weapons question - deer hunting

Modern black powder rifles function pretty much identically to a brass-case rifle except that they only come in single-shot. There is a bigger puff of smoke. Recoil is generally greater and velocities are lower but it's not a huge difference within 200-300 yards.

The following article has some details.

http://hunting.about.com/od/blackpowder/a/aa020599.htm

jeseymour said:

I'm working on a short story involving an MC who can't own his weapon of choice (which would have been a Remington 700) due to felony convictions. He can own black powder weapons.

No, he can't. Starting point is RSA 159:3

159:3 Convicted Felons. –
I. A person is guilty of a class B felony if he:
(a) Owns or has in his possession or under his control, a pistol, revolver, or other firearm, or slungshot, metallic knuckles, billies, stiletto, switchblade knife, sword cane, pistol cane, blackjack, dagger, dirk-knife, or other deadly weapon as defined in RSA 625:11, V; and
(b) Has been convicted in either a state or federal court in this or any other state, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or any territory or possession of the United States of:
(1) A felony against the person or property of another; or
(2) A felony under RSA 318-B; or
(3) A felony violation of the laws of any other state, the District of Columbia, the United States, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico or any territory or possession of the United States relating to controlled drugs as defined in RSA 318-B.
I-a. A person is guilty of a class B felony if such person completes and signs an application for purchase of a firearm and the person is a convicted felon under the provisions of paragraph I.
II. The state shall confiscate to the use of the state the weapon or weapons of persons convicted under this section.
III. It is an affirmative defense to a charge under this section that a felony of which a defendant has been convicted in another jurisdiction would not have constituted a felony in the state of New Hampshire at the time such felony was committed.

RSA 625:11 defines a dangerous weapon as:

625:11 General Definitions. – The following definitions apply to this code.
V. "Deadly weapon'' means any firearm, knife or other substance or thing which, in the manner it is used, intended to be used, or threatened to be used, is known to be capable of producing death or serious bodily injury.

He can't even use a bow, as one of my clients found out to his dismay.

How different is it to use a black powder rifle as opposed to a regular rifle? What would he find different, what would he find similar? Is black powder one shot at a time? How accurate? How close does he need to get? He will be guiding another guy, a green newbie to hunting, and my MC will need to teach him a bit about his rifle (newbie brings his own, can anybody recommend a rifle that a gun shop would sell a city slicker in NYC who is planning a deer hunting trip?) Does he need a permit to buy a rifle in NY? Would said newbie be more likely to bring a shotgun? Story is set in New Hampshire, I'm pretty sure we can use either rifles or shotguns for deer hunting (probably handguns as well. )

The following are the deer seasons:

General Deer Season Dates for 2010:

• Archery: Sept. 15 - Dec. 15, 2010 ( NOTE: Legally antlered bucks only from Sept. 15-30; season closes on Dec. 8 in WMU A)
• Muzzleloader: Oct. 30 - Nov. 9, 2010 Statewide
• Firearms: Nov. 10 - Dec. 5, 2010 (closes November 28 in WMU A)

I believe muzzleloaders are black powder.

MC is pretty good with guns, having been a Marine Sniper a long, long time ago. If anybody has any hunting tips to offer I'd love to hear those too. Thanks in advance!

Click to expand...

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

Even if it didn't meet the definition of firearm, it is a dangerous weapon, and that's what those statutes are designed to deal with. I know of one case where a prosecutor was able to prove that the baseball bat in the defendant's car was a dangerous weapon. Defendant didn't play baseball, stated to police that the bat was to insure his safety (while doing drug deals), and had nobody he could blame for having the bat other than himself. I don't remember the state this happened in, but the court determined that in that situation, the bat was a dangerous weapon, and subject to enhanced sentencing.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

Would it work for your story if your MC's convictions were overturned, after he'd served so much time? He would possibly still have the onerous of being an ex-con; so many of the story details you probably already have would still work.

Just throwing out an idea.

jeseymour said:

Is this getting too obscure for everyone? We can take it to email if it is.

Click to expand...

Not for me. I enjoy learning new things; I might have the same types of questions some time in the future. A good solid discussion of particulars should always be welcomed at AW.

You just have to be careful with firearms questions here; people can nitpick a simple question to death. A thread asking what kind of handgun a MC might carry can go on for three or four pages (I've chipped in a few times myself).

By the way, if you need any information on being a sniper, you can probably ask storygirl. Her husband is an Army sniper, currently serving in Afghanistan. You'll notice I don't piss off storygirl very often. ;-)

In Montana and Oregon, the pertinent regulations are posted where you purchase hunting licenses.

State citizens released with felony convictions may not possess or hunt with firearms. As said, even traditional muzzle loaders are definitely firearms.

More obscure details: Many cartridge rifles shoot black powder back then and right now. For instance, although most modern store-bought cartridges are factory loaded with smokeless powder, the designation .30-30 means thirty calibers loaded with thirty grains of black powder. Similar is true of the .25-35, .32-20, .45-70, etc. Black powder doesn't necessarily mean muzzle loader.

However, in both Montana and Oregon, once post-sentencing supervision is complete, those with felony records may hunt with bows and arrows.

You might check your local archery dealer for laws in your area.

My wife and I were somewhat talking about this today. I wear a Leatherman tool on my belt most of the time which I use constantly. (For those who don't know, a Leatherman is a combination tool sort of like a Swiss army knife.) I've been going into the hospital a lot recently visiting people and they have a big sign saying "No Weapons."

It's clear that at some level a Leatherman is a weapon. Among the other attachments, it includes a four-inch knife blade. (Which I used three days ago to cut a piece of hose and avoided having to go hunt for a knife, which is why you carry something like this.) I'd definitely not be allowed to wear it on a plane or into a courtroom. But is this the intent of a hospital in posting a sign saying "No Weapons." Especially when you consider that a fair amount of people who work with tools will stick screwdrivers in their pockets or other tools that are arguably weapons.

There is probably some level of common sense in all of this. For example, a convicted felon who has a job as an electrician, who carries a Leatherman for his job, would seem reasonable. But I can see a police officer and judge disagreeing.

jeseymour said:

So, what about a tire iron? In a car or as an auto mechanic, fine. Bringing it into your neighborhood bar, probably not so much. Can he still be around weapons, as in being a hunting guide? Yes, he can be around weapons. He just can't "possess" them. Hunting guide would present some issues, but is doable. Cause if he can't, that's going to make life a lot harder. He doesn't have to do this for a living, but I saw it as a way for him to be self-employed and make his own hours. He doesn't do well with authority in general, and wouldn't do well working for someone else. I do have more going on here than just the short story, obviously. If he touches a rifle, to show someone how to hold it, or load it, is that a violation? Possibly, but probably not. He wouldn't be in control of the rifle in that situation. But this would be a judgment call. Probably could not hold the rifle by himself. What is meant by possession? Possession is usually meant to connote control, but can get somewhat esoteric. Using common sense is probably the best way to go at this. Ownership? Ownership is definitely possession, but you can possess something you don't own. Is this getting too obscure for everyone? We can take it to email if it is.

Thanks Jim! Alleycat, thanks for the thought, but I don't want to make his life that easy. It's pretty complicated, involving convictions for escapes. I do want him to be a felon.

Thanks for the info on the black powder, Drachen.

Click to expand...

There's a hunter I know, convicted of a felony, who goes hunting with a buddy. The buddy has the license, and carries the gun until they get into the woods. Local cops know all about it, and ignore it. Hunter is just a good guy who made a stupid decision when he was younger.

You've got two separate questions here. One is what is technically violations. And the second is whether anyone is going to care. Going back to the Leatherman, carrying it on my belt in its pouch is probably not going to be a concern to the hospital. Opening the knife blade and waving it around in the hospital, on the other hand, would probably result in me meeting a lot of security guys.

A hunting guide, who while out in the woods, shows someone how to hold a gun, with no one else around, probably isn't going to get into trouble. Same hunting guide, doing the same thing, but in front of the police station, is going to cause problems and probably get in trouble.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

Adding a little to what Jim posted, a lot of times you have some flexibility in a story. You can play it either way. For example, if a convicted felon went hunting with a shotgun here in a rural county of Tennessee, probably no one is going to care (he's probably the sheriff's second cousin anyway) unless he's already considered a problem by the police. If he carried a handgun into a bar, that would be a different story.

Is it necessary for the story that he handle guns? If not, if you just want him to have a manly outdoor job where he can be his own boss, why not make him a fishing guide? Okay, maybe he needs something to club the tougher fish, and a knife to clean them, but if he works in an area where sports fishing is catch-and-release he wouldn't even need that. A pair of pliers to remove the hooks?

The vast majority of the time, "can't own a firearm" does not mean "will get in trouble for being around one."

And, for the record, plenty of guides in "safe" areas (no bears, no pigs) don't carry rifles/bows for a number of reasons. The most common being that they are not allowed more tags (kills) than anyone else, and so they save theirs for private times in prime spots. I have also known old guides who didn't really care to hunt anymore and so didn't get licenses for themselves (and in most places, no license equals no gun).

Could be .30-06--it is still one of the best rounds on the market (and what I used the most)--but it's expensive and a bit heavy, so most people have switched to smaller, lighter, faster calibers. Assuming the client's been around guns before, they'd probably be more likely to set him up with a .308 or 7mm. If he's new to shooting high-powered rifles or big game, they'd go with a .243 Win., which is a very light load comparatively--so it has less recoil and is a lot less intimidating to shoot, but is still fine for taking deer.

But all that's assuming you want a bolt action rifle. If you do, read no further. If you are looking for more options, depending on where the story goes and how your hero eventually uses the gun, you could also go with:

A lever-action .30-30 (arguably among the most common deer hunting rifle in the US)
A Ruger Mini-14 in .223 or 7.62x39mm (semi-automatic, M-14 style rifle)
A M1A (civilian M-14) in .308
An AR-style (m-16) .223 or 6.8mm spc
A SKS or AK-style (both, effectively, AK-47-type things) 7.62x39mm
A break-open (break-action) rifle in any of the afore mentioned calibers.

It's worth noting that using a .223 for deer can be a bit sketchy. Most places allow it, but it requires good shooting.

And none of that's getting funky with new/off-sized calibers...which you could do as well.

I'll just agree with GregS's first paragraph. Any of those would work fine. Just pick one. No one can argue with your original choice of a .30-06 for deer hunting.

Or, if you do happen to go with a lever-action 30-30, let me know and I can give you any particulars. I just happen to have one in the back closet. I used to have a .243 as well, but sold it. The reason some people like the old lever-action 30-30 is it's usually a shorter gun, which is good in areas of heavy brush. I'm just guessing, but I suspect they're not as commonly sold in NYC.

jeseymour said:

If I may re-ask part of the original question - if my hunting guide's client goes into a sporting goods store in New York and asks for a deer rifle, what caliber are they going to give him? 30-06? I'm picturing a camo-pattern Remington 700 in 30-06 myself, but not being a hunter, I have no clue. I suppose it's not that important, but my MC is interested in that sort of thing.

Click to expand...

If your guy is a former Marine sniper, he will definitely gravitate to the Rem M700 as the design is the basis for the USMC M40A sniper rifle, caliber 7.62x51 NATO, which is the .308 in civilian-speak.

If your guy is advising another guy, he'll recommend the M700 in .308 for the same reason.

Stan

I happened to be in a room full of deer and elk hunters tonight, and as we were geeking on hardware, I thought of this question and posed it to them. The far-and-away favorite recommendation was .270 Win.

A .270 would be fine. It's more popular in the west than in the east (or that's the way it used to be). A former sniper would probably like a .270 however.

Again, it doesn't really matter as long as it's a reasonable choice.

Stanmiller said:

If your guy is a former Marine sniper, he will definitely gravitate to the Rem M700 as the design is the basis for the USMC M40A sniper rifle, caliber 7.62x51 NATO, which is the .308 in civilian-speak.

If your guy is advising another guy, he'll recommend the M700 in .308 for the same reason.

Stan

Click to expand...

Agreed. I'm in NY and have used a .270 and .308, as well as a 12 gauge.

If you still go with a muzzle loader, then accuracy is lower -- in general -- than with modern weapon designs and muzzle velocity is lower (although there are some newer -modernized muzzle loaders that are designed for better accuracy). So, you'll need to be closer to the animal to get a good kill shot. Muzzle loaders have often have less or no rifling in the barrel so the shot comes out without much spin. This basically leads to the round being a "knuckleball" if your familiar with baseball. It won't fly true, it will bounce around a lot. This means that no matter how good of a shot your guy is, he'll still have difficulty hitting his precise target. He'll hit the animal if he's close enough, but the shot probably won't end up where he intends because once it leaves the barrel, he's go no control over it.

My experience with muzzle loaders is that caliber to caliber, black powder has a heck of a lot less kick than a modern weapon of the same caliber would. I've shot .50 caliber muzzle loader rifles and it's about like shooting a 30-30, but with a less sharp punch.