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Sarita
10-21-2005, 07:02 AM
I saw this Anthropology film last night on campus and it made me want to ask you questions. It was a film on the suppression of a woman's period and how it effects her physically and emotionally. One of the things the filmmaker said (she was there, how cool is that?) was that ancient cultures had rituals surrounding their cycles, basically pagan rituals, and they would be of benefit to women today, to stay in touch with their bodies. Now, I've heard of folklorical rituals, but nothing concrete. Do you guys know of any still used or that used to be used? It made me very curious.

Here's the site. Check it out, if ya like:

http://www.periodthemovie.com/


Bugger. I just typed this stellar reply and lost it. BOOOOO.

Well, I wish I had time for debauchery in general. When I do, this will be the first place I look. You girls are great. :)

Carole
10-21-2005, 02:21 PM
Sara, I've never been part of any rituals although I know they exist. I'm just not familiar with any. The only time it was ever even brought up to me is to tell me that I should completely remove myself from one particular type of magick when I am on my period. Now, I don't practice that system and I likely never will, but I know all their female practitioners stay away once a month. Supposedly it has something to do with the blood being a waste product. *shrugs* I really don't even remember all of the specifics.

Sarita
10-21-2005, 04:25 PM
Thanks Carole. Know of any books where this sort of thing might be mentioned?

PattiTheWicked
10-21-2005, 04:52 PM
Sara, this is an interesting topic (maybe it should get its own thread?). I know that I personally have always felt that my magickal workings were stronger during that one week out of the month, almost as though there was a little extra "oomph" in there.

As to not performing certain rituals during one's period, I've heard of that but never followed it. I have used menstrual blood in ritual on a couple of occasions, and never found that things were less effective because of it.

Carole
10-21-2005, 07:40 PM
Books on the system I mentioned or books on rituals for women?

Sarita
10-21-2005, 11:51 PM
(maybe it should get its own thread?). Good call, Patti. :)

You should check out that site. One of the women featured in the film does ritualistic art with her monthly blood. I found it a slightly disturbing idea, but after she was interviewed... Eh. To each her own, ya know?

Anyone else have info on period rituals?


or books on rituals for women? Yes.

trumancoyote
10-22-2005, 12:03 AM
Good call, Patti. :)

You should check out that site. One of the women featured in the film does ritualistic art with her monthly blood. I found it a slightly disturbing idea, but after she was interviewed... Eh. To each her own, ya know?

Anyone else have info on period rituals?

Yes.

It's very common to use one's menstrual blood in Hoodoo rituals. But some of that **** is **** you don't wanna mess w/.

PattiTheWicked
10-22-2005, 12:35 AM
In Hoodoo trads, it's not uncommon for mentstrual blood to be used as an "ingredient" -- as in, let's say, Sex Cake or the Special Land-Your-Man Gumbo. I've never had need to use it in such circumstances, but have used it as an offering to the gods, and with decent results.

scfirenice
10-22-2005, 12:36 AM
Sara, read The Red Tent. The funny thing about this book is that it is Christian but the rituals listed are purely Pagan. There is a great deal in there about Cycle Rituals. The book is amazing. They had a ritual where the girl's first menstral blood was used as an offering as well as the blood from breaking her hyman. The cool thing was the rituals were female only, they used replicas of Pagan gods to break the hyman and offered the blood to that God. Supposedly this was an actual practice of the time.

scfirenice
10-22-2005, 12:38 AM
I have never used menstal blood for any offering as I also see it as bodily waste, I did use some of the blood from my daughter's birth with amazing results.

trumancoyote
10-22-2005, 12:50 AM
In Hoodoo trads, it's not uncommon for mentstrual blood to be used as an "ingredient" -- as in, let's say, Sex Cake or the Special Land-Your-Man Gumbo. I've never had need to use it in such circumstances, but have used it as an offering to the gods, and with decent results.

Using menstrual blood in those sorts of spells is something I'd consider risky. I mean, one time I used blood from my wagina to hoodoo a man, and it had disasterous kharmic repercussions.

Using your blood as an offering is an interesting idear. I can understand both that and scifire's aversion to it. In ancient Japan, menstruation was considered a filthy thing, a time wherein one should avoid his woman, and it would consequently, I'm sure, be utmost taboo in any sort of magickal workings. But then again, Japan was and is a patriarchal society, so their viewpoint was rarely fair in this type of matter.

PattiTheWicked
10-22-2005, 01:05 AM
I have never used menstal blood for any offering as I also see it as bodily waste, I did use some of the blood from my daughter's birth with amazing results.

Interesting perspective -- I don't look at menstrual blood as waste product at all, but as a life force. It's symbolic of where new life begins within us, or at least that's the way I view it. In workings related to conception and fertility, it seems like the perfect offering.

From a medical perspective, menstrual blood is actually very clean when it first leaves the body. It's only after it comes into contact with such things as urine, sanitary napkins, tampons, etc, that it becomes less than hygienic. Not that I personally would want to ingest it, but it isn't toxic or unsanitary or anything.


In ancient Japan, menstruation was considered a filthy thing, a time wherein one should avoid his woman, and it would consequently, I'm sure, be utmost taboo in any sort of magickal workings. But then again, Japan was and is a patriarchal society, so their viewpoint was rarely fair in this type of matter.

I think this was common in many male dominated societies. Heck, look at the Bible, where there's an injunction against even having carnal relations with a menstruating wife.

In some cultures women are considered more magickally potent during their period -- I spent ten years in South Carolina and had a friend whose grandfather was a "root doctor", and all the men tried really hard not to piss off menstruating wives, sisters, or grannies, because it was well known that "if she bleedin' she put the root on you."

trumancoyote
10-22-2005, 01:09 AM
That is fascinating and, if I may say, probably true. You've probably heard of men's reluctance to drink any sort of opaque liquid from a single woman in the South, huh? ;) Eek.

Carole
10-22-2005, 01:48 AM
Interestingly enough, certain Santerian rituals specifically forbid a mentruating woman to participate as well as pregnant women, but for different reasons.

trumancoyote
10-22-2005, 01:59 AM
I know this is dumb, Miss Carole, but what is Santeria?

Carole
10-22-2005, 02:24 AM
Not dumb. I like your new avatar, by the way.

Santeria is sometimes compared to voodoo and from the outside it does look similar, but it's a lot different. It has roots in Africa and the Islands. When the religion developed here, it was because slaves were forbidden to practice their natural faiths and were forced to conform to Christianity. They adopted many of the Christian saints to represent their Orishas so that when they were praying or offering to their Gods it would appear that they were praying to Christian saints. I'm not sure of a lot of the correlations, but one in particular that I am familiar with is the Catholic Nino de Atocha represents Elegua. Elegua is the Orisha that all practitioners must go through to reach the other Orishas. A practitioner offers certain things to each Orisha they deal with. Elegua LOVES rum and he LOVES cigars. He also is partial to candy.

When someone wants to become part of the Santerian religion, they go through a really extensive and very ritualistic initiation and one specific Orisha will select that person to have a special connection with. Had I decided to continue with my study and practice, Oshun had already selceted me. I opted out for a lot fo different reasons. I loved being around it, though. The drumming, the joy and more specifically the precise way specific work would be carried out. It's a beautiful religion.

It's a really rich and diverse culture, Santeria. I managed a Santerian Botanica for a year and I gained a real appreciation for it.

trumancoyote
10-22-2005, 02:31 AM
Where did you go to learn about it? And were they hesitant to teach you?

scfirenice
10-22-2005, 04:17 AM
Using menstrual blood in those sorts of spells is something I'd consider risky. I mean, one time I used blood from my wagina to hoodoo a man, and it had disasterous kharmic repercussions.

Using your blood as an offering is an interesting idear. I can understand both that and scifire's aversion to it. In ancient Japan, menstruation was considered a filthy thing, a time wherein one should avoid his woman, and it would consequently, I'm sure, be utmost taboo in any sort of magickal workings. But then again, Japan was and is a patriarchal society, so their viewpoint was rarely fair in this type of matter.

I don't have an aversion, I just don't do it. If I need blood I get it from a different source is all. While menstral blood is the stuff of life, the only reason you bleed is because you are not pregnant, the uterus is cleaning itself for the next cycle. I am sure it has its specific uses, I would not use it outside of that purpose.

Sarita
10-22-2005, 08:02 AM
Sara, read The Red Tent. Ooo, I read that. It's one of my favorite books of all time, actually. It's so feminine and proud of it. It made me want to have children. Alas... No kiddies for me. :)

Carole
10-22-2005, 05:47 PM
Where did you go to learn about it? And were they hesitant to teach you?
It was a "quite-by-accident" little thing. I was out of work once when we were living in Orlando. There was this Botanica that hubby & I shopped in and I was just in there wandering around one day, chatting with a girl who worked there and picking up some candles and incense. I told her that I was looking for work and she told me that they were looking for a part timer. She had me write my name and BD on a paper and she took it to the owner who was also a Santerian High Priest. The next week when I was in there, she told me he "read" me and liked me and wanted me to work there so I did.

The girl quit shortly thereafter and I took her place as manager of the shop. That was probably my favorite job ever. The owner is who taught me and encouraged me. He became friends with hubby and the three of us would spend a lot of time just discussing magick. Since I worked there, I was surrounded by it all day long. Oh, the stories I could tell. *grin*

The owner had been initiated in Haiti and was a very powerful practitioner, when he wasn't drunk and/or coked up. Yeah, that was the bad part of the job. Since Santeria actively deals with invoking rather than Evoking, I was a little leary of going forward. It's not something to play around with. My boss respected that and didn't push me to continue when I decided it was not for me. I still worked there and continued to learn about that faith for a year. Hubby and I did readings for customers out of the store and one day it was just time to move on.

I don't recommend anyone trying to get their feet wet with Santeria without having a very strong mentor to guide them. Like I said, it isn't something to toy around with.

trumancoyote
10-26-2005, 02:23 AM
Where could I get more information, Carole? Do you know of any reliable sources?

Carole
10-26-2005, 05:13 AM
Hmmm...I don't know if I have any books around on it, but I'll check. That's a tough question because Santeria is a very Mentor oriented faith. Lemme look around and see what I come up with :)

three seven
10-27-2005, 01:46 AM
The cool thing was the rituals were female only, they used replicas of Pagan gods to break the hyman and offered the blood to that God.Wow, you're right, that is supercool! Do I have to wait til my girls are, like, 16, or can I do it this weekend? Man, I can't wait to see their little faces!

I mean, seriously, what the **** is wrong with you?

Sarita
10-27-2005, 01:49 AM
Wow, you're right, that is supercool! Do I have to wait til my girls are, like, 16, or can I do it this weekend? Man, I can't wait to see their little faces!

I mean, seriously, what the **** is wrong with you? um, Three... She was talking about a FICTION book that described this. I'm pretty sure she meant it was cool that it was historically accurate. This is, indeed, what the people back in the day did.

three seven
10-27-2005, 01:53 AM
This is, indeed, what the people back in the day did.It's not fiction then, is it? And what she said was,
The cool thing was the rituals were female only.

Sarita
10-27-2005, 01:58 AM
The book was fiction. As with most fiction, real life is peppered throughout.

Yes, it was cool that there was a religion that was, almost in its entirety, run by women. What's wrong with thinking that it was cool to have a female-based worship ritual system?

three seven
10-27-2005, 02:08 AM
Sara, I posted the quite twice. Stop avoiding the issue. I'm not saying that all-female religions and all-female rituals aren't cool per se. I'm saying that in the context of ritually worrying a young girl with a statue, they most definitely are NOT cool. And saying "It's fiction" after "It actually happened but..." doesn't make it any less offensive.

I knew I shouldn't have looked in here. I'm going.

Sarita
10-27-2005, 02:15 AM
I just don't see what's wrong with being interested in and knowing what people did regarding sexuality before us. I don't think SC was saying it was "cool" for them to do what they did in the rituals. But I'll leave that up to her to answer.

And if she does think these rituals are cool, do you think it's right for you to come in and criticize her and swear at her? I think there are more effective ways of reasoning with someone. (Need I remind you of rule #1...)

three seven
10-27-2005, 02:27 AM
<responded privately>

Carole
10-27-2005, 03:01 AM
HEY! This is way uncool. Just because you don't happen to understand or agree with someone's spiritual practice or course of study....come ON!

Carole
10-27-2005, 03:08 AM
There are MANY rites of passage that are common to other cultures, and many of those are still actively practiced to this day! Who is ANYONE to discredit them?

We are here to discuss religion...our religion and the faiths of many other cultures. We THOUGHT we weren't going to be ridiculed for having unusual beliefs.

No WONDER the Pagan Thread was dormant when I found AW.

three seven
10-27-2005, 03:08 AM
That's not the case at all Carole. I was objecting to a specific ritual which I found morally reprehensible, and the apparently enthusiastic manner in which the practice, and not the book, was referenced. And as I said, I'm not saying any more about it on this thread. You're free to PM me if you want to discuss it, or you can shout into thin air (I won't hear you), but be assured that I'm not questioning anybody's beliefs.

three seven
10-27-2005, 03:12 AM
We THOUGHT we weren't going to be ridiculed for having unusual beliefs.Don't you dare.

MacAllister
10-27-2005, 03:20 AM
Deep breath, folks.

Carole, no one is ridiculing you or your beliefs--Three has issues with a specific practice. He expressed that in perhaps less-than-diplomatic terms. Nonetheless, he's within his rights to express his discomfort--just as you are within your rights to express yours.

I don't want to step on Sara's toes, as this is her room and I think she does a stellar job. I would like to ask that we ease up on one another just a bit, though.

Carole
10-27-2005, 03:23 AM
Don't you dare.
I dare because YOU dared first..by saying "What the **** is wrong with you?" to SC.

Do you not call that ridicule?

You popped into a thread to post snide comments about a ritual that you don't appreciate. I have read about a lot of different rituals that many today wouldn't dream of. Is there nothing in YOUR life or nothing that YOU appreciate that someone might look at and say, "What the **** is wrong with YOU?"

Sarita
10-27-2005, 03:26 AM
Thanks Mac. No toe stepping going on here.

I think this is something that SC and Three can discuss privately when she comes around again, since he was taking issue with the way in which she expressed herself, if that's okay with both of them.

MacAllister
10-27-2005, 03:27 AM
testing...testing... Is this thing on? Because I would have sworn I just asked everyone to calm down.

Carole
10-27-2005, 03:28 AM
Yeah...sorry Mac. I posted that before I saw what you posted.

MacAllister
10-27-2005, 03:31 AM
Okay. Cool. Let's walk away from this, then. Three and SC can continue their discussion privately, if they wish.

By way of a related topic, there have been some really remarkable results using the placenta lining (http://www.eyeforever.co.kr/uptest/LASEK_AMT.pdf) for healing burns and wounds. I don't think I've ever heard of any specific ritual applications for placentas, or parts of placentas, though.

Carole
10-27-2005, 03:31 AM
Ok..deep breaths here.

I'm extremely offended by what just went on. I probably shot off my mouth a lot more than I should have considering the public nature of the boards.

I have seen a lot of things going on here that I just try my best to stay out of, but this was really close to home.

Sorry for contaminating the thread with even more negativity, Sara.

Mac..I really wasn't ignoring you...witchs' honor :)

Sarita
10-27-2005, 03:34 AM
By way of a related topic, there have been some really remarkable results using placental lining for healing burns and wounds.. I've heard that, too, Mac. I'm going to have to do a lot of reading when the semester is over. A professor just lent me a book of Egyptian spells, from the pyramid texts. He said he thought there was some info in there on menstration rituals, but he wasn't sure. I'll let you guys know what I find out.

scfirenice
10-27-2005, 04:06 AM
Three-Seven

While we have been encouraged to do this privately I will say this here once since you have made your rather inarticulate point public, I feel I have the right to do the same. I DO think it was cool that women did this. NOT against the will of the child. This was not RAPE. It's typical of the male psyche to think that a male should be granted the honor of First Blood. How many husbands take it with the grain of salt, then and now? I would MUCH rather offer the First Blood of MY own daughter to a purpose higher than some man grunting over her. Higher than his pleasure. Woman of the time thought it was appropriate to "Open the Womb" for the man before marriage. They weren't dragging girls to fields against their will. Can as much be said for the men of that time or even now? It involves CHOICE. If my daughter came to me and wanted this done for herself I would be glad and pround to oblige. The man she gives her maidenhead to will likely not honor it. Most men have forgotten, if they ever even knew that this is a GIFT fit for a God. And yes I think it is cool that WOMAN came together despite an overbearing male patriarchy and Chose this for themselves.

MacAllister
10-27-2005, 04:10 AM
I think it's also fairly crucial that we consider the cultural and historical context, as well.

Carole
10-27-2005, 04:19 AM
*Not saying a word...really...just casting an admiring glance at a bright, well studied girl, SC.*

Sarita
10-27-2005, 06:18 AM
I think it's also fairly crucial that we consider the cultural and historical context, as well.I whole heartedly agree. This is part of what I was saying to Three in our personal conversation about this:


They considered this their rite of passage and the only accounts I've read show it in a favorable light...<snip> ...I don't think we can judge them by modern standards. They weren't modern people with modern values.

TeddyG
10-27-2005, 10:06 AM
I am going to jump in here...cause I love stirring the "witch pot" or cauldron or whatever...

Now here is the rule for this post which I am saying straight out...
I do not mind sharing this info with Carole or Sara as I have the utmost respect for their knowledge and know they respect other people and their traditions. However, if anyone else has snide comments keep them to yourself please.

Since everyone is talking of "pagan" rituals and menstrual cycles and blood...maybe this little tidbit of information will be of interest here...
Traditional and Orthodox Jews (throughout the ages) practice as part of religious observance something called "The Laws of Family Purity" or in Hebrew "Taharat Mishpacha". These laws are based upon the woman's menstrual cycle.

Let me see how to put this as short and clear as possible.

During the time a woman has her period, no sexual relations are allowed. And before you jump at that most traditional and orthodox Jews, will not have any sort of physical contact (even hand holding) during this time.

It goes further. A woman who has had her period, must count "seven clean days" after that period and then go to "mikveh" which is a traditional bath, (also ruled by strict laws) before sexual relations can be continued with her husband. (By the way this does not only apply to the Menstrual cycle, but any drop of blood that can be determined to be coming from the womb - thus after birth the same would apply)

These laws are fairly complicated and most traditional women take classes before marriage in order to learn them and all the intricacies involved.
And thus you will find in many Jewish weddings that the bride will go to mikveh 'before" the wedding and the wedding will be planned around her menstrual cycle so as not to fall out during her period.

These laws even apply to birth, for blood of the womb is released there. Please take note that blood in this case is ONLY associated with blood of the womb. If a question needs to be asked as to the source of the blood, there are trained Rabbi's in almost every large Jewish community who can answer such questions.

However, there is also part of these laws that are incumbent upon the husband as well. He must treat his wife during this period with the utmost kindness. And it is, believe it or not, incumbent upon him, to sexually gratify his wife after she does go to mikveh.

Now before I go on here are some URL's in regard to this:
http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_c/bl_niddah.htm

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/_judaism_/8650

http://www.beingjewish.com/cycle/niddah.html

All you need to do is Google "Laws of Family Purity" and you will find a wealth of resources upon it.

Now there are many various philosophical reasons given for this. Going from the fact that it causes a healthy amount of sexual tension between husband and wife, to the fact that the blood of the womb is considered "not pure" for it is in lieu of or in place of the birth of a child. There are a million diff. reasons.

However, one thing is kind of clear. That menstrual blood causes a state where the woman and man must separate...in other words for a time they must act as two individuals and learn to exist together without the benefit of physical contact.

It is highly interesting to note therefore, that the subject of menstrual blood is one which is prevalent in paganism. It seems from what I have read in this thread that it too is associated with a "woman" being a "woman" in charge of her own rituals.

Let me go a bit further. And here I do step out on a limb, but I would hope all are mature enough to handle it. The Kaballah, in certain areas does deal with the women's menstrual cycle and her blood. The deeper kaballah, and many legends discuss "Lilith" a mythical figure who was purported to be the first mate or wife of Adam whom Adam rejected, because as the legend tells us, he saw her being made and thus was "turned off" by her. (And thus the Bible tells us that for Eve, God put Adam to sleep while creating her.)

Lilith becomes the mate of Satan. Satan is actually Sammael, one of the five first ministering Angles, and Sammael revolted and became Satan. Lilith's power, interestingly enough, revolves around her ability to take the blood of the womb e.g. menstrual blood, cast spells upon it, combine it etc. and create great havoc upon the earth with her spells.

I know I have digressed and just gave snippets of certain ideas. However, I do think they are in place here.

If you don't want me to ramble again
just tell me to shut up

Teddy

Sarita
10-27-2005, 04:38 PM
Wow! Teddy, thanks so much for that info. This is the kind of thing I'm looking for, so I can get some leads and research further.

Thanks :)

Sara

Shwebb
10-27-2005, 05:31 PM
Okay, you caught me.

I'm a lurker in these forums. And I'm not going to pretend that I understand the why's and wherefore's of these areas--mostly because I have no frame of reference because of my limited experiences. It's not that I'm searching for answers (because I'm comfortable w/in my own religion and experiences) but I'm always curious, and I love to learn and broaden my knowledge about ideas and other people.

SC, I liked what you said about the hymen ritual. Though others of my religion may call me a heretic for saying it, I think that women are the more powerful of our species, and through the ages, men know on some level and fear us. They force us to believe the act of menstruation is dirty and something to be ashamed of. Even breastfeeding a child, these days, is considered the equivalent to urinating in public! And I had to laugh when Janet Jackson's boob got exposed on national television--oh, the power of a breast!

I do and will continue to respect the sanctity of this space. (But I can't promise to stop lurking!)

Okay . . . In about a month or so, I will have a placenta available. Anyone want it? :)

scfirenice
10-27-2005, 05:46 PM
Don't stop lurking, Shwebb. And feel free to jump in. We are used to people's opinions differing from ours and don't get up in arms about it. Good luck on the birth of your baby and make sure you "flash your breasts" as often as you can when breastfeeding in public. It's a shame we live in a culture that would rather you feed your child MAN made crap rather than natural breastmilk. Maybe breastfeeding makes the breast off limits for the man. Afterall the breast was created for him, right?

Carole
10-27-2005, 06:27 PM
Okay, you caught me.

I'm a lurker in these forums.
Busted! Heehee


SC, I liked what you said about the hymen ritual. Though others of my religion may call me a heretic for saying it, I think that women are the more powerful of our species, and through the ages, men know on some level and fear us. They force us to believe the act of menstruation is dirty and something to be ashamed of.
Ok, hubby agrees with that, or at least that is what he says. When he first started teaching me, he would go on and on about it...how I would get results from following my instincts...the same results he would have a full-blown ritual to acheive. He's never made any bones about women being the more powerful of the species and goes ON to say that he thinks that's a big reason why many men would try to keep women held back..kept quiet.


I do and will continue to respect the sanctity of this space. (But I can't promise to stop lurking!)
I hope you don't stop lurking :)


Okay . . . In about a month or so, I will have a placenta available. Anyone want it? :)
You know, something interesting you may not know is that many vegans have been known to (to this day...I have friends who did this) throw the placenta on the grill and have a bbq and eat it. (Yes, you heard right, and I don't even know where this falls in the cannibalism thing). The placenta is the only flesh that is obtained without harming another creature, so it is deemed suitable to eat. NOT by all. But definitely by some.

scfirenice
10-27-2005, 07:40 PM
And I thought the placental tea was a bad idea.....

Carole
10-27-2005, 07:43 PM
:ROFL:

MacAllister
10-27-2005, 07:50 PM
Maybe breastfeeding makes the breast off limits for the man. Afterall the breast was created for him, right?
I think you're on the right track with this. The breast is sexualized in our society--and I suspect the in-your-face reminder that breasts are not created primarily for pleasure--but for actual nourishment--makes some people very uncomfortable.

Children can be sustained on breastmilk for rather a long time.

I also suspect there's a weird competition thing that goes on.

Shwebb
10-27-2005, 07:51 PM
No, thanks, Carole! (But did they ever tell you what it tastes like?)

Dammit! If I were a cat, I'd be dead by now. . .

And SC, to make the placental tea, please tell me it's at least drunk cooked!

(If you bite your fingernails, does that make you a cannibal, too?)

Carole
10-27-2005, 08:08 PM
No, thanks, Carole! (But did they ever tell you what it tastes like?)

Dammit! If I were a cat, I'd be dead by now. . .

And SC, to make the placental tea, please tell me it's at least drunk cooked!

(If you bite your fingernails, does that make you a cannibal, too?)
Well, they *said* it tasted like liver. Yeah, I'm not a fan of liver, either. Ick. I dunno. It's not for me to judge. They have a point.

TeddyG
10-27-2005, 08:15 PM
I think you're on the right track with this. The breast is sexualized in our society--and I suspect the in-your-face reminder that breasts are not created primarily for pleasure--but for actual nourishment--makes some people very uncomfortable.

Children can be sustained on breastmilk for rather a long time.

I also suspect there's a weird competition thing that goes on.

Ohhhhhhhhhhh the lines I could write here...
i promise to be good...
i promise to be good...
i promise to be good...
i promise to be good...

Anyways...I think that saying the "breast" was sexualized in our society (where it was certainly sexualized in Babylonian Greek and Roman society as well and in many others) may be kind of simplifying it. Each one of the sexual organs on the body does perform another function and usually a critical one at that.

Even lips are sexual and certainly "sexualized" in our society. They are used to eat, so would that make one uncomfy kissing the lips of another?

I don't deny breasts are great for pleasure (and if I did you would just grunt and call me a liar). But the fact that breasts are also used to feed the child, is not a turn-off. Why would it be? I know lips have to eat, I know i must urinate with my penis...this does not take away from the sexuality of these organs. At least I would hope not. Breasts supply children with their mothers milk. Okay...why is that going to make me uncomfortable? I fail to see the connection.

Now as to the weird competition....
okay I will behave...promise..it is real hard..but I am trying

Teddy

Shwebb
10-27-2005, 08:16 PM
I think you can still think it "icky" without judging someone.

Blood pudding and blood sausage don't appeal to me, either, but I know that some people think they're great!

There might have been a time I'd have tried stuff like that, but I guess I've let myself get too old. Okay, I don't know that I would eat my own placenta. I might, however, be persuaded to try a cow's placenta, or something. But I don't see the placenta as being something to be merely discarded, though. (Although what the hospital will do w/ it is beyond me.) I can see treating it tenderly and giving it a burial in honor of sustaining my child while in my womb.

Carole
10-27-2005, 08:21 PM
I can see treating it tenderly and giving it a burial in honor of sustaining my child while in my womb.
There's a beautiful ritual involving planting a tree and burying the placenta at it's base in honor of the child.

Carole
10-27-2005, 08:24 PM
Breasts supply children with their mothers milk. Okay...why is that going to make me uncomfortable? I fail to see the connection.

Now as to the weird competition....
okay I will behave...promise..it is real hard..but I am trying

Teddy
A lot of men have problems with this. Some, because there is a jealousy thing over the fact that the mother is naturally equipped to nourish the child and he isn't. Yes, I know that some men have been capable of it, but the norm is that they can't. The other problem i am aware of is that suddenly those breasts that were so much fun for the dad, are now off limits and *belong* to the child instead.

TeddyG
10-27-2005, 08:31 PM
A lot of men have problems with this. Some, because there is a jealousy thing over the fact that the mother is naturally equipped to nourish the child and he isn't. Yes, I know that some men have been capable of it, but the norm is that they can't. The other problem i am aware of is that suddenly those breasts that were so much fun for the dad, are now off limits and *belong* to the child instead.

Carole..what you are writing here may be true though I certainly never heard that. Though divorced, I have 6 kids. (Yeppers..six, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 okay where did that last one go to?)

My ex nursed each and every one. Never had that feeling I must say. Never heard it being expressed by anyone I know...(but then guys don't talk about such things, right?)

Actually, the fact that the woman who had a child with me, is now nourishing that child is one hell of a turn-on...not something to be uncomfy about. Jealousy over the breast? Maybe i have to read a bit more psychology....

Okay the breasts are off limits but -
"breasts does not a whole woman make"

but this is just a side point i guess...
sorry but the whole placenta thing makes me a bit queasy...i dont mind admitting it...

Teddy

Shwebb
10-27-2005, 08:34 PM
Do you think that men could have "breast envy" the way they claim women have "penis envy?"

Personally, I've never wanted one except for the convenience of standing up to pee (and on another thread there was a strange-looking solution for THAT).

I must say that lactating breasts can be a great deal of fun. This might be TMI, but I once chased my husband through the house with them. (I found I could be pretty accurate with a little bit of practice!) My husband was simultaneously amused and disconcerted.

scfirenice
10-27-2005, 08:39 PM
I think that the whole breast thing is a turn on to some men, but lets face it hearing "Move over kid and share" when you are a post partum milk cow does not make for romance in my book. I think the overall problem is that women don't feel sexual for a while after the birth of a child. Oh they may force it to keep hubby happy, but it's not a natural feeling with all the other things going on in your body. I remember my husband wanting to fondle my breasts not long after my delivery and I went mega postal on him. Poor guy. But if you mess with them too much the milk lets down and that does not feel real good unless there is a baby there willing to ease the pressure. I am NOT breastfeeding a grown man...
Shwebb, the hospital will throw your placenta away and a company will incinerate it. (I'm a labor and delivery nurse)

Shwebb
10-27-2005, 08:54 PM
SC, you just should have aimed your nipples at him and fired! :)

When I was pregnant w/ my first child, we watched a tape on breastfeeding. My husband was very uncomfortable with the whole thing, but at the same time knew it was best for our baby. Now that #3 is impending, he's not only comfortable with it, he's a staunch defender of nursing.

I do have a love/hate thing w/ my breasts, though. Mostly because they are just too big, especially when pregnant and even more so when nursing. During my last postpartum they became so big my hands went numb and the feeling didn't come back completely for months. I have to fight the desire to "pump 'em down to size," because that only makes things worse in the long run.

But I do feel more powerful when I'm pregnant and nursing than at any other time. And I feel sorry for men, that they can't even imagine what the experience is like.

SC, I wish you were working in this area! I'm sure the L & D nurses could learn a thing or two from you! (We're so backward where I live!)

Carole
10-27-2005, 09:59 PM
OMG, I can rememeber standing in a hot shower not long after my older son was born...I was SO engorged...it was so painful. When that hot water hit them it was like someone turned on the milk faucet. Didn't even have to touch them, it just flowed on its own.

scfirenice
10-27-2005, 11:15 PM
Yeah that's fun....
Shwebb, I'd travel but you're hiding and not really there...

astonwest
10-28-2005, 04:34 AM
A lot of men have problems with this.
Me thinketh there's a bit of stereotyping of "a lot of men" based on one's experience...but that's just me...

I've known quite a number of men who had no problem with their wives breastfeeding...for many of the same reasons, I would imagine, that Teddy offered.

<<Heading back to lurk mode>>

scfirenice
10-28-2005, 05:24 AM
oh gods, here we go again.....

Carole didn't say "all men" she said "alot of men." Now me beign privey to alot of breastfeeding ladies due to the fact I am a labor and delivery nurse know that many men are put off by breastfeeding. They say the right words, but look away and shoo others away when the breast pops out. Most of these same men get over it and come to be staunch breastfeeding supporters like Schwebbs hubby, but not all. Some men go so far as to say "that's gross" when mommy latches baby on. Now this is not ALL men, my hubby while he mourned the loss of his favorite toys supported me to no end.

Carole
10-28-2005, 05:46 AM
Oh for Gods' sake! Ok, Terry Cox, JAY cox JIM Cox, Louis Conner, Bradley Bird, Every single man who was at the party my ex and I had years ago who gagged when I nursed my son UNDER a baby blanket, thanks, and IN my own home. The man in the restaurant who, to this DAY I remember glaring at me when, again, I very discreetly nursed my son. My DAD, Three of my uncles, every uncle of my ex who was at the Christmas shindig who NOT so politely TOLD my then-sister in law to go to a bedroom *to do that* beacuse it wasn't something you did in polite company (?!)

I could go on....and on....AND on.

Carole
10-28-2005, 05:49 AM
This is not a new thing. If the majority of men think it is perfectly normal and healthy and are NOT grossed out by it or made uncomfortable, then they are really being quiet about it and putting on a very different face around the nursing mother.

scfirenice
10-28-2005, 05:50 AM
*snickers* *leaves*

Carole
10-28-2005, 05:56 AM
*snickers* *leaves*
~laughing~ I'm sorry...I *HAD* no idea where that all came from...now I do....Oi VEY!

P.S. I put the apostrophe after the s on Gods just for you, my lil chickadee!

scfirenice
10-28-2005, 06:12 AM
Thanks babe for that. Sorry about the uh..unfortunate magickal side effects.....

Carole
10-28-2005, 06:47 AM
Uh, yeah. I gotta live with it now, though..huh. Oh well. Like I was saying, maybe it is for the best. *shrugs* at least he is all nice and peaceful and calm. He never gets that when he is out of town.

Carole
10-28-2005, 07:47 AM
Oh goodness. Another day, another 1/2 a chapter. I really have to do better tomorrow. Is there a three step program for AW??

Sleep well and Be well my Pagan pretties *and* lurkers whom I yelled at but didn't mean to...honest...really....this witch is just havin' a rough night ;)


nighty night, neverland.......

TeddyG
10-28-2005, 12:09 PM
Me thinketh there's a bit of stereotyping of "a lot of men" based on one's experience...but that's just me...

I've known quite a number of men who had no problem with their wives breastfeeding...for many of the same reasons, I would imagine, that Teddy offered.

<<Heading back to lurk mode>>

me thinks it is one of those "female" things actually....which of course I have long given up trying to understand....I have been well-trained to accept them as truths..cause I know that women do rule our world...(I kid you not! :) :flag: )

As to Carole's listing of men ...in all seriousness..
I think it is a "culture" thing....
You come to Israel, or Europe, even in the most "sophisticated" cities, you will find women nursing their children, behind blankets or coverlets, in restaurants, cafes, parks etc. No one bats an eyelash....

I honestly dont think this is a male-female thing....i think it is a "culture" thing

(Now werent we talking about some sort of weird competition, before we got rudely sidetracked?)

Teddy

Carole
10-28-2005, 02:55 PM
me thinks it is one of those "female" things actually....which of course I have long given up trying to understand....I have been well-trained to accept them as truths..cause I know that women do rule our world...(I kid you not! :) :flag: )


I'm gonna be quiet and pass this one off to someone else....:Ssh:

TeddyG
10-28-2005, 03:28 PM
I'm gonna be quiet and pass this one off to someone else....:Ssh:

Checks Carole for temperture....:hooray: :snoopy:

Carole
10-28-2005, 04:28 PM
Carole's temp shot through the roof there for a sec, so she decided to just be quiet & drink coffee instead *grin*

Shwebb
10-28-2005, 05:55 PM
Speaking of breastfeeding and different cultures:

A friend of mine once told me about a rather primitive tribe from somewhere, where the women would wrap each breast in order to stretch them into something resembling long bananas. They would carry their babies on their backs--and when the babies were hungry, the women would toss a boob over their shoulders!

When told that men in other countries liked breasts, the women giggled and said, "What? They like them? Are they like little babies?"

Carole
10-28-2005, 06:24 PM
Are they like little babies?"
................................

scfirenice
10-29-2005, 01:10 AM
*snickers*
Oh my... I didn't have to wrap my breasts in anything and I could do THAT.....

Carole
10-29-2005, 03:54 AM
*snif...snifsnif*...SC-doooo, where ARE you?

scfirenice
10-29-2005, 05:09 AM
Here. *raises hand like good little girl.*

Carole
10-29-2005, 05:19 AM
*like* a good little girl...who you been takin lessons from?

scfirenice
10-29-2005, 05:26 AM
uuuuh. um. You? Maybe, um. I dunno.

Robin
11-01-2005, 09:13 AM
(falls out of the lurkers' closet)

I went looking for more menstrual rituals on the internet- there has to be more than voodoo sex charms! And I found this site:

http://www.yoni.com/wombmoon/wmtips.shtml

"I made myself a menstrual coloring book from images in books that were powerful to me- copied them onto heavy watercolor type paper at the local copy shop and punched holes in the edges and bound with red ribbon. Every month when I am on my heaviest bleeding day, I light candles and sit in front of my altar, meditate, take time for me, and paint in my coloring book with my menstrual blood. I squat over an empty film canister to collect my bloods, but a menstrual cup inserted into the vagina works better. You can buy these at the drug store. (But I don't like putting plastic into my Yoni.) After the blood is collected, I use a special brush that is for nothing else, and paint a sacred picture in my coloring book, sometimes two or three depending on how inspired I am. I make them into spells by adding words and my intentions.
Anothertip: A friend of mine told me that she read somewhere that there are four phases associated with the four days of bleeding- First day is Reflection (looking back on the month), second day is Projection (your plans for the month ahead), third day is Purification (the heaviest blood has usually passed by now and it is time for cleansing), fourth day is Celebration (need I say more?) Thought this was a nice way to be with your cycle."

Going to curl up with some Aleve and a heating pad,
Robin

scfirenice
11-01-2005, 11:32 PM
You lurkers should de-lurk more often! Interesting quote, Robin. I like the 4 days thing except I'd have to add like to more steps...hahahaha.

Carole
11-01-2005, 11:36 PM
You lurkers should de-lurk more often! Interesting quote, Robin. I like the 4 days thing except I'd have to add like to more steps...hahahaha.
Me, too. I'd need six steps.

scfirenice
11-01-2005, 11:42 PM
There should be a day in there for murdering hapless spouses and maybe one for feeling bad about it or something....

Carole
11-01-2005, 11:44 PM
I need a day for chocolate.

scfirenice
11-01-2005, 11:46 PM
oh absolutely. Good call. Meditate on all the pleasures of chocolates while contemplating the various virtues of the many types.

Carole
11-02-2005, 01:02 AM
Theraputic, indeed! Hubby is so great (when he's home) about just knowing. He'll go out to Blockbuster or something and come home with a Dove dark chocolate bar for me. Usually he'll grin and say something like, "Here, Sweetie...you're gonna be wanting this soon." If I look at him funny, he'll just say, "Trust me"

Shwebb
11-02-2005, 01:42 AM
Before I had my first kid, I thought it was great to go w/out having a period. Until after the baby was born. Boy, I bled a year's worth in a couple of weeks. I'd rather have periods, any day. (But I also got a bit spoiled during my infertile years; I'd have maybe one or two a year!)

Sorry, but I won't be doing any painting w/ it, either, any time soon. :)

I don't mean to offend, but it just fits in my head like something I might see on Martha Stewart's show. Yeah, THAT's why it's striking me as funny.

Can you imagine, the melding of pagan and Martha? What would Martha do w/ that idea? Placemats? Name Cards? A table cloth? A lovely designer shirt?

Robin
11-02-2005, 02:54 AM
:ROFL:

I went for years without a period too- on Depo. Then I had a tubal after last baby. Nobody told me how bad PMS would be after a tubal. Or maybe it was just that I'd forgotten what cramps were like. Oww.

Robin

Shwebb
11-02-2005, 03:19 AM
I get absolutely weepy the day before my period. And I never see it coming, either! Something will upset me, and I'll start to cry. But on the inside, I'm thinking, "But I'm not THIS upset about (whatever). Why am I crying so hard?"

I get the answer the next day, usually . . .

Carole
11-02-2005, 04:14 AM
:ROFL:

I went for years without a period too- on Depo. Then I had a tubal after last baby. Nobody told me how bad PMS would be after a tubal. Or maybe it was just that I'd forgotten what cramps were like. Oww.

Robin
No one told me, either. When I asked my doctor, he said I was mistaken. Ha! Yeah, right! I never used Depo. I also never had pms until after I had the tubal ligation. I swear. My ex used to comment on how I was the only female he had even known that didn't get moody, didn't crave chocolate, didn't get cramps, nothing. After the tubal, I did. Splain THAT, Mr Doctor! He just told me that I must have never noticed it before. Oh, yeah! Why didn't I think of that? Cramps that make you bedridden with a heating pad while sucking on a tootsie roll are definitely something I could have overlooked in the past. ~laughing~

scfirenice
11-02-2005, 05:16 AM
I don't get cramps or anything. I get the runs though and do crave chocolate and become mildly homocidal.

Carole
11-02-2005, 06:06 AM
That's just a lovely visual, there, SC

scfirenice
11-02-2005, 06:13 AM
Thanks babe. hee hee. I'm thinking the basting didn't take. Any thoughts?

Carole
11-02-2005, 06:59 AM
Thoughts are: I don't know the reason you have to go through the basting, but this is what I get. What I see is a departure from that. When it works, it will probably not be from basting. There's more....

scfirenice
11-02-2005, 06:20 PM
The reason??? I have a "hostile uterine environment" (my girls kill his guys) Go figure. I also have endometriosis.

Shwebb
11-02-2005, 07:00 PM
SC, I saw your little girl on your profile. What a cutie!

Are you referring to the ol' turkey baster, or am I way off?

scfirenice
11-03-2005, 04:57 AM
Nope the old Turkey baster is correct only it costs a fortune and isn't exactly like Grandma's. That's how my daughter came to be.

Shwebb
11-03-2005, 05:46 AM
I'm so glad you have your daughter, then. I was infertile for eight years, and it's a heartbreaking experience. I had a doctor try Clomid on me, and we went through two cycles and he said it would never work--I'd have to have the shots. Which are prohibitively expensive, and not covered by insurance. So I'd just resigned myself to never being a mom.

NOT so infertile now, though.

Hated the reaction of my relatives, both before and after the infertility. Everyone thought I felt bad every time someone else got pregnant. I didn't. Everyone had tips on what I should do--herbs, diet--my husband's grandmother told me I needed to "climb on top!"

I have an aunt who is four years older than I who has never been able to conceive. When my grandmother found out I was pregnant for the first time, she said, "Well, I don't know how Loretta is going to take this!" Like I was a traitor by getting pregnant. Weird.

scfirenice
11-03-2005, 05:49 AM
Yeah, weird. I tried for three years with Jenna and got preggars with the first basting. This time...we'll see.