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Interesting physics article from NASA

BardSkye

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Can't hurt to check. They seem to have apps for just about everything.

(Doesn't matter to me: I don't even have a cell phone.)
 

Don Allen

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A small experiment with gigantic implications. Basically opens the door to time travel.
 

jacket

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A small experiment with gigantic implications. Basically opens the door to time travel.

As I read it, it simply confirmed the predictions of general relativity. How exactly does this open the door for time travel?
 

Mac H.

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How exactly does this open the door for time travel?
I second this. Particularly since the experiment was demonstrating what everyone believed anyway - the results were exactly what was predicted well before World War I !

Mac
 

Her Dark Star

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Time dilation due to relative velocities of different observers was known before and the evidence suggested that the distance from a gravity effect could also affect it. The GPB is fantastic piece of engineering that proves the frame dragging effect which was only theoretical before. It's fascinating stuff and is proof that time is a force which can be acted upon by other forces, so in theory you could manipulate factors to have an object move faster through time than the rest of the observers, however the effect seen is very, very small.
Does it open the door to time travel? It gives a theoretical path to follow but it's such a helluva long road to go from observing this effect to being able to time travel, with so many possible barriers or effects that could nullify it that I don't think I'm going to get excited about it just yet :)
 

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It's fascinating stuff and is proof that time is a force which can be acted upon by other forces, so in theory you could manipulate factors to have an object move faster through time than the rest of the observers, however the effect seen is very, very small.
Does it open the door to time travel?

Strictly speaking, "going faster through time" means it takes you longer to get where you are going.

So this opens the door to going places slightly more slowly.
 

jacket

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Time dilation due to relative velocities of different observers was known before and the evidence suggested that the distance from a gravity effect could also affect it. The GPB is fantastic piece of engineering that proves the frame dragging effect which was only theoretical before. It's fascinating stuff and is proof that time is a force which can be acted upon by other forces, so in theory you could manipulate factors to have an object move faster through time than the rest of the observers, however the effect seen is very, very small.
Does it open the door to time travel? It gives a theoretical path to follow but it's such a helluva long road to go from observing this effect to being able to time travel, with so many possible barriers or effects that could nullify it that I don't think I'm going to get excited about it just yet :)

Ok, I will accept that it's been awhile since I've been in grad school, but could you link me to some articles that explain this whole "time is a force" thing that you speak of? Something seems fundamentally wrong with that, like, not even just the units.

Again I saw nothing in the article other than experimental support for general relativity, a theory which was already pretty well established. While it is true that general relativity plays a role in some ideas related to possible time travel, as far as I can tell, this article says nothing in the way of furthering those.
 

Her Dark Star

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OK that was all poorly phrased as shown by Maxx's correction. My understanding of physics is also probably hindered that during most of discussion with physicists, theorectical, astro, quantum or otherwise, it tends to be about 4am and we are all very drunk.

Time is a force, was also poorly chosen, not a force in the scientific terminology, I'm not sure what it would be, dimension? Effect? That time can be altered is interesting, in order for it to be affected by physical forces such as gravity or spacial distortion there has to be something for that force to act upon. Is time a dimension, a force, an energy, a particle resulting from laws of entropy? I chose the word force as a generic and I apologise for the confusion.
So yes GPB supports general relativity much as expected but the I think that the space/time distortion that is frame dragging, as well as confirmation of the gravity strength/dilation effect, does suggest a greater level of interaction between space/time and fundamental forces.
I think however that trying to establish the nature of time or all of the possibilities related to that is a bit beyond the scope of this thread. And my cognitive function.

Um, I'm going to go and hide now.
 

jacket

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OK that was all poorly phrased as shown by Maxx's correction. My understanding of physics is also probably hindered that during most of discussion with physicists, theorectical, astro, quantum or otherwise, it tends to be about 4am and we are all very drunk.

Time is a force, was also poorly chosen, not a force in the scientific terminology, I'm not sure what it would be, dimension? Effect? That time can be altered is interesting, in order for it to be affected by physical forces such as gravity or spacial distortion there has to be something for that force to act upon. Is time a dimension, a force, an energy, a particle resulting from laws of entropy? I chose the word force as a generic and I apologise for the confusion.
So yes GPB supports general relativity much as expected but the I think that the space/time distortion that is frame dragging, as well as confirmation of the gravity strength/dilation effect, does suggest a greater level of interaction between space/time and fundamental forces.
I think however that trying to establish the nature of time or all of the possibilities related to that is a bit beyond the scope of this thread. And my cognitive function.

Um, I'm going to go and hide now.

Just as a note for the future--rambling off vague physicy-type stuff that sounds cool but actually fails to say anything coherent, let alone correct doesn't tend to further discussion on the matter in a useful way. Regardless, I don't hold it against you...just pointing it out...
 

Maxx

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So yes GPB supports general relativity much as expected but the I think that the space/time distortion that is frame dragging, as well as confirmation of the gravity strength/dilation effect, does suggest a greater level of interaction between space/time and fundamental forces.

These are standard predictions of plain old vanilla GR. No extra levels of interaction are required for those observed effects -- indeed "gravity" is precisely the effect of the geometry of spacetime itself as in fact these experiments measured. You can't get much more fundamental that that without coming up with a few Higgs bosons and some higher symmetries. However it is really neat to observe the shifting geometry of spacetime directly.
No need to run and hide -- just break out some GR texts.
 
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Her Dark Star

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Noted.
Time dilation due to relative velocity was accepted and is a function of perception not an actual effect on time (in a similar vein to the doppler effect)
Frame dragging however would provide evidence that physical forces can actually effect a function of time.
The GPB results are good evidence of frame dragging.
Hopefully that's more coherent.

PS I now realise this is wrong. I would delete it but I'll leave it as a warning to others about jumping in before understanding. Sorry.
 
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Her Dark Star

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These are standard predictions of plain old vanilla GR. No extra levels of interaction are required for those observed effects -- indeed "gravity" is precisely the effect of the geometry of spacetime itself as in fact these experiments measured. You can't get much more fundamental that that without coming up with a few Higgs bosons and some higher symmetries. However it is really neat to observe the shifting geometry of spacetime directly.
No need to run and hide -- just break out some GR texts.

Thank you, that it bears out GR, absolutely, but perhaps I'm running away with perceived possibilities of what the evidence says rather than just what the evidence does actually say. To me the results suggested a some further possibilities. Overexcitement is the cause of many embarassing moments....
 
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Maxx

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Noted.
Time dilation due to relative velocity was accepted and is a function of perception not an actual effect on time (in a similar vein to the doppler effect)
Frame dragging however would provide evidence that physical forces can actually effect a function of time.
The GPB results are good evidence of frame dragging.
Hopefully that's more coherent.

Time dilation is a real effect of how special relativity works. It's not a matter of who perceives it. It is actually fairly easy to measure. In fact its a text-book undergrad measurement.
But if accelleration slows your time (for a photon at the speed of light the time passes at a rate of 0 -- ie no time passes), shouldn't sitting in a gravity well? Well, it does of course. Frame dragging is a effect on spacetime so yes it has an effect on time, as expected.

http://bulldog2.redlands.edu/facultyfolder/deweerd/seminars/Muons.pdf
 

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I will reread the article more carefully, but I think that it simply reaffirms the finding of Dayton Miller, who redid the infamous Michelson-Morley experiment and found that there realy is Aether Drift.
 

Maxx

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Thank you, that it bears out GR, absolutely, but perhaps I'm running away with perceived possibilities of what the evidence says rather than just what the evidence does actually say. To me the results suggested a some further possibilities. Overexcitement is the cause of many embarassing moments....

Well, its pretty mind-boggling stuff. Imagine how Schwartzchild felt in 1916 when he worked out how
the GR equations produced a gravitational field.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deriving_the_Schwarzschild_solution
 

Her Dark Star

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hehe, if only I could be boggled by working it out instead of just being boggled. Thanks for the links.