Are all writers compulsive critiquers?

The first is this: I’ve yet to find a piece posted on SYW where the majority response is, “Top work. Maybe shift this comma and trim that sentence, but otherwise don’t touch a thing.”

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99.9% of the time, even with edits, you won't get something universally considered "top work". 99.9% of people who write can't achieve that level; that's why so few people who try and get an agent or try and get published, fail.

I can't read anything without wanting to critique it. That includes published works by famous authors. I read the last HP novel to my son and just about had an anurism.

I've even begun to point out plot holes in movies and television shows! Personally, I agree with you; I'm just more aware of mistakes now than I was before. Doesn't mean I don't keep making them, but at least when it comes to the editing stage, I know what I'm looking for.

For question 2-I self-edit because I used to be to be terrified at the thought of having anyone read my work so self-editing was the only option. I wish I had taken the step to put my writing out there. It might have shortened the time it took to get published. I still don't let anyone read anything until it's very polished though. Old habits don't die.

Janwyl, I'm reading The Hobbit to my daughter right now and have no urge to edit. It's great.

janwyl said:

Have I just missed the “right-first-time” stuff in SYW? Are there in fact plenty of pieces that received exuberant standing ovations? (Please don’t think I am denigrating anything that didn’t receive a standing ovation. I’ve seen lots of really excellent stuff in SYW, but everything I’ve seen has needed work – and that’s not my opinion, it’s the opinion of all those critiquing it.

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It's been my experince that it's impossible to post anything, anywhere, at any time that anyone will say is just fine as is, even if you stick your name on an award-winning short story. According to critiquers, everything needs work, even if it's the best thing ever written.

I think some amount of pedantry is a necessity if you want to become a writer. I try to only critique when it's constructive though.

I've noticed that too, janwyl. I sometimes slip into a hive-mind where I jump on a bandwagon of "don't do this," "you must do that," etc even when it's not the right input for the piece. I sometimes don't crit when I read a piece I don't have much comment on, as the temptation is to be overly harsh and nit-picky just for the sake of having something to say. I'm just speaking for me here, I don't know if others have caught themselves doing that. There is also the personal taste of the critter, and I do my best to leave my taste out of it when I crit.

In getting input, I remind myself that I don't have to please every critter with my revisions. If a suggestion makes the story stronger, I use it. If I don't think it works, then I don't use it.

Oh, and in reading other people's published stuff, I tend to be less critical but I do look for things I like and can use and things I don't like and need to avoid.

"Don't change a thing" doesn't tell the author where the piece might be improved...and usually, if they're posting in SYW, that's what they want to know.

Occasional "This is great" posts do surface, and they let the author know that they're on the right track, but I don't personally find them nearly as helpful as the ones that shred the piece.

As for writers being "compulsive critiquers"...yeah. I think that, in general, we are. We think about writing all the damn time, and whenever we read something--anything--most of us are, at least on some level, comparing that work to our own, analyzing stylistic elements, and keeping a sharp eye on construction and grammar.

It comes from the constant desire to improve our own work, and from countless hours spent with our "editor" hats on.

And anything can be improved.

No written thing is universally loved.

It's just the nature of the beast.

The thing is that there is no universal standard for what can be considered "great". One man's unforgetable book might've been thrown against the wall by another man. So, while one person may love a piece, another might hate it. Writing is so subjective that, by different standards, any single piece can be improved, even the novels that are already considered "classics". This happens especially as you grow as a writer and start learning what works for you and what doesn't; you come to realize what bothers you about other people's writing and that in turn gives you more weapons with which to shred them.

DamaNegra said:

The thing is that there is no universal standard for what can be considered "great". One man's unforgetable book might've been thrown against the wall by another man. So, while one person may love a piece, another might hate it. Writing is so subjective that, by different standards, any single piece can be improved, even the novels that are already considered "classics". This happens especially as you grow as a writer and start learning what works for you and what doesn't; you come to realize what bothers you about other people's writing and that in turn gives you more weapons with which to shred them.

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Dama pretty much nailed it, so I'll just quote her.

ETA: I don't think of myself as a compulsive critiquer. I try hard to turn off my own internal editor when I'm reading for pleasure, because I don't want to nitpick everything I read.

Though I'm sure the SYW board is greatly helpful for some people, I don't go there and I never really did. I like to know the people who are doing the critiquing, at least by their real names.

The few times that I have glanced at that board, I've seen some great critique, but also some critique that was just way out of the ballpark and could easily do in a writer with little confidence or without the ability to filter the good critique from the bad.

Keep in mind that many, many people on here are anonymous. They are not accountable. Most people on these forums mean well, but some hide behind those anonymous avatars and abuse them. That just makes me reluctant to recommend the SYW forum to new writers.

If you invite criticism, you will get it. And lots of times when you don't invite it.

As for my own preferences, I self edit until I feel that I'm done. Then I send it off to a few beta readers whose opinions I respect. Then I rewrite.

I was involved with a great critique group back in Cincinnati and they helped tremendously when it came to keeping my WIP on track (Amarie!) and seeing where my plot was going wrong. I think I'm much further along in my WIP than I would be without them.

But I also had to be disciplined enough to realize that I needed to focus on the big picture first and just keep the notes on the smaller stuff for later. It's easy to get caught up in rewriting the same chapter over and over again. Then you end up with a beautiful chapter and nothing else.

It's all about opinion and personal tastes. What one writer might find to be a well-written passage, another might find it needs just a little tweeking.

Just like one writer might love mysteries, another might abhor them and prefer romance.

Just as there is no universally loved writer, each of us has our own favorites.

The trick to posting in SYW is to learn to take what you think is good advice that will help improve your story AS YOU WANT IT, not as they want it, and learn to tune out the rest.

Me, I've given up on SYW and Beta readers.

happywritermom said:

The few times that I have glanced at that board, I've seen some great critique, but also some critique that was just way out of the ballpark and could easily do in a writer with little confidence or without the ability to filter the good critique from the bad.

Keep in mind that many, many people on here are anonymous. They are not accountable. Most people on these forums mean well, but some hide behind those anonymous avatars and abuse them. That just makes me reluctant to recommend the SYW forum to new writers.

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Far fewer critters abuse their anonymity than those seeking critique. (See the threads on the newish 50-post minimum.)

SYW is the FIRST thing I recommend to new writers, old writers, and any writers who ask where they can get feedback. At the early stages, it's one of the best tools out there, IMO, because it's a measured sample and the wait is much shorter than a traditional beta arrangement.

Someone who's confidence is too fragile to take a brutally honest crit (I'm not talking the hit and run "This sucks" sort of thing) won't make it as a writer. They'll crumble the first time they get a rejection or a bad review.

One of the biggest positives with SYW is the fact that you don't know the people commenting and they don't know you. They have no more interest or reference than a reader who would pick up your book from a shelf, and they have no reason to baby the writer or temper their opinions. If you get 5 people who all pick out the same things that are "problems", regardless of their preferred genre, then it's a safe bet that there's a problem there that will stick out to anyone who reads the piece.

The thing is that there is no universal standard for what can be considered "great". One man's unforgetable book might've been thrown against the wall by another man. So, while one person may love a piece, another might hate it. Writing is so subjective that, by different standards, any single piece can be improved, even the novels that are already considered "classics"

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Oh yes. Well said.


I don't post my work for critique anymore. I'm at the point now where I'm objective enough to do it myself. In the past, I was pretty harsh on myself and needed the extra help. But I now understand perfection is unattainable. LOL.

Novels are new for me, and I still don't see a need to post my work. Maybe I'll change my mind, but I don't think so as I seem to be in the same mindset as with my screenplays. I've gotten to the point where I don't need someone else to critique my work.

I learned I was capable when the critiquing confused me more than it helped. My current WIP started out as a screenplay. My mentor is the reason it took so long to get into script form. I hated where the story was going, so after a nasty phone conversation with him, I ended up re-structuring, changing character motivations and pretty much killed everything else he suggested. It was after I finished that I realized I morphed into a writer, and I didn't need anyone to tell me where my story was going. Now I love it. This may sound crazy, but I'm glad all of this happened. My mentor, being hard on me, indirectly pushed me to do my best work, so for that I'll always be grateful to him.

The next thing I had to develop was objectivity. It's one of the most difficult traits for us writers to accomplish. Some of us think our work is the most brilliant work of art while others, like I used to be, think it should be tossed into the rubbish bin. It took me many years to get to a place where I know my work is ready. It'll never be perfect, but it'll be what it's meant to be —*a good story. To take it beyond that is to reach for something that doesn't exist. At least I haven't seen evidence of it anywhere. LOL.

How I know my work is ready: If I can manage to read through my work without being pulled out of the story, I know I'm there. That usually takes about three passes...in screenplay form. Even as I'm writing, I take out anything that pulls me out, which cuts down my editing time even more.

janwyl said:

A few questions as a result:

1. Have I just missed the “right-first-time” stuff in SYW? Are there in fact plenty of pieces that received exuberant standing ovations? (Please don’t think I am denigrating anything that didn’t receive a standing ovation. I’ve seen lots of really excellent stuff in SYW, but everything I’ve seen has needed work – and that’s not my opinion, it’s the opinion of all those critiquing it.)

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Keep looking. There are some pieces like that, though not many. I think the reason for that is most people who post in SYW are trying to learn some basics still. I know I was. I'm thinking that if you get to a point where your writing mechanics are so good, and you can spot your own plot/pacing/etc mistakes, then what's the point of posting? SYW is about getting better, mainly.

2. Are all writers inherently incapable of editing their own work properly? Or are there people who are so good at self-critting (and know it) that they don’t even bother with posting on SYW?

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It's a learning process. If we want to be successful we have to learn to edit our own work. For the second part of the question, yes, I think so. Also, it seems some of those people tend to have found reliable and excellent beta readers to help them.

3. Are writers equally incapable of leaving alone? Do fingers just itch to fiddle and tweak once the critiquing hat is donned? And in fact, once one starts to write, does the critiquing hat get glued in place? Do writers lose a sort of “audience innocence” forever?

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Some can hold off for pleasure. But yes, I notice mistakes, inconsistencies, elements I dislike; sometimes I just don't pay too much attention to my noticing. However, the noticing is essential in becoming a better writer. It is the same when you train your palate and then eat unseasoned food, for example. Your taste buds become specialized and allow you to more deeply enjoy good food, but also to recognize bad food, and thus dislike it. No chef makes good food without having a good palate – exercising it and analyzing with it.

4. Are there books out there that are universally judged as beautifully written? Or is the art of words so subjective that for any given work there will always be criticism that rings true for significant groups?

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Sure, but read the classics. Usually there are elements of the works that are significantly better than anything comparable. It may be the word choices themselves, it may be the plot, it may the moral of the story. It is not often everything is excellent. I love Shakespeare, think he was brilliant with words and stories, but for me, his humour is just not all that funny.

5. I never used to enjoy prize-winning novels much. Not sure why, but they always seemed too heavy or intense for my taste (or lack of). If I go back to them now, will I appreciate them more because I pay more attention to the way things are written?

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Maybe. Try it

BUT – good (and correct) writing does not only come from literary novels, which it seems to me are what you are describing. There are prize-winning novels in every category, of course, but 'heavy' and 'intense' sound like detail rich, realistic novels, to me. That could just be my own prejudice (though I love literary novels) rather than some sort of defining element. Something to keep in mind.

I want to add that my personal SYW experience was all about learning. I didn't know what I was going to learn when I posted my first chapter, but I knew it was something. I just hoped it wasn't overwhelming.

Because of SYW I now know some of the specific problems I have in my writing. That means I can edit for them myself.

I learned that I have to make my emotional subplots clearer by using more internal dialogue; I have to be careful with getting the order of reactions correct; clarity comes before my concept of redundant. I could go on and on.

Understanding what was missing and where I had gone wrong in the first chapter, made it possible for me to edit the whole book effectively. I'm sure there's lots more I don't know yet, and that's why I may be back in SYW – or I may just seek out good beta readers (note: the reason I didn't do that before SYW is because I knew the book wasn't strong enough. It was painful for me to read it, so it would be painful for betas too. I just had to find out why.)

I have a hard time looking at anything written and not taking a red pen to it. Including my own work.

I think that, as you become more aware and learn more, you start paying closer attention to what others are doing in your industry. IMHO, I don't think this is singular to writers.

Some of us (myself included) visited SYW during the earliest stages of our writing because we had not yet learned *how* to edit.

Learning how to critique yourself - to truly tear up and spit out your "baby" - is one of the hardest things to do. You have to not only understand how to do it, but also understand how to implement whave you've learned in the rest of your manuscript.

That's why everyone has something to say. They don't look at it from the angle of "this is bad writing I hate." They see it more along the lines of "if this was something I had written, how would I make it better?" ... Then they take those tecniques and apply it to their own craft.

I am a compulsive self-editor. That doesn't mean I always get it right, only that I cannot leave it alone.

I think SYW is a great place to get the early kind of help everyone needs before they can recognize their signature problems, the ones that keep showing up. It's also a good place to try out ideas for stories, characters, etc.

Lots of us here use our real names - or are recognizable through published works - but even if not, many have been here for so long that their real names might as well be whatever is above their avatar. SYW allows critique without personal feelings - this is a good thing. It is the writing that concerns us all, not the person. (We all love each other - and you- unreservedly)

If someone says your writing stinks, it may very well smell bad and you may need to do something specific to deodorize it. A good critic will hand you the writer's febreeze and show you where to squeeze the trigger. A very good critic will teach you that thing you need to know so your writing improves. But in SYW, you will get critics of all levels, some more accomplished than others. Part of what SYW can do for you is teach you how to accept, filter and use critiques.

And welcome - I see a couple of new names here - I am always glad to see new folks!

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janwyl said:

The first is this: I’ve yet to find a piece posted on SYW where the majority response is, “Top work. Maybe shift this comma and trim that sentence, but otherwise don’t touch a thing.”

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I've seen quite a few crits that didn't say much more than that. Most are in the poetry forum, but I've also seen these in the other forums, especially on work that has been posted after rewrites. Keep looking; you'll see them. They're the minority, but they're there.

The problems is, when you find a forum where there are a lot of posts like this, you're probably wasting your time posting there. That doesn't mean every long and nitpicky crit is right on every point--most of them won't be. But I think it's better to have 15 things pointed out so that I can decide I don't agree with 12 of them, but that the other 3 have merit, than to have someone say great job! when I know it's not that great.

There are dozens, probably hundreds of writing forums online where everybody just strokes everybody else and nobody questions the writer's choices or offers suggestions and honest critique. Writers there don't improve, but they sure feel great and warm and fuzzy about it anyway.

Shelley