Question on Model 1911 & Walther P22 damage inflicted

wilhem spihntingle · Jan 26, 2011

What kind of physical damage would be done to someone if they were shot in the chest 6 times with a Model 1911 pistol with a supressor on it, from a distance of about 8 feet.

What about if the gun was a Walther P22 with supressor?

What size entry holes would be made and how much blood would there be?

The victim would not have a shirt on.

Thanks in advance!

Sean

Drachen Jager · Jan 26, 2011

Not all bullets expand, it depends on the type of load. If the 1911 is firing military .45s they will not expand. I don't think expanding .22s would be sensible for use on human targets, they would likely be more damaging if they were not an expanding type of ammunition.

I would expect NO exit wounds from the .22 and probably half to 3/4s of the hits from the .45 exiting depending on the ammunition used (if it is ball, military issue, that may be closer to 100%)

Exit wounds can be any size, from .45 to nearly fist sized, depending on the nature of the bullet, what it impacted internally and how it exited.

With an average adult male there would be about 2.5-3 litres of blood. Amount will vary depending on the size of your victim and perhaps where/how the bullets hit (some of that blood may bleed into the chest or stomach cavities, or a shot to the brain or heart could cause the heart to stop pumping faster).

wilhem spihntingle · Jan 26, 2011

Drachen Jager said:
Not all bullets expand, it depends on the type of load. If the 1911 is firing military .45s they will not expand. I don't think expanding .22s would be sensible for use on human targets, they would likely be more damaging if they were not an expanding type of ammunition.

I would expect NO exit wounds from the .22 and probably half to 3/4s of the hits from the .45 exiting depending on the ammunition used (if it is ball, military issue, that may be closer to 100%)

Exit wounds can be any size, from .45 to nearly fist sized, depending on the nature of the bullet, what it impacted internally and how it exited.

With an average adult male there would be about 2.5-3 litres of blood. Amount will vary depending on the size of your victim and perhaps where/how the bullets hit (some of that blood may bleed into the chest or stomach cavities, or a shot to the brain or heart could cause the heart to stop pumping faster).

DR- The POV is from someone who has never seen a gun, doesn't know anything about them and witnesses the above scenario and is quicky ushered from the scene seconds after the shots are fired. Looking to describe what he's see's. All six shots are to the chest / abdomen, no heart hit. non-expanding ammo. Do the entry wounds appear as holes that drip blood, flow heavily, or does it spurt out?

The victim is in a chair

Thanks,

Sean

Drachen Jager · Jan 26, 2011

The blood would spatter upon impact, if he were close enough the witness might see the fine red mist. Otherwise the entry wounds won't bleed too much in the first few seconds, if at all, the flesh closes over so the only real blood loss from the entry wounds is from the skin, not internal organs or anything. There will be a larger spray of material out the back, hitting the wall or floor, droplets will be larger than at the entry and there may be bits of other things there (bone and such). Those wounds will bleed quite profusely.

Google "gunshot wound" or "bullet wound" in google images, I won't post the images here for fear of offending. Check the pics you use, many of the ones I saw were haloween make-up, if the person looks fine otherwise or is not in a hospital setting assume it's fake.

Nivarion · Jan 26, 2011

If you go to look them up, I suggest doing the search "wound deer hunting" or "wound Hog hunting" otherwise, you'll end up with a lot of pictures of people wearing makeup wounds.

you might be able to do more specific searches like .45 ACP.

And as a final note, who shot the guy? A lot of criminals don't really care what they put through their guns, so its not uncommon for there to be several different types of ammo used in a multiple shot scenario.

jmarkbyrnes · Jan 26, 2011

The ammo used is that would determine everything. Hollow point? Non hollow point? Bullet grain? Regular powder? +P powder?

Obviously, from what you've told us about the dude witnessing the scene, he won't know any of this. So why don't you decide what kind of scene you want and then ask if it's feasible.

If you want a gruesome scene, choose the 1911 (almost always chambered in a .45 ACP) that is using non hollow point ammo. With six shots of non hollow point .45 ACP from 8 feet away, there will be a whole lot of bloody material blowing out the back of the victim.

-papaholmz

GregS · Jan 26, 2011

Lots of good stuff said already. I'll add a couple of points, though.

Ammo isn't simply limited to hollow point / non-hollow point. There's a slew of other options. To be sure, though, I would just do what Papaholmz (love the name, btw) said. Paint your picture, then ask us how to justify it if needs be. Otherwise, rest assured that most of what you would "want" to do is probably fine. You can have--but are not obligated to use--front spurts, rear gushes, mists, huge spatter patterns, no spatter patterns, near-perfect holes, hideous exit wounds, no exit wounds, instant death, long, slow, horrible death, sucking chest wounds, or bleed outs.

With the obvious exception that you can't blow the guy back across the room. People do not fly--or frequently even move much--from taking hits.

Also, because nobody's addressed it, the suppressor (silencer) has no functional impact on the wounds or the ballistics of the rounds.

wilhem spihntingle · Jan 27, 2011

Thanks everyone. All this is exactly what I was looking for and more!

Sean

jeseymour · Jan 27, 2011

The suppressor is not going to do much to dampen the volume of a .45 in a closed room. It will still be loud, unless your baddie is using sub-sonic ammo, which I think is possible with a 1911. I'm not an expert, just had lots of experts offer advice when I suggested using a silencer in my fiction. Have since quit doing it.

wilhem spihntingle · Jan 27, 2011

jeseymour said:
The suppressor is not going to do much to dampen the volume of a .45 in a closed room. It will still be loud, unless your baddie is using sub-sonic ammo, which I think is possible with a 1911. I'm not an expert, just had lots of experts offer advice when I suggested using a silencer in my fiction. Have since quit doing it.

Jeseymour- Yeah I kind of knew that based on some google video's I've watched, but it seems to keep the P22 pretty quiet and I think I'm going to go with that gun as it fits the setting

GeorgeK · Jan 27, 2011

wilhem spihntingle said:
. Do the entry wounds appear as holes that drip blood, flow heavily, or does it spurt out?

The victim is in a chair

Thanks,

Sean

I've seen only a few wounds from 45 cal pistols (probably less than a dozen); probably 20-40 from 22's (mostly longs rather than military) and probably close to 100 high powered rifle round wounds. (The first two were from a combination of me cleaning hunting kills and also as a retired surgeon, so some wounds were on humans and some on animals) The entry wounds even from hollowpoints were almost universally surprisingly subtle. The exit wounds however were dramatic. I doubt that there'd be an exit wound from your walther, but I'm not an expert on them. I don't remember there being exit wounds on those shot by the 45, but then I wasn't at the scene. For me to see them, they had to survive long enough to be brought to me. With the military rifles, those were me butchering pigs. However universally, the entrance wounds were small enough that the novice can overlook them. Behind the entrance wound there is so much damage with the high velocity rounds that the bleeding is through the exit wound. For a wound to bleed, you need a pumping heart and something to pump.

wilhem spihntingle · Jan 27, 2011

Thank's George. Taking the suggestions. Here is the scene. assuming "regular ammo' in the Walther. What don't I have right?

Dan tells me the golf cart looking thing is an Argo. He uses it to cross the river during bow hunting season. When I go to sit in it, I notice a gun is resting on the front seat.

"What the fuck is that?"

Shannon starts laughing. "Looks like a pistol. Don’t you think?"

"No shit." I look at Dan. "I never saw a real gun before. Is it loaded?"

"Always." Dan says. "Go ahead, it don’t bite, the safety's on."

I pick it up and it almost feels like a toy in my hand. There is a tube on the end of it. I turn away from them and point it at the wall, trying out a couple poses, like Dirty Harry. "What's this, a silencer?"

"Aye, a suppressor is what it's called."

"Never seen a gun before Shane?" Shannon says, looks at Dan and they both smile at me. "I figured you for a hard man?"

Dan tells me it's a Walther and he'll teach me to shoot it sometime. I tell him that would be cool, I'm up for it, and what I'd really like to see his bow and arrow.

"I can do that." He motions with his head to the door at the back of the shed. It looks sturdy and has a real lock on it like it should be in a house. "It's in there. Why don’t you put that down, before you shoot your fucking foot."

I put the gun on the table and follow Dan to the door, while Shannon goes over to where the CD's are to change the music. He pulls out a set of keys and while he's looking them over, "The Wild Rover" starts playing and I know it’s the Clancy Brothers because I heard it hundreds of time growing up.

"I love this fucking song, reminds me of my dad."

"Too your da," Shannon says, turning it up, and looking over at us.

Dan unlocks the door, pulls it open. It's dark and a foul shit-like smell, amplified I'm sure by the coke, hits my nose.

"What fucking stinks. It smells like shit."

"It is. A living, breathing, pile of it." Dan flips the light on and I'm fucking horrified, start back pedaling, but Shannon comes from behind and pushes me inside.

It happens so fast, no more than three seconds. Shannon lets off six shots, the shells flying out the right side of the gun, hitting the wall and bouncing to the floor. It is not loud like in the movies, just a mechanical ca-chink sound. Every shot hits McBride in the stomach, leaving small holes. A few seconds later, blood starts dripping out of them.

"What the fuck." I'm stammering, shaking, my legs feel like spaghetti. Shannon's already walked out. Dan pushes me back out of the room, slams the door shut and locks it.

GregS · Jan 28, 2011

It was a little hard to tell context from that scene, but it looks fine overall. I would change dripping to something more aggressive, though (streaming, running, etc.).

Also, assuming McBride is alive (and not a zombie, etc.), six .22 rounds to the stomach will take something on the order of hours to days to kill him. FYI.

Also, as a pure bit of side info since it came up, most .45 ammo (as in, almost all non-specialty ammo) is subsonic.

wilhem spihntingle · Jan 28, 2011

GregS said:
It was a little hard to tell context from that scene, but it looks fine overall. I would change dripping to something more aggressive, though (streaming, running, etc.).

Also, assuming McBride is alive (and not a zombie, etc.), six .22 rounds to the stomach will take something on the order of hours to days to kill him. FYI.

Also, as a pure bit of side info since it came up, most .45 ammo (as in, almost all non-specialty ammo) is subsonic.

Greg- Thanks for the advice. I'll change the dripping to something better. If I change it to he was hit in the chest, would that make him die faster and would the blood flow be different, say if one hit him in the heart?

Summonere · Jan 28, 2011

The Walther P22 looks and feels like a dinky little plastic toy you can slip in a pocket. Put a can on it, though, then the pocket-slipping-into niftiness goes away. (No, it's not the smallest thing out there, but in 3.4”-barrel trim and 15 ounces, the one I handled seemed ready to go into a coat pocket.)

Meanwhile, your description of the shooting – the sound and the effect upon target – sounds about right. Hit an artery, though, you get spurting. And hitting one of those, unfortunate McBride is not long for this fictional earth.

Stanmiller · Jan 28, 2011

W,

It reads OK. Suggest shooting him in the chest for quicker results. Also, the things flying out the ejection port are cases, not shells. Shotguns use shells, handguns and rifles shoot cartridges, one component of which is the case which holds the powder, primer, and bullet together.

The sound will be a pop like a balloon bursting, followed by a double-click as the slide cycles, then a ting as the case hits the floor.

Stan

wilhem spihntingle · Jan 28, 2011

Summere- Thanks for the added insight.

Stan- Glad you weighed in, this is valuable info.

jclarkdawe · Jan 28, 2011

So is McBride standing, sitting, falling to the ground, crashing to the ground, falling on his face, doubled over in pain from lead ingestion? You've got him standing there, receiving all these bullets, and then what?

I want to repeat that entry wounds can be next to invisible, and would be under a shirt. For a head wound with a moderate amount of hair and blood, you can spend what seems like forever trying to find the damn thing. Especially from a .22, they can practically seal themselves off, with no blood.

On the other hand, I've seen a .22 to the skull that dumped at least three units of blood on the floor, with no exit wound. Poor guy missed anything useful trying to commit suicide and survived for about ten hours. It was probably an hour or so before he was found.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

Tsu Dho Nimh · Jan 28, 2011

wilhem spihntingle said:
What kind of physical damage would be done to someone if they were shot in the chest 6 times with a Model 1911 pistol with a supressor on it, from a distance of about 8 feet.

As an example, my dad shot a black bear from about 10 feet with his 1911, hitting it just behind the shoulder with one shot of a standard commercial load. There was a small entrance hole and a huge hole on the far side of the bear. The bear died almost immediately.

NOTE: The bear was shirtless and the gun did not have a silencer on it. Dad was just settling down to wait for the bear and had not loaded the rifle yet ... hence the use of the pistol.

Your victim would have 1 to 6 entrance wounds in the front and his back would be full of gaping exit wounds. He would probably die within moments from massive blood loss. Exact position of the wounds would depend on how he fell after the fiorst one, and whether the shooter followed him as he fell.

wilhem spihntingle · Jan 28, 2011

The victim was restrained in a chair (arms and legs) which was bolted to the floor of the shed. I planned on having the MC who witnessed the shooting, provide these details in another scene as he recaps it in his mind

GregS · Jan 29, 2011

wilhem spihntingle said:
Greg- Thanks for the advice. I'll change the dripping to something better. If I change it to he was hit in the chest, would that make him die faster and would the blood flow be different, say if one hit him in the heart?

Yes, chest would likely change the scenario dramatically. That could kill him near instantly (matter of quick minutes), depending on what it hit. It could also still drag out for a while, depending on what you want.

At the end of the day, though, don't get too tied up in us gun nuts. Most people won't know anyways. I only pointed out the long, slow death because it would be extreme.

wilhem spihntingle · Jan 30, 2011

GregS said:
Yes, chest would likely change the scenario dramatically. That could kill him near instantly (matter of quick minutes), depending on what it hit. It could also still drag out for a while, depending on what you want.

At the end of the day, though, don't get too tied up in us gun nuts. Most people won't know anyways. I only pointed out the long, slow death because it would be extreme.

Thanks Greg. I'm def trying to stay away from getting to much into specifics, but want some legitimacy at the same time. I don't play around in the police procedural arena, because I don't know squat about that stuff either.

Question on Model 1911 & Walther P22 damage inflicted

wilhem spihntingle

Drachen Jager

Professor of applied misanthropy

wilhem spihntingle

Drachen Jager

Professor of applied misanthropy

Nivarion

Brony level >9000

jmarkbyrnes

Nobody and Nothin'

GregS

wilhem spihntingle

jeseymour

wilhem spihntingle

GeorgeK

ever seeking

wilhem spihntingle

GregS

wilhem spihntingle

Summonere

Stanmiller

wilhem spihntingle

jclarkdawe

Feeling lucky, Query?

Tsu Dho Nimh

wilhem spihntingle

GregS

wilhem spihntingle