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Maxx
04-07-2011, 11:08 PM
So there's an event in the next-to-minimal supersymmetric range at Fermilab:

http://arxiv.org/abs/1104.0699

which could be a squark of the minimal kind:

http://susy10.uni-bonn.de/talks/ellwanger_susy2010.new.pdf

Which if there is next-to-minimal super symmetry:

possibly many odd Higgs Bosons should be turning up soon as well at the LHC at CERN:

http://arxiv.org/abs/1011.6547

FOTSGreg
04-08-2011, 12:03 AM
Um, huh, what?

What are the implications, in layman's terms please, if this is true?

Astronomer
04-08-2011, 01:41 AM
They believe they might have observed the decay of a particle at extremely high energies that was SO not predicted by the current Standard Model. Moreover, the analysis indicates that this particle may be a "force-carrying" particle, with the mind-boggling implication we may be on the brink of discovering a fifth force of nature.

That alone would be enough. If confirmed, it would be the biggest thing in physics since Relativity and Quantum Physics. But if the new force (if confirmed) could be described as a form of repulsive gravity, it could be that we've received our first glimpse into that elusive stuff that makes up 75% of the universe and is causing its expansion to accelerate: Dark Energy.

That's my take on it, anyway.

benbradley
04-08-2011, 03:33 AM
Um, huh, what?

What are the implications, in layman's terms please, if this is true?
More billions to be spent on even larger particle accelerators.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

They believe they might have observed the decay of a particle at extremely high energies that was SO not predicted by the current Standard Model. Moreover, the analysis indicates that this particle may be a "force-carrying" particle, with the mind-boggling implication we may be on the brink of discovering a fifth force of nature.
I can hear many New Age gurus saying "See, I told you so!"

That alone would be enough. If confirmed, it would be the biggest thing in physics since Relativity and Quantum Physics. But if the new force (if confirmed) could be described as a form of repulsive gravity, it could be that we've received our first glimpse into that elusive stuff that makes up 75% of the universe and is causing its expansion to accelerate: Dark Energy.

That's my take on it, anyway.
All this Dark Science seems so tentative...

Torgo
04-08-2011, 03:34 AM
a squark of the minimal kind

That scans so perfectly as an Edward Lear line.

Torgo
04-08-2011, 03:35 AM
Hey, there are also 'sparticles'!

Difficult to detect. "I'm sparticle!" "No, I'm sparticle"

Astronomer
04-08-2011, 09:12 AM
All this Dark Science seems so tentative...

Oh, it is. Indeed, ALL science is tentative. But the dark stuff, especially so.

Maxx
04-08-2011, 04:00 PM
Oh, it is. Indeed, ALL science is tentative. But the dark stuff, especially so.

It wouldn't quite exactly be like a new "force" -- As Steven Wienberg has been saying for a few decades, what we have is an "effective field theory" -- ie the forces we see are compromises amoung more fundamental forms of action where there are lots of forces (eg. forces where supersymmetric particles = sparticles = are exchanged).
This might be the first glimpse of the real forces in action.
Or it might be a statistical fluke.

Astronomer
04-08-2011, 04:11 PM
Thanks, Maxx. I appreciate the clarification. I tend to fall into the habit of referring to our models as reality instead of treating them as the layers of abstraction separating us from reality that they truly are.

Maxx
04-08-2011, 04:59 PM
Thanks, Maxx. I appreciate the clarification. I tend to fall into the habit of referring to our models as reality instead of treating them as the layers of abstraction separating us from reality that they truly are.

Some of the forces that the physists are trying to get the press excited about are pretty abstract no matter what. For example: "electro-weak" (I think this set of events can be read as a WW ZZ type "electro-weak" event producing a squark ie a strong-force supersymmetric particle or sparticle). You don't directly observe the weak part of that force in day-to-day life. I guess you directly observe the electro part all the time (lightning or static electricity or the glow on your computer screen)

Hallen
04-09-2011, 02:04 AM
A cheesy CNN article on the event (http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/04/08/particle.physics.tevatron/index.html?eref=rss_tech&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_tech+%28RSS%3A+Tech nology%29&utm_content=Google+International)

Cool, nonetheless.

If electromagnetism is one force, couldn't gravity and mass be the opposite sides of the same force? Or am I stating the obvious or ridiculous? (we could call it Gravass :D OK Gravimass would be better)

Astronomer
04-09-2011, 07:21 PM
If electromagnetism is one force, couldn't gravity and mass be the opposite sides of the same force?
Mass gives rise to gravity, so the two are definitely linked. But mass isn't a force, so I'm not sure I understand your question.

But to address the larger issue you've touched upon: to the extent that your postulate is confirmed to be the case, such confirmation would arise from our mathematical models, which are abstractions that only describe -- not explain -- underlying reality.

As Maxx has said: "It is what it is." (I'm paraphrasing just a bit. :))

Maxx
04-11-2011, 06:12 PM
A cheesy CNN article on the event (http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/04/08/particle.physics.tevatron/index.html?eref=rss_tech&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_tech+%28RSS%3A+Tech nology%29&utm_content=Google+International)

Cool, nonetheless.

If electromagnetism is one force, couldn't gravity and mass be the opposite sides of the same force? Or am I stating the obvious or ridiculous? (we could call it Gravass :D OK Gravimass would be better)

The electroweak force has its own opposites. You can see how the force works by observing how its field (always actually some virtual particles -- in this case the W and Z bosons that carry the electro-weakforce) lets those opposites work.
Gravity has no opposites built into it. It is always attractive, though of course as a force it causes some part of the expansion of the universe.

Supersymmetry (which might be one interpretation of this event) places all forces under the control of supersymmetric opposites or fields. So in Supersymmetry, gravity would have an opposing force (for example like this:
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1103/1103.3504v1.pdf),
ie a mediating field, ie a set of particles like the photon,W and Z for the electroweak force.

So yes, you are right. Gravity might balance the electoweak force and maybe via supersymmetric forces of some kind.

FOTSGreg
04-16-2011, 03:49 AM
Okay, what are the real- life ramifications of such a thing, if it occurred, and how might it shape future physics 20 years down the road and real-life 20 years down the road providing we have an understanding of just what is happening, or could happen, if we can do the math regarding this event and these "particles"?

Speculation, please, but realistic speculation.

Astronomer
04-16-2011, 05:48 PM
If this event actually is our first glimpse into the mechanism underlying dark energy, then we should be able to predict more accurately when the universe will end.

Yay.

Maxx
04-18-2011, 04:30 PM
Okay, what are the real- life ramifications of such a thing, if it occurred, and how might it shape future physics 20 years down the road and real-life 20 years down the road providing we have an understanding of just what is happening, or could happen, if we can do the math regarding this event and these "particles"?

Speculation, please, but realistic speculation.

As the Astonomer says, finding some supersymmetric particles and or the Higgs (standard or otherwise) would point us in the direction of figuring out how the universe as a whole works. Or more exactly, what the overall energy budget is for groups of galaxies in terms of formation and change. I suppose there would be some clearer ideas of how gravity works at the Planck scale.

On the other hand if there is no Higgs and no Supersymmetry, the Standard Model is in some trouble.
Which is odd, since the best thing for the Standard Model seems to be that it is a part of some next-to-minimal supersymmetry.

Maxx
04-18-2011, 07:35 PM
A cheesy CNN article on the event (http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/04/08/particle.physics.tevatron/index.html?eref=rss_tech&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_tech+%28RSS%3A+Tech nology%29&utm_content=Google+International)

Cool, nonetheless.

If electromagnetism is one force, couldn't gravity and mass be the opposite sides of the same force? Or am I stating the obvious or ridiculous? (we could call it Gravass :D OK Gravimass would be better)

Summary of Supersymmetry:

http://physics.aps.org/articles/v4/27