Riding Side-Saddle

Belle_91

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Does anyone on here ride side-saddle? I have some questions.

How is it different from riding astride? I mean I know how it looks differenly, but how does it feel compared to riding astride? I took lessons and ride astride (in English and Western), but I have never ridden side-saddle.

If you want your mount to go faster can you lean forward like you can do when riding astride?

Just FYI my story takes place in the 1770s, Virginia, so I was wondering if clothes would also factor into this? Would a skirt really hamper your riding skills? I feel like the skirts for riding habits were designed so that they wouldn't be difficult for a rider to manager. However, I don't know, since I have never worn a ridding habit or ridden sidesaddle.

Edit: Also, is it called a pommell like in a western saddle? I noticed in side-saddles there is a "gap" if you will to put one leg between. What is that called? Thanks again
Thanks!
 

jclarkdawe

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Does anyone on here ride side-saddle? No. By the way, sidesaddle is one word with no hyphen. I have some questions. Some of which I can answer.

How is it different from riding astride? I mean I know how it looks differenly, but how does it feel compared to riding astride? I took lessons and ride astride (in English and Western), but I have never ridden side-saddle.

If you want your mount to go faster can you lean forward like you can do when riding astride? Yes, but sidesaddle is more like dressage with an upright rider position.

Just FYI my story takes place in the 1770s, Virginia, so I was wondering if clothes would also factor into this? You have two separate issues here. Jules Pellier invented the two pommel saddle in 1830 that is used today. This resulted in a lot more stable position for the rider, and made galloping and jumping possible for any rider. In the 1770s, although a sidesaddle could be used, it was not well suited for rough riding except for by very good riders. After 1830, riders were able to do anything in a sidesaddle that could be done in a regular saddle and the record for jumping a horse occurred in 1915 at 6'6". Habits for riding developed in the 16th century, but the modern skirt wasn't developed until about 1880. Problem is that the skirt could hang if you fell off. Would a skirt really hamper your riding skills? The modern skirt does not, but besides hanging if you fell, depending upon the design of the period, some skirts were not very wide which would cause problems.I feel like the skirts for riding habits were designed so that they wouldn't be difficult for a rider to manager. However, I don't know, since I have never worn a ridding habit or ridden sidesaddle. You won't have worn a habit similar to what was worn in 1770 unless working very specifically at historical reenactment.

Edit: Also, is it called a pommell like in a western saddle? It has two pommels (which has one L). A pommel exists on English saddles as well. I noticed in side-saddles there is a "gap" if you will to put one leg between. What is that called? The upper pommel is the fixed pommel, where the right leg goes between. The right leg then curves back towards the leaping horn (second pommel), but usually not touching it. The left foot goes against the leaping horn and then down to the stirrup. However, in 1770, the second or leaping pommel didn't exist. This pommel provides a lot of stability to the rider. Thanks again
Thanks!

You might want to look at Sidesaddle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, International Side Saddle Organization (USA),"A Sidesaddle", Female Riding Styles through History, and History of sidesaddle (this last one has a picture of a sidesaddle from 1799 which is going to be the type that your character is riding).

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

Belle_91

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Thank you!

"Catherine de Medici with being the inventor of a second horn, between which a lady placed her right leg, and so faced forward for the first time, thereby having independent control of her horse and able to ride at faster gaits."

Catherine Medici was well before the American Revolution. This seems to me that they could ride at a faster gate. Do you think they could jump over something in the 1770s. Like a log or something?
 

jclarkdawe

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Catherine de Medici is credited with inventing the upper pommel that encases the right thigh. This changed the woman's position from sitting sideways to the forward position. If you look at the picture from the History of Sidesaddles, you'll see that it is lacking the leaping horn, which provided a lot of stability to the rider.

De Medici's change made it possible for a rider to ride at some level of speed. Good riders could do quite well. Lady Letitia Lade, wife of Sir John Lade, rode the run of the season for over two hours in a sidesaddle in 1799. But Lady Lade (as well as her husband) were exceptional horse people.

It would be an unusual woman who followed the hounds in that period. Some women were able to do it, but most were not.

My guess is that before the leaping horn, women who wanted to ride aggressively rode astride. You could probably ride a smooth-gaited horse at a canter, but you'd want to keep the horse under control. Small jumps could be doable, but would require a fair amount of expertise on the part of the rider.

I'm not sure what level of society we're talking about here, nor what sort of activity. And where in Virginia. Williamsburg was a lot different than what became West Virginia.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

kwils

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Would you mind if I chime in with a question of my own?

How difficult is it for someone to switch between sidesaddle (two pommel) and riding astride? Could someone be an exceptional rider with both?
 

Belle_91

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Williamsburg is exactly where this is taking place :) But I thought it would be a big no-no for a woman to ride astride? Wouldn't that mean she would have to don a bear of men's breeches?
 

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Skirts.

For remote rural women who had to ride astride there were split skirts, (think Cullottes) some with an apron like panel on the front which buttoned and made them look like a skirt.

I know they were worn in NZ in the 19thC.

Riding side saddle is more secure than riding astride I'm told. Had a friend who swore she never came off if her horse dropped a shoulder and shied.
 

shaldna

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Does anyone on here ride side-saddle? I have some questions.

I do, and I show and hunt in sidesaddle.

How is it different from riding astride? I mean I know how it looks differenly, but how does it feel compared to riding astride? I took lessons and ride astride (in English and Western), but I have never ridden side-saddle.

Quite different, but not in the ways you would expect.

Firstly, sidesaddles are pretty high, and you are sitting much higher on the horses back, which can make you feel very detached from the horse. In addition, thehorses head is much lower compared to your relative positions, which can make you feel like you have nothing in front of you.

You also sit slightly further back, which can be a little off blancing. Your stirrup also tends to be slightly shorter.

People who first ride sidesaddle tend to try and grip with their knees, but this just gives you cramp.

You should not be sitting 'sideways' instead you should be sitting square, with your right leg crossed and relaxed. A slight turn to the left is natural, but you shoudl not be twisting.

Getting used to one leg is strange, so a cane - slightly longer than a dressage whip, takes the place of your right leg, and you use it to give the aids your right leg would.

If you want your mount to go faster can you lean forward like you can do when riding astride?

It's not about leaning forward - unless you want a broken rib. You dont' actually have a lot of moving room in a sidesaddle, and besides, it's 'correct' to be upright when galloping in sidesaddle. You can shift your weight forward, but the sidesaddle is not well suited to weight aids, so you tend to rely more on your other aids, in particular your legs and hands, and voice if necessary.

Just FYI my story takes place in the 1770s, Virginia, so I was wondering if clothes would also factor into this? Would a skirt really hamper your riding skills?

Not really. The hardest part is getting on and off with a skirt on. I've ridden in period costume, which is certainly more awkward than modern sidesaddle habits. For one, the skirt is a skirt, and not an apron like now. But they tend to be big, and roomy and allow plenty of room. In generaly they don't get in the way at all.

I feel like the skirts for riding habits were designed so that they wouldn't be difficult for a rider to manager. However, I don't know, since I have never worn a ridding habit or ridden sidesaddle.

Like I said, it's hardest to get on and off, but the skirts themselves generally have a small loop which fastens the longer bit up out of the way at the back. Modern habits are open at the back and are designed tobe worn over jods and are safer because they are open and so don't get hooked on the saddle like a traditional skirt would, and so the rider reduces the risk of ebing dragged along behind the horse in the case of a fall.


Edit: Also, is it called a pommell like in a western saddle? I noticed in side-saddles there is a "gap" if you will to put one leg between. What is that called? Thanks again
Thanks!

Now, the actual way heads are positioned depends on the type of saddle and the era.

My one looks like the one below
BunnyNearCOMP.JPG


Here you can see how the right leg would come over the top pommel - called the fixed head.

The lower head is called the 'leaping head' and this is generally adjustable and really comes into force when jumping, as it allows the rider to 'squeeze' their legs together, essentially clamping themselves onto the saddle. Some riders feel that it's a more secure feeling than astride.

Now, if you have a saddle like the one below you'll see that there is a cradle for your leg, which gives a little extra security.

saddle2.jpg


You can see here how the legs fit into the saddle
illus-p-037.jpg


Prior to the leaping head, you could jump, but you didn't have that support and it wasn't really advisable, although a good rider could perhaps manage smaller fences and obstacles if they were blanced and reckless enough.

The invention of the leaping head allowed women to jump like this :

49616942360391191.jpg
 
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jclarkdawe

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Would you mind if I chime in with a question of my own?

How difficult is it for someone to switch between sidesaddle (two pommel) and riding astride? Could someone be an exceptional rider with both?

A sense of balance is a sense of balance. I know a woman who rides sidesaddle, English, Western, and vaulting, as well as bareback. Just an incredible sense of balance. Every woman I know who rides sidesaddle also rides astride. I do know one woman who much prefers her sidesaddle. I don't know anyone who rides without a leaping horn, however.

Williamsburg is exactly where this is taking place :) But I thought it would be a big no-no for a woman to ride astride? Wouldn't that mean she would have to don a bear of men's breeches?

I'd contact Williamsburg as well. But Catherine the Great rode both sidesaddle and astride, as did Marie Antoinette. My guess is that a woman of status in Williamsburg would ride both sidesaddle and astride, depending upon the activity. Sidesaddle would be for in town and for show, astride would be into the wilderness, and a carriage when traveling through civilized areas.

You need to understand that during the period of the horse, just as now, people's abilities varied widely. Some loved horses and were exceptional riders, others hated the damn things and did as little as possible with them, and couldn't ride at all. And again just as now, horses were expensive, and not owned by everybody. Many people traveled long distances walking.

By describing your character as a good horse person, you can have her riding a sidesaddle. If she's not as good, then she'd probably ride astride when she had to ride somewhere rugged. If she's an exceptional rider, she could probably keep up with most men on a sidesaddle.

But that's true of any time period. Personally I'm not much for jumping, but I go up and down some slopes without thinking about it that an inexperienced rider wouldn't dare. The better the rider you are, the more you know how to save and protect your horse, while being able to handle worse obstacles.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe
 
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shaldna

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwils
Would you mind if I chime in with a question of my own?

How difficult is it for someone to switch between sidesaddle (two pommel) and riding astride? Could someone be an exceptional rider with both?


A sense of balance is a sense of balance. I know a woman who rides sidesaddle, English, Western, and vaulting, as well as bareback. Just an incredible sense of balance. Every woman I know who rides sidesaddle also rides astride. I do know one woman who much prefers her sidesaddle. I don't know anyone who rides without a leaping horn, however.

What Jim said.

I ride both, all the SS riders I know do. It's really not a massive change once you can ride. The hardest part is when you first learn sidesaddle and you have to learn new aids.

Most rider who try it can ride sidesaddle just fine, and most horses adapt to it pretty quickly too.
 

Anne Lyle

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Williamsburg is exactly where this is taking place :) But I thought it would be a big no-no for a woman to ride astride? Wouldn't that mean she would have to don a bear of men's breeches?

Not if the skirt is full enough - IIRC, in the Middle Ages women would ride astride in their skirts, which might be tucked into a sort of bag/basket arrangement (says my hazy memory of the Wife of Bath...). Poorer women would sometimes wear men's clothing when travelling, for their own protection as well as ease of riding.

And Elizabethan noblewomen sometimes wore riding habits with breeches (the fuller, baggier style called Venetians) rather than skirts. Trousers for women didn't magically appear with Amelia Bloomer :)
 

Belle_91

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She is wealthy-a planter's daughter who is going to be in the House of Burgress. I just fear that if I show her riding astride my readers will frown and think "that's not accurate", but I wanted to her to be an expectional rider too.

If a lady were to ride astride in the 1770s, would she wear breeches under a skirt, or just breeches without the skirt?

Thank you all so very much!

Edit: So when jumping, a lady is supposed to stay sitting upright? When I learned to jump-riding astride-we did something called a "two-point postion" in which you leaned forward in the saddle right before the horse jumped.

I was going to have a scene where the mc is racing with her brother and her brother's friend. I was going to have them jumping, but I guess I might not do that, unless the jump was small
 
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Aren't Camels ridden sidesaddle by both genders? Camel saddles have the double horn too, don't they?
 

jclarkdawe

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She is wealthy-a planter's daughter who is going to be in the House of Burgress. Her father in the House of Burgesses (I believe it is plural and no second R)? Or her? Because I don't think women could be in it until a hundred or more years after your story. I just fear that if I show her riding astride my readers will frown and think "that's not accurate", but I wanted to her to be an expectional rider too. If she's an exceptional rider, I'd have her in a sidesaddle in town, showing a dashing aspect riding about. Formal events like balls she'd travel in a carriage to. Only if she's heading into the wilderness would she need to ride astride.

If a lady were to ride astride in the 1770s, would she wear breeches under a skirt, or just breeches without the skirt? The descriptions I've read sound like it's just breeches. But very loose, floppy type rather than the shaped breeches that men wore. There were also split long skirts for riding astride.

Thank you all so very much!

Edit: So when jumping, a lady is supposed to stay sitting upright? When I learned to jump-riding astride-we did something called a "two-point postion" in which you leaned forward in the saddle right before the horse jumped. There are a lot of videos on YouTube showing sidesaddle riding. The riding position is close to dressage, with a vertical and straight back. Shalda could probably tell you better, but I believe the showmanship classes emphasize a very restrained and refined model, again like dressage. Riding neck or nothing would not be appropriate. One would want to remember to be ladylike. You can't do two-point with a sidesaddle. The more forward you are, the more unstable the rider's position.

I was going to have a scene where the mc is racing with her brother and her brother's friend. I was going to have them jumping, but I guess I might not do that, unless the jump was small If she's an exceptional rider, I think you can have her jumping up to about 2 feet. But show it's the exception, not the rule. But your time period (1770) is a little bit before horsemanship became such a culteral thing in England. Sir John Lade is one of the founding members of the Four-in-Hand Club, and fox hunting was changing from a men's sport into accepted for the rich.

Thomas, sixth Lord Fairfax had the first organized foxhunt in the US in 1747, I believe. There were a couple of women who in the late 1700s had their own hounds, as did Thomas Jefferson and George Washington.

If your character is young and pushing the boundaries of society a bit, jumping a horse would be one way to go. This period wasn't like the 1800s when all proper English women rode.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

Belle_91

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Sorry, the girl isn't in the House of Burgess but her father is. Sorry, I should have clarified
 

shaldna

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Re: jumping sidesaddle


okay, it's pretty awkward feeling, but pretty easy to do.

You can't do two point for the simple reason that you cannot get out of your saddle.

Now, in the past it was common to remain upright when jumping, but this places a lot of strain on both the horse and the rider. However, i will say that it's still common to be 'up' in teh jump when hunting, even astride. The reason being that it's teh most stable position when you don't know what's on the other side of the fence - such as a drop or a ditch.

The problem with sidesaddle is that you are already so far behind the movement that you automatically get left behind at jumps

The best option is bend forward, such as below:

3012247731_a174b30d61.jpg


Whereas the following would have been commonplace. And indeed, I still see people jump sidesaddle like this now.

herberte-c-b-lady-jumping-a-wall-side-saddle-on-a-brown-horse.jpg
 

shaldna

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Only jut realised this, but figured it was relevant.

The best horses for sidesaddle are those with high withers. The reason being that the saddle takes a huge amount of pressure on one side, and is less likely to slip if it's on a high withered horse. A more barrelly horse will have problems as the saddle has nothing to hang on to
 

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The best horses for sidesaddle are those with high withers. The reason being that the saddle takes a huge amount of pressure on one side, and is less likely to slip if it's on a high withered horse. A more barrelly horse will have problems as the saddle has nothing to hang on to

Oh, that is good to know, thank you! And it made me think of something else:

Would the horse have problems switching between sidesaddle and a regular saddle? If a horse were trained as a lady's mount and solely ridden sidesaddle, would it have problems if an ordinary saddle were put on it? Would the rider need to give it different aids than those for a horse trained solely for a regular saddle?
 

shaldna

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Oh, that is good to know, thank you! And it made me think of something else:

Would the horse have problems switching between sidesaddle and a regular saddle? If a horse were trained as a lady's mount and solely ridden sidesaddle, would it have problems if an ordinary saddle were put on it? Would the rider need to give it different aids than those for a horse trained solely for a regular saddle?

Horses are creatures of habit, and don't like changes. The unexpected frightens them.

Changing from normal riding to sidesaddle is something most horses take to more or less straight away. The aids are essentially the same, although you have a cane instead of a right leg. But the aids remain nonetheless.

The biggest issue I have found for a horse has been the added weight - my sidesaddle weighs about 30lbs, compared to my 10lbs GP saddle. In addition, some horses find that the balance girth is a bit uncomfortable, but they get used to that pretty quickly. You might find that a horse who is well trained in weight aids finds it harder to change, but horses are smart, and they quickly adapt

I don't think it's fair to say that horses are creatures of habit, because they aren't really. WE, as owners, force them into a habit. But naturally horses are nomadic, eating whatever, whenever, their entire liefestyle is 'unexpected' in nature. Through domestication we enforce OUR regimes on them, they 'must' be fed xyand z at this specific time, and they can only be mounted and led from the same side, and the routine kept the same, blahblahblah.

It's a falsehood to be honest. Horses are not designed for 'routine' in the way that we enforce it.