Request for some info in regard to Paganism

TeddyG · Oct 26, 2005

I am putting this out here to pick your minds, for a WIP.

If you want to get a feel of the WIP use the link below to my web site, and go to fantasy works...

Anyway..this is gonna be long winded BUT I got permission from the Mod..so neener neener neener.

Maimonides, who was perhaps one of the greatest if not the greatest Jewish Commentator, in his classic work "The Strong Hand" "Yad Hazakah also known as the Mishna Torah" and is his famous Guide to the Perplexed, discusses in a few paragraphs, in both works...the way he veiwed idol worship developing. To be short and to the point his thesis was: (please remember this is coming from a Jewish religious perspective and Maimonides believed the OT was from the word of God.....and I promise to get to the point!)

At first everyone worshipped One God. Then as mankind grew and developed
and they saw the stars and Moon and Sun in the sky they started worshipping these as servents of God. As generations went on God was forgotten and the heavenly bodies were worshipped as powers in their own right.

(If you are interested the thesis for this developed because of the verse in Genesis in Chapter 4 last verse:
"And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enosh; then began men to call upon the name of God."
The commentators tried to understand what the phrase "then began men to call upon the name of God" meant as it is clear that they called upon God beforehand as well.)

Now in Kaballah (Jewish Mysticsm) and elsewhere, there is no doubt that the heavenly spheres, specifically the Zodiac, are given a great amount of attention as to their meanings and power.
Okay...that was a SHORT (promise) background.

Now for my WIP I need some serious input as to the development of Paganism and the worship rites. What exactly is it that a Pagan (not a Wiccan) will believe? What do they worship, if anything? What are the rites? What are the methods? And most importantly the roots of such rites and beliefs?

And if I got the questions wrong...correct me please.

I would appreciate any information, short, long, URL's, essays and Personal.
I need background folks, and also need to know if herbology, stones etc fit in. Details are important for me and this WIP.

Thanks

Teddy

Carole · Oct 26, 2005

Whew! That's no small thing, dearie. Pagans are very diverse. I imagine you will get a lot of different opinions. My advice is to take all rather than only those who may say, "Oh, ok. I know precisely what being Pagan is and precisely how everything developed." No one knows it all and many guess, at best.

Thing is, that's ok.

What is the truth for one may not be the truth for another and that is sort of the nature of it all anyway. Of course there are certain undeniable historic facts, but honestly...some *history* is really hard to validate.

If you think Christianity is riddled with people who argue to no end about right and wrong, heh heh heh...just wait. This thread could become a beautiful thing...I hope it does. Paganism is not easy to pin down.

SC and I are a good example, I think. She and I have very different beliefs about SOME things. We respect the fact that we are both entitled and never try to negate the other's. I get results from magick just like she does even though we don't always practice in the same way. If diversity wasn't part of it all, then that would not be the case.

I'll PM you with some of this, my friend. If I see that this thread will be nice & friendly, I'll post it openly later. I don't mean to sound snippy to any lurkers...and TeddyG, you know what I mean by this...but too many here have been ridiculed and literally brought to tears on AW for expressing their beliefs.

Good luck and I am very interested in reading your work!

TeddyG · Oct 26, 2005

Public or private is cool...

However I will say this much. Anyone who thinks they want to take me on by trying to make others feel bad about their beliefs is invited to take the shot...
Bigots and fools I know how to deal with... and i do not suffer either well.

So forget the ignorance of those who would like to make sure that we all think and act and believe alike...and lets have some funnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn........

sheesh...
(gets all goosebumpy thinking of private PM"s from Carole....)

Teddy

Carole · Oct 26, 2005

TeddyG said:
(gets all goosebumpy thinking of private PM"s from Carole....)

Teddy

WooHoo!!!!

Deleted member 42 · Oct 26, 2005

In broad terms, there are two meanings for "pagan."

First, pagan with a lower-case p -- pretty much is used currently in Modern English for anyone who follows a religion other than the Most Common religions of an are -- depending on the individual, this might mean anyone who follows a religion other than Judaism, Christianity, Islam. Some dictionaries adhere to this definition; some, as some people, use pagan to refer to religions other than the big three, Hinduism, or Buddism.

Originally, pagan was derived from a Latin word which meant someone who lived on a tract of land outside of the city walls -- it was roughly akin to the modern "yokel," and meant something like "rural resident." With the rise of Christianity as the dominat religion of the cities, paganus evolved to mean not just rural, but also "non Christian."

Today, Pagan with a capital P means someone whose religion encompasses a variety of earth-based faiths, rituals, beliefs and practices, often related to cultural beliefs commononly held in the past. One can be Wiccan, Druidic, Celtic, Roman, Germanic, Asatru, Thelemic, Eastern . . . the variety of type/theme is huge, and the amount of individual variance is larger still.

TeddyG · Oct 26, 2005

Okay Lisa..so far so good...

but what i need to know is the earliest Pagan rituals and their roots and reasons as far as we know...and I am talking about all the different aspects...
I fully admit I am not into this to become pagan or Pagan....but I really do want to understand as much as possible...

so now we have the roots down... now what I need is some info..

For instance folks...there is a thread here about using blood, and menstural blood and the blood of a virgin...

Now all of you say that is pagan in nature (someone mentioned the Red Tent), but things like that are not far from modern culture as you may think...

so I want to hear all of it...anything you deem is interesting or important to understand...

Teddy

MacAllister · Oct 26, 2005

For instance folks...there is a thread here about using blood, and menstural blood and the blood of a virgin...

Now all of you say that is pagan in nature (someone mentioned the Red Tent), but things like that are not far from modern culture as you may think...

Oh, heck--things like that aren't far from modern Christianity, for that matter. Consider the Christian tradition of a virgin Mary, impregnated by God.

Deleted member 42 · Oct 26, 2005

TeddyG said:
Okay Lisa..so far so good...

but what i need to know is the earliest Pagan rituals and their roots and reasons as far as we know...and I am talking about all the different aspects...

That's going to be much culturally derived -- as for the oldest, well, that's up to the various feuding archaeologists. You've picked a huge topic.

Monuments like Stonehenge, or New Grange or Laceax or other examples of cave art are almost certainly religious in some ways -- but it's pretty hard to be sure about specifics with pre-writing cultures.

You could do worse than take a look at the OT, as you have been -- the sacrifice of turtle doves, for instance, pre dates the Jews -- you'll find references to it associated with the birth of male children in a number of ancient near Eastern cultures.

TeddyG · Oct 26, 2005

Lisa:

I am fairly familiar with OT. But many of the laws in the OT were as the commentary "Nachmanidies" stated issued in order to combat paganism.

I will give you an example. The prohibition of not eating milk and meat together, part of being Kosher, was derived because the Torah (OT) states in three different places:
"You shall not boil the kid in his mother's milk"

Now I am not going into the "how" this derivation was made and the logic behind it. That is not for this board. However, the commentaries felt that this prohibition was issued because the pagans of the time did have exactly that rite. They did boil the milk of the kid in its mother's milk for religious purposes.

The OT is full of prohibitions against "idol worship" which the Talmud discusses at length in many areas. What I am asking is how such rites were accomplished? and why?

And what other rites were there? what were the reasons? what has made it down to our own day?

For instance there was sun and moon worship. What was involved? why? what were the rites?

There was the sacrifice of children to the Gods, known as "Molech" in Hebrew. A prohibition the OT takes with deadly seriousness btw. what was the purpose of this rite?

Further. The worship of nature. Rites? reasons? etc.

I know it is a huge topic...that is why I am asking the experts!!!
sheesh

Teddy

Deleted member 42 · Oct 27, 2005

You might start by looking at Summerian mythology and texts -- and the Egyptian Book of the Dead, for actual rites. Most of the early religions are extant through their mythology, with specific delineations of ritual being a bit scant.

But there's a fair amount for both Summerian and Egyptian, since both cultures used writing.

There's a fair amount about Roman religious rituals as well.

If you're interested in colder climes, you could look at, for instance, Norse, Anglo-Saxon and Celtic histories of the pagan past.

MadScientistMatt · Oct 27, 2005

TeddyG said:
Okay Lisa..so far so good...

but what i need to know is the earliest Pagan rituals and their roots and reasons as far as we know...and I am talking about all the different aspects...
I fully admit I am not into this to become pagan or Pagan....but I really do want to understand as much as possible...

There is no "one Paganism" that you can track down in the same way one might try to trace the history of Judaism or Zorastrianism. Instead, Paganism is an umbrella term for a variety of different indigenous religious practices. You would be better off tracking down specific pagan religions, if I understand your question correctly. Your best bet might be to sort things by region. For example, you might want to investigate the other religions in the Middle East if you are interested in investigating Jewish commentary. Medievalist mentioned the Egyptian pantheon and the Summerians, where you'd get a fair sense of what other people believed in during Bible times.

There's also Greek beliefs - Zeus and all the other Olympian gods. I believe Homer's epic poems may have been the first effort to set these down, although they were not written down until centuries after Homer.

You'll probably have to track down the other pagan religions that Maimonides may have known about separately, too. The earliest rituals in Celtic, Norse, etc. religions would have all been somewhat different.

TeddyG · Oct 27, 2005

Matthew:

First thanks. Carole already made that clear to me about not having one Pagan religion, which I was aware of but not aware of how many differing versions there were.

So let me drill down a bit here, if I may.

Kaballah, its roots and all associated with it, I need no help with.

Mythology, Greek and Roman as well. Including the pagan customs that were later incorporated into Christianity. (Used to teach Polemics, so I have a fairly good handle on it.)
Ancient Persian known as Zorastrianism I have also a fair bit of knowledge about.

What I am looking for is the development of rites, customs holidays from other pagan sources...

mmmm...

let me give you an example of what I mean..if that is okay .. it may help...
(bit long winded .. am sorry)

Judaism has a holiday called Hanukah, and though the Jewish calendar uses the Lunar cycles, it falls out every year in the middle of the Winter, around "Christmas" Time. This is an 8 day holiday commerating the recapture of the second temple from the Greeks around 300-400 BCE. However, please take note that Hannukah is also called the "Festival of Lights" due of course to the finding of the oil and the lighting of the Menorah. However that name Festival of Lights is critical here. "Light" is a central theme of the holiday.

Obviously Christians have a holiday named Christmas which for most of the world (not all) falls out on Dec. 25th. This is supposedly the day of Jesus's birth and Jan. 1st which is 8 days later his circumsicion (a little known fact or passed over usually). Again an eight day holiday.

Interesting though, that these two religions have a holiday at the same time. More interesting that the Greeks and then the Romans had a holiday at this time as well. "Saturnalia" it was called (later to become famous with Milton's Paradise Lost). This holiday actually marked the Winter Solictice. It occured on Dec. 25th.

Ahh, so now suddenly we have Judaism, Early Chistianity, and the Romans all celebrating a like holiday at the same time.

Gets more interesting

The Talmud tells us (again i will not argue with the historical veracity of this story or not) that the time of Hannukah was actually a holiday that stretched back to Adam and Eve. When Adam and Eve left Eden and had to exist in our "normative" world the legend tells us, that as the days got shorter Adam was sure that God was getting ready to destroy the world as punishment to him. Because he saw the sun going down earlier and earlier. Then suddenly when the days started getting longer, in the lunar cycle of what we know as Hannukah today, Adam realized this is how nature works. Thus he created an 8 day holiday to commemorate this, which Hanukkah then took over.

Funny, Hanukkah, Christmas and Saturnalia are all 8 day holidays. All deal with "light" in their own way, all represent a REBIRTH in a time of darkness.

Themes anyone?

Getting the picture?

What I want to know are the roots of traditions. Whether sun worship, or sacrifice or using herbs or whatever. Where they can be traced to? what is the earliest practice known to us? how was it practiced?

Hope this helps my question better...

Teddy

Sarita · Oct 27, 2005

Hey Teddy. I've been reading and debating about what to post. I'm an up and coming Archaeologist and learning about quite a bit of this stuff in classes right now. I have one on Sumerian/Middle Eastern Cultural Development and another on Egyptology. My Egyptology professor suggested reading the trilogy of books by a man named Faulkner to understand the rituals and spells used in Egyptian worship. They are: The Pyramid Texts, The Coffin Texts, and The Book of the Dead. I'm starting with The Pyramid Texts. So, that might be a good place to start.

Another example of this sort of thing is the Trinity, but I'm sure you've read about that one starting in Egypt with the triad gods and being passed on through other religions. Not a new concept or one conceived by the Christians, by any means.

Isn't there something in Catholisism about eating the flesh of Christ? There's this tribe in Africa (I'll have to look the name up in my text book, later) that practices cremation. They eat some of the ash as a way to be part of the dead relatives and to take on divine powers. There's an archaeologist researching this to determine if the practice has been around for a long time (which he's pretty sure of). It's quite fascinating information.

I'll let you know more as I hear of it. But seriously start by taking a look at some of those books.

MacAllister · Oct 27, 2005

There's this tribe in Africa (I'll have to look the name up in my text book, later) that practices cremation. They eat some of the ash as a way to be part of the dead relatives and to take on divine powers.

Sara, that's actually a fairly common ritual/tradition, going back probably to at least the iron age, from what I've found, across several cultures.

Look into sacred king stuff--<grin>--I've been doing the crash-course for research for the next WIP.

TeddyG · Oct 27, 2005

Saritams8 said:
Hey Teddy. I've been reading and debating about what to post. I'm an up and coming Archaeologist and learning about quite a bit of this stuff in classes right now. I have one on Sumerian/Middle Eastern Cultural Development and another on Egyptology. My Egyptology professor suggested reading the trilogy of books by a man named Faulkner to understand the rituals and spells used in Egyptian worship. They are: The Pyramid Texts, The Coffin Texts, and The Book of the Dead. I'm starting with The Pyramid Texts. So, that might be a good place to start.

Another example of this sort of thing is the Trinity, but I'm sure you've read about that one starting in Egypt with the triad gods and being passed on through other religions. Not a new concept or one conceived by the Christians, by any means.

Isn't there something in Catholisism about eating the flesh of Christ? There's this tribe in Africa (I'll have to look the name up in my text book, later) that practices cremation. They eat some of the ash as a way to be part of the dead relatives and to take on divine powers. There's an archaeologist researching this to determine if the practice has been around for a long time (which he's pretty sure of). It's quite fascinating information.

I'll let you know more as I hear of it. But seriously start by taking a look at some of those books.

Waves Hello To Sara. Did you know this is my 100,005th post? Not my fault they let you play with the numbers next to my profile!

Okay here we go..
thanks for the info...

Now to the Catholic rites etc.

What I think you are referring to is transubstantiation.
This is a rite performed by Catholics.
Here is the dictionary.com meaning..and I will elaborate.

tran·sub·stan·ti·a·tion n.

Conversion of one substance into another.
In many Christian churches, the doctrine holding that the bread and wine of the Eucharist are transformed into the body and blood of Jesus, although their appearances remain the same

Catholics believe that when they are partaking of the wafer and wine, it is literally NOT allegorically the body and blood of Jesus. Again NOT in allegorical sense but a literal sense. The wafer and wine of the Eucharist are transformed into the blood and body of Jesus during Eucharist, which is done at Communion. They become part of the body of Christ and in turn he becomes part of them.

This practice, which is common and used until this very day, is one of the reasons why the Protestant rebellion took place (but that is for a history lesson and not here).

It is interesting to note, that even today, this is one of the most accepted tenets of Catholicsm, and the mind of modern man usually has no problems accepting such an idea as transubstantiation.

There is an interesting historical footnote here, but I will save that for another time.

Such a belief is NOT unique to Catholicsm and has its roots oh way back in the dawn of Green and Roman mythology and farther back into Zorastaniansm.

This is the kind of stuff I am looking for.
Specifically, the roots of sun and moon worship, that of "nature" worship. Above all that I am looking for probably stuff that is found in the dark pagan cultures, Satanism (real Satanism) and demonology, where worship and rites are particularly important.

This is all for my WIP, The Chronicles of the Children of Heaven.

Teddy

Deleted member 42 · Oct 27, 2005

Satanism is an invention of the late twentieth century; it's not an ancient religion.

If you want a genuine ritual, here's one:

The Tarb Fes

In the Serglige Con Culainn, or The Wasting Sickness of Cú Chulainn the hero lies in his sickbed, surrounded by the Ulaid in An Téte Brecc. At the same time, four kings are assembled in Emain Macha, where they hold the tarb fes, the "bull feast," to determine the next king. The tarb fes is carefully described:

Is amlaid dognithe in tarbfes sin .i. tarb find do marbad & óenfer do cathim a satha día eóil & da enbruithi. & cotlud dó fón saith sin. & ór firindi do cantain do cethri druidib fair & atchíthe dó i n-aslingi innas ind fir no fígfaide and asa deilb & asa turascbail & innas ind oprid dognith (LU 3450-3454).

This is how that bull-feast used to be made: to kill a white bull, and for one man to eat his fill of its flesh and its broth, and to sleep after that meal; and for four druids to chant a spell of truth over him. And the form of the man to be made king used to be shown to him in a dream, his shape and his description, and the manner of work that he was doing.

(From Dillon, Myles. "The Wasting Sickness of Cú Chulainn." Scottish Gaelic Studies VII (1953): 47-89. 56).

The result of the tarb fes is that one of the men surrounding Cú Chulainn, his foster son Lugaid, is chosen as the next king because he matched the vision of the tarb fes. This section of the Serglige is pretty clearly borrowed from the earlier text, Togail Bruidne Da Derga The Taking of Da Derga's Hostle. (See Eleanor Knott ed. Togail Bruidne Da Derga Dublin 1936. 4). The two versions are almost identical.

Imbas forosna

The divinatory properties and procedures of the tarb fes are strikingly similar to the divinatory ritual of imbas forosna described in the Sanas Cormaic , a ninth century Irish manuscript. In imbas forosni, or "knowledge that enlightens" a filifirst chews a piece of raw meat (don't try this at home kids).

Imbas forosna reveals the thing that the fili wants to know and has to reveal. Itis thus that it is performed. The fili chews a morsel of raw pig, dog or cat and then puts it on the flagstone behind the door. He chants over the morsel and offers it to the idol gods. He calls them to him and does not leave [them?] the next day. He chants over his two palms and calls the idol gods to him lest his sleep be disturbed. He puts his two palms over his two cheeks and sleeps; he is watched lest he turn over or be disturbed by someone. Then is revealed to him whatever is going to happen to him in the next nine, eighteen, or twenty-seven days, or until the end of the period during which he can be at sacrifice.

(From Sanas Cormaic An Old-Irish Glossary. ed. trans. Kuno Meyer. Anecdota from Irish Manuscripts vol 14 Eds. O. J. Bergin, R. I. Best, Kuno Meyer, J. G. O'Keefe. Dublin: Hodges, Figgis & Co. Ltd, 1912. p. 64).

Deleted member 42 · Oct 27, 2005

Teddy, you want comparative mythology; there's a good book by Jaan Puhvel, Comparative Mythology University of California Press

You might also take a closer look at the Persian deity Mithras, and solstice festivals in general.

Mac H. · Oct 27, 2005

Just a quick note.

Teddy you mentioned:

Obviously Christians have a holiday named Christmas which for most of the world (not all) falls out on Dec. 25th. This is supposedly the day of Jesus's birth ...

That's a good example. While many people will say 'this is supposedly the day of Jesus' birth' nobody I've heard of actually seriously thinks it really IS the day of his birth. It's just an agreed time to celebrate it.

You'll find the same thing with almost all religions. When we read that a certain group believe that the sun god rises each day and chases the moon god out of the sky, some books seem to think that that was a literal belief. It may have been for some people, but it is clear that many others of that tradition understood it simply as what we would call a metaphor. We tend to try and shoehorn statements into belief as 'fact','metaphor','simile','model' etc - others don't have the same pigeon holes we do. (Which makes it very hard to try and follow 'logic' in many ancient texts. Plato was not 'logical' at all by our standards!!)

For a good read of how 'pagan' rituals intercect with modern traditions, try 'The Golden Bough'.

Mac

Deleted member 42 · Oct 27, 2005

Mac H. said:
Just a quick note.

Teddy you mentioned:
That's a good example. While many people will say 'this is supposedly the day of Jesus' birth' nobody I've heard of actually seriously thinks it really IS the day of his birth. It's just an agreed time to celebrate it.

It's not given as the date in the Bible, which associates the birth with the census, and spring. Dec. 25 was picked by papal bull, in part because of the popularity of the Saturnalia and Mithras' feast day.

TeddyG · Oct 28, 2005

Medievalist said:
It's not given as the date in the Bible, which associates the birth with the census, and spring. Dec. 25 was picked by papal bull, in part because of the popularity of the Saturnalia and Mithras' feast day.

Totally correct, i did not mean to imply that the NT did give a date. Indeed Greek Orthodox claim the day was Jan. 6th. The Gospels themselves offer 3 different hints to the birthdate.

However, the fact that in reality this time is celebrated, as a Feast of Lights, a time of rebirth, a Freedom holiday where in Judaism the "weak defeated the strong" (Maccabees vs. Greeks)... or that one who is supposed to give "light" to the world is born and free the oppressed and weak...

the themes are just too easy to spot.....even the Talmud admitted it...

That is all I am saying...roots...rites...reasons...

Teddy

TeddyG · Oct 28, 2005

Mac H. said:
Just a quick note.
(Which makes it very hard to try and follow 'logic' in many ancient texts. Plato was not 'logical' at all by our standards!!)

For a good read of how 'pagan' rituals intercect with modern traditions, try 'The Golden Bough'.

Mac

Just a quick note on this one. Aristotelian logic is not the system of logic we use today, nor then is the Platonic one. Logic in and of itself is a study, (which I was forced to do for BA in philosophy, and found it quite interesting). Each system of logic used has to by definition define rules for how things can be "inferred". Indeed, and I am only posting cause this one of my favorite topic, the logical system we use, actually has created an interesting problem within high tech, with OOP (object oriented programming and data bases)
But this is not the place or time for that.

We think in a linear fashion and thus our minds are trained in linear fashion. We are capable of thinking in a non-linear fashion, but it does take some very specific training. Platonic ideals and Aristotilean logic are important to study, but their method of logic is not our logic system.

(Talmudic logic is a different discussion as well.)

Whatever the case my philosophy roots came out with your statement.

Thanks for reminding me that nothing is logical in this world!!!!!!!

Are there any GOOD URL's someone can recommend for rites, roots, and practice of what I am looking for?

Teddy

TeddyG · Oct 28, 2005

Medievalist said:
Satanism is an invention of the late twentieth century; it's not an ancient religion.

First thank you for the rite information.
Now, I am no expert, and I don't possess the right terminology. But, what I meant by "Satanism" is demonolgy and devil worship. Also "talking to the dead" as a religious function and other various things.

Perhaps Satanism did not exist, but dealing with the devil and calling upon him to help and having rites, is reported all the way back in the Talmud and legend. So whatever the correct name was, that is the stuff I am looking for.

There is certainly a wealth of legend and myth surrounding Satan and his consort Lilith in Judaism and Christianity.

Teddy

Sarita · Oct 28, 2005

TeddyG said:
Are there any GOOD URL's someone can recommend for rites, roots, and practice of what I am looking for?

Have you checked out the links under the sticky thread? Helpful and interesting websites? I'm sure you can find a wealth of knowledge, just starting there. If you find any others, be sure to add them to that page (or just send them to me and I can add them)

Sara

Deleted member 42 · Oct 28, 2005

TeddyG said:
First thank you for the rite information.
Now, I am no expert, and I don't possess the right terminology. But, what I meant by "Satanism" is demonolgy and devil worship.

Satanism is an acutual religion, sort of, today -- Anton Le Vey is generally associated with it.

Demononogy and devil worship -- that too is tricky. The mythological beings in Irish known as the Sídhe, or Tuatha de Dannan, often translated in English as "fairies" were described by ninth-later century Christian writers as "demons."

Perhaps Satanism did not exist, but dealing with the devil and calling upon him to help and having rites, is reported all the way back in the Talmud and legend. So whatever the correct name was, that is the stuff I am looking for.

There is certainly a wealth of legend and myth surrounding Satan and his consort Lilith in Judaism and Christianity.

Teddy

Yeah, but for instance, the word Satan is a loan word, from Persian, which, in addition to other syntax and vocabulary choices, dates many of those texts to later than others --

You really do want to look at comparative mythology texts, and comparative religion -- the patterns you're seeking, including ritual patterns, are thoroughly explored.

TeddyG · Oct 28, 2005

Saritams8 said:
Have you checked out the links under the sticky thread? Helpful and interesting websites? I'm sure you can find a wealth of knowledge, just starting there. If you find any others, be sure to add them to that page (or just send them to me and I can add them)

Sara

Yep checked am checking..
will try to send the lovely Sara some other url's as well...
but they me be closer to the roots in the "normative" religions than in paganism..you choose what you want to put up and what you dont...

just give me a little time to get my act together...
which should take some 10 more years..

Request for some info in regard to Paganism

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