What does Noah Lukeman know that we may want to pay attention to...

rsullivan9597 · Mar 22, 2011

If you don't know who Noah Lukeman is you should. He is one of the top agents in the industry and a writer whose books are the foundation of many college courses on writing including:

The First Five Pages
A Dash of Style
The Plot Thickens
How to Land (and Keep) a Literary Agent
The Art of Punctuation

If you are still on the Query-Go-Round, I HIGHLY recommend his short ebook (which he gives away for free as a way of "giving back" to the writing community): How to Write a Winning Query Letter where he analyzes and condenses the pearls of wisdom from the 10,000 queries he's reviewed as one of the top Literary Agents.

Speaking of being an agent...did I mention he's top notch? Here are some of the Awards for books he's represented:

Pulitzer Prize winner Tom Hallman (Sam: The Boy Behind the Mask)
National Book Award Finalist Dan Chaon (Among the Missing)
New York Times 2009 Notable book of the Year Dan Chaon (Await Your Reply)
Edgar Award Finalist Joe Jackson (Leavenworth Train)
Edgar Award Finalist Victor Gischler (Gun Monkeys)
Christian Science Monitor names The Work of Wolves a Noteworthy Book
Christian Science Monitor names You Remind me of Me a Noteworthy Book
Detroit Free Press names John Smolens' Fire Point a Best Book of the year
New York City Book Award Winner Subway Style
Minnesota Book Awards Finalist Kent Meyers (The Work of Wolves)
ALA Alex Award winner Kent Meyers (The Work of Wolves)
Great Lakes Book Award Finalist John Smolens (Fire Point)
Publishers Weekly names The Art of the Interview one of the Best Books of the Year
California Book Award Gold Medal John L'Heureux (The Miracle)
AAAS Book Award in Prose Brian Ascalon Roley (American Son)
Detroit Free Press names The Outfit one of the 20 Best Books of the Year
Publishers Weekly names The Miracle one of the Best Books of the Year
B&N Discover Great New Writers Laura Denham (Have you Seen Me?)
Great Lakes Finalist John Smolens (Cold)
Los Angeles Times Best Books of the Year Brian Ascalon Roley (American Son)
Pacific Rim Finalist Brian Ascalon Roley (American Son)
Foreword Magazine Award Best Book of the Year G.K. Wuori (An American Outrage)
New York Times Notable Book of the Year John L'Heureux (The Miracle)
New York Times Notable Book of the Year Brian Ascalon Roley (American Son)
New York Times Notable Book of the Year Dan Chaon (Among the Missing)
American Book Award Winners John and Russell Rickford (Spoken Soul)
New York Times Notable Book of the Year Kent Meyers (Light in the Crossing)
B&N Discover Great New Writers Kent Meyers (River Warren)
PEN/West Finalist Kent Meyers (Witness of Combines)
Minnesota State Book Award Kent Meyers (Witness of Combines)
PEN/Hemingway Finalist Steve Lattimore (Circumnavigation)
New York Times Notable Book of the Year Steve Lattimore (Circumnavigation)
NABE Award for Best Book of the Year Brenda Shoshanna (Journey Through Illness)

So this is my way of saying..."this guy knows the business" and how to pick winners. So all that is nice but why is he on my blog? Well the last two deals that he posted on Publisher's Lunch were for:

R.J. Jagger's LAWYER TRAP
D.B. Henson's DEED TO DEATH

What do these two books have in common other than the author likes using two initials instead of first names? They were both previously self-published. Oh...and BTW HE went to D.B. Henson she did not query him. Yes, he sought her out not the other way around. (I have no idea about R.J.) Hmm...what can we surmise from this?

blacbird · Mar 23, 2011

I met Noah Lukeman at a conference some years ago. Very nice guy, pleasant, polite. Impeccable track record. But methinks highly commercial in orientation, much like Donald Maass, whom I also have met and have a similar opinion of. So if you're aiming for high-concept blockbuster best-seller things, Lukeman would certainly be someone to pay attention to.

If you're stuff is more specialized, niche/literary, etc., maybe not so much.

I could be wrong. Happens once in a while.

Terie · Mar 23, 2011

rsullivan9597 said:
What do these two books have in common other than the author likes using two initials instead of first names? They were both previously self-published. Oh...and BTW HE went to D.B. Henson she did not query him. Yes, he sought her out not the other way around. (I have no idea about R.J.) Hmm...what can we surmise from this?

JK Rowling and Stephanie Meyer wrote some kids' books that turned them into multi-millionaires. Hmm...what can we surmise from this?

What I surmise from here and other posts is that you seem to have a penchant for looking at the exceptions and trying to make rules out of them.

The vast majority of self-published writers will not get a top-flight agent come looking for them.

Exactly like the vast majority of kids' book writers (raises hand) will not earn multi-millions from their books.

blacbird · Mar 23, 2011

Terie said:
The vast majority of self-published writers will not get a top-flight agencome looking for them.

Exactly like the vast majority of kids' book writers (raises hand) will not earn multi-millions from their books.

The vast majority of any kinds of writers will not get a top-flight agent come looking for them.

The vast majority of any kinds of writers will not earn multi-millions from their books.

The vast majority of any kinds of writers will not even get traditionally published.

Phaeal · Mar 23, 2011

I would surmise that Mr. Lukeman had hired you for his PR agent, except I don't think he needs one.

Anne Lyle · Mar 23, 2011

Lukeman's well-known books are certainly a good place for aspiring writers to start improving their craft. This year I've given away my copy of "The First Five Pages" on my blog and am currently giving away* "The Plot Thickens" - not because they're bad, but because they're basic enough that I have already absorbed the advice and want to pay it forward.

As for the self-pub thing - yawn. I'm not self-pubbing, so I don't care how he gets his clients.

* Sorry, giveaway is UK/EU only, as I'm paying the postage out of my own pocket

Sheryl Nantus · Mar 23, 2011

rsullivan9597 said:
Hmm...what can we surmise from this?

That you really, really want to keep pushing self-publishing over traditional publishing?

Got the memo. Thanks.

*yawns*

Jamesaritchie · Mar 23, 2011

rsullivan9597 said:
They were both previously self-published. Oh...and BTW HE went to D.B. Henson she did not query him. Yes, he sought her out not the other way around. (I have no idea about R.J.) Hmm...what can we surmise from this?

What can we surmise from this? Nothing at all, except that a writer wrote a book he really liked. What, do you think he would have said no to the book had it been queried like any other?

If you look at a self-published book that an agent likes as a reason to self-publish, then you;re forced by simple logic to look at the thousands of books agents take on with traditional queries as that many more reasons not to self-publish.

Even Lukeman is an example of this. You list a long string of fabulous books that were not self-published, and that he did not seek out, and one self-published book that he did.

If you want to surmise anything from this, it should be that You stand very, very little chance of attracting any agent's attention by self-publishing. Go with the loooonnnng string and ignore the single example.

IceCreamEmpress · Mar 23, 2011

What can we surmise from this? That the pinnacle of success in the self-publishing arena is to be picked up by an agent or editor in the commercial publishing world, and that a handful of people reach that goal every year.

Me, I'm lazy, so "querying agents directly" and "querying publishers directly" generally seems like the best plan to me. I have self-published and micropublished (for projects where that was the best fit) and it's hard work--if I want to come to a NY agent or NY publisher's attention, I like the old-school way the best.

Tracey Taylor · Mar 23, 2011

rsullivan9597 said:
What do these two books have in common other than the author likes using two initials instead of first names? They were both previously self-published. Oh...and BTW HE went to D.B. Henson she did not query him. Yes, he sought her out not the other way around. (I have no idea about R.J.) Hmm...what can we surmise from this?

I think what we can surmised is that even though they're self-published what they really want is to be traditionally published. It's the same way with Amanda Hocking. She had a lot of success with self-publishing she now wants to be traditionally published.

Sure, I could go the same route, self-publish my current novels and then from there try and get an agent so that I can sell my novels to a traditional publisher. But why would I want to waste all that time when right now I can start querying agents? By not self-publishing it seems like I'm jumping over a huge step that could take up a lot of my time and energy.

Susan Coffin · Mar 23, 2011

I would surmise that you like Mr. Lukeman very much.

I have heard wonderful things about him as well. He really is one good agent.

However, I would say Mr. Lukeman is the except rather than the rule when it comes to agents seeking out self-published authors.

Susan Coffin · Mar 23, 2011

IceCreamEmpress said:
Me, I'm lazy, so "querying agents directly" and "querying publishers directly" generally seems like the best plan to me. I have self-published and micropublished (for projects where that was the best fit) and it's hard work--if I want to come to a NY agent or NY publisher's attention, I like the old-school way the best.

You're not lazy.

Devil Ledbetter · Mar 23, 2011

rsullivan9597 said:
[/LIST]If you are still on the Query-Go-Round, I HIGHLY recommend his short ebook (which he gives away for free as a way of "giving back" to the writing community): How to Write a Winning Query Letter where he analyzes and condenses the pearls of wisdom from the 10,000 queries he's reviewed as one of the top Literary Agents.

I have The First 5 Pages and think it's good, so I downloaded this ebook. It's a little dated, and spends a lot of time talking about things like paper quality and ink when the majority of queries are done by email now.

I was surprised by his assertion that character names should never be mentioned in a query. I understand the recommendation against "character soup" but didn't think mentioning the protagonist's name, or even the protagonist and one other player's name, was considered a no-no.

Thanks for the link.

thothguard51 · Mar 23, 2011

Whoa, wait a minute, I though Ridan Publishing was a small indie publisher and not a self publisher.

Why is Ridan pushing the virtues of self publishing over say going with an indie publisher?

Terie · Mar 23, 2011

thothguard51 said:
Whoa, wait a minute, I though Ridan Publishing was a small indie publisher and not a self publisher.

Why is Ridan pushing the virtues of self publishing over say going with an indie publisher?

And more to the point, why is Ridan Publishing touting the self-publishing success of two of its authors (Michael J Sullivan and Nathan Lowell) here, including describing these gents as 'Unknown non-previously published authors', if it's not, according to Michael J Sullivan here, a self-publishing company?

Bufty · Mar 23, 2011

Blatant plugs.

Purple Rose · Mar 23, 2011

Bufty said:
Blatant plugs.

Yup, sounds like.

Back to Noah Lukeman, though. An editor I worked with spoke very highly of him and had him first on her list in a document, Resources for Writers.

I checked his website and yes, he has written some excellent books and the free e-book is very helpful - great writing and content.

In the past few months of researching agents, going through their websites, looking for interviews or nuggets of information about them, I never came across anything so self-indulgent. There is absolutely NO information about his authors.

I have a lot of admiration and respect for the work he has done but I was personally put off by the extent of his chest-thumping. There is much more humility portrayed in the websites of all the other top agencies where I feel that if they sign me on, I will matter both as a person and an author.

By the way, he's closed to queries.

rsullivan9597 · Mar 23, 2011

Sheryl Nantus said:
That you really, really want to keep pushing self-publishing over traditional publishing?

Got the memo. Thanks.

*yawns*

Okay so this really was a LOL moment...if I REALLY want to push self-publishing over traditional publishing then why...

a) Do I run a traditional publishing company?

b) Just negotiate a six-figure traditional publishing contract for my husband's books?

If you REALLY pay attention to what I write about...here and on my blog and elsewhere is that there are MANY choices now to publishing as opposed to six-months ago where there was only one and only for a "select few".

rsullivan9597 · Mar 23, 2011

Jamesaritchie said:
If you want to surmise anything from this, it should be that You stand very, very little chance of attracting any agent's attention by self-publishing. Go with the loooonnnng string and ignore the single example.

That "used to be true". And my whole reason for posting.

Deals that I know about:

The last 2 authors that Lukeman brought on where both originally self-published.
My husband was originally self published and because of such as signed to a six-figure contract.
HP Mallory was self-published and signed a 2-book six figure contract
And of course Amanda Hocking - but she is an outlier so we'll leave her out of this.

The point was...when was the last time you heard of an agent chasing a self-published author...its a sign of the changing face of publishing.

rsullivan9597 · Mar 23, 2011

Tracey Taylor said:
But why would I want to waste all that time when right now I can start querying agents? By not self-publishing it seems like I'm jumping over a huge step that could take up a lot of my time and energy.

So you have a manuscript...and you think it is good. But before submitting it has to be REALLY good so you edit it extensively and get it "damn near perfect" - this is now as asset. To get it onto kindle is VERY easy. And you start shopping around...and while you do maybe no one reads your books...but maybe some do...what's the harm? It may take a year (or more) to find an agent and then a year or more while they shop it around - why not make some money in the meantime?

Becca C. · Mar 23, 2011

rsullivan9597 said:
It may take a year (or more) to find an agent and then a year or more while they shop it around - why not make some money in the meantime?

Because that's using up the manuscripts first rights and you're querying material that has already been published, which is almost always a no-no and looks unprofessional, like you don't know what you're doing.

rsullivan9597 · Mar 23, 2011

Susan Littlefield said:
However, I would say Mr. Lukeman is the except rather than the rule when it comes to agents seeking out self-published authors.

Sigh...What I'm pointing out is changes in "old school thinking". He is not the only one. It used to be the only way you could get an agent is by suffering rejection after rejection in the query-go-round isn't it worth sharing the fact that things are changing? Or do we just want to keep our heads in the sand and not pay attention to changes in the marketplace?

Some self-publishing to agent stories

H.P. Mallory got a six-figure 2-book deal via Kimberly Whalen of Trident Media Group
Victorine Lieskie has signed with Rachel Vogel at Movable Type literary group.
Lauren Saga signed also signed with Kimberly Whalen
John F. Merz recently signed with a new agent

rsullivan9597 · Mar 23, 2011

thothguard51 said:
Whoa, wait a minute, I though Ridan Publishing was a small indie publisher and not a self publisher.

Why is Ridan pushing the virtues of self publishing over say going with an indie publisher?

I don't PUSH any agenda - I'm just trying to keep people updated on changes in the industry.

I recognize that self, traditional (large), and traditional (small) all have their places. In fact I have "stakes in all three"

Sucessfully self-published over 60,000 books sold
Published a book through a small press (non Ridan)
Sucessfully small press published an additional 40,000 books
Negotiated a 3-book six-figure deal with a big-six agency

rsullivan9597 · Mar 23, 2011

Bufty said:
Blatant plugs.

Or sharing real world experience?

IceCreamEmpress · Mar 24, 2011

rsullivan9597 said:
The point was...when was the last time you heard of an agent chasing a self-published author...

Zane? E. Lynn Harris? Brunonia Barry? One or two self-published authors get picked up by trade publishers every year, which has been the case at least since Chic Sale's outhouse book in 1929.

On the other hand, thousands of first-time authors publish books with trade publishers every year by querying agents or publishers.

What does Noah Lukeman know that we may want to pay attention to...

rsullivan9597

blacbird

Terie

Writer is as Writer does

blacbird

Phaeal

Whatever I did, I didn't do it.

Anne Lyle

Fantastic historian

Sheryl Nantus

Holding out for a Superhero...

Jamesaritchie

IceCreamEmpress

Hapless Virago

Tracey Taylor

Susan Coffin

Tell it like it Is

Susan Coffin

Tell it like it Is

Devil Ledbetter

Come on you stranger, you legend,

thothguard51

A Gentleman of a refined age...

Terie

Writer is as Writer does

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

Purple Rose

practical experience, FTW

rsullivan9597

rsullivan9597

rsullivan9597

Becca C.

rsullivan9597

rsullivan9597

rsullivan9597

IceCreamEmpress

Hapless Virago