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Eveningsdawn
10-09-2005, 10:37 PM
Me, again.


If someone is fully mute, can they still make a hissing noise? Or voice those parts of a letter sound that are not made in the throat (if they exist)?


Definite responses greatly appreciated.

RubyRoo
10-09-2005, 10:45 PM
OK I know that this depends why they are mute ie is it a physical or emotion cause?

Eveningsdawn
10-09-2005, 11:11 PM
Purely physical. She has no deep dark secrets.

RubyRoo
10-10-2005, 12:12 AM
Is there something wrong with, say, her tongue or vocal chords?...If she has a problem with her tongue she could be understood faguely and yes and no is entirely possible to be produced as are grunts and hisses. Anyother causes I'm unsure of.

Eveningsdawn
10-10-2005, 05:46 AM
I believe its her vocal cords, not her tongue.

Rabe
10-10-2005, 10:09 AM
Yes, hissing could happen.

Hissing isn't a sound produced so much by the vocal cords, in all cases, but can also happen by air being blown through clenched teeth. Much like a sigh, or whistling, do not involve the vocal cords, but rather forcing air through the mouth.

As for grunting, I'm pretty sure that Helen Keller did a lot of grunting. I know many deaf people that do grunt, hiss and make other sorts of vocalizations. Of course, those are deaf people. I'm not sure I've ever met an actual mute person.

Hope that helps.

Rabe...

Shwebb
10-10-2005, 03:16 PM
Actually, Helen Keller was taught to speak--and gave lectures from time to time. Her problem wasn't lack of vocal cords, it was inability to hear.

Rabe
10-10-2005, 09:39 PM
Actually, Helen Keller was taught to speak--and gave lectures from time to time. Her problem wasn't lack of vocal cords, it was inability to hear.

Of course you're right. She was blind and deaf, not mute. My mistake.

Shwebb
10-10-2005, 11:31 PM
I'd have thought the same thing, if I hadn't known beforehand. I've just been a big biography freak since I was in second grade!:)

Eveningsdawn
10-11-2005, 06:17 AM
Perfect. Now she can be well-adjusted and not a sad little recluse.

Rabe
10-11-2005, 11:48 AM
Perfect. Now she can be well-adjusted and not a sad little recluse.

Oh, THAT'S why your asking. I think that's a whole different question.

As to how 'well-adjusted' she can be, that's a whole different story. Here's the question, is she in a community where she has support of others like herself? Those who may be Deaf or mute as well?

My brother is hearing impaired and has a very thick speech impediment because of it. We grew up in a town that didn't have much of a Deaf/mute community at the time so he got stuck into 'special ed' classes with kids who had developmental, behavioral and other real problems. It didn't help him at all. Add to the mix a midwestern father who was dead set that his child would be 'normal' and refused to allow him the use of sign language, and you have a guy who's not at *all* well adjusted.

A lot of it isn't his problem. People hear him talk and automatically assume he's retarded. People I've known for years still slip up and call him my 'retarded brother'. That's not the problem at all, it's because he's hearing impaired. Then you have the frustration he feels from trying to make himself understood to a world at large that usually disregards his attempts and makes no attempts on their own to understand him and you got a guy with a lot of built-in frustration. Even when he does use sign language (very rarely - and because of the secretive way he was taught, he has problems when hearing folk, like myself, use sign language) people who don't know sign language don't even make the attempt to try to deal with him effectively, because it's taking away their precious time and making them think beyond themselves.

So, while most people are going to look at a story wherein a mute child has a loving home life and *everyone* just thinks that he/she is just so darling, and isn't it precious the way they learned to write so early in life? But there's a large part of the population who are going to know different from their own dealings with Deaf/mute family members who are going to cry foul on it. So there's still a lot more to think about with a well-adjusted person than if they can grunt or not.

Sorry for getting on the soapbox about it though. I certainly hope that you feel free to contact me if you have further questions. I'll try to answer to the best of my experience. Or if you keep posting your questions here.

(BTW...when a Deaf/mute child is raised in a community where there are others in their particular subculture, they do seem to grow up more well-adjusted socially. However that doesn't mean the end of problems for them. One perk? In our town, my brother was recently summoned for jury duty. He had two ways to get out of the jury pool right away. His impairment would provide too much of a hardship on the court to accommodate AND I was on the witness list! He was actually happy that he had a 'normal' excuse for getting out of it for a change!)

Rabe...

September skies
10-12-2005, 03:20 AM
I've known mute people who are mute because they are either totally deaf (from birth) and one from a vocal cord injury. Both could make some kind of hissing/grunting sound. Both attended the Fremont School for the Deaf.
(I interviewed them for a story I once wrote)

Rabe
10-13-2005, 08:38 AM
I've known mute people who are mute because they are either totally deaf (from birth) and one from a vocal cord injury. Both could make some kind of hissing/grunting sound. Both attended the Fremont School for the Deaf.
(I interviewed them for a story I once wrote)


I'm not sure the first one would qualify as a 'mute', technically, because they have the capability of speech, just not the capacity to learn the language. But that's splitting hairs. I'll go slap my wrist in a moment! ;)

Is that interview still around somewhere? I'd love to try to access it and send it to some Deaf friends of mine, one of whom I believe went to the Fremont school.

Rabe...

reph
10-13-2005, 09:43 AM
I'm not sure the first one [a person deaf from birth] would qualify as a 'mute', technically, because they have the capability of speech, just not the capacity to learn the language.
Helen Keller went deaf as a toddler and learned to speak. She must have had the capacity to learn the language, seeing that she did learn it.

There's also elective mutism: not speaking despite being able to.

Alec
10-13-2005, 06:51 PM
The general rule is, if someone's deaf/mute, they will make any sound/noise that their condition permits to communicate. 'Sad, little reclusive' is not very common since most deaf/mute are very outgoing, extrovert people (I find they're a lot of fun to be around exactly for that reason). Of course, there are exceptions depending on how they grew up, who with, etc. But they will always seek out their own (other deaf/mute, or at least hearing who know ASL) and even attempt to integrate into any hearing/speaking society as much as they can.

/Alec

Eveningsdawn
10-14-2005, 03:14 AM
It strikes me that I should tell you why I'm asking if my girl, Sphinx, can hiss. She's a naga, one of the snake people, whose own language is about 1/2 hissed sounds, so she can speak, at least partly, in her own community. She also 'speaks' ASL. However, she's getting older, and will be off from her kin and to college soon - she'll be more among humans, who don't know her, and many of whom don't know ASL.
So, therein lies the story (there's more - the snake part twines in too, but that's not pertinent at the moment).

I have to go write my Western Civ. paper now. Thanks for all the help so far!

Rabe
10-14-2005, 06:02 AM
Helen Keller went deaf as a toddler and learned to speak. She must have had the capacity to learn the language, seeing that she did learn it.

There's also elective mutism: not speaking despite being able to.

My ASL teacher also went deaf as a toddler and is able to speak, though not with great enunciation. As well as Marlee Matlin (the actress who has sometimes been derided by the Deaf community because she chooses to use speech in some occassions rather than pure Sign. It was very effective on "Desperate Housewives" wherein she was able to utter the final epitath to Felicity Huffman's character in speech rather than Sign.)

But there's the rub isn't? Even though most people don't think so, language is learned from the moment we're exposed to it. There is a type of memory wherein we 'recall' the words but maybe not the context. Once we start to place the context is when we start to really connect with language. So if, as an infant, I kept hearing about a 'dog' and I finally learned what a dog was, and I recall or am able to learn how to shape the 'sound' of 'dog' (much like I would have learned to shape the 'sign' for dog) then yes, I would be able to learn to speak. Being deaf doesn't automatically mean a person isn't able to learn to speak.

However, an infant that is unable to distinguish the 'shape' of sounds from birth will never have that ability. They may be able to learn to speak through other ways, such as learning to mimic the vibrations of words by feeling another person's throat and imitating that, but their successes can only come from the physical clues of those they are trying to learn from.

My brother, for example, isn't Deaf but hearing impaired. He does speak, primarily, as his mode of communication. I'm one of a handful of peopel that he'll actually use ASL with and even when he does use ASL, it's grudging. But even though he was able to 'hear' some sounds from birth, I've heard more Deaf people that have better enunciation or diction than him. It's a matter of what you are capable to doing. Those born deaf usually do not have the capacity to learn to 'shape' the sounds.

Although, I'm also a huge believer in teaching the limited branch off of 'ASL' to babies in order to get them to communicate more effectively as children. I think it reduces a lot of misunderstanding and ineffective frustration if they're able to tell you that they want something to drink rather than fussing until you finally figure out the clues.

So, wherein I'm refering to the 'capacity' to learn vocal language, I'm not refering to any inability to do so, but rather the ability to be able to learn to 'shape' the sound to become understood by others. It's not unlike some autistic children who create their own forms of language among each other, if they're exposed to each other long enough, that suffices as communication. We wouldn't understand it, but they do. If we were to immerse ourselve into their world, we'd eventually come to understand what they are communicating if not ever really be fluent, because we are not operating at their capacity. (and no, that's not a slam against autistic children, many of whom are often highly intelligent people.)

Rabe...

Rabe
10-14-2005, 06:06 AM
It strikes me that I should tell you why I'm asking if my girl, Sphinx, can hiss. She's a naga, one of the snake people, whose own language is about 1/2 hissed sounds, so she can speak, at least partly, in her own community. She also 'speaks' ASL. However, she's getting older, and will be off from her kin and to college soon - she'll be more among humans, who don't know her, and many of whom don't know ASL.
So, therein lies the story (there's more - the snake part twines in too, but that's not pertinent at the moment).

I have to go write my Western Civ. paper now. Thanks for all the help so far!

Eveningsdawn:

That sounds like an intriguing story and an unique idea that I'm not sure I'd have ever thought of!

Best of luck with the story and I'm seeing more what you're trying to get at. I guess the answer comes down to why she's mute. If she has vocal cord damage, that may make it difficult to learn the native languages of her naga kind, but if it's just that she was born with more of the snake apparatus for communication rather than human, then it makes perfect sense.

Again, good luck with the story. And the western civ paper as well! ;)

Rabe...

Eveningsdawn
10-15-2005, 06:26 AM
If she has vocal cord damage, that may make it difficult to learn the native languages of her naga kind, but if it's just that she was born with more of the snake apparatus for communication rather than human, then it makes perfect sense.

That latter idea - about the snake apparatus - is not one I'd thought of. Because that would fit with what I'd been considering; that the muteness runs in her family, primarily on her mother's side. And that would tell me why - they're throwbacks to the time when the breed was more snakish than human.


You people are awesome.