ME examining burnt bodies

Most likely. If he knocked them out with anything hard he would almost certainly have fractured their skulls, ME could tell that easily. He wouldn't be able to confirm for certain that they were knocked out or not, but he would be able to show where and how they were hit.

It would take more than a quick examination. Either some kind of scan or by removing the remaining flesh.

Short answer is it depends.

Because the victims were only knocked unconscious, they would still have been breathing in the fire and would presumably have died as a result of smoke inhalation. If they died from their head wounds before the fire, the obvious sign would have been a lack of smoke in their lungs.

That leaves an external and internal examination of their head. Externally, you would be looking for a contusion and/or bruising. Internally, you'd be looking for a skull fracture and/or a contusion on the brain, with some bleeding possible. The question then becomes the survivability of the body in a structure fire.

Bodies in structure fires can vary widely in condition. Depending upon how the building collapses, bodies can vary from virtually no damage to extensive damage with massive amounts of skin being burned off. Assuming a lot of destruction to the body, the only sign remaining would be the skull fracture, if that had happened. Minor damage to the body would leave the other signs.

However, these injuries would also be consistent with something falling on them during the fire. This could complicate the situation during a criminal trial for the slugger.

If the ME was responding to a suggestion in this type of situation, I'd question the competency of the ME. This stuff should be gross enough to be seen during the autopsy. An ME that is responding to suggestions is going to have a problem testifying that the cause of death was whatever beyond a medical certainty.

I was a volunteer firefighter/EMT and am still impressed with how much and how little can survive a structure fire.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

And don't forget the 'pugilist's pose' which the body will often assume when exposed to intense heat. Their limbs get pulled up as though they're getting read to 'strike a pose' or a punch.

jaksen said:

And don't forget the 'pugilist's pose' which the body will often assume when exposed to intense heat. Their limbs get pulled up as though they're getting read to 'strike a pose' or a punch.

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This would be immaterial to a head injury, although it would be one indication of how hot the body had become. A crispy critter will have all of the tendons contracted, which causes that pose.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

rosehips said:

Hi,
In my WIP I have two murder victims burned in a house fire. The perp knocked them both unconscious before burning the house. Would the ME be able to tell that they were knocked out first?

Is it the kind of thing the ME could figure out after an initial examination if someone suggested the possibility?

Thanks!

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Adding to what other have said about the "technical issues"-remember, many states don't even have medical examiners. They have appointed or elected coroners, who may or may not be very qualified, and who may or may not send bodies to qualified private forensic labs. In a story you could probably play this either way, especially in some locales.

California has some of the most qualified arson investigators as well. A fire marshal (arson investigator) would be called for any fire where a body is discovered. The bodies would be investigated at the scene, numerous pictures taken before moving them, before being transported to the medical examiner.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

rosehips said:

Thank you all for the great responses!

Alley, which states? Where do I find that out? My book is set in Sacramento, California. I guess I'm off to hunt through the City of Sac and Sac PD websites...

Edited to say: In case this is helpful to anyone, Sacramento has a Coroner's Office where they employ medical examiners complete with MDs.

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I've seen a map showing what states require a qualified medical examiner and what states don't; I don't know where to find it online offhand, but you could probably do a Google search and find it.

I was going to say that California probably required an autopsy by a qualified medical examiner, but I see you've found the information you needed.

The use of licensed medical doctors doesn't always mean anything however. The coroner in New Orleans is famous for some controversial findings; he's a doctor all right . . . an OB/GYN.

National Association of Medical Examiners has a list of qualified medical examiners at NAME Accredited Offices. However, you need to cautious in using it. Texas is fully accredited, but has had some major problems. Massachusetts, which has no accredited medical examiner, has a fairly solid reputation.

Also understand that medical examiners is something that is in development from the 1930s on. The standards to be certified became higher and higher, reaching modern levels sometime around 1980. Earl Stanley Gardner did a lot of discussion about medical examiners in the PERRY MASON series.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

I don't know the exact answer to your question, but I've detail you might be interested in. Not from my personal experience but my hubs told me once that humans have a very distinct and very disturbing smell after being burned. It's something that's haunted him for years.

This may be entirely untrue because I don't remember where I read it. But...

In cases where bodies are burned beyond normal ID can be procured... doesn't the state contact a forensic anthropologist or deal with the "fresher dead problems"?

I could be completely wrong, but I could have sworn I read it somewhere. Big cities, of course. Small towns are most likely going to have a GP who was elected coroner. That's what my podink town has.

EFCollins said:

This may be entirely untrue because I don't remember where I read it. But...

In cases where bodies are burned beyond normal ID can be procured... doesn't the state contact a forensic anthropologist or deal with the "fresher dead problems"?

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Burn victims tend to be relatively easy to identify, as usually you have a good starting point of knowing who was supposed to be in the building. Even if finger prints have burned off, medical and dental records are available against a known person. And you can run DNA if it hasn't been destroyed.

The problem arises when the victim has no probable identity. I don't think anyone's developed a database of dental records for comparison such as with fingerprints. So in the case of a victim where fingerprint identification is not possible, you have to start working to find a possible missing person. Initially, things like scars and tattoos are used, but eventually they'll do a reconstruction of the face. It's a long, slow process and in the US, a lot of bodies are unidentified each year.

EFCollins said:

I could be completely wrong, but I could have sworn I read it somewhere. Big cities, of course. Small towns are most likely going to have a GP who was elected coroner. That's what my podink town has.

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Coroners and medical examiners are not necessarily the same thing. Among other differences, a medical examiner is always a medical doctor, and a coroner may not be. But more and more states are moving this to a statewide office of medical examiner, so that the quality of autopsies are improved.

With the exception of a very few big cities, this is not cost effective to have the quality of examiner that you need, nor the specialized equipment that the lab needs (as it is, certain tests are only done by a couple of labs nationwide -- you send out samples). Having criminal cases thrown out because the medical examiner is incompetent is embarrassing. And as a result of shows such as C.S.I., juries are more knowledgeable and expect a higher standard than they used to.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

EFCollins said:

In cases where bodies are burned beyond normal ID can be procured... doesn't the state contact a forensic anthropologist or deal with the "fresher dead problems"?

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Dr. William Bass has been performing that duty here in Tennessee for decades, wherever across the state he has been needed from Memphis to Mountain City. That particular chore led him to found the Body Farm. I took a basic anthropology course from him at UT in 1983. He always had a slide show of interesting cases around mid-term. Very graphic and gruesome, lent an Addams Family sort of vibe by his wicked sense of humor. There were a couple of burned body cases covered by the slide show that he'd been called in on for forensic expertise, even though the identities were, if not known, then suspected. We still run into one another every so often, and it amazes me that he remembers my not particularly distinguished time in his class.

SirOtter said:

Dr. William Bass has been performing that duty here in Tennessee for decades, wherever across the state he has been needed from Memphis to Mountain City. That particular chore led him to found the Body Farm. I took a basic anthropology course from him at UT in 1983. He always had a slide show of interesting cases around mid-term. Very graphic and gruesome, lent an Addams Family sort of vibe by his wicked sense of humor. There were a couple of burned body cases covered by the slide show that he'd been called in on for forensic expertise, even though the identities were, if not known, then suspected. We still run into one another every so often, and it amazes me that he remembers my not particularly distinguished time in his class.

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That must have been interesting, in an odd sort of way.

I've seen videos of him at the real Body Farm. He looked like some old guy puttering around in his garden. Dead body hanging from a tree, corpse in a car, couple of bodies half-buried in the ground, decomposing women in a shallow pool of water, dead body here, dead body there. Ho hum, ho hum.

They should put him on Tennessee Crossroads. That would be a change from old general stores and out-of-the-way restaurants. ;-)