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Big Bang simulated in metamaterial shows time travel is impossible

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Smileycat

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According to this article at physorg.com: http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-04-big-simulated-metamaterial-impossible.html

An excerpt:
By observing the way that light moves inside a metamaterial, researchers have reconstructed how spacetime has expanded since the Big Bang. The results provide a better understanding of why time moves in only one direction, and also suggest that time travel is impossible.

I wonder if this means it would be possible if there was no Big Bang? For those of you who studied the Bible at all, God is defined as "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,: says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty," in Revelation 1:8.

May I have your opinion?
 

Smileycat

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Well, at least this means free will still exists!

Hi, Zoombie. I just want to understand what you're saying. Do you think that if time travel were possible and the Big Bang is THE theory of how we started, free will would be questionable?

I think some things are preordained, so to speak. But I do think we have choices to make which can deeply affect our lives, too.

Thanks for your opinion.
 

kuwisdelu

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Eh, this doesn't really convince me of anything. It's already pretty much accepted that general relativity is incomplete, and there are new theories that even gravity is only an emergent phenomenon rather than an actual force. Which — on a sidenote — makes me think it would be interesting if time is similar in that regard. But I don't see any rigorous justification for concluding anything at all from this.

Besides which, it depends what is meant by "time travel." Are we talking about going back in time? Because traveling forward in time has already pretty much been demonstrated. At least insofar as how we humans are capable of measuring the concept called "time."

I'm not really sure where a god or anything theological would come in or have anything to do with this, either.
 
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Smileycat

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We already know time travel is impossible.

No one has come back to tell us they're from the future.

And, frankly, I doubt people from the future are any better at keeping secrets than we are today.

Well, John Titor says he was from our future. Lots of people don't believe he was genuine, while others swear his predictions were on the money. He may have hit the mark on some, but he also missed quite a few so far. So, I don't know that I believe him. Have you heard of him? (See http://www.johntitor.com/)
 

kuwisdelu

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It should be noted that whether time travel is possible and whether humans will ever be capable of it are entirely separate issues. It'd be cool if we could manage it, of course. But there are lots of things that are possible that we can't or don't do for practical reasons.
 

not_HarryS

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Eh, this doesn't really convince me of anything. It's already pretty much accepted that general relativity is incomplete, and there are new theories that even gravity is only an emergent phenomenon rather than an actual force. Which — on a sidenote — makes me think it would be interesting if time is similar in that regard. But I don't see any rigorous justification for concluding anything at all from this.

Besides which, it depends what is meant by "time travel." Are we talking about going back in time? Because traveling forward in time has already pretty much been demonstrated. At least insofar as how we humans are capable of measuring the concept called "time."

I'm not really sure where a god or anything theological would come in or have anything to do with this, either.

Do you have any more info on gravity as an emergent phenomenon as opposed to an actual force? I'm not even entirely sure what that means, so I'd love to read more about it.

Thanks :)

/derail
 

kuwisdelu

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Do you have any more info on gravity as an emergent phenomenon as opposed to an actual force? I'm not even entirely sure what that means, so I'd love to read more about it.

Thanks :)

/derail

Here's where I saw it. It makes sense in some ways, but it's far from being accepted or proven, of course.
 

Zoombie

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Hi, Zoombie. I just want to understand what you're saying. Do you think that if time travel were possible and the Big Bang is THE theory of how we started, free will would be questionable?

I think some things are preordained, so to speak. But I do think we have choices to make which can deeply affect our lives, too.

Thanks for your opinion.

If time travel were possible, then it would mean that - in a sense - things that are going to happen will have already happened. If you can change the past, or travel into alternate futures, you're just traveling between dimensions.

If everything has already happened, then there is no free will, as all choices have already been made.

And as someone who likes making choices, I'm not a big fan of predestination in any of it's forms, whether its via time travel or providence.
 

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Eh, this doesn't really convince me of anything. It's already pretty much accepted that general relativity is incomplete, and there are new theories that even gravity is only an emergent phenomenon rather than an actual force. Which — on a sidenote — makes me think it would be interesting if time is similar in that regard. But I don't see any rigorous justification for concluding anything at all from this.

Besides which, it depends what is meant by "time travel." Are we talking about going back in time? Because traveling forward in time has already pretty much been demonstrated. At least insofar as how we humans are capable of measuring the concept called "time."

I'm not really sure where a god or anything theological would come in or have anything to do with this, either.

I also think general relativity isn't all it was hoped to be.

Time travel means just that - back and forward. Linear time, although seemingly easy to measure, has some peculiarities about it. Have you ever read any of Jenny Randles' books? I have Time Storms: The Amazing Evidence of Time Warps, Space Rifts and Time Travel. Amazing true stories. You can read a few incidents in this amazon book excerpt page - http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0749922427/?tag=absowrit-21.

I believe we need to account for ALL incidents, not throw out the ones that don't fit in with what we think it means.

As far as God goes, I always try to tie everything together. That's just me. I think that quote from Revelation is much deeper than people realize, and I think it implies something about time.
 

Smileycat

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It should be noted that whether time travel is possible and whether humans will ever be capable of it are entirely separate issues. It'd be cool if we could manage it, of course. But there are lots of things that are possible that we can't or don't do for practical reasons.

I agree.
 

LOG

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If time and space are one, then why would we be able move through space but not time?
Or is that too simplistic a way of looking at it?
 

Smileycat

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If time travel were possible, then it would mean that - in a sense - things that are going to happen will have already happened. If you can change the past, or travel into alternate futures, you're just traveling between dimensions.

If everything has already happened, then there is no free will, as all choices have already been made.

And as someone who likes making choices, I'm not a big fan of predestination in any of it's forms, whether its via time travel or providence.

I see. What about the theory of multiverses? See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse. Every possibility already exists, and we may just jump from one to another, like in the old Sliders program about travelling between multiverses? It aired on Fox, then the Sci-fi channel. There was some freedom of choice depicted in that show.

The question for me is (about multiverses) "Is there a limit to the amount of realities that any choice could produce?" Does a new universe appear simply by thinking about it? Then, wouldn't that tie in with the theory that we are living in a computer simulation? See http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html.
 

Smileycat

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If time and space are one, then why would we be able move through space but not time?
Or is that too simplistic a way of looking at it?

Maybe because time is a different dimension? Or maybe we can, but are not able to perceive it in this third dimension?
 

Zoombie

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Really, I'm going to wait until an actual physicst shows up in this thread before I think much more. I just don't have the grounding to say anything more than hobbdlygobbldy and flim flam.
 

Smileycat

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Really, I'm going to wait until an actual physicst shows up in this thread before I think much more. I just don't have the grounding to say anything more than hobbdlygobbldy and flim flam.

Okay, Zoombie... Passes the Tylenol.
 

DrZoidberg

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Time travel is quite possible. I've done it many times. Here's a demonstration. I will now travel one second into the future

*poof*

...and now we're here... in the FUTURE!!!
 

third person

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Time is but a unit of measurement for the human experience. It is always now.
 

Smileycat

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Time travel is quite possible. I've done it many times. Here's a demonstration. I will now travel one second into the future

*poof*

...and now we're here... in the FUTURE!!!

You're awfully cute. See third person's reply.
 

kuwisdelu

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I also think general relativity isn't all it was hoped to be.

I think that's a somewhat more subjective way of putting it. General relativity is a very good theory, just like Newtonian physics is a very good theory. Simply because they're incomplete doesn't make them any less good for explaining a large amount of what we see.

Time travel means just that - back and forward. Linear time, although seemingly easy to measure, has some peculiarities about it.

Going forward in time at different rates is fairly easy and has been demonstrated. Traveling at speeds of a significant enough fraction of the speed of light will result in time passing slower locally, which is a result that has been measured and can be repeated.

Have you ever read any of Jenny Randles' books? I have Time Storms: The Amazing Evidence of Time Warps, Space Rifts and Time Travel. Amazing true stories. You can read a few incidents in this amazon book excerpt page - http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0749922427/?tag=absowrit-21.

I believe we need to account for ALL incidents, not throw out the ones that don't fit in with what we think it means.

I haven't, but I checked out the link. It looks like mostly anecdotes. I'm not the kind of person to dismiss those kinds of things out of hand, but I hardly think they should be given the credence of repeatable results and phenomena.

As far as God goes, I always try to tie everything together. That's just me. I think that quote from Revelation is much deeper than people realize, and I think it implies something about time.

I'm not much of a theist, in the traditional sense, so I rarely think about that kind of thing.

If time and space are one, then why would we be able move through space but not time?
Or is that too simplistic a way of looking at it?

Maybe because time is a different dimension? Or maybe we can, but are not able to perceive it in this third dimension?

Time is traditionally thought of as the fourth dimension. In special relativity, we use four-vectors to represent vectors in space and time. We are indeed capable of traveling forward in time at different rates (though it takes an obscene amount of energy to do it enough to matter to human perception).

If we could travel backward in time, it would violate causality. And furthermore, because of space time geometry, it would imply the ability to travel at faster than the speed of light. From a practical standpoint, this is impossible because the consequences of special relativity mean it will take more and more energy to continue accelerating the faster you go, and asymptotically, it would take an infinite amount of energy to reach the speed of light and, i.e., travel back in time. Theoretically, there's nothing that prevents time travel if you can jump across that speed of light border somehow.

Really, I'm going to wait until an actual physicst shows up in this thread before I think much more. I just don't have the grounding to say anything more than hobbdlygobbldy and flim flam.

I only have a minor in physics, and I haven't read much new research in a while, so I'm pretty out of the loop here, too.

Time is but a unit of measurement for the human experience. It is always now.

For scientific measurements, we usually use more reliable measurements for time, such as the oscillations of atoms or other particles than something as fallible as "the human experience."
 
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shelleyo

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Well, John Titor says he was from our future. Lots of people don't believe he was genuine, while others swear his predictions were on the money. He may have hit the mark on some, but he also missed quite a few so far. So, I don't know that I believe him. Have you heard of him? (See http://www.johntitor.com/)

He wouldn't miss any if he really came back from the future. His prediction of a civil war in America that would start in 2004 and build through 2015, for instance. Total rubbish, hasn't happened. If he lived it already, he could not possibly be mistaken. So just based on that one, he's a fraud. The rest really don't matter after a doozy like that, do they?

Even a time-traveler with a crap memory wouldn't remember a civil war that lasted 11 years that didn't happen. :p


Shelley
 

kuwisdelu

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He wouldn't miss any if he really came back from the future. His prediction of a civil war in America that would start in 2004 and build through 2015, for instance. Total rubbish, hasn't happened. If he lived it already, he could not possibly be mistaken. So just based on that one, he's a fraud. The rest really don't matter after a doozy like that, do they?

Even a time-traveler with a crap memory wouldn't remember a civil war that lasted 11 years that didn't happen. :p

Well you have to consider that merely existing in a time you don't belong could have unforeseen effects that could result in massive changes in the timeline.

I mean, I still think he's full of crap. Just saying.
 

Smileycat

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I think that's a somewhat more subjective way of putting it. General relativity is a very good theory, just like Newtonian physics is a very good theory. Simply because they're incomplete doesn't make them any less good for explaining a large amount of what we see.
I have no problem with that.

Going forward in time at different rates is fairly easy and has been demonstrated. Traveling at speeds of a significant enough fraction of the speed of light will result in time passing slower locally, which is a result that has been measured and can be repeated.
Sources? (Want to see exactly what you mean.)

I haven't, but I checked out the link. It looks like mostly anecdotes. I'm not the kind of person to dismiss those kinds of things out of hand, but I hardly think they should be given the credence of repeatable results and phenomena.
These are experiences people had. They do not qualify as scientific method data, of course.

I'm not much of a theist, in the traditional sense, so I rarely think about that kind of thing.
I am just trying to tie that in. I have a puzzle brain.

Time is traditionally thought of as the fourth dimension. In special relativity, we use four-vectors to represent vectors in space and time. We are indeed capable of traveling forward in time at different rates (though it takes an obscene amount of energy to do it enough to matter to human perception).
Some say 4th dimension, while others say each different universe is a different dimension, because they may actually occupy the same space. So if the idea of a multiverse means, everything is happening now, just in a different dimension, maybe we should go back to the Vedic way of thinking. They have always believed in a multiverse - http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vida_alien/vidaalien_signtimes08a.htm. As far as your statement that " We are indeed capable of traveling forward in time at different rates," I will need to see some examples, please.

If we could travel backward in time, it would violate causality. And furthermore, because of space time geometry, it would imply the ability to travel at faster than the speed of light. From a practical standpoint, this is impossible because the consequences of special relativity mean it will take more and more energy to continue accelerating the faster you go, and asymptotically, it would take an infinite amount of energy to reach the speed of light and, i.e., travel back in time. Theoretically, there's nothing that prevents time travel if you can jump across that speed of light border somehow.
Some say that, but how do we truly know that? There is no evidence or proof. No repeatable experiment to accumulate data for the scientific method, which is required by science.

I only have a minor in physics, and I haven't read much new research in a while, so I'm pretty out of the loop here, too.
I'm not a scientist.

For scientific measurements, we usually use more reliable measurements for time, such as the oscillations of atoms or other particles than something as fallible as "the human experience."
As third dimensional beings, we measure everything using materials of our dimension.
 
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