Depression's Inner dialog?

KellyAssauer said:

I know it exists (I've heard my own) but how 'normal' is the spinning inner dialog in cases of major depression episodes?

To rephrase:

Is it consistent with major depression symptomatology to describe the subject's thought process as a constant internal berating along the lines of a mantra similar to: "I'm no good, not worthy, useless, faliure, etc."
yes, they are called cognitive distortions
The characterzation that I've been assuming is that my M-MC's thought process is it's own intellectual argument with himself - not to suggest psychotic features - but as if it's more of an internal thought struggle...
yes, negative self talk is common. "an intellectual argument" is the basis of cognitive therapy, in some sense
And if that's not an impossible enough question?

During major depression episodes would it be 'acceptable'
for the subject to use avoidance behavior when confronted
with situations that might demand her/his responsible action?
absolutely- isolation is a feature of depression as is avoidance
Professional or personal responses welcome as replies or PMs.

Many Thanks!

-Kelly

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Everything you suggest is typical of someone suffering from major depressive disorder.

ETA- Cognitive therapy is particularly helpful in combatting cognitive distortions, but when a patient has major depression, nothing seems like a good idea and nothing seems like it will work.

Well I'm a manic depressive with psychotic features, so a constant inner dialogue of negativity is about right IMO.

It's acceptable for avoidance, or antisocial behaviors. In fact it is a given. People with depression withdraw or remove themselves from any problematic issues. It's a natural and normal instinct to have.

Not sure if that answers your question. Just my thoughts on the matter. Your story sounds interesting already Kelly girl. have you posted it anywhere? I would like to read an excerpt if you have it available here.

Burns is a guru! He's an oldie but goodie.

Absolutely you are! And who in the hell would say that's not what people think? How would anyone know what people are thinking inside their heads? That's a moronic statement. That's like saying, "No, you are not thinking that way." LOL

I will check it out when I can, thanks.

You've got it down pat. Even when one does something 'good', or deals with a problem, the thought is "I could've done it better" or "Why didn't I do it this way instead, that would've worked easier".

Nothing is ever good enough. Ever.

And avoidance is continual - even getting up in the morning becomes a fight. Getting up means OMG! - having to interact with something! Anything!

Ain't fun...

When I struggled with it, it was mostly "you really should do this and that [exercise, see a doctor, talk to someone] to help with this" and the response was always "it's not worth it. It won't work. There's no point in trying." No professional analysis here, just my experience.

I had really bad ruminating thoughts that only really went away with an antidepressant. Then they just kind of went poof! Gone.

I still had to work on other issues involved in depression, but those thoughts never stopping was practically intolerable. When I was really depressed, I could see a pretty flower growing and immediately think, "It's going to die." For me, the hardest part was that the thoughts came of their own accord.

I was trying to be as positive as possible, but something in my neurotransmitters just kept giving me very little to work with

I tried to avoid being alone, actually. Other people laughing and keeping my mind occupied with what they were saying was better by far than listening to my abnormal neurons! I was constantly trying to drown them out with any other kind of thought, but that's very tiring in itself.

I've PMd you, OP.

And made a note to look for your excerpts in Literary SYW - I'd be very interested to read it too. A very important topic, and very sad that people don't believe people really think like that

Hah, avoidance? Too right. It took me years to realise that all the 'reasons' I had for not leaving the house were excuses masking the fact that I was afraid to go out. Actually I had to go out today and experienced a panic attack in the supermarket. Lovely! I think for me the worst of it is that non-sufferers have no idea of the effort involved in doing anything. They just think you're lazy for not doing more. NO IDEA.

And yeah, the eternal dialogue is spot on. Not to mention, why are you writing this? it's no good, nobody's ever going to want to read it, it'll never sell...

STFU

Lapinou said:

A very important topic, and very sad that people don't believe people really think like that

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I bet this wouldn't be the type of people who would purchase the book anyway. I think it's hard for the average person to understand---really understand---depression, because what it reads like on paper can't capture the intensity of how it feels.

I also found that a lot my thoughts were in "should" statements. Then I'd beat myself up for not doing the things I "should." And when faced with a semi-challenging task, I'd get totally overwhelmed and think, "I can't face this." I'd go to bed and read.

I was very much an avoider. Things were just too big to deal with. I couldn't bear to even look at the bills. I wouldn't bear to consider anything proactive. Had to get my license renewed? Unbearable.

I read one self-help book where they talked about the incredible laziness of depression. I'm not sure I like the use of the word "laziness," but the author's example was good. She lived in Florida and they got a hurricane warning. She had to do all sorts of things to protect her house--close the shutters, etc. She couldn't bring herself to do it.

Ooh, bills and things are a very good point. That made me remember I had just started college and lived in the dorms, so I didn't have the same responsibilities that I'd have now (although I did work, too). While I was 'social' to try to outrun or tune out my demons, I had a few minor problems in class that I couldn't bear to address for some reason.

I let my religion professor give me an F rather than explain why the final project he gave was just too personal and impossible for me right then. And he was wonderful. He totally would have worked with me (he was just trying to make Jung more interesting; it didn't have to be personal). But I didn't want to think about any of it because of the personal parts.

And I had a Spanish professor that required some sort of coming to her office after hours to talk personally that also went toward a grade. I skipped that and got a zero on it.

I could do the 'outrunning' if it wasn't personal. Anything bumping directly up against explaining myself or opening up and it was just not happening. There were definitely huge, important issues I avoided to my own detriment. It sank my GPA to nearly impossible-to-fix levels, and school was my saving grace back then.

When I struggled with depression and body dysmorphic disorder in my 20's, I had the script. As intelligent people we believe that the way to overcome hardship is by thinking our way through it, but when it comes to depression, the trick is in NOT thinking. It's a hard thing to train yourself not to think, to block out that script and just live, but that is the way I, and most people, have gotten through depression. If you've read Ned Vizzini's It's Kind of A Funny Story, the end of the book really hits this point home.

All my bad days are bracketed by anger. At myself? At others? Makes no difference because I truly don't think of our selves as independent. We're social in a primal, essential way, and the construction of our reality is interdependent.

Yeah, sounds depressed to me. Just remember that the depression is as clever as the person experiencing it. Not just a Johnny OneNote, as soon as you come up with an answer to it's line, it can come up with a new thread of thought. Though as will all things, the depression may have its own ups and downs where it is noisier and quieter.

The only non drug relief I am aware of is from Eckhart Tolle, who advocates being present, and not identifying with the chatter in your head. Focus on your conciousness, not on the thoughts rattling around in your head. Meditation is his primary tool. Awareness is his secondary tool.

brainstrains said:

As intelligent people we believe that the way to overcome hardship is by thinking our way through it, but when it comes to depression, the trick is in NOT thinking. It's a hard thing to train yourself not to think, to block out that script and just live, but that is the way I, and most people, have gotten through depression.

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+1

rosehips said:

I read one self-help book where they talked about the incredible laziness of depression. I'm not sure I like the use of the word "laziness," but the author's example was good. She lived in Florida and they got a hurricane warning. She had to do all sorts of things to protect her house--close the shutters, etc. She couldn't bring herself to do it.

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Yeah, laziness isn't really a good word. "Overwhelming" is more accurate. Even deciding between a quart versus a gallon of milk could turn into a near-panic situation for me... so I wouldn't go to the store.

LaceWing said:

All my bad days are bracketed by anger. At myself? At others? Makes no difference because I truly don't think of our selves as independent. We're social in a primal, essential way, and the construction of our reality is interdependent.

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I quite like the phrase, "Depression is anger turned inward." I agree that depression has a rage component to it. In my case it was almost entirely turned inward, but I know in others it can have a much more outward expression. Someone who is angry all the time is likely depressed.

Have you ever seen the movie, Crash? Sandra Bullock plays a character who eventually admits on the phone to a friend that she's angry all the time and doesn't know why. They never spell it out in the movie, but my take is, she's suffering from depression.

Oh, yeah, I have seen Crash, but I wasn't watching for that component of it. If I ever have the chance to see it again, rosehips, I'll watch Bullock's role more closely.

I'm seeing a pattern here of resisting obligation and expectation. It could be (said that) my depression is speaking, but I have a major bitch with a world that seems mainly to watch out for reasons to punish more than opportunities to reward.

rosehips said:

I quite like the phrase, "Depression is anger turned inward."

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Some of that is referred to as "stuffing". We're (generic 'we') angry at the way we get treated (by family, friends, bosses, society) but we don't have the self-confidence to speak up, defend ourselves, or stop being doormats. We know we should speak up, and berate ourselves because we don't. Then we argue with ourselves because maybe we don't because these people are right. But they're not right. Are they? Maybe. No, they're not. I'm weak because I don't speak up! But... they aren't totally wrong... or maybe they are. Or maybe they're totally right and I am worthless. If I weren't worthless, I'd defend myself. Wouldn't I?...

and on and on...

rosehips said:

I quite like the phrase, "Depression is anger turned inward." I agree that depression has a rage component to it. In my case it was almost entirely turned inward, but I know in others it can have a much more outward expression. Someone who is angry all the time is likely depressed.

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I think that's an overgeneralization--even though it probably fits a percentage of depressed people.
Depression isn't one illness- there are dozens of different types and reasons for depression-- some biological, some situational. There are levels of depression ranging from non-clinical to dysthymia to major depression, as well as depression that occurs with conditions like BiPolar disorder or depression resulting from medical conditions/surgery.

In children, anger can be a symptom of depression- they often manifest depression different than adults. Someone who's angry all the time could have poor impulse control or a personality disorder or poor coping skills or any number of problems, including depression.

Laziness is not an appropriate word for a state where the thought 'I need to get up and go across the room and switch off the tv' is not acted upon because the connection with the motor regions of the brain is simply broken. It's something of a surprise when it first happens to you, to say the least. Of course, it LOOKS lazy from the outside. Sometimes I wish everyone could experience five minutes of depression just so they would be a little more sympathetic.