Legalization of Drugs

Sydewinder · Mar 11, 2011

Diana Hignutt said:
Yeah, the if you have nothing to hide thing doesn't really work in this country because we have the 4th Amendment, btw.

I guess, me and backslashy are criminals to you because we have smoked the odd bit of weed here and there? You, my friend, are a toughie.

LOL - no you'd be "criminals" to everyone because you commit crimes (unless where you live weed is legal). I'm sure there are lots of things that people wish they could do but can't because of the legality of the actions: Drink in public, smoke weed, snort coke off the roof of a cop car, beat the s@#$ out of those damn squeegee guys that try to wash your windows when you're stopped at a red light...but doing those things means you've committed a crime and are a criminal.

It would be naive to think you're only hurting yourself when you do something like smoke weed.

Diana Hignutt · Mar 11, 2011

Sydewinder said:
LOL - no you'd be "criminals" to everyone because you commit crimes (unless where you live weed is legal). I'm sure there are lots of things that people wish they could do but can't because of the legality of the actions: Drink in public, smoke weed, snort coke off the roof of a cop car, beat the s@#$ out of those damn squeegee guys that try to wash your windows when you're stopped at a red light...but doing those things means you've committed a crime and are a criminal.

It would be naive to think you're only hurting yourself when you do something like smoke weed.

People are funny creatures. Do you speed? Have you ever? Then you're a criminal too.

Laws against drugs are against the spirit of freedom of the individual, and the worst kind of tryanny, imho.

Torgo · Mar 11, 2011

Sydewinder said:
It would be naive to think you're only hurting yourself when you do something like smoke weed.

Hmm, I had a relative who had a couple of pot plants in his back garden, out in deepest darkest Dorset. At Christmas we'd make brownies and watch bad movies and it was extremely festive. Not sure who was getting hurt in that scenario... I'd argue prohibition is causing more harm overall than if it were legal.

Let's say I could wave a magic wand and the current law of the land would be instantly and perfectly enforced. You couldn't commit a crime without a policeman appearing in a puff of smoke and arresting you. I think most people would actually find that intolerable, and we'd have to relax a lot of laws.

Don · Mar 11, 2011

All you "innocent" people need to check out Three Felonies a Day. Just the recap page in the link should be enough. "Innocent" people go to prison every day.

Sydewinder · Mar 11, 2011

Maybe the fact that it's illegal is a problem, but by skirting the laws you're providing motivation to criminals to produce a supply by any means they can (which often involves harming others). If you don't like a law, the cowardly thing to do is to just do it anyway and shrug at the people you're hurting along the way. If you really have a problem with it, petition the government and get the laws changed.

Torgo · Mar 11, 2011

Sydewinder said:
by skirting the laws you're providing motivation to criminals to produce a supply by any means they can

I dunno; in the example I provided I don't see how it affects anybody else. How will criminals even know about a few pot brownies at Christmas, let alone become extra motivated to break the law?

I do sign a lot of petitions and I've been on a good few protest marches (not least the biggest ever UK protest march.) Somehow I seem to keep ending up on the losing side.

Sydewinder · Mar 11, 2011

Diana Hignutt said:
Laws against drugs are against the spirit of freedom of the individual, and the worst kind of tryanny, imho.

Really? that's the worst kind? I wouldn't even call it Tyranny. Drugs kill so many people every year. Millions of people. They destroy lives, families, societies. There is a reason drugs are illegal. But I still say if you have a problem with it, get off your ass and change the laws.

Sydewinder · Mar 11, 2011

Torgo said:
I dunno; in the example I provided I don't see how it affects anybody else. How will criminals even know about a few pot brownies at Christmas, let alone become extra motivated to break the law?

I do sign a lot of petitions and I've been on a good few protest marches (not least the biggest ever UK protest march.) Somehow I seem to keep ending up on the losing side.

Where did their plants come from in your example?

If you're always on the losing side, perhaps you need to reexamine your position? Or reexamine your approach.

Torgo · Mar 11, 2011

Sydewinder said:
Where did their plants come from in your example?

It beats the hell out of us. It was a very big garden in the countryside and the weed was growing there like, well, a weed. It was about eight feet tall when we found it.

Sydewinder said:
If you're always on the losing side, perhaps you need to reexamine your position? Or reexamine your approach.

Well, my positions are generally a matter of conscience, so I don't think I can compromise them just to be a winner more often. And my approach tends to be to petition the government, which was what you suggested, wasn't it? Do you have another approach in mind that would be more successful?

ETA: May be worth pointing out it isn't automatically morally wrong to break the law. Should we chide the jailbirds Oscar Wilde or Aung Sang Suu Kyi?

Sheryl Nantus · Mar 11, 2011

I'd have no problem legalizing all the drugs as long as we realize the legal penalties as well.

I can get busted for drinking and driving because I'm impaired. I should also be busted if I drink while I'm high because I'm impaired as well. Alcohol, weed, whatever - if my judgment is warped in any way I should be charged.

I can't drive a bulldozer while drunk. I shouldn't be able do to so if I'm high.

And for anyone saying that their judgment isn't impaired when they're high... I point you to the many, many people who drive while "buzzed" and claim they're just fine.

Until they kill someone. Or themselves.

Sydewinder · Mar 11, 2011

Torgo said:
It beats the hell out of us. It was a very big garden in the countryside and the weed was growing there like, well, a weed. It was about eight feet tall when we found it.

Well, my positions are generally a matter of conscience, so I don't think I can compromise them just to be a winner more often. And my approach tends to be to petition the government, which was what you suggested, wasn't it? Do you have another approach in mind that would be more successful?

Sure, go into politics. Or, work on the campaigns of people who are liked minded. Or, perhaps consider that you're wrong and that your support of a drug might not be a wise position after all.

Torgo said:
ETA: May be worth pointing out it isn't automatically morally wrong to break the law. Should we chide the jailbirds Oscar Wilde or Aung Sang Suu Kyi?

I think it would be an insult to suggest that their plights are somehow on par, or even similar with those people in jail for drug use.

I fear we might be derailing the thread, and I think there have been hundreds of drug threads on this forum already. We can continue via PM if you like.

regdog · Mar 11, 2011

Since we've gone on a bit of a derail, I'm going to start a thread for the discussion of the legalization of drugs

Mr Flibble · Mar 11, 2011

Sydewinder said:
Where did their plants come from in your example?

If I were to buy a plant *cough* I would talk to my friendly local green-fingered pensioner, and supplement his pension for him. I'm not sure that's hurting anyone. Actually, considering the state of his pension, it's probably helping.

ETA: I should probably note that no, I don't buy off him or anyone, or grow my own, or smoke weed (not any more). But his attic and the hydroponic bay he's got going is an education.

Torgo · Mar 11, 2011

Sydewinder said:
I think it would be an insult to suggest that their plights are somehow on par, or even similar with those people in jail for drug use.

They're edge cases; they're intended to be a reductio ad absurdum of the position that breaking the law is always wrong. Morality isn't identical with law. The law can often be an ass.

I'm not amazingly interested in derailing or debating this further (but of course you are welcome to PM me and we can chat) but my original intention was just to point out that things aren't always clear-cut.

Sydewinder said:
Or, perhaps consider that you're wrong and that your support of a drug might not be a wise position after all.

I'm a philosopher by education, which means I like to argue but I do also tend to be open-minded to a fault. Having turned this over in my mind for a long time, and talked to all kinds of people about it, and been involved in neighbourhood anti-drug schemes, and had friends of mine imprisoned for drug-related offences, and worked with kids, and had relatives with serious addictions... well, my position is that I don't think cannabis prohibition is doing anyone any good but violent criminals. And I think it's pretty well-considered. It takes all sorts, doesn't it.

Michael Wolfe · Mar 11, 2011

Torgo said:
my position is that I don't think cannabis prohibition is doing anyone any good but violent criminals.

Agreed - and that becomes even truer when you talk about harder drugs than marijuana.

Sydewinder is right - drugs do kill a lot of people. In part, I blame those who stand in the way of legalization for that.

I'll also agree with Sydewinder that Oscar Wilde's plight isn't comparable to drug users who get thrown in jail. Oscar Wilde went to jail for about two years, IIRC. In the U.S. at least, people spend more time in jail for crack cocaine possession. And in some countries (like Singapore) people have been executed for drug possession.

Don · Mar 11, 2011

How can one realistically look at:

the failure of alcohol Prohibition in the 1920s;
the failure of the War on Drugs to have a noteable impact on drug use despite 50 years of increasing militarization of the police;
the highest incarceration rate on the planet;
the trampling of civil liberties;
the destruction of our inner cities through gang warfare;
the corruption in police forces financed by drug lords;
the transformation of police from protectors to invaders;
the thousands of innocents whose lives have been disrupted by erroneous home invasions based on faulty leads;
the billions of dollars of productive time and energy wasted on the whole scheme;
the billions of dollars in lost tax revenue;
the billions of dollars spent to incarcerate a large percentage of the population;
drug use rates higher than in countries where drugs have been decriminalized;
a long laundry list of other indicators that the War has failed;

and still think the War on Drugs is a good idea?

Sydewinder · Mar 11, 2011

I'm not saying that the war on drugs isn't a problem. I'm saying that disregarding those laws is only benefiting violent criminals. Therefore, I have no sympathy for people who get locked up. I don't see them as martyrs for a cause, I see them as junkies who are too stupid or too baked to change the laws via appropriate avenues.

Ending the war on drugs will not solve the problem. There are people who don't do drugs b/c of fear of incarceration. I think that's a good thing. Drugs destroy lives. Addiction destroys lives. Is the war the best way to fight it? I dunno, can you think of an alternative to how to fight it?

Don · Mar 11, 2011

Sydewinder said:
I'm not saying that the war on drugs isn't a problem. I'm saying that disregarding those laws is only benefiting violent criminals. Therefore, I have no sympathy for people who get locked up. I don't see them as martyrs for a cause, I see them as junkies who are too stupid or too baked to change the laws via appropriate avenues.

Ending the war on drugs will not solve the problem. There are people who don't do drugs b/c of fear of incarceration. I think that's a good thing. Drugs destroy lives. Addiction destroys lives. Is the war the best way to fight it? I dunno, can you think of an alternative to how to fight it?

When you see your only possible opponents as stupid and too baked to debate, and dismiss the horrific impact of the "cure" in mindless pursuit of the elimination of the "disease," what is there to debate?

Michael Wolfe · Mar 11, 2011

Sydewinder said:
Is the war the best way to fight it? I dunno, can you think of an alternative to how to fight it?

The answer is buried there in Don's list he posted. Study what's happened in the countries where drugs have been decriminalized. The success of it has been staggering. In Switzerland, heroin was decreminalized in response to the spread of HIV there. It worked. More addicts are getting the help they need and addicts who still use now have access to non-infected needles.

Study what's happened in Portugal, too. That's another great success story.

The problem with throwing people in jail is it doesn't help them, it just makes things worse.

Drugs laws benefit violent drug cartels and help maintain their profits, and punish people for hurting no one but themselves, and in some cases, no one at all.

LaceWing · Mar 11, 2011

If you buy diamonds or endangered animal products, you could be complicit in the slavery and deaths of others.
If you buy sweat shop clothing and other goods thus produced, you could be complicit in the slavery and abuse of others.
If you buy illicit drugs, you could be complicit in the slavery and deaths and imprisonment of others.

Your freedom to get loaded stops when you figure out that it ain't so free.

I'm for legalization of some drugs and decriminilization of others. I am not for you being so stoned you can't figure out that other people may have died for that joint you're toking on.

Don · Mar 11, 2011

The only people who die for that joint you're toking on don't die because of the drug; they die because of the War on that drug, and because TPTB have decided it's better for people to die than to have access to marijuana.

Think about that one. TPTB are willing to see people die, and to order those deaths at the hands of their minions, rather than allow people to smoke the leaves of a weed.

You want evil? There you go.

LaceWing · Mar 11, 2011

Don said:
How can one realistically look at:

the failure of alcohol Prohibition in the 1920s;
the failure of the War on Drugs to have a noteable impact on drug use despite 50 years of increasing militarization of the police;
the highest incarceration rate on the planet;
the trampling of civil liberties;
the destruction of our inner cities through gang warfare;
the corruption in police forces financed by drug lords;
the transformation of police from protectors to invaders;
the thousands of innocents whose lives have been disrupted by erroneous home invasions based on faulty leads;
the billions of dollars of productive time and energy wasted on the whole scheme;
the billions of dollars in lost tax revenue;
the billions of dollars spent to incarcerate a large percentage of the population;
drug use rates higher than in countries where drugs have been decriminalized;
a long laundry list of other indicators that the War has failed;

and still think the War on Drugs is a good idea?

Those are all points in support of changing the law. They are not points in support of defying the law as things stand. Defying it exacerbates all these problems.

Don · Mar 11, 2011

LaceWing said:
Those are all points in support of changing the law. They are not points in support of defying the law as things stand.

Agreed.

LaceWing said:
Defying it exacerbates all these problems.

Yeah, it's so much better if people just stay in the back of the bus when they're told to, and go kill whoever they're told to once they're forced into the military. Defying the law never brings any benefit to anybody. :sarcasm

LaceWing · Mar 11, 2011

I agree that The Powers That Be are, in effect, complicit. But recognizing that does not form a defense.

Conscientious objection is not the same as insisting on a right to get stoned, Don. It just is not.

Don · Mar 11, 2011

LaceWing said:
I agree that The Powers That Be are, in effect, complicit. But recognizing that does not form a defense.

Conscientious objection is not the same as insisting on a right to get stoned, Don. It just is not.

Civil disobedience is a core component of any successful society. It's the only successful way to tell TPTB that they've overstepped their bounds. In an ideal world, where TPTB were responsive to the people, that might be different.

Legalization of Drugs

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