how did you find your beta readers?

unruley700 · Jan 12, 2011

I've got somewhat of a problem. I've got two beta readers who are awesome people and they love my story. That's the problems. Other than grammatical errors and structure issues, they never have much to say except "I couldn't put it down."

It's like I found the two nicest people in the world to read my book.

Unfortunately, that's not what I need. I need a book dominatrix, someone to tell me straight up if my writing is trash, certain parts are trash, what needs to come out and what needs to go in.

I'm sure most of you have at least one beta who is like this. Where did you find your readers? I checked out the beta forum but it looks pretty sparse in there.

How many betas should I have, anyway? five? ten?

Tasmin21 · Jan 12, 2011

First off, I want to hug you for the phrase "book dominatrix". That was awesome.

I have about ten betas, but they all read the book at different stages in its life, to give me fresh eyes every time. Some of them read every chapter as I finish it. Some of them read it after I've had a couple of revision passes under my belt. Some of them read it after the 2nd batch have had their say and I make those changes.

Some of them read it in the space of a few hours, at the last possible minute, because I post here going "ZOMG, this sucks and I don't know how to fix it, waaaaaaaah!"

I'd recommend posting in the beta forum anyway. In my experience, the best betas are either avid readers or avid writers, and we have plenty of those here.

hillaryjacques · Jan 12, 2011

I found an excellent beta in the beta forum, after trying out two or three that didn't quite work for various reasons (they didn't care for my style, didn't respond, or we mutually parted ways). She's a "big picture" reader, meaning she'll talk about themes that work/don't work or slow spots in the book. I also have a couple of closer readers, who will focus on dialogue and/or conflict in specific scenes, and those are great, too. They're all very nice, which seems almost unfair since I am not kind when I beta for others.

Finding compatible betas is a bit like dating. Try to balance the relationship, offering to read/critique for them as well. If they're not engaged, don't pressure them. Let them go and try again. Keep trying until you find a few matches. Don't worry if it takes a few months to find good beta matches. It's worth it.

sunandshadow · Jan 12, 2011

*wish I could figure out how to find a compatible co-writer* :Huh:

CheG · Jan 12, 2011

I am the book dominatrix. I have only done two betas on this site but I was in a critique group once upon a time. But I am pretty hardcore, I think. Which is why I don't often volunteer for more. I sweat blood I will piss them off and they will get me banned from AW or something.

I don't know about finding betas though. I have one friend with a very discerning editing skills who notices ALL passive writing and I intend to send him my manuscript after I finish and edit. And that's it! I have one potential person... If you find out how to find more TELL ME.

Sunandshadow- OMG! Me too! co-writer would be awesome!!!

Filigree · Jan 12, 2011

I have three beta readers. One I found here on AW, who is lethally-good at line by line dissections. The second is a local friend who is an avid reader and brutal reviewer of sf&f, so she calls me on continuity and big picture mistakes. The last is an old friend from fanfiction days, who looks at characterization and relationships. Between the three of them, they may have saved my current mms.

I'm not saying 'never', but I'm unlikely to co-write any fiction again. I had bad experiences with a past attempt: a lack of coherent plotting on my part, a tendency toward self-sabotage and empty wish-fulfillment from my colleague, and end goals for the story that were different for each writer. Plus, we made the mistake of trying to merge our two 'universes', so when the friendship broke up I had to do a lot of changes. Down to abandoning entire plots.

Co-writing can work for people, as long as all the writers involved are professional about it. We were not ready to publish by ourselves, and it showed.

Filigree

unruley700 · Jan 12, 2011

Thanks everyone, think I'll give the beta forum a shot.

sunandshadow · Jan 12, 2011

Filigree said:
end goals for the story that were different for each writer

This has been the part I've had the most trouble with. Well, that and finding someone who wants to write the same combination of genres, but I think it's really the same problem. I write science fiction or fantasy erotic romance.

People who are coming from a sff or erotica background tend to not grasp the fact that romance MUST have a happy ending and not do irreparable damage on the way there.

People who are coming from an erotica or romance background tend not to have a clue how to do quality worldbuilding or why it's important/desirable to create an original world for a story to take place in.

People who are coming from a sff or sweet romance background tend to not be at all interested in a project labeled erotic, and people who don't have experience writing erotica tend to be afraid of what readers will think of them and resist doing anything non-vanilla. Which, what's the point of doing sff if you want vanilla? Speculative fiction by definition is about writing about things that aren't in the everyday boring world.

Then on top of that you have the usual gender problem with erotica - I'd have great difficulty working with a straight male or lesbian female writer because as a straight female writer I want to see male characters eroticized, I'm not really interested in female ones.

I can totally see finding a co-writer as being like a dating process, but, like my real dating life, it seems like there aren't any likely candidates to try dating. :/

unruley700 · Jan 12, 2011

sunandshadow said:
I can totally see finding a co-writer as being like a dating process, but, like my real dating life, it seems like there aren't any likely candidates to try dating. :/

Awww...honey, you just haven't found the right co-writer yet

lol. Sorry, I had to.

JRVogt · Jan 12, 2011

I've found beta readers through a variety of ways, but mostly online. I take occasional part in the Online Writers Workshop, and the people I turn to now for manuscript feedback are ones I interacted with through there over about a year's time. It let me get used not only to their feedback style, but also their own writing. The handful that I continue to interact with, I know what they look for. I know what they're good at spotting--but I also know what they might overlook or just not get. That helps me absorb their suggestions and advice with a more balanced perspective.

Wayne K · Jan 12, 2011

I have close to 30 beta readers. I started off beta reading for others.

I had no idea what I was doing at first, and made my shortcomings clear. I told them that I wanted to practice beta reading to be helpful to others

I learned a lot, and have made friends with people I normally wouldn't meet

Beta reading makes for strange bedfellows

sunandshadow · Jan 12, 2011

unruley700 said:
Awww...honey, you just haven't found the right co-writer yet

lol. Sorry, I had to.

I see the humor - it's one of those things that's funny because it's true.

MJNL · Jan 12, 2011

I'm lucky enough to have brutally honest family members. Two of them beta my stories on a regular basis, and it's great to have someone there who can physically look you in the eye, point to the page, and say "This doesn't make sense." They are both widely read in the genre, and I know how their thinking processes work, so it's easier than working with a stranger.

But, if you don't have people in your life who can do that-- who think the quality of the story comes before sparing your feelings-- then perhaps online is the way to go.

I've gotten short story critiques at online places like critters, but the problem with that kind of criticism is the lack of back and forth, and the anonymity (you don’t know if the opinion is coming from a knowledgeable source, so you have to take it for what it is. I once had someone refer to a character as a ‘he’ throughout an entire critique when it was clearly stated the character was female. And her femaleness was a big part of the story. The critiquer ripped the story a new one based on their miss-read, ie. They kept saying things like , “A guy would never do this.” Pretty much scrapped my confidence in the process. If you can’t pick up on a repeated pronoun, you’ve got no business trying to give an in-depth review). I think AW would be a good place to start looking for a beta, because at least you can have a conversation and figure out why this or that is a problem, versus it just is.

unruley700 · Jan 12, 2011

sunandshadow said:
I see the humor - it's one of those things that's funny because it's true.

I think it's funny because you're not the only one with a less than stellar dating life. :e2drown:

MJNL said:
I've gotten short story critiques at online places like critters, but the problem with that kind of criticism is the lack of back and forth, and the anonymity (you don’t know if the opinion is coming from a knowledgeable source, so you have to take it for what it is. I once had someone refer to a character as a ‘he’ throughout an entire critique when it was clearly stated the character was female. And her femaleness was a big part of the story. The critiquer ripped the story a new one based on their miss-read, ie. They kept saying things like , “A guy would never do this.” Pretty much scrapped my confidence in the process. If you can’t pick up on a repeated pronoun, you’ve got no business trying to give an in-depth review). I think AW would be a good place to start looking for a beta, because at least you can have a conversation and figure out why this or that is a problem, versus it just is.

That's the kind of shady person I def don't need looking at my work. Only 30k people live in my town, so it's hard to find people who both have an interest in fantasy and have the ability to critique my work well. I started a thread in the beta reader forum here. We'll see how it goes

Jess Haines · Jan 12, 2011

I've had hit-and-miss betas. Now I'm stuck with a rock solid bunch I found through trial and error. One of them is from right here on AW.

Have you tried SYW first? Maybe you'll find someone who would be interested in a long-term beta relationship there. That was how I found my AW beta partner.

bettielee · Jan 12, 2011

After you've been around for awhile, you might get offers. I only had to ask one or two people to beta, the rest offered. Hit someone up in the Cantina thread! We're a helpful bunch!

Mr Flibble · Jan 12, 2011

IIRC I said 'Hey, Bettie, wanna read some smut?'

First betas I got through the beta forum, one stayed with me for the series. Other projects I've had two betas, either people I've asked here or people from my writers' group (who also post here anyway).

I beta here regularly for people who ask (I'm generally fairly well booked, so I don't go looking in the beta forum usually)

Find someone whose posts you like, who seems like they might be a fit both personality wise and the genre they read/write. PM them. They can only say no.

Kishi_Keahi · Feb 11, 2011

If you'd like I'm attempting to start a writers' support group on here. It's just going to be some place where people can share their work (all or pieces of it as they feel free), get feedback, get help on plot work/character building. Basically it's a group of writing buddies working together to help each other through the rough patches.

If you're (or anyone else) is interested, please feel free to PM me. This will hopefully up and running this weekend.

heretic_scribe · Feb 11, 2011

I tried to find people who I knew, but didn't know well enough that they'd lose sleep over hurting my feelings. I also tried to find other writers who knew the value of constructive criticism. I tried to find folks in different age groups and demographics, and especially people who didn't even like the genre I was writing. I ended up with about 2 dozen, and the feedback was excellent for the most part.

Canotila · Feb 11, 2011

Aside from posting in SYW, I only have one beta and she was my college roommate. Well, she's really more of an alpha reader, and she writes too so we love swapping. We try to sit up and write a 500-1000 word scene every night and then swap/critique each other's work, bounce ideas off each other, etc. It's been really helpful keeping active, like having a workout buddy.

Eventually I'll probably look for another beta who'd be willing to go through some larger blocks and look for pacing, story, etc. but the story isn't there yet.

Fenika · Feb 12, 2011

Once you find them, keep them chained. Then you don't have to keep looking for your beta readers.

Providing feed and water is important though.

Miriel · Feb 12, 2011

Okay, I haven't sent a novel through Critters.org, but I do use it for short stories all the time and find it highly useful. I usually get 15-20 critiques on a story. Just like with any critiques, there are some that are more helpful than others...but most of them are very helpful (and with such a volume of critiques, I feel like the story's very well picked-over; some people do line-by-line, others do big pictures, etc.). I also enjoy critiquing others' shorts on a regular basis. I definitely think it's worth trying out, if you haven't -- I love that site.

Satchan · Feb 12, 2011

I've gotten lucky in the beta readers department. I have a friend who's got a very good eye for stories and is perfectly capable of being brutally honest when she needs to be. (It was a little depressing to hear that my NaNo project last year ended up with absolutely no plot points until the end, but it was totally true. XD) We're also co-writing a bunch of things, so I guess I've got 2 for 1 there.

The other two people I've flung things at (another friend and my boyfriend) aren't quite as discerning, but they're good for encouragement and pointing out plot inconsistencies. Also for badgering me to add more description.

I haven't tried the beta forum yet (haven't been here long enough), but it seems like it'd be pretty helpful. That way you have people who aren't worried about hurting your feelings.

And hey, the fact that there are people who love your story is a good sign in my opinion!

elfletcherauthor · Feb 21, 2011

co-writer

sunandshadow said:
This has been the part I've had the most trouble with. Well, that and finding someone who wants to write the same combination of genres, but I think it's really the same problem. I write science fiction or fantasy erotic romance.

People who are coming from a sff or erotica background tend to not grasp the fact that romance MUST have a happy ending and not do irreparable damage on the way there.

People who are coming from an erotica or romance background tend not to have a clue how to do quality worldbuilding or why it's important/desirable to create an original world for a story to take place in.

People who are coming from a sff or sweet romance background tend to not be at all interested in a project labeled erotic, and people who don't have experience writing erotica tend to be afraid of what readers will think of them and resist doing anything non-vanilla. Which, what's the point of doing sff if you want vanilla? Speculative fiction by definition is about writing about things that aren't in the everyday boring world.

Then on top of that you have the usual gender problem with erotica - I'd have great difficulty working with a straight male or lesbian female writer because as a straight female writer I want to see male characters eroticized, I'm not really interested in female ones.

I can totally see finding a co-writer as being like a dating process, but, like my real dating life, it seems like there aren't any likely candidates to try dating. :/

would love to give book dating atry email me at [email protected] we'll talk

Mollfie · Feb 21, 2011

Outside of those on my MA course I ask friends who are also writers to read through my work. We went to Uni together and a few are the "it's really good" type readers but two are nitpicky and will really tear stuff apart. So it's a nice balance really.

I would suggest looking to see if there's any writers groups near you? You might find some very helpful people that way. Or ask more friends, family members etc and you could try giving them a list of specific things you want them to look at and give you feedback on?

how did you find your beta readers?

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