Comma within quotations

Splendad · Feb 15, 2011

For some reason, I've always thought that you had to use a comma after a quoted phrase or word in a sentence. Jake said he "just hated," the way the Mets played.

Lately, I'm questioning that. Going to search for the rule now but does anybody else stumble with this? I'll edit post with rule...

EDIT:
Ok, here are the rules Terie shared. Very useful, but I think they are geared more toward dialogue interrupted rather than third-person narrative interrupted with something somebody said, so I'll confess, I'm still a bit confused on commas after stuff in quotations. I'll keep hunting.

Tag following quoted dialog:
"That's fine. Whatever you decide," he said.
"That's fine. What does she think?" he said.

Tag preceding quoted dialog:
He said, "That's fine. Whatever you decide."
He said, "That's fine. What does she think?"

Tag between two separate dialog sentences:
"That's fine," he said. "Whatever you decide."
"That's fine," he said. "What does she think?"
- or -
"That's fine." He said, "Whatever you decide."
"That's fine." He said, "What does she think?"

Tag interrupting a dialog sentence:
"That," he said, "is fine. Whatever you decide."
"That, "he said, "is fine. What does she think?"

Dialog without a tag, but with an associated narrative sentence

Narrative sentence following quoted dialog:
"That's fine. Whatever you decide." He shrugged.
"That's fine. What does she think?" He shrugged.

Narrative sentence preceding quoted dialog:
He shrugged. "That's fine. Whatever you decide."
He shrugged. "That's fine. What does she think?"

Narrative sentence between two separate dialog sentences:
"That's fine." He shrugged. "Whatever you decide."
"That's fine." He shrugged. "What does she think?"

Narrative sentence interrupting a dialog sentence:
"That." He shrugged. "Is fine. Whatever you decide."
"That." He shrugged. "Is fine. What does she think?"

Dialog ending with an exclamation point, ellipsis, or emdash follows the same pattern as the question mark.

Terie · Feb 15, 2011

The third sticky down in this forum is 'Dialog Punctuation and Capitalization'. It explains the rules perfectly.

Bing Z · Feb 15, 2011

Jake said, "I just hate the way the Mets played."
Jake said he just hated the way the Mets played.
Why did you enclose just hate in quotation marks?

CMoS 7.60 Quoted phrases. Phrases quoted from another context, recognizable to readers, are often enclosed in quotation marks, with no source given. Discretion is required...
Marilyn did not willingly "suffer the little ones" to enter her studio.
BUT
The pursuit of happiness is a practice more often defended than defined.

CMoS 7.58: Quotation marks are often used to alert readers that a term is used in a nonstanard, ironic, or other special sense. Nicknamed "scare quotes," they imply, "This is not my term" or "This is not how the term is usually applied." Like any such device, scare quotes lose their force and irritate readers if overused. See also 7.59, 7.62.

Jake said, "I just hate the 'kinky' way the Mets played."
Jake said he just hated the "kinky" way the Mets played.
<I think you may put kinky in quotation marks because nobody normally uses kinky to describe how baseball is played. But I think it looks silly in dialogues, and marginal with quote of speeches.>
Jake said, "I just hate the kinky, crazy, but effective way the Mets played."
Jake said he just hated the "kinky, crazy, but effective" way the Mets played.

CMoS 7.59: "So-called." A word or phrase preceded by so-called should not be enclosed in quotation marks. The expression itself indicates irony or doubt.

Jake said, "I just hate the so-called brilliant way the Mets played."
Jake said he just hated the so-called brilliant way the Mets played.

Jamesaritchie · Feb 15, 2011

In this case, I don't think there should be quotation marks, or a comma. This reads as narrative, not dialogue.

Splendad · Feb 15, 2011

It was a quick example sentence that I came up with in which I was trying to show how unnatural it felt to put a comma there, and 10 years has passed since English 430 (advanced grammar) for me and I think my memory is going. Come to think of it, I don't think we ever addressed this in that class. No matter; thank you, Terie, for the reference and thanks everybody else for the input. I'll go ahead and edit the first post still with the rule from this site in the event that this thread comes up on a search (saving somebody one additional step and a search through the rules, I expect).

absitinvidia · Feb 15, 2011

Splendad said:
Narrative sentence interrupting a dialog sentence:
"That." He shrugged. "Is fine. Whatever you decide."
"That." He shrugged. "Is fine. What does she think?"

I would not punctuate these as shown in the example. Instead, I'd use em dashes to show interrupted dialogue:

"That"--he shrugged--"is fine."

Terie · Feb 16, 2011

absitinvidia said:
I would not punctuate these as shown in the example. Instead, I'd use em dashes to show interrupted dialogue:

"That"--he shrugged--"is fine."

This is incorrect, too. In dialogue, punctuation always goes inside the quote marks. ALWAYS.

"That--" he shrugged "--is fine."

For non-dialogue use of quote marks, usage varies; US standards are different from UK standards.

Dr.Gonzo · Feb 16, 2011

Terie said:
This is incorrect, too. In dialogue, punctuation always goes inside the quote marks. ALWAYS.

"That--" he shrugged "--is fine."

For non-dialogue use of quote marks, usage varies; US standards are different from UK standards.

That looks very wrong to me. I've seen it used the other way many times.

Terie · Feb 16, 2011

Terie said:
This is incorrect, too. In dialogue, punctuation always goes inside the quote marks. ALWAYS.

"That--" he shrugged "--is fine."

For non-dialogue use of quote marks, usage varies; US standards are different from UK standards.

Dr.Gonzo said:
That looks very wrong to me. I've seen it used the other way many times.

Well, let's look at the sources I have here at my desk at work.

Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary said:
The dash, question mark, and exclamation point fall within the quotation marks when they refer to the quoted matter only; they fall outside when they refer to the whole sentence.

"I can't see how--" he started to say.

The Chicago Manual of Style said:
The dash is also used in dialogue to indicate that the speech of one person has been interrupted....

"Well, I don't know," he began tentatively. "I thought I might--"

The Gregg Reference Manual said:
A dash goes inside the closing quotation mark to indicate that the speaker's or writer's words have broken off....

It was tragic to hear Tom say, "If he had only listened--"

None of these references have examples of dashes at the beginning of the dialogue quote, but it's quite easy to extrapolate that if they go inside at the end, they also go inside at the beginning.

Dr.Gonzo · Feb 16, 2011

It's different. The dialogue isn't being cut off. It's the narrator adding something between an uncut sentence. The sentence itself isn't being disturbed in the context of the story.

Torgo · Feb 16, 2011

Terie said:
This is incorrect, too. In dialogue, punctuation always goes inside the quote marks. ALWAYS.

"That--" he shrugged "--is fine."

For non-dialogue use of quote marks, usage varies; US standards are different from UK standards.

Those dashes there are, I'm assuming, the kind that denote interruption (and would usually end up being a single em dash.)

"Then that means the murderer must be--"
"Yes! Celine Dion!"

In the example, I can't really see the justification for using dashes at all. You can't really interrupt yourself by shrugging.

Bufty · Feb 16, 2011

He shrugged. "That's fine."

Terie · Feb 16, 2011

Terie said:
This is incorrect, too. In dialogue, punctuation always goes inside the quote marks. ALWAYS.

"That--" he shrugged "--is fine."

For non-dialogue use of quote marks, usage varies; US standards are different from UK standards.

Torgo said:
Those dashes there are, I'm assuming, the kind that denote interruption (and would usually end up being a single em dash.)

Yeah. When typing in an application that just uses plain text, I use two en-dashes (the kind you get when you type the 'dash' key) to represent an em-dash.

Torgo said:
In the example, I can't really see the justification for using dashes at all. You can't really interrupt yourself by shrugging.

I agree. I wouldn't write the thing that way myself.

But if one were going to, one needs to put the punctuation inside, not outside, the quote marks.

Dr.Gonzo · Feb 16, 2011

You're wrong, Terie.

Terie · Feb 16, 2011

Dr.Gonzo said:
You're wrong, Terie.

Okay. I guess that means Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary, Chicago Manual of Style, and Gregg's Reference Manual are also wrong.

Please cite some recognised sources to support your contention. Alternatively, please provide examples from books published by commerical publishers.

Because just saying 'you're wrong' doesn't help anyone who wants to know how to do it correctly. If you want to prove me wrong (and if you do, I'll happily concede the point), you have to, yanno, prove it.

CaroGirl · Feb 16, 2011

Dr.Gonzo said:
That looks very wrong to me. I've seen it used the other way many times.

I've never seen em-dashes outside the quotation marks, as in Splendad's example, ever. Terie and her sources are correct. If you have sources to cite that support em-dashes outside the quote marks, I'd love to see them.

Dr.Gonzo · Feb 16, 2011

I've got a book right here with an example. Is one example enough?

American Psycho, page 17, line 8: 'His piece of sushi was'--I caugh, then resume--'a pet?'

There's plenty more examples of this.

Julie Worth · Feb 16, 2011

absitinvidia said:
"That"--he shrugged--"is fine."

This is correct.

Terie · Feb 16, 2011

Dr.Gonzo said:
I've got a book right here with an example. Is one example enough?

American Psycho, page 17, line 8: 'His piece of sushi was'--I caugh, then resume--'a pet?'

There's plenty more examples of this.

Okay. I'll concede. Where are the spaces, if any? (Because I'm curious, not because I doubt you.)

Dr.Gonzo · Feb 16, 2011

Terie said:
Okay. I'll concede. Where are the spaces, if any? (Because I'm curious, not because I doubt you.)

No spaces at all. It's exactly how I posted, but that may have more to do with house style as I've noticed it with the regular em dashes on occaision.

I understand the dash can happen within tags also, but I think that is more designed to show a break in the actual speach, whereas this shows the narrator interjecting without actually stopping the flow of dialogue the character is speaking.

Terie · Feb 16, 2011

Dr.Gonzo said:
No spaces at all. It's exactly how I posted, but that may have more to do with house style as I've noticed it with the regular em dashes on occaision.

I understand the dash can happen within tags also, but I think that is more designed to show a break in the actual speach, whereas this shows the narrator interjecting without actually stopping the flow of dialogue the character is speaking.

I still think inside the quote marks is the most common usage (though I'm going to watch to see), but obviously, some houses are using the other. Personally, I prefer to use the most common usage in my own manuscripts whenever there's a strong preference, but the main thing is to be consistent. Consistent usage is usually easy for a typesetter to change; inconsistent usage drives those folks nuts.

CaroGirl · Feb 16, 2011

Dr.Gonzo said:
No spaces at all. It's exactly how I posted, but that may have more to do with house style as I've noticed it with the regular em dashes on occaision.

I understand the dash can happen within tags also, but I think that is more designed to show a break in the actual speach, whereas this shows the narrator interjecting without actually stopping the flow of dialogue the character is speaking.

Except, I assume "cough" is spelled correctly.

I see what you're saying but I, personally, think it's a clunky construction.

Dr.Gonzo · Feb 16, 2011

I know what you mean. I just think the two ways mean different things. I would use your way if the actual dialogue is being cut off, and I would use the way that has been under debate as a way for the narrator to add something without implying there is some break or interruption to the dialogue the characters in the scene are hearing.

Of course, it isn't the standard way, and I would use it sparingly. I think I'd mostly use it on long streams of dialogue where I want to add something without causing a pause, allowing whatever speach to continue flowing. Due to the lack of other punctuation, it reads very fast.

Dr.Gonzo · Feb 16, 2011

CaroGirl said:
Except, I assume "cough" is spelled correctly.

I see what you're saying but I, personally, think it's a clunky construction.

Quite.

LynnKHollander · Feb 16, 2011

Splendad said:
.

Tag interrupting a dialog sentence:
"That," he said, "is fine. Whatever you decide."
"That, "he said, "is fine. What does she think?"

Narrative sentence interrupting a dialog sentence:
"That." He shrugged. "Is fine. Whatever you decide."

~~I have always felt these were poor examples. When I explain "Tag interrupting a dialogue sentence", I use this sentence: "No, sir," he protested, "you are wrong." ((Notice the dialogue sentence is broken at already existing comma points: "No, sir, you are wrong."))

I think leaving "That" and "Is fine" dangling separate and alone is nonsense. I use this when I reach dialogue surrounding a narrative sentence: "He keeps his opinions to himself?" Martin opened the lions' cage and ran for his life. "Why does he do that?"

And on the latest topic: I -- always -- use spaces.

Comma within quotations

Correcting a man? Be right.

Writer is as Writer does

illiterate primate

Correcting a man? Be right.

A bit of a wallflower

Writer is as Writer does

Wonderfully Irreverent

Writer is as Writer does

Wonderfully Irreverent

Formerly Phantom of Krankor.

Where have the last ten years gone?

Writer is as Writer does

Wonderfully Irreverent

Writer is as Writer does

Living the dream

Wonderfully Irreverent

What? I have a title?

Writer is as Writer does

Wonderfully Irreverent

Writer is as Writer does

Living the dream

Wonderfully Irreverent

Wonderfully Irreverent

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