What a 4 year degree in creative writing is teaching me.

Bartholomew · Jan 10, 2011

My creative writing courses, and the English classes around them puffing out my degree, have been forcing some odd ideas onto me about writing, and how it works on the publishing end. The department at my university is extremely prejudiced against some types of fiction—they divide everything up into “Genre” and “Literary,” but they can’t adequately define either term for me. Or if they can, they’ve so far refused. I picked up on this odd prejudice almost immediately, but I don’t mind. Different perspectives make the world go round, and nothing they say will ever convince me that fantasy and horror are not worth writing.
But some of the other ideas in the classes are new, outlandish, or—to my knowledge—wrong. I’d like to bounce some of these off of the AW community.

1) An MFA in creative writing will make my query letters more attractive.

This one is probably true, but I kind of get the feeling that it’s just as often not true.

2) Literary agents scout MFA programs for new clients.

I had never heard this before. If it is true, it makes an MFA program very attractive.

3) Literary agents represent short stories.

This is about where I started cocking my eyebrows up and going, “Huh?” Do literary agents keep contact lists of editors at magazines?
How could this possibly be profitable? For me OR the agent?

4) In my query letters, it’s a good idea to include with my credentials that I’ve taken the class with my specific teacher, and to mention the title of his / her book. Essentially, name-dropping.

This one seemed a bit outlandish to me. “I have studied creative writing with Joe Smith, author of ‘Space Cakes,’” just looks like it would waste space on the paper. I didn’t argue with this specific piece of advice, because the teacher in question (who hasn’t been named. If Space Cakes by Joe Smith exists, it’s an odd coincidence) was suggesting that we name drop her in our query letters, and I had a feeling that suggesting it was a bad idea might have been a bad idea, since creative writing grades are somewhat subjective. But would this really make a story more attractive? Why?

5) It’s better to establish a reputation as a short-story writer before attempting novels.

This seems odd. Are the markets closely related? I mean, a reputation as a good writer couldn’t hurt in any case, but why start with short stories and then move into longer ones?

6) “Sell” your short stories to non-paying markets first to establish credentials, and then work your way up to paying markets.

Another strange piece of advice, one I argued against. Wouldn’t it be smarter to work your way down the pay scale with queries? Give Playboy first shot at everything, just in case?

This advice came attached with encouragement to submit our work to the university’s student-run (sort of…) literary journal. I refuse to give my work away, frankly, mostly because I’m too used to getting paid for it by now. This attitude is seen as pompous, for some reason, so I keep it to myself.

7) If you place a story in a non-paying market, it’s OK to try to sell it to a different, paying market, without informing the editors of either journal.

I freaked out when this was mentioned (by the teacher!) especially as she seemed to be encouraging folks to do it. Dishonesty bugs me, especially dishonesty that flies in the face of (to my knowledge) an industry standard. Is it really OK to publish a story with a student-run journal with circulation all over the city, and then act as if it’s never been published? Sounds doubtful to me. Apparently, people have gotten away with this before, and more power to them, I suppose, but it still seems like shoddy advice.

8) A positive web presence makes editors more likely to accept your work.

This makes sense to me, on one level, but on another, it really doesn’t. While I can see how an editor would prefer an author with an active twitter page, since those might be readers she normally couldn’t reach, I somehow doubt that an editor has a whole lot of time to go wading through the internet looking up every name in the pile of not-bad submissions for the day.

9) Furthermore, if you do not have a web presence, it is very difficult to sell your writing.

This one scares me. Why does an editor care if I’m not popular on facebook yet? If I write and sell a few good stories, my web presence will grow. Should I really be focusing on building the web presence first? New content for blogs isn’t easy, and doing it for free in hopes of becoming famous enough to maybe sell a short story one day seems absurd. Please, someone, tell me this is wrong.

10) You have to learn how to write literary fiction before you can write genre fiction.

Another piece of confusing advice. I think this one is the department prejudice showing through, but maybe there’s something to it. I can’t see it, though. The more I study good fiction, the more I realize that what makes it tick isn’t quantifiable, so suggesting that I have to learn how to write the things Toni Morrison writes before I can tell stories about volcanic squids seems a bit outré.

11) It's ok to simultaniously submit stories, even if the editors specifically say otherwise. They'll never know, anyway.

One of my instructors said this. It troubles me. I imagine that this is a good way to end up on a bad list.
Some of these are obviously rubbish, and I’m just ranting, but others are genuinely confusing me, or else I hadn’t heard of them until this set of courses. I am extremely interested in how the community perceives these.

Thanks!

tjwriter · Jan 10, 2011

I'm no expert Bart, but quite a bit of that flies in the face what experts in the industry are saying on AW right now.

Cyia · Jan 10, 2011

Your Prof's an idiot. Ask for a refund.

cbenoi1 · Jan 10, 2011

> 2) Literary agents scout MFA programs for new clients.

Gosh. It sounds exactly like the pitch MBA schools did ten years ago. Did they promise you would get a six-figure salary too?

-cb

whimsical rabbit · Jan 10, 2011

You know Bart, there was a somewhat similar thread like this a couple of months ago, in which I ended up posting like a madwoman, to the point that I wasn't sure what I said and why I was saying it.

I'm doing a PhD in CW, but in the UK. Now, the creative writing discipline is still considered 'exotic' by some circles here, 'an imported product from the US' (Michelene Wandor's The author is not dead, merely somewhere else: creative writing reconceived gives a good insight of the situation for anyone interested). As a result, people are trying to focus and expand on pedagogical methods, teaching materials, didactic approaches and so on. Conferences and workshops on teaching creative writing are constantly organised, calls for papers circulate the departments, and students are actively encouraged to participate. At least this is my experience from my University. I'm now entering my second year.

Now, people in my department seem to be liberated from the genre vs literary prejudice, and make a distinction between good books vs bad books instead, genre not being a criterion for it. I have come across academic snobbery in other institutions though, and this has been crucial to my choice of University, even though you can consider me in the literary/mainstream field.

As my thesis is primary of pedagogical rather than creative content, I'm one of those daydreamers who believe that creative writing is an exciting subject, and that those authors who are truly passionate about it should do their very best so that their discipline is liberated from all prejudices, encompasses all genres, and finally treats students not as fragile artistic souls that write for therapeutic purposes, but rather as future professionals that want to get published.

Hopefully, as younger academics replace the tradition and status quo-obsessed ones, as egos shrink and the love for writing takes their place, then creative writing programs will become suitable, exciting and well-respected, both by other academics, and by the commercial, successful professionals.

At the moment, I'm very puzzled as to why people want to make the simplest of things so difficult.

RichardLeon · Jan 10, 2011

How many books have your teachers published?

How well did they sell?

jaksen · Jan 10, 2011

@ Bart (May I call you Bart?)

At least you were intelligent enough to see through most of this BS.

Hats off to you.

KathleenD · Jan 10, 2011

RichardLeon said:
How many books have your teachers published?

How well did they sell?

Oh, yes. Color me fascinated by the answer to that very question.

But I'll bet you this delicious cream donut that you're going to get back some twaddle about how what you sell is more important than how many you sell.

By the way, I was once told by a professor (at a conference I attended at UNC-Asheville, in 1999) that the literary journal thing is true... if you're planning to use your degree to teach, as opposed to publish. Hiring institutions seem to be more impressed by the journals/highbrow credits.

I mention the provenance of my information only so you can decide how big a grain of salt you want to take with the data

Cyia · Jan 10, 2011

Usually, with professor penned books, the answers to these are simple:

RichardLeon said:
How many books have your teachers published?

However many they thought required for the curriculum.

How well did they sell?
How many students are in the course.

Professors like to make their books required reading for their courses, and they also seem to prefer their books to be at least twice as expensive as the standard texts.

Phaeal · Jan 10, 2011

There's so much bull in that list that if you can't sell any stories, you could go ahead and open a steak house. One of those Texas-size ones that feature 60 oz. prime ribs.

If you want to write genre fiction, a program with an active prejudice against it can prove toxic. The last thing developing writers need is to have their confidence undermined. As for the focus on short stories, that's not going to teach you how to write novels. Short and novels are related but significantly different fictive languages, like Spanish and Portuguese. Some people choose to be bilingual, and being bilingual does expand one's markets, but it's not mandatory.

"Joe Smith" might want to glance through some agent websites to see how many are looking to rep short stories or even short story collections by anyone who doesn't have a ready-made audience for them.

Dropping the instructor's name in queries? Unless the instructor's well-known, I doubt that would have much effect.

Gotta write literary fic before you can write genre? That there is a 200 oz. T-bone. It's exactly as correct to say that you have to write genre fiction before you can write literary, or that you have to own a cat before you can own a dog or eat an orange before you can try an apple.

shadowwalker · Jan 10, 2011

After reading this, I'm very glad I decided, after much thought and worry, that going back to college to learn about writing would be just so much wasted time and money.

ChaosTitan · Jan 10, 2011

Oh my. Oh Bart, you're a brave man.

I'm going to take a stab at these little gems.

1) An MFA in creative writing will make my query letters more attractive.

I think this depends. MFA's are useful if you're writing literary fiction, but few MFA's focus on popular/mainstream fiction, so they aren't as useful if you're writing, say, fantasy or westerns.

2) Literary agents scout MFA programs for new clients.

I suppose this could be true. Anyone have any cited examples of this happening?

3) Literary agents represent short stories.

Lit agents will sometimes represent collections of short stories. If you already have an agent, they may try to sell your short to anthologies for you. But few short story markets pay enough to make it worth an agent's time to rep them.

4) In my query letters, it’s a good idea to include with my credentials that I’ve taken the class with my specific teacher, and to mention the title of his / her book. Essentially, name-dropping.

Unless your professor is award-winning, or otherwise known well in the publishing industry, name-dropping won't do you any good. The benefit of SF/F writers attending workshops like Clarion is that they're taught by well-known, well-respected industry professionals. A large number of profs within the MFA programs don't have the necessary publishing credentials to make name-dropping useful.

5) It’s better to establish a reputation as a short-story writer before attempting novels.

Better for who? Not everyone can write short stories--I'm proof of that. I struggle hard with shorts, but novels are not a problem. In certain genres, having shorts published can be helpful, but it isn't a make it/break it thing. A lot of folks publish novels without ever writing or selling a short story. Likewise, a lot of folks successfully publish shorts without ever mastering novels.

6) “Sell” your short stories to non-paying markets first to establish credentials, and then work your way up to paying markets.

Start from the top and work your way down. Always.

7) If you place a story in a non-paying market, it’s OK to try to sell it to a different, paying market, without informing the editors of either journal.

Wow. No. Not okay, and this professor is an idiot. Paying or not, once that first market publishes your story, you've used up first rights. You can't, in good faith, resell those rights to another market. It's dishonest. And it's quite easy for those markets to discover the deceit. Good way to make a bad name for yourself.

8) A positive web presence makes editors more likely to accept your work.

A well-written, compelling manuscript makes editors more likely to accept your work.

9) Furthermore, if you do not have a web presence, it is very difficult to sell your writing.

See my answer to #8. A web presence can be useful. For example, if you're a well-known blogger with a following, you have a built-in audience for your work. But I can't think of a single scenario in which having this presence actually affected an editor's decision. Web presence is helpful, but not a deal-breaker.

10) You have to learn how to write literary fiction before you can write genre fiction.

:roll:

I'm glad no one told me this before I sold six genre novels. I'd still be struggling to string words together.

So yeah, from me and a lot of other genre writers who have had similar experiences, I call bullshit.

11) It's ok to simultaniously submit stories, even if the editors specifically say otherwise. They'll never know, anyway.

Unfortunately, this is a gray area that has even been debated in threads at AW. In most cases, you have to go with your conscience. I'd never do it; other people might.

veinglory · Jan 10, 2011

Cyia said:
Professors like to make their books required reading for their courses, and they also seem to prefer their books to be at least twice as expensive as the standard texts.

If your professor is an expert in a subject, is teaching a course on that subject, and has written a book on that subject--why would they not use it as a text?

But that is generally the case in content areas, not creative writing.

Fokker Aeroplanbau · Jan 10, 2011

I think I'm going to be a MFA Prof, it sounds like a fantastic scam and I've always had an ability in con'ing.

gothicangel · Jan 10, 2011

Bartholomew said:
My creative writing courses, and the English classes around them puffing out my degree, have been forcing some odd ideas onto me about writing, and how it works on the publishing end. The department at my university is extremely prejudiced against some types of fiction—they divide everything up into “Genre” and “Literary,” but they can’t adequately define either term for me. Or if they can, they’ve so far refused. I picked up on this odd prejudice almost immediately, but I don’t mind. Different perspectives make the world go round, and nothing they say will ever convince me that fantasy and horror are not worth writing.

*Sigh*

I'm only going to explain this one more time [yeah, right.]

University departments are not prejudice against genre fiction. Genre fiction is extremely problematic because it has to appeal to an international audience.

Do some research and you'll find Universities that teach horror and sci-fi/fantasy right up to PhD level. My own university [The University of Stirling] teaches Gothic Literature [Stephen King, Anne Rice] and Newcastle University teaches Children's Literature [JK Rowling, Philip Pullman.]

latourdumoine · Jan 10, 2011

Okay, I did an MA in Creative Writing in the UK, so here are my thoughts and comments based on that.

Bartholomew said:
1) An MFA in creative writing will make my query letters more attractive.

Well, it shows that you are able to see something through, most likely you're also able to deal with criticism, work to deadlines and have learned to listen when someone, considered an expert i.e. your writing tutor, tells you something. I'd say it gives the agents more of an idea as to your personality than your writing. Some programs however do carry a lot of clout with them, so if you're on one of those, seeing as how they only take a select few, I'd say it would be a bonus.

2) Literary agents scout MFA programs for new clients.

Half and half. The program I was on didn't have any agents coming in. I think there might have been a promise made to that extent but nothing came of it. The reason I chose it though was because I'd already done Creative Writing (in combination with another major) at the same school, and I really wanted to work some more with one of the tutors as I felt that I could still learn a lot from him, which turned out to be true. We had about four different tutors on that course and for me personally, it looked like this: two I could work with outstandingly. One was in my field i.e. novels, the other was in an entirely different field altogether. That worked. With the other two it was the same set-up, one in my field, the other doing something else. I couldn't work with those two because I didn't respect their advice as I found that they let their own emotions and prejudices stand in the way. I asked one of them once if that was true as the prejudice concerned something I was connected to, and that pretty much killed any and all input from the tutor's side, though I was told that it wasn't the case.

I have to say though that some friends of mine did an MA in Creative Writing at another university and they met with agents towards the end of the degree. But theirs was an extremely well established course, one that had a national reputation (from what I gathered) with many prize-winning authors graduating from there.

4) In my query letters, it’s a good idea to include with my credentials that I’ve taken the class with my specific teacher, and to mention the title of his / her book. Essentially, name-dropping.

Mentioning that you took a class with a published author is not something I would see as name dropping. Especially if that author is established and has been running the course for a while. Look at it this way, the course has been around for several years. People on the course want to publish. So they ask the author for advice. The author will then direct them to the appropriate agent (if he or she sees fit). If the author is good, her or she has sent some real gems the agent's way, so when the agent reads that your tutor was Joe Smith, and they trust his judgment, they're more likely to perk up.

Mentioning the title of his or her book however is name-dropping and can really hurt your chances. Back when I was only taking Creative Writing as part of a course, I was in that situation in a way. My tutor found out I was doing a certain project, told me it was impossible to see it through and I'd never achieve it. Then, when he found out that I was seeing it through and was making great headway, he latched on to it, muscling his way in, ultimately costing me a potential contract. On second thought I probably wasn't the right person for the project to begin with and karma got him back but it was an interesting and important lesson to learn.

5) It’s better to establish a reputation as a short-story writer before attempting novels.

The only way this would make sense to me is if you get as much writing practice as possible and to have as many completed works as possible, again, so you can feel the satisfaction that comes with it and build your credentials. Short stories are also easier to critique in class for some as they can see how the writer treats the entire development from beginning to end. But on the whole, I really call BS on this one. Like someone else pointed out, some people write short stories, others novels. The key is to find what works for you and listen to your gut feeling. And if you don't attempt novels, how are you going to learn? Writing especially is pretty much learning by doing. Sounds like tutor either has a very sweet deal with some magazines or else doesn't want competition in the novel field.

6) “Sell” your short stories to non-paying markets first to establish credentials, and then work your way up to paying markets.

Work your way down. It's up to the individual whether they're okay with working for free, and the student magazine would obviously showcase the tutor's course some more (hence the encouragement. This tutor really sounds off to me on so many levels).

7) If you place a story in a non-paying market, it’s OK to try to sell it to a different, paying market, without informing the editors of either journal.

It's okay to try and sell it to a paying market but let the editors know by all means. With something where you end up in the public eye and the sources are so easily checked, play it straight.

8) A positive web presence makes editors more likely to accept your work.

A positive web presence makes it easier for your tutor to sell their work. Think of it this way, you will feel so grateful for all the advice they've given you, how could you not mention them on Twitter. Also, in some cultures you simply can't deny your tutor a request because it's an issue of respect, they will always be above you, no matter what happens, in your mind, in theirs. I'm not criticizing it as I've been around both attitudes, where the tutor is a friend and the tutor is a figure to be respected, and I can see the benefits in both. But some people abuse it, whether they're the authority figure that is meant to guide you or the friend.

9) Furthermore, if you do not have a web presence, it is very difficult to sell your writing.

If your work is good and they want you to have a web presence, the agents or editors or whoever can set one up. And they have experts. Otherwise they can suggest you have one and then give you pointers on what to focus on.

10) You have to learn how to write literary fiction before you can write genre fiction.

Outdated as that sounds, I can see some sort of logic behind it. You know how in art they will tell you, you have to learn how to paint the way the masters did, learn how to paint the body parts, then do your own thing? Well, I can see that operating here. But I was always under the impression that you graduate up to literary fiction, the way you wouldn't attempt a PhD before your Masters degree. I am not putting genre fiction down. I just know that I'd been writing for about 10+ years before I even thought of trying to attempt something even remotely close to what Toni Morrison does (lover her work btw). YMMV of course.

Chris P · Jan 10, 2011

The only thing that made much sense to me (and I'm still a fledgling) was the part about an MFA making me more attractive: I looked into one agent who only represented writers with an MFA. All of the others I've investigated didn't specify any degrees.

I might have believed some the others to some degree if I hadn't been to AW. Makes we wonder who your prof has been talking to.

Terie · Jan 10, 2011

gothicangel said:
University departments are not prejudice against genre fiction. Genre fiction is extremely problematic because it has to appeal to an international audience.

Do some research and you'll find Universities that teach horror and sci-fi/fantasy right up to PhD level. My own university [The University of Stirling] teaches Gothic Literature [Stephen King, Anne Rice] and Newcastle University teaches Children's Literature [JK Rowling, Philip Pullman.]

You left the word 'some' out of that first sentence quote above. In the US, there is considerable prejudice within the academic creative writing community against genre fiction. It's just true, whether you like it or not.

It's also true that there are exceptions.

My (US) alma mater has an outstanding, internationally acclaimed children's lit program. Some of the professors in it have published commercially, including in genre fiction. Some of them teach at the post-grad level in both children's lit and genre lit. At the same time, the head of the MFA program won't accept work that isn't literary. That's extremes on both ends at the same university.

So...please don't say that literary snobbism simply doesn't exist. It's not universal, but it IS dominant at many or even most US universities.

Momento Mori · Jan 10, 2011

I did my MA in Creative Writing in the UK, so with that in mind ...

1) An MFA in creative writing will make my query letters more attractive.

This one is probably true, but I kind of get the feeling that it’s just as often not true.

Depends on where you're doing your MA and what its reputation is and whether that reputation is good in the genre you're writing in. In general, I think that it's worth mentioning an MA if you have one and mentioning an MA from the University of East Anglia will always help if you write literary fiction in the UK.

2) Literary agents scout MFA programs for new clients.

I had never heard this before. If it is true, it makes an MFA program very attractive.

Depends on where you do your MA/MFA and what its links are with agents and publishers. I did my MA at City University and the course put together an anthology of the students' work to go to agents and publishers and held a showcase where we all read more from our work and got to schmooze.

Almost all of us were contacted by agents who'd seen our work in the anthology and about half were further collared by agents at the Showcase. Certainly it enabled me to get my agent, who signed me on the basis of my anthology contribution and the first 3 chapters.

1 year on from when I graduated and about a third of the class have representation. 4 have been at the stage where they had completed manuscripts shopped to publishers (as a result of which 1 has secured a US publishing deal with a big publisher and looks like going to auction in the UK, 2 failed to get deals and are working on their next books with their agents and 1 is still on submission and getting close with no luck so far). I'm still in the process of rewrites prior to submission (which is a consequence of getting signed on a partial) but have a list of 11 publishers waiting to get it when it's ready and who are getting frequent updates from my agent.

3) Literary agents represent short stories.

This is about where I started cocking my eyebrows up and going, “Huh?” Do literary agents keep contact lists of editors at magazines?
How could this possibly be profitable? For me OR the agent?

It depends. Some agents might get approached by a commercial publisher looking to put an anthology together who'll ask if their client is interested, in which case if there's an advance element then they might do the work for a cut. Some agents may also be interested in representing clients who have short story collections to sell as well (in which case they take a cut of the advance for the collection). Most of the time though agents don't actively look for short stories to rep because the numbers don't make sense.

My agent and I had that conversation prior to signature and she said it's not worth her while to do that unless I particularly want her to.

4) In my query letters, it’s a good idea to include with my credentials that I’ve taken the class with my specific teacher, and to mention the title of his / her book. Essentially, name-dropping.

This one seemed a bit outlandish to me. “I have studied creative writing with Joe Smith, author of ‘Space Cakes,’” just looks like it would waste space on the paper. I didn’t argue with this specific piece of advice, because the teacher in question (who hasn’t been named. If Space Cakes by Joe Smith exists, it’s an odd coincidence) was suggesting that we name drop her in our query letters, and I had a feeling that suggesting it was a bad idea might have been a bad idea, since creative writing grades are somewhat subjective. But would this really make a story more attractive? Why?

There's little point in name dropping unless you're querying Joe Smith's agent and he's given you permission to mention his name.

I took classes and workshops with Monica Ali, John O'Farrell, Moshin Hamed and a host of others but there's little point mentioning that unless they sponsor you.

5) It’s better to establish a reputation as a short-story writer before attempting novels.

This seems odd. Are the markets closely related? I mean, a reputation as a good writer couldn’t hurt in any case, but why start with short stories and then move into longer ones?

No. If you've got a history of publishing short stories then those credentials will help your query letter but if you really want to write a novel then write the novel.

6) “Sell” your short stories to non-paying markets first to establish credentials, and then work your way up to paying markets.

Another strange piece of advice, one I argued against. Wouldn’t it be smarter to work your way down the pay scale with queries? Give Playboy first shot at everything, just in case?

This advice came attached with encouragement to submit our work to the university’s student-run (sort of…) literary journal. I refuse to give my work away, frankly, mostly because I’m too used to getting paid for it by now. This attitude is seen as pompous, for some reason, so I keep it to myself.

No. Start at the top professional paying markets and work your way down. If you've got a good story then why would you give it to Epublisher Daily instead of The New Yorker? If nothing else, it gets you used to rejection.

7) If you place a story in a non-paying market, it’s OK to try to sell it to a different, paying market, without informing the editors of either journal.

I freaked out when this was mentioned (by the teacher!) especially as she seemed to be encouraging folks to do it. Dishonesty bugs me, especially dishonesty that flies in the face of (to my knowledge) an industry standard. Is it really OK to publish a story with a student-run journal with circulation all over the city, and then act as if it’s never been published? Sounds doubtful to me. Apparently, people have gotten away with this before, and more power to them, I suppose, but it still seems like shoddy advice.

Definitely not and your tutor is an unethical idiot for suggesting it.

8) A positive web presence makes editors more likely to accept your work.

This makes sense to me, on one level, but on another, it really doesn’t. While I can see how an editor would prefer an author with an active twitter page, since those might be readers she normally couldn’t reach, I somehow doubt that an editor has a whole lot of time to go wading through the internet looking up every name in the pile of not-bad submissions for the day.

A web presence can be useful for your agent in pitching your work because it gives you a marketing platform that you can build from but it's not a necessity. A good book will sell regardless of whether you blog or twitter or whatever. A bad book will not necessarily sell even if you've got twelfthy million followers on Facebook.

9) Furthermore, if you do not have a web presence, it is very difficult to sell your writing.

This one scares me. Why does an editor care if I’m not popular on facebook yet? If I write and sell a few good stories, my web presence will grow. Should I really be focusing on building the web presence first? New content for blogs isn’t easy, and doing it for free in hopes of becoming famous enough to maybe sell a short story one day seems absurd. Please, someone, tell me this is wrong.

No. Utter bullshit. Your tutor is an idiot for suggesting it.

10) You have to learn how to write literary fiction before you can write genre fiction.

Another piece of confusing advice. I think this one is the department prejudice showing through, but maybe there’s something to it. I can’t see it, though. The more I study good fiction, the more I realize that what makes it tick isn’t quantifiable, so suggesting that I have to learn how to write the things Toni Morrison writes before I can tell stories about volcanic squids seems a bit outré.

No. If you want to write literary fiction, then yeah a course geared towards that will help. However it's not a prerequisite for writing genre.

11) It's ok to simultaniously submit stories, even if the editors specifically say otherwise. They'll never know, anyway.

One of my instructors said this. It troubles me. I imagine that this is a good way to end up on a bad list.
Some of these are obviously rubbish, and I’m just ranting, but others are genuinely confusing me, or else I hadn’t heard of them until this set of courses. I am extremely interested in how the community perceives these.

For short stories, you should ideally follow the guidelines and if they say don't do a sim sub then don't do it. However, I do know people who break this rule and it didn't hurt them.

All in all, your tutor is a ninny. Take what they say with a pinch of salt.

MM

kullervo · Jan 10, 2011

I have a BA in art with a concentration in oil painting and an MFA in screenwriting from UCLA. The BA has given me a pleasant hobby and saved me hundreds of dollars when I used a self-portrait as my author photo. The MFA was a giant, flaming waste of time. It's not the degree, it's not the program, it's not the school—*it's the work and the writer that count.

L

gothicangel · Jan 10, 2011

Terie said:
You left the word 'some' out of that first sentence quote above. In the US, there is considerable prejudice within the academic creative writing community against genre fiction. It's just true, whether you like it or not.

It's also true that there are exceptions.

My (US) alma mater has an outstanding, internationally acclaimed children's lit program. Some of the professors in it have published commercially, including in genre fiction. Some of them teach at the post-grad level in both children's lit and genre lit. At the same time, the head of the MFA program won't accept work that isn't literary. That's extremes on both ends at the same university.

So...please don't say that literary snobbism simply doesn't exist. It's not universal, but it IS dominant at many or even most US universities.

This is not my experience, maybe I've just been lucky enough to have only met the enlightened academics.

It may exist, but it is dying out.

Darkwing · Jan 10, 2011

1) An MFA in creative writing will make my query letters more attractive.

I don't see how this is true. I think agents are far more interested in the quality of the plot and writing. The only thing that having an MFA might tell them is that you are possibly more aware of your language than some other writers, and you know how to self-edit. But of course every good agent knows that you don't have to have an MFA to have those skills, and not every MFA has them.

2) Literary agents scout MFA programs for new clients.

I've never heard of this. Do they have time?

3) Literary agents represent short stories.

Everything I've heard says this is waaaay not true. Not individual shorts, at any rate.

4) In my query letters, it’s a good idea to include with my credentials that I’ve taken the class with my specific teacher, and to mention the title of his / her book. Essentially, name-dropping.

I've heard this is bunk. Unless your teacher was some really big name, I don't think the agent cares, and I think it even looks bad for you. Even if your teacher was a big name, I've heard agents still don't care so much.

5) It’s better to establish a reputation as a short-story writer before attempting novels.

I don't know if it's better. I think writing short stories first allows you to hone your craft in a small setting, helps you learn how to finish things, etc. Publication certainly isn't essential, though. And I don't think agents generally care if you've been writing short stories unless maybe you've been published in a big magazine more than once?

6) “Sell” your short stories to non-paying markets first to establish credentials, and then work your way up to paying markets.

I always send to the best markets first. If my story was somehow good enough and it got picked up by a lower-paying market, I'd never forgive myself for not having it rejected by the best first. Consequently, none of my stories have yet made their way down the totem pole to a non-paying market. One got stopped and accepted on its journey, and I've now been paid for it.

7) If you place a story in a non-paying market, it’s OK to try to sell it to a different, paying market, without informing the editors of either journal.

NO NO NO NO. If you're found out, that's major bad reputation. By all means, offer reprint rights to another magazine. But always say it was published somewhere else first.

8) A positive web presence makes editors more likely to accept your work.

Eh....I think it's more that if you're being a brat on the internet it might make an editor less likely to accept your work. If you're snarking about the industry, etc, you're just not going to be a nice person to work with. I think as long as you remain professional regarding the industry it's fine.

9) Furthermore, if you do not have a web presence, it is very difficult to sell your writing.

I hate this. It may be true, it may not be. But I hate it. I don't have time to write a blog. I think building a website at this stage of my career would be pretentious. I think the time for that is after the work has been sold. And yes, having a ready-made audience is nice, but I have better things to do. Like survive grad school and actually finish my writing.

10) You have to learn how to write literary fiction before you can write genre fiction.

As a fantasy writer, I think this is junk. I think you need to read lots of types of fiction. I think contact with literary writers makes my prose nicer. But I've never written literary fiction, and I never intend to. It would turn out horribly because I really have no passion for it.

11) It's ok to simultaneously submit stories, even if the editors specifically say otherwise. They'll never know, anyway.

I've heard this. I don't do it. Most of the markets I submit to take about 20-50 days, and I think I can wait that long. Once a story is out, I think I should leave it. Sure, it might take a long time to sell that way, but what do I care as long as I'm writing new stuff?

Oh, and as for the prejudice against genre in universities . . . sorry, but I see evidence of it a lot. I even get the sense that my own university tolerates my genre fixation because I'm a good student, my writing is good quality and improving, and they like me as a person. And I'm younger than the average grad student. Maybe it's something that's more apparent in America? I mean, I'm sure there are genre-friendly programs out there, but for the most part it seems universities think themselves too good for what they see as lower-quality work. This is one reason why I'm seriously considering not going on to a Ph.D. program after my master's (which is actually in Lit, since my university doesn't offer an MFA).

Toothpaste · Jan 10, 2011

gothicangel said:
This is not my experience, maybe I've just been lucky enough to have only met the enlightened academics.

It may exist, but it is dying out.

How can you say it "may" exist, when Bart just explained that in his program it does exist? Further you just were given yet another example of personal experience of it existing. It isn't a question of "may". It DOES exist. Now, it MAY be dying out (I'd like to see proof of that), but there is still a heck of a lot of snobbery towards genre writing in general, let alone in academic institutions.

Terie · Jan 10, 2011

gothicangel said:
This is not my experience, maybe I've just been lucky enough to have only met the enlightened academics.

It may exist, but it is dying out.

You are making sweeping generalisations based on an extremely limited data set. Your experience of a number of UK universities doesn't necessarily apply to all UK universities and certainly doesn't apply to all US universities.

To wit: Ten years ago next weekend, I was kicked out of a UK MA in Creative Writing course because I write children's lit and fantasy. In fairness, the head of that programme is gone and the new leadership does accept and even encourage both children's and genre lit. But that person who booted me now heads the MA programme at another UK university.

Tifferbugz · Jan 10, 2011

gothicangel said:
This is not my experience, maybe I've just been lucky enough to have only met the enlightened academics.

It may exist, but it is dying out.

Many MFA programs (in the US) do not allow genre fiction for applicant's writing samples when applying, that makes a pretty strong statement.

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