For diabetics: Non-glycemic starchy foods?

boron

Health writer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
995
Reaction score
46
Location
Europe
Website
www.healthhype.com
I'm researching about starch.

My question: Can any diabetic confirm that he/she can eat any starchy food without observing blood glucose spikes? Which foods are good or bad for you (based on glucose measurements)?

I've read that beans, sorghum, pearly barley and "Hi-maize" contain "resistant starches" that are not digested in the small intestine, but are fermented by colonic bacteria, and their products are absorbed and provide energy. These starches (according to serious medical websites) do not raise blood glucose, so they are recommended to diabetics. People on diabetic forums don't even try to discuss such claims; they say everyone is different, try and see.

Are the following foods "safe" for you (add Yes or No):

  • Apples
  • Bananas
  • Barley
  • Beans
  • Berries
  • Carrots
  • Chia seeds
  • Chickpeas
  • Jerusalem artichokes
  • Lentils
  • Mushrooms
  • Nuts (which?)
  • Oatmeal/oat bran
  • Oranges
  • Peas (green)
  • Sorghum
  • Soybeans
  • Sweet potatoes
  • Wholegrain bread
  • Winter squash
  • Does it help if you add high-fiber foods or fiber supplements (psyllium husk, Hi-maize resistant starch...) to your meals?
 
Last edited:

GeorgeK

ever seeking
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
6,577
Reaction score
740
Each individual varies mainly depending upon their ethnic genetic background. One diabetic will tolerate one starch over another and for the next patient it's different. There isn't a magic starch that is good for all diabetics. The articles that claim there is are either selling something or have terrible sample error.
 
Last edited:

boron

Health writer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
995
Reaction score
46
Location
Europe
Website
www.healthhype.com
I'm not trying to find a magic starch and I agree everyone is different. But I can paste here a long list of scientific nutritional journals loaded with "suggestions" how this and that starch can be good for diabetics. Many diabetics refuse any food and glycemic index lists. For the purpose of my article about nutrients I'm trying to write something less misleading at least, so I'm trying to find some logic from foods real diabetics can eat without blood glucose spikes.
 
Last edited:

GeorgeK

ever seeking
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
6,577
Reaction score
740
so I'm trying to find some logic from foods real diabetics can eat without blood glucose spikes.

That's where the etnicity plays in, which is not the same as your general etnicity based on your name. Before mass transit and refrigerated trucks, all food was local and diet was a big genetic selection pressure. The diabetics then, who didn't tolerate this or that starch had fewer kids or died childless. Asians generally will tolerate rice and soy better than corn or potatoes. For Native Americans, it's the opposite. Eskimoes tolerate an almost carnivore diet better. The simplest division is whether the food is New World or Old World and divide Old into East and West. Then add Africa and Australia as separate categories.

The patient then has to determine their ethnicity, but understand that that person may have more in common from a food tolerance standpoint with a single ancestor 10 generations back than all the other ancestors combined. Really the only way for them to do that is frequent blood sugar checks after dietary challenges to see which ones they tolerate better. I'm not trying to be flippant or condescending when I say there is no magic starch. I'm trying to impress upon you that it will take work, a lot of work, and the articles that say, "Oh, just eat X," are doing people a disservice.
 
Last edited:

backslashbaby

~~~~*~~~~
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
12,635
Reaction score
1,603
Location
NC
I know of a few you can investigate. Many tribes (most?) of Native Americans have blood sugar regulation problems. So, a lot of traditional food addresses that issue.

Sometimes the foods help due to aiding insulin sensitivity, etc, though, so it's not necessarily that the food is low glycemic.

Here's a source I use for products that are traditional:

(Examples)
http://www.nativeseeds.org/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=5_63&products_id=221

Mesquite Meal (FD017A) $4.00 This mesquite meal is finely ground with a fruity, caramel-like flavor. It's a good source of calcium, manganese, potassium, iron, and zinc. A great food for diabetics because of its ability to assist in stabilizing blood sugar. Recipe sheet included. Our current source for this incredible food is Argentina. AVAILABLE IN 8oz PACKAGES ONLY AT THIS TIME!!
http://www.nativeseeds.org/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=5_63&products_id=264

Plantago Seeds (Psyllium or " Indian Wheat") (FD070WRB) $4.00 Our native desert Psyllium seed is the same as that used in many over the counter "digestive aid" products. Helps diabetics regulate sugar absorbtion. Great in hot cereal and baked goods. 4oz package.
There are beans, prickly pear cactus, chia seeds and more there that were known to be good for diabetics. HTH.
 

frimble3

Heckuva good sport
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
11,574
Reaction score
6,396
Location
west coast, canada
But I can paste here a long list of scientific nutritional journals loaded with "suggestions" how this and that starch can be good for diabetics. Many diabetics refuse any food and glycemic index lists.
I am a Type 2 diabetic, and based on my experience, those two statements are related.
Everybody's got 'suggestions' as to what could be good for diabetics. After a while, in addition to problems with insulin resistance, we develop a resistance to more smug little lists of things we should do/eat/try. Especially magic grains and berries from far-off lands that only appear to have been discovered last Tuesday.
Especially since GeorgeK is right, actual results will vary for each individual.
Personally, I am saving my real contempt for those who keep offering magic advice on cancer over the internet: Eat this and you won't get cancer! Eat that and you will get cancer! Generally accompanied by emoticons and vague 'corroboration'.
As for 'scientific journals', isn't that where the 'vaccines cause autism' B.S. started?
Once I was a diabetic, thanks to the wonders of medical information, I am now a diabetic and a cynic.
 

backslashbaby

~~~~*~~~~
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
12,635
Reaction score
1,603
Location
NC
I am a Type 2 diabetic, and based on my experience, those two statements are related.
Everybody's got 'suggestions' as to what could be good for diabetics. After a while, in addition to problems with insulin resistance, we develop a resistance to more smug little lists of things we should do/eat/try. Especially magic grains and berries from far-off lands that only appear to have been discovered last Tuesday.
Especially since GeorgeK is right, actual results will vary for each individual.
Personally, I am saving my real contempt for those who keep offering magic advice on cancer over the internet: Eat this and you won't get cancer! Eat that and you will get cancer! Generally accompanied by emoticons and vague 'corroboration'.
As for 'scientific journals', isn't that where the 'vaccines cause autism' B.S. started?
Once I was a diabetic, thanks to the wonders of medical information, I am now a diabetic and a cynic.

Wait, you don't trust any scientific studies, either? Well, how do you propose treatments get developed, then?

The use of insulin came from magic beans scientific studies ... ?

Or maybe you mean when folks cite one poorly-done study, etc. I hate that, too, unless they are saying it may warrant further study.
 

boron

Health writer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
995
Reaction score
46
Location
Europe
Website
www.healthhype.com
I've added a list of foods (into the first post) that are both "recommended" by certain diabetic websites and often problematic for diabetics. Comments from diabetics appreciated.
 
Last edited:

frimble3

Heckuva good sport
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
11,574
Reaction score
6,396
Location
west coast, canada
Wait, you don't trust any scientific studies, either? Well, how do you propose treatments get developed, then?

The use of insulin came from magic beans scientific studies ... ?

Or maybe you mean when folks cite one poorly-done study, etc. I hate that, too, unless they are saying it may warrant further study.
Yes, that, the bolded part. There's some half-baked study, it's all over everywhere, your 'helpful' friends keep e-mailing you, and a week later there's another one. The first has, of course, not been proven or disproven, just been buried under a heap of newer garbage.
And especially the 'studies' that appear to be the work of some marketing genius, rather than anyone 'scientific'.
Sad but true: there is no money to be made in advocating exercise, portion control, limiting starches and high-glycemic foods and living a balanced life. It's MIRACLE FOODS all the way!
 

Blue236

New Fish; Learning About Thick Skin
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
146
Reaction score
6
Oatmeal/Bread can cause spikes if you eat too much of them in diabetics.
 

BenPanced

THE BLUEBERRY QUEEN OF HADES (he/him)
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 5, 2006
Messages
17,865
Reaction score
4,640
Location
dunking doughnuts at Dunkin' Donuts
Also?

It depends on when you eat the foods, how much you eat, what medication(s) you're on, the tides, phase of the moon, day of the week... One thing might cause a spike today but nothing tomorrow. When it comes to fruit, it also depends on how ripe it is; a fresh banana might barely register a blip on the glucometer but an overripe banana the same size that's turning brown will cause a huge spike because of the increase in the amount of natural sugars that occurs in the process. There are just too many variables to put a firm "yes/no" on everything on the list.

(I'm type 2, as well, and everything is from personal experience.)
 

frimble3

Heckuva good sport
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
11,574
Reaction score
6,396
Location
west coast, canada
Also?

It depends on when you eat the foods, how much you eat, what medication(s) you're on, the tides, phase of the moon, day of the week... One thing might cause a spike today but nothing tomorrow. When it comes to fruit, it also depends on how ripe it is; a fresh banana might barely register a blip on the glucometer but an overripe banana the same size that's turning brown will cause a huge spike because of the increase in the amount of natural sugars that occurs in the process. There are just too many variables to put a firm "yes/no" on everything on the list.


(I'm type 2, as well, and everything is from personal experience.)
Yes, this, exactly. The ripeness thing is an excellent point, not often brought up on those lists of '1 medium apple' or '14 grapes'. (And there's the variation between varieties, as well.)
And, in most cases, we don't test for sugars, eat a food in isolation, then test again. So a lot of 'what caused the spike' is speculation and after-the-fact analysis.
 
Last edited:

boron

Health writer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
995
Reaction score
46
Location
Europe
Website
www.healthhype.com
@BenPanced and frimble3, yes many circumstances affect glucose levels (not sure about the moon...), and my point is there has to be some theory behind it.

In the process of bananas ripening "resistant starch" (high in unripe bananas, is indigestible, therefore not contributing to blood glucose) is converted into regular starch (high in ripe bananas), which is normally digestible, and this is further converted into sugars (high in overripe bananas), which are quickly absorbed. So, I believe, if you are a diabetic and you think you have to eat bananas, unripe bananas may be friendly for your glucose levels.

So, please, can anyone else share which starchy foods he/she CAN safely eat?
 

Sargentodiaz

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 30, 2007
Messages
1,330
Reaction score
61
I've used Calorie King and a website about The Glycemic Index.
However, I've learned a couple of neat things.
1st - reduce your salt intake. Use salt substitutes if you need the taste.
2nd - try replacing potatoes with re-fried beans frijoles.
3rd - try eating Nopal or diced prickly pear cactus leaves once in awhile. It has something that helps control blood sugar.

Right now I'm on Lantus with an adjustment scale that's keeping me within the correct range - except for an occasional morning when it drops very low and I find myself with the shakes.

Hobbies of any kind are boring except to people who have the same hobby. This is also true of religion, although you will not find me saying so in print.
Dave Barry

Check out - http://[email protected]
 

ConChron

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 16, 2011
Messages
313
Reaction score
22
Location
Sweden
Website
a-muse-or-amuse.blogspot.com
Personally I'm on a low carb diet because that works the best for me. I most often eat less than 5e% carb a day. That's 5% of my energy intake. I can eat everything on the list as long as I don't eat too much of it. Most of the items on the list are not worth it though, there are better things I can waste my daily carbs on.

Fruits, roots, peas and beans are pretty much off limits for me since I can eat so little of it. The things from you list that I do eat are mushrooms and small amounts of hazelnuts. (I've never heard of Chia seeds.) I also use psyllium husk when I make a substitute for bread.

Carbs raise my blood sugar. End of story. It doesn't matter what kind of carbs they are. Since I started to eat low carb I've cut my insulin dose to 1/4 of the dose I took before. That's all I need to know.
 

PorterStarrByrd

nutruring tomorrows criminals today
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 26, 2011
Messages
33,701
Reaction score
2,013
Location
Moose Creek, Maine
The first thing you need to do is separate the discussion into whether you care about insulin using diabetics, diet and exercise diabetics, and pill using diabetics.

Thankfully, as far as I am concearned, I am in the first group. I can eat anything, as long as I can figure out how much insulin to use. How much exercise I am about to engage in also important.

The other thing I care about is how many calories I take in. The more carbs I eat the more calories. I keep mine fairly low with and occaional treat that I compensate for.
I have been able to keep my glucose readings between 95 and 115 VERY consistantly.

There are no magical foods .. just magical advertising that I ignore.

Now as to the other two groups you need to hear from them as to how they deal with what and how much they can eat. I assume you are more interested in them.

On the other hand, from a story standpoint, there are plenty of oppotunities for me to get into unintended trouble. That is especially true if I don't have access to long and short term insulin.

There is, again, no magic. It is all chemsitry
 

rugcat

Lost in the Fog
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
Messages
16,339
Reaction score
4,110
Location
East O' The Sun & West O' The Moon
Website
www.jlevitt.com
I'm type II and have done a lot of experimenting to see which carbs I tolerate best. George K is absolutely correct; individuals vary so much that any general statement about how different foods affect "diabetics" is going to be problematical, to say the least.

It also depends on complex factors that are difficult to assess. If I do exactly the same amount of exercise, and follow the exact same routine, and eat exactly the same amount of the same thing, I'll still see significant deviation in glucose spikes from week to week, or even day to day. It's just not a clean one to one correlation.

ConChron said:
Carbs raise my blood sugar. End of story. It doesn't matter what kind of carbs they are.
I think this is as close to a general truth as you can find -- but although none of them are "safe" some are worse than others, for some diabetics.

In general I cannot eat rice at all -- spikes me to very high levels. Pea soup is almost as bad. Potatoes are slightly better, and pasta, surprisingly, doesn't have as much of an effect on my glucose levels as either as peas or beans.

I once ate a sweet heirloom tomato from a garden that almost instantly pushed me over 200. You just never know what's going to do it.
 

backslashbaby

~~~~*~~~~
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
12,635
Reaction score
1,603
Location
NC
I might need to explain the foods I linked to, because I do agree with y'all here. Studies are underway on lots of things that affect glucose sensitivity, insulin sensitivity, etc. If those foods I noticed really do help with diabetes, my assumption would be that they have components that work medically, so to speak. Prickly pear cactus is being studied for sure.

So it's not so much that it's a fruit (is it a fruit, lol?) but that it has 'medicine' in it, basically.

I'm not sure about how the grains would work; it may be their structure and not 'special' components. Scientists are studying different scenarios in digestion that go to the same end goal, glucose- or insulin-wise.

Birth control pills are based on a yam. So you never know until you study it, imho :)
 

boron

Health writer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
995
Reaction score
46
Location
Europe
Website
www.healthhype.com
@backslashbaby: Psyllium husk (high in soluble fiber) can help reduce glucose levels after meals and can reduce blood cholesterol levels. I haven't found much about mesquite meal on any non-commercial site, though. One hypothesis about prickly pears is that they increase insulin sensitivity.

@blue236: The starches from oatmeal and wholegrain bread are digested at a slower rate and are therefore considered better than the starch from white bread. I agree that "better" might be not good enough.

@ Ivcabbie: "Frijoles" is a Spanish word for beans. Have you had any exact type of beans in mind? And how they are "re-fried"? What exact result of lowered salt intake have you noticed (if any)? Nopal (prickly pear cactus or Opuntia streptacantha Lemaire) was shown (in several clinical trials) effective in lowering blood glucose in diabetes type 2.

@PorterStarrByrd: As you know, slow/fast starch digestibility is an issue for any diabetic. I'm researching about starch, not diabetes, though.

@rugcat: rice, especially white rice, is known to cause glucose spikes. Macaroni and spaghetti are pre-heat treated and during this process some regular starch is converted into resistant starch, which is not digested, but is --later, when it reaches the large intestine -- fermented by colonic bacteria, which produce fatty acids, which are absorbed, but do not increase blood glucose. Cooked and cooled pasta would likely be even more glucose friendly, since additional resistant starch is created during cooling.
 

ConChron

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 16, 2011
Messages
313
Reaction score
22
Location
Sweden
Website
a-muse-or-amuse.blogspot.com
I think this is as close to a general truth as you can find -- but although none of them are "safe" some are worse than others, for some diabetics.

My experience is that the e% is what matters the most. A high e% makes the carbs "worse" while a low e% makes them better.

People talk about fast and slow carbs (I hope it's the same in English) but if I eat the same e% of both there is no difference to speak of. 5e% sugar or 5e% whole grain bread has the same effect on my blood sugar, but the 5e% whole grain bread is more filling.

And I have to chime in with the quire, different folks different strokes. What works for one person might not work to another.
 

ConChron

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 16, 2011
Messages
313
Reaction score
22
Location
Sweden
Website
a-muse-or-amuse.blogspot.com
e% is the % of the energy (calorie) intake that comes from carbs.

The page is in Swedish, don't know if it will help you at all. This is Swedish too. I don't know what it's called in English.

First look at how many calories per 100 gram the food contains. Then you need to know how many calories 1 gram of fat, carbs and protein contains.
That's 9 kcal for fat, 4 kcal for protein, 4 kcal for carbs. (Alcohol 7 kcal for alcohol.)

100 grams orange= 46 kcal.
Protein 0.8 gram.
Carbs 10.3 gram.

That's 10.3 x 4 = 41.2

41.2/46= 0.89 x 100= 89e%

Needless to say. I don't eat oranges. To count e% is not about looking at each product by it self, the calculation has to be balanced with all the other things you eat to make an average over a meal or a day.
 

boron

Health writer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
995
Reaction score
46
Location
Europe
Website
www.healthhype.com
So, which e% is safe for you? Also, there are fiber considered in the total amount of carbohydrates on nutrition fact labels. Do you remove fiber from calculation or not?
 

ConChron

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 16, 2011
Messages
313
Reaction score
22
Location
Sweden
Website
a-muse-or-amuse.blogspot.com
Did you mean high energy/high calorie carbs?

Carbs are all the same in energy/kcal.

I'm thinking about the claim that some carbs digests slower and that it's somehow better for you. In my eyes it's a pointless idea since the carbs tuns into sugar either way. Does it really matter if you raise your blood sugar directly or half an hour later? You've raised it either way.
 

ConChron

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 16, 2011
Messages
313
Reaction score
22
Location
Sweden
Website
a-muse-or-amuse.blogspot.com
So, which e% is safe for you?

I'm sticking to 5e% or lower per meal. It's seen as a bit extreme by some but it works for me. It was a bit complicted to calculate what food combinations I could eat but once it was done it flows on routine. (As an average that's less than 20 grams of carbs a day.)

I don't remove anything that has calories in it since the total of the calories is crucial for the calculation.
 
Last edited: