Portraying three-dimensional homophobes

Mara · Feb 5, 2011

Okay, so it's a bit cliched, but one supporting character in my story is from a conservative planet and has a conservative religion that "doesn't approve" of gay people. The religion might be a version of a real-world religion, or might be a little modified. She actually thinks of herself as more moderate than most members of her religion, but is kinda ignorant.

Anyway, she finds out that one of the main characters (a good friend of hers) is gay and in a relationship with another woman (who is also an alien, which adds to this supporting character's discomfort.) She's not an ultra-homophobe, but she definitely doesn't approve and thinks her friend is making a big mistake.

I know that "conservative religion" doesn't automatically mean any sort of problem with gay people, and that I could basically leave out the homophobia entirely, and I might end up doing that, but right now, I'm writing it with that little conflict left in. (And also, I know I could just have her express a problem with interspecies dating, but I want some of the other characters who have a problem with the interspecies part to feel a little awkward about this character adding the homophobia part.)

So, are there any pitfalls or ultra-cliches I should avoid? I want the character to be somewhat homophobic of the well-meaning sort who was really sheltered growing up, but I don't want her to be a walking stereotype or a straw man. And I haven't read a lot of books with homophobic characters in them, so I don't know all of the worn-out cliches.

(And yes, I know having a token homophobe in a story with gay characters is a cliche itself, but my gut instinct says it's what fits best.)

Anne Lyle · Feb 5, 2011

I don't know about pitfalls, as I'm trying to write something similar and I hope it comes out OK. However I have a gay beta-reader and he didn't have any complaints about it, so I think I'm safe.

The scenario is this. One of my PoVs, who unbeknownst to most of the other characters is a young woman disguised as a boy, has a very conventional in-period Christian attitude to sodomy i.e. "you're going to burn in hell" - but she works in the theatre, where boys take women's roles (though she's not an actor herself, she's a dresser). And being very young, she's not in a position to be aggressively homophobic towards gay adults.

I try and show her outrage/embarrassment in ways the reader can empathise with and/or laugh at (like when she catches the gay couple shagging noisily in her bed!) - I try to present her as prissy rather than narrowly homophobic. And because of the combination of her youthful ignorance, vulnerability, and her disguise making her a potential target for predatory men with a taste for pretty boys (and by that I mean paedophiles, not gay men), I think that helps with the empathy.

Much later in the book, there's a serious scene when one of the gay guys points out that she's being somewhat of a hypocrite, given her job dressing boys up as women. The scales are lifted from her eyes, at least a little, and she resolves to be a bit more Christian in future.

I don't know if this helps, but maybe it will spark some discussion!

Mara · Feb 5, 2011

Also, I do have some real life experience with religious homophobes, but I've only had two reactions from people I've actually known when I came out to them. Some of them pretty much changed their beliefs instantly and apologized for having said anything homophobic around me before they knew. The others just stopped talking to me entirely. But the first is too simple and doesn't quite fit this character (although she does get over it), and the latter isn't very interesting for the story.

Also, this character isn't just talking to the main character she has an issue with, but also occasionally privately to another supporting character.
---------------------------------------
Thanks, Anne Lyle.

sunandshadow · Feb 5, 2011

I have a homophobic (among other -phobics) character in one of my stories, and he is very into tradition. Not religion so much, although their religion does have the idea that their race proceeds toward it's grand destiny by producing children, so anyone who doesn't produce children is being... is there a religious equivalent of 'unpatriotic'? But mainly I try to present him as having a somewhat obsessive-compulsive sense of order. He's not opposed to gay people in particular, he's opposed to anyone who breaks the pattern of society. He thinks of the smooth progress of civilization as being like a symphony; he was raised to revere his family tradition, lands, heraldry, history, and he loves holidays as symbols of the progression of life. He thinks he is doing a good thing by trying to force sour notes to get back in tune or get out of town.

Then he accidentally slips into being a sour note himself (sires a half-breed child out of wedlock, then gets a curse put on him), which is very upsetting to him. He tries more and more forcefully to fix this, and when he can't he loses his sanity a bit.

veinglory · Feb 5, 2011

I think it comes down to the idea that the world has a natural order and people should follow it. That's a very old tradition that applies to gender, sexuality, class, race, species and pretty much everything. You are put in your place and you are meant to be happy with it and stay in that role as it is conventionally understood. I can sort of relate to that even without agreeing with it in anyway. It would be convenient if life was really that tidy. Boring, but convenient.

Georgina · Feb 5, 2011

There's a great saying that I first read via Joss Whedon, though I understand he didn't coin it: "Everyone is a hero in their own mind."

Using this, I think you can create almost any character by twisting the story around and looking at it from their perspective. So, firstly, your character isn't just a homophobe: she has her own life, likes, dislikes, loves, fears, etc. That'll help make her three-dimensonal.

Secondly, I'd consider what it is about homosexuality that makes her uncomfortable. In my experience, there's a several different reasons that religious people may be homophobic:

1 :: They truly believe that homosexuality is a sin, as defined by their religion.

2 :: They're prejudiced against homosexuals and use religion to rationalise their beliefs.

3 :: They have homosexual feelings themselves and, believing they're wrong, use homophobia to deal with them.

It sounds as though your homophobe is mostly (1), which I think you should be able to portray sympathetically. I'd also give your character some positive qualities to balance it out. The big cliché for me is the evil homophobe who also kicks puppies, hates women, is a racist douche, etc. By making your character have a balance of positive and negative qualities, you should be able to avoid the feeling that they're just there to be The Homophobe (tm).

Hope that helps!

Cheers.

Max Vaehling · Feb 6, 2011

The way I understand this particular phobe, she respects and likes the gay protagonist in any other way. Which means she doesn't only have a problem with that protagonist, but her own feelings are conflicted. Fleshing this out could help make her reaction more human.

She could withdraw a little from her lesbian friend, maybe even without noticing herself. (If any of the other protagonists point it out to her, she'd probably deny.)
She could act particularly rude and / or traditional around her.
She could try to hide part of those feelings.
She could deny any of this is happening. Including her friend's relationship.
Or maybe try to rationalize it as "a phase", a delusion (on her friend's side) or something else she won't have to take seriously.

And, of course, she could make an effort to come to terms with her own contradictions.

absitinvidia · Feb 6, 2011

Something to keep in mind: most of these prejudices are irrational in nature, so you want to be careful trying to find a rational framework in which to fit it, because there might not be one. Overcoming such a prejudice involves realizing the irrationality of it.

YMMV.

trailerbride · Feb 6, 2011

Mara said:
Anyway, she finds out that one of the main characters (a good friend of hers) is gay and in a relationship with another woman (who is also an alien, which adds to this supporting character's discomfort.)

I'm not sure if this is flippant or not, but how can a member of a different species be a woman? Even if the genders of that species can be equate to male and female?

Surely what you have here is a relationship that most conservative religions would consider bestiality?

I'm fairly sure they're all opposed to that. Unless, of course, it's baby animals in which case it's perfectly acceptable so long as no-one finds out about it.

Deleted member 42 · Feb 6, 2011

Mara said:
She's not an ultra-homophobe, but she definitely doesn't approve and thinks her friend is making a big mistake.

I wanted to point out that you're not really using homophobe correctly, here.

Homophobia is a psychological illness; it is an unreasoning and uncontrollable fear.

Someone who is homophobic is inclined to be perceived as irrational in their reactions even by people, who, for instance, think all homosexuals are damned eternally and/or ought to be criminally prosecuted.

The dictionary definition usually revolves around "Fear or contempt"--you can't be a little homophobic. Nor is it a rational reaction. It is extreme.

I realize you are using the word as it is often used, but since it really and truly is a phobia, I wanted to point that out.

There's a discussion here that's worth reading.

Deleted member 42 · Feb 6, 2011

trailerbride said:
I'm not sure if this is flippant or not, but how can a member of a different species be a woman? Even if the genders of that species can be equate to male and female?

Surely what you have here is a relationship that most conservative religions would consider bestiality?

Oh for crying out loud--

Let me walk you through this, from a number of pov.

1. Woman doesn't mean what you think it means; it derives from OE wife man. Wife is used for females as well as males--it refers to a role, not a sex.

2. Gender does NOT equate to biological sex. Sorry; it really doesn't.

3. You're making assumptions about the meaning of "alien"; re-read the post.

4. You're making assumptions about "conservative religion"; re-read the post.

Also: Read the Stickie that says Skip this at your own peril, because you just appeared on my radar screen.

backslashbaby · Feb 6, 2011

Let's see if I can add anything. Mostly, I'd say some of the folks I knew truly believed it was a sin and that gay people could 'get help'. As strange as it sounds, it's like it was thought of as having a mental illness oor something.

One that I've heard more used in issues of mixed race, but also regarding homosexuality: it's such a hard life. It's hard on the kids (don't you want kids?), hard on the families. People will treat you so badly; please don't be gay. Clearly this goes along with believing that therapy or something could help ungay somebody.

Alan Yee · Feb 6, 2011

Medievalist said:
you can't be a little homophobic

I trust your expertise, but I still have an honest question: what word do you think would be the most precise and accurate to describe someone who disapproves of homosexuality and thinks that queer people should not have the same rights as straight married couples, but who is not as extreme as a true homophobe? I did read the Religious Tolerance page about homophobia, which says more specific words don't exist, but I was wondering what you would personally say instead of "a little homophobic."

AyJay · Feb 6, 2011

Interesting characters have flaws, so if your character's flaw is that she's intolerant of her friend's sexuality/relationships but she has some redeeming traits, I think most readers will be ok with the portrayal.

The nice thing about fantasy is you can explore real life contemporary issues in unexpected ways (e.g. many people take the Xmen series as allegory for racial oppression or queer oppression) so--just an off the cuff response--the human/alien 'issue' sounds more interesting than the homophobia issue.

Deleted member 42 · Feb 6, 2011

Alan Yee said:
I trust your expertise, but I still have an honest question: what word do you think would be the most precise and accurate to describe someone who disapproves of homosexuality and thinks that queer people should not have the same rights as straight married couples, but who is not as extreme as a true homophobe? I did read the Religious Tolerance page about homophobia, which says more specific words don't exist, but I was wondering what you would personally say instead of "a little homophobic."

Bigot works quite often.

As a test, you can take a statement by someone, and substitute a race or religion or ethnic group, for a references to queer folk; it often reveals bigotry, not fear.

Phobia means unreasoning, uncontrollable fear. People who suffer a phobia would like to be other than they are; bigots are quite convinced in their "rightness."

Think of other phobias--agoraphobia so cripples people that they can't, they really can't, go out in public. A phobia is a fear so crippling that it affects one's entire life.

Phobia = fear; bigotry = hatred. Granted, the Venn diagrams will have a margin of overlap, but I'd just as soon not excuse bigotry/hatred, with mental illness.

trailerbride · Feb 6, 2011

Medievalist said:
Oh for crying out loud--

Let me walk you through this, from a number of pov.

1. Woman doesn't mean what you think it means; it derives from OE wife man. Wife is used for females as well as males--it refers to a role, not a sex.

2. Gender does NOT equate to biological sex. Sorry; it really doesn't.

3. You're making assumptions about the meaning of "alien"; re-read the post.

4. You're making assumptions about "conservative religion"; re-read the post.

Also: Read the Stickie that says Skip this at your own peril, because you just appeared on my radar screen.

Of course I am making assumptions. We all do, everyday. For example, you appear to have assumed that I am a Bad and Stupid Person rather than treat me with anything remotely akin to respect. As it happens, I'm fairly sure I could defend my assumptions about "religion" and "alien" within the context of the original post but then you would feel honour bound to defend your assumptions and prejudices and I'm sure we all know where that road leads. Life is really far too short.

Deleted member 42 · Feb 6, 2011

trailerbride said:
Of course I am making assumptions. We all do, everyday. For example, you appear to have assumed that I am a Bad and Stupid Person rather than treat me with anything remotely akin to respect. As it happens, I'm fairly sure I could defend my assumptions about "religion" and "alien" within the context of the original post but then you would feel honour bound to defend your assumptions and prejudices and I'm sure we all know where that road leads. Life is really far too short.

Ah.

Well then.

And you really ought to read those stickies. Because there isn't going to be another warning.

Mara · Feb 6, 2011

Thanks for the responses. The more I write this, the more I'm thinking I won't have the anti-gay response by the secondary character be a big deal. It's might stay, just it gives another secondary character reason to reconsider his initial negative reaction to the MC dating an alien. But the more I think about it, the more I realize I just can't portray the character as really anti-gay without instinctively resorting to making her a straw man.

Medievalist said:
I wanted to point out that you're not really using homophobe correctly, here.

Not in the original sense, no. I actually resisted adopting the word for quite a while, but most people use it for a wide range of things and it was easier for me to adapt. But thanks for pointing that out. I've actually been considering trying to change my vocabulary a little on that point, but it's difficult because "bigot" sounds even blunter and more confrontational than "homophobe."

trailerbride said:
I'm not sure if this is flippant or not, but how can a member of a different species be a woman? Even if the genders of that species can be equate to male and female?

Surely what you have here is a relationship that most conservative religions would consider bestiality?

I'm fairly sure they're all opposed to that. Unless, of course, it's baby animals in which case it's perfectly acceptable so long as no-one finds out about it.

The alien looks basically human, even though she's not, and can pass for human, and thinks like a human. It's science fantasy, not science fiction, so I'm not going for very realistic species differences here. They can't have offspring with each other, but are physically and culturally similar. Think Star Trek aliens.

The particular religion in this setting would reserve bestiality for having sex with non-sentient animals, if they have that belief at all. (I mean, there are a lot of religions in this setting, I would think, although I'm leaving most of them completely undefined and not mentioned because they're not part of this story.) Opposition to dating aliens is generally covered by something that would vaguely equate to a combination of beliefs opposed to interracial dating, dating members of another religion, dating someone of a different nationality, and dating the enemy (in this case.) But yes, the secondary character's religion is opposed to this sort of thing, especially with this particular race. But the secondary character has also never really been an alien-hater, and didn't have a problem with the two MCs being friends until she found out they were more than friends, so she'll probably get over the interracial/interspecies thing too.

EDIT: Oh, about the alien/species thing. Sorry for any confusion there. There are alien humans in this setting (humans who don't live on the planet it's set on) and alien non-humans (who are basically humans anyway but technically not.) The main character is dating an alien non-human, and the secondary characterw who has the problem with it is an alien human. So yes, trailerbride's assumption that I meant a different species was correct, and I did mention interspecies later in my post, but not in the first few sentences. Sorry about that.

plunderpuss · Feb 7, 2011

Mara said:
So, are there any pitfalls or ultra-cliches I should avoid? I want the character to be somewhat homophobic of the well-meaning sort who was really sheltered growing up, but I don't want her to be a walking stereotype or a straw man.

I'm going to be honest. I don't think I can stomach reading an entire discussion on this, so I didn't do more than skim some of the other replies. But I really approve of your efforts, because the more realistic the problems in your book are, the more they reflect in real life. Instead of warning you away from pitfalls, how about sharing reality? Here are some things people who are unconsciously homophobic (including family) have said to me or where I could hear:

"I am fine with gay marriage, I just don't think they should have children. Kids need a male and female role model or they won't know how to interact as an adult." (From a really close friend, even!)

"If they talk really gay, you can tell they're just doing it on purpose to make sure you know." (That especially pisses me off. I can't do ANYTHING about my voice. People say this one about public displays of affection, too--somehow it's just to make sure everyone sees the gayness, not because they're doing exactly what hetero couples do.)

And something I've definitely encountered is a series of subtle cues that show the homophobe is afraid you're checking them out or trying to touch them. As soon as they find out you're gay, they stiffen up if you pat them on the back or jokingly punch them on the arm or something. It's possible your character would be one of those people, who is afraid this means her friend wants to have sex with her (like being a lesbian means she wants to have sex with every woman ever, haha).

I hope I wasn't too repetitive of others. Thanks for putting the effort into this, and good luck!

Anne Lyle · Feb 7, 2011

plunderpuss said:
And something I've definitely encountered is a series of subtle cues that show the homophobe is afraid you're checking them out or trying to touch them. As soon as they find out you're gay, they stiffen up if you pat them on the back or jokingly punch them on the arm or something. It's possible your character would be one of those people, who is afraid this means her friend wants to have sex with her (like being a lesbian means she wants to have sex with every woman ever, haha).

Yeah, my cross-dressing heroine is initially worried that the gay guys are interested in, to quote Blackadder, "the contents of her tights". She eventually realises that one of them is only trying to make friends and the other is just highly extrovert and inclined to be kinda physical even when he's not interested as such.

Deleted member 42 · Feb 7, 2011

plunderpuss said:
"I am fine with gay marriage, I just don't think they should have children. Kids need a male and female role model or they won't know how to interact as an adult." (From a really close friend, even!)

That's an asshat, verging on bigot.

plunderpuss said:
And something I've definitely encountered is a series of subtle cues that show the homophobe is afraid you're checking them out or trying to touch them. As soon as they find out you're gay, they stiffen up if you pat them on the back or jokingly punch them on the arm or something.

That, right there, is a genuine classic instance of homophobia--one of the prime characteristics is fear of contagion i.e. of "catching teh gay".

LivingDork · Feb 8, 2011

There are several mentions of this already, but especially in rampantly anti-gay men, you'll find what I call a strong current of internalize homophobia. For those of you familiar with the term, it is based on the concept of internalized racism.

Basically, it means that someone raised in a conservative house/family/city/religion will unconsciously internalize all the hate they hear directed at the Queer community, thus lashing out at those who can express their true sexuality, while they can not.
I have two examples:
1. The football player on Glee who has made poor Kurt's life a living hell. He's gay, but not out, obviously.
2. Neil from Augusten Burrough's Running with Scissors, specifically in the chaper "The Jot of Sex

reteen edition.

Of course, you can also refer to all the gay-bashing pastors who get caught with gat lovers. Hope that helps a little!

plunderpuss · Feb 9, 2011

Medievalist said:
That's an asshat, verging on bigot.

Perhaps surprisingly, I don't think so. I mean, from our standpoint, it's grotesque and terrible and utterly stupid, but every case is different, and here, I believe it was only simple ignorance. In her situation, everything was heteronormative (and Catholic) except one batshitcrazy lesbian family member whose son was incapable of having healthy relationships with women.

She changed her mind quickly when I pointed out that what she thought of as necessary, gender-specific roles were simply a variety of behaviors that could be held by personalities, not genitals.

I don't know...I may be too lenient on this. I just can't bring myself to call asshat on someone whose entire life had been filled with evidence contradicting the truth. Especially when she accepted it so easily once it had been pointed out.

And all her (many) children are totally supportive and respectful, so she passed on what she learned.

I guess that's why I appreciate this topic so much. I really like it when fiction portrays its characters with such depth that I can feel the same range of annoyance, understanding, rage, pity, and earnest hope for them that I do for real people. I hope the OP can use our replies to do that!

Deleted member 42 · Feb 9, 2011

plunderpuss said:
She changed her mind quickly when I pointed out that what she thought of as necessary, gender-specific roles were simply a variety of behaviors that could be held by personalities, not genitals.

I don't know...I may be too lenient on this. I just can't bring myself to call asshat on someone whose entire life had been filled with evidence contradicting the truth. Especially when she accepted it so easily once it had been pointed out. And all her (many) children are totally supportive and respectful, so she passed on what she learned.

Fair cop.

I also notice a lot of differences in assumptions about labor and roles in urban environments that simply don't carry over to rural ones.

Gale Haut · Feb 10, 2011

plunderpuss said:
I'm going to be honest. I don't think I can stomach reading an entire discussion on this, so I didn't do more than skim some of the other replies. But I really approve of your efforts, because the more realistic the problems in your book are, the more they reflect in real life. Instead of warning you away from pitfalls, how about sharing reality? Here are some things people who are unconsciously homophobic (including family) have said to me or where I could hear:

"I am fine with gay marriage, I just don't think they should have children. Kids need a male and female role model or they won't know how to interact as an adult." (From a really close friend, even!)

"If they talk really gay, you can tell they're just doing it on purpose to make sure you know." (That especially pisses me off. I can't do ANYTHING about my voice. People say this one about public displays of affection, too--somehow it's just to make sure everyone sees the gayness, not because they're doing exactly what hetero couples do.)

And something I've definitely encountered is a series of subtle cues that show the homophobe is afraid you're checking them out or trying to touch them. As soon as they find out you're gay, they stiffen up if you pat them on the back or jokingly punch them on the arm or something. It's possible your character would be one of those people, who is afraid this means her friend wants to have sex with her (like being a lesbian means she wants to have sex with every woman ever, haha).

I hope I wasn't too repetitive of others. Thanks for putting the effort into this, and good luck!

I have one to add. About 50% of the time (yeah it's a random statistic) that someone finds out about my sexuality in conversation I get this:

"I had no idea. I mean I really would not have had any clue. Wow." The tone being that of a compliment. Like I deserve an Oscar nomination or something... And this is coming from both men and women.

Portraying three-dimensional homophobes

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