard evidence?

Look forward to it.

Thx.
 

Maryn

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James, you may recognize this: And despite all the horror stories, all the horrible agents, there are also a LOT of very good agents out there who do care about writers, who do put writers first, and who make a lot of pro writers very, very happy. There are many agents who are very good at marketing, who do keep a book out until it sells, who do everything possible to make sure the writer always gets the advantage.

Simply put, most writers do have agents, do let those agents do all the marketing, and do have long, happy, prosperous careers because of this.


You seem to have changed your tune. How did that come to be?

Maryn, ears up in sharp curiosity
 

Jonathan Dalar

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I am unagented, but not by choice. I'll get one eventually and go it that route.

I do that because the horror stories of not having an agent are at least as bad as having a bad agent. As a writer who writes some horror, horror stories intrigue me, and because they're few and far enough in between with bona fide agents, I'll stick to that route. It's worth the 15% to me.

And it's been argued often that an agent will bring you more than 15% of what you could have gotten for yourself anyway, making that whole percentage thing kinda a moot point.
 

Little1

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Even if you do have an agent, you still need to know what you're doing. You need to know just as much about the business as your agent does, and you need to know just as much about contracts. If not, you have no clue whether you're getting a good deal, or whether you're getting ripped off, by the publisher, or by the agent, and both happen.

I don't have an agent right now, and don't plan to have one ever again. I have many reasons for this. I don't like paying an agent fifteen percent for life. It's too much money for what an agent does. I hate the way agents treat writers, and I hate the way writers allow themselves to be treated.

Too many allow agents to tell them what to write, when to write it, and how to write it. If you need this kind of help, you don't need an agent, you need to learn how to write.

I detest many of the clauses agents are starting to work into contracts, and that writers sign. Full control as long as copyright lasts, keep the fifteen percent coming in even if the book goes out of print and you have to find a new publisher with a new agent, on and on.

I hate that a great many agents out there are agents only because they hung out a shingle that says "agent", but writers somehow think they're mysterious people with special powers who know editors better than we know our own parents. The really sad thing about this is that many, many selling agents are treated the same way writers are treated by publishers. What they submit goes straight to slush, and gets sorted out by an assistant to an assistant before an editor ever gets close to it. But writers think the agent and editor are best of friends, and everything the agent submits goes straight to the editor's desk.

I've seen agent after agent after agent make deals that benefited them more than the writers they represent, and the writer usually have no clue they've been bent over.

Far, far too many agents only submit books to the tiny handful of editor's they really know well, and refuse to submit books to publishers that don't offer a large enough advance to fund the agent, even if the deal would be good for the writer in the long run.

Agents often decide to not submit a book because they don't think the time is right, or because a bigger client has a similar book going to the same publisher, or because the moon isn't yet full.

This business is just not all that complicated, and even with an agent you have to learn it, so why not learn it and do without the agent? If you need help, an IP attorney knows more about contracts, takes a one time fee, and then leaves you alone.


Wow, just wow. I could not disagree more with this post. You SHOULD have a open dialog with your agent about what you are writing for several reasons. Also, *MOST*, (see that word? MOST as in almost not ALL) agents that just throw out a singngle do not last long. Your agent should be there to help YOU to make sure you don't get tricked. They *SHOULD* have spent YEARS studing under another agent. As to the agents deciding about when to publish a book. They KNOW the landskape. They have there puls on what the big publishers are ,for lack of better term, "in to". Or what is coming down. How do you know that there "bigger clinent" has not simply written a BETTER book? GAPS yes I said it. Perhaps someone wrote the book better then you. That happends, that is life, you just have to move on and write another BETTER book.
 

gothicangel

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James, you may recognize this: And despite all the horror stories, all the horrible agents, there are also a LOT of very good agents out there who do care about writers, who do put writers first, and who make a lot of pro writers very, very happy. There are many agents who are very good at marketing, who do keep a book out until it sells, who do everything possible to make sure the writer always gets the advantage.

Simply put, most writers do have agents, do let those agents do all the marketing, and do have long, happy, prosperous careers because of this.

You seem to have changed your tune. How did that come to be?

Maryn, ears up in sharp curiosity

:whip:
 

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I detest many of the clauses agents are starting to work into contracts, and that writers sign. Full control as long as copyright lasts, keep the fifteen percent coming in even if the book goes out of print and you have to find a new publisher with a new agent, on and on.

Mr. Ritchie

I realize you seem to have found a crop of rotten agents; however, most of what you've described are things that reputable agents do not do.

You're condemning a lot of people with very little reason.

Rather than condemning all agents, writers should not sign with disreputable agents.
 

Maryn

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While I suspect that Mr. Ritchie may prefer to keep his change of mind to himself rather than defend his new opinion by revealing a negative incident with an agent or agents, I do hope he didn't get burned too badly.

Remember, James, there was a time not that long ago when you believed agents could benefit the writer and were worth their fee. Those agents are still out there, working for and with their writers.

Maryn, concerned
 

RemusShepherd

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Rather than condemning all agents, writers should not sign with disreputable agents.

I think the problem is that agents (and agencies) are becoming more and more disreputable, both because the economy has tanked and because publishing has become much more competitive. That's why you see bloggers like Dean Wesley Smith warn you against getting an agent, even though they admit that only a fraction of them are bad. One bad agent can kill your career and your checkbook. So there's a cadre of authors out there that are advising it's best not to risk any agent at all.

I think agents have an important place in the writer-publisher relationship. But with all the turmoil in publishing right now it's no wonder that the scoundrels are coming out to cheat whoever they can. The publishing world may have to go through a house cleaning to make having an agent respectable again.
 

gothicangel

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I think the problem is that agents (and agencies) are becoming more and more disreputable, both because the economy has tanked and because publishing has become much more competitive.

Do you have evidence to back this up?

Sonia Land publishing Cookson's backlist is not disreputable. Curtis Brown's Creative Writing School is not disreputable. There is certainly a conflict of interest, but definitely not disreputable.
 

Ryan David Jahn

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I don't have an agent to handle my books, though I do have one to handle any film stuff that might pop up, and I also consult with an intellectual property lawyer every time I negotiate a new contract.

I'm certainly not against agents. I've been in talks with a few since I started getting books published (by Macmillan in the UK and Penguin in the US) but am in no rush to make a decision.

My relationship with my publishers is good and (for the time being at least) I'm able to write full-time on the income from my novels.

That said, I'll continue to talk with agents and will probably settle on one before I turn in my last contracted book.
 
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Soccer Mom

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Unagented romance writer here. Not really by choice. Why? Because I don't think I make enough to interest an agent. I'm happy epublishing my romance novellas.

I negotiated contracts myself. Contracts are scary. They make my palms sweat. I spend a lot of time carefully reading each clause. And I'm a lawyer.

Someday I hope to move up to bigger projects and query agents again. Quite frankly, it will be a relief to have the guidance and business management of an agent.
 
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