Is This The Beginning of the End For Waterstone's?

I imagine Tim Waterstone would buy them back in a fire sale. Otherwise, it would be a disaster.

gothicangel said:

HMV I could lose, but if they dragged down Waterstone's with them I'll be heartbroken.

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I'm with you there. I'd be gutted if Waterstone's shut! As to why HMV are losing...

This is just me, but over Christmas tried to buy some games in there for son/husband. A BIG part of the shop is games (at least as much as music in my local). They didn't have a single one I was after (top new games too, and not 'out of stock', more 'we don't hold that stock') While I was there, I heard a few others grumbling the same. Place was almost empty. Game, however, was chockablock. They're falling behind somewhere on what people want to buy and pricing too I think, failing to compete with Game (and Tesco et al) in the High Street and Amazon/Play online.


I think they need to re-evaluate their market plan, because currently there's nothing to make me go to HMV rather than somewhere else, and several reasons not to.

Waterstones' sales were unchanged, the problems are all on the HMV CD/DVD/games retailing side.

Ex HMV employee wading in here...

I worked there between 1997 and 2001. Back in those days, albums were the big sellers. The company as a whole didn't care too much about singles. Videos (remember them? ) came just behind albums, and the idea of selling mobiles or anything 'techy' was just stupid. It was an industry of music shops with the business model of employing staff who knew their stuff. The company admitted it was more expensive than other retailers but it prided itself on having staff who could answer questions rather than just standing at the till shouting who's next?

About a year after I left, a friend who still worked there told me it was changing. Management wanted staff to focus more on pushing various new plans (loyalty cards etc) rather than using their knowledge to order stuff that would sell. Now thanks to people being able to download singles rather than having to buy an album to get what they want, as well as reality TV singing contests, singles are where it's at and people generally don't care about albums. And on a sidenote, the shop I worked in is closing down in a couple of weeks while the larger HMV inside the shopping centre (previously a Virgin until it closed down and HMV took it over) is full of X Factor albums and staff shouting who's next.

All this is a long way of saying HMV has let itself go down the toilet and it wouldn't surprise me if they take Waterstones with them.

A part of me is bursting with Schadenfreude.

It's all personal, mind you. Here in Eastbourne we used to have a Waterstone's and an Ottakars. I always bought my books at Ottakars; it was such a nice, friendly store and they had one employee, Al, who was a champion. He ran a reading group, and twice they read my books and he invited me to come along.

Then Waterstone's took over Ottakars and planted an HMV in the building. I was furious, and actually boycotted Waterstones for a while. I was thinking of poor Al. Some time later I met him, working in a used book shop. It was so sad.

I just don't like Waterstone's. Sorry. No tears for them.

We've got two Waterstone's in Norwich, one the corpse of Ottakars. You could probably lob a cricket ball from one to the other. They have almost exactly the same stock.

Here in the US, Borders is having financial problems. They are trying to refinance their debt and asking publishers to wait for payments.

Priene said:

We've got two Waterstone's in Norwich.

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We used to have two. Then one closed, leaving us with the other one and a WH Smiths. A few years back, we had an HMV, a Virgin, an Andy's Records, a Woolworths and an Our Price. In two weeks, we'll have one HMV.

seun said:

We used to have two. Then one closed, leaving us with the other one and a WH Smiths. A few years back, we had an HMV, a Virgin, an Andy's Records, a Woolworths and an Our Price. In two weeks, we'll have one HMV.

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Bet you've got a load of coffee chains and mobile phone shops, though.

Yeah. They fill the spaces between chain pubs and pound shops.

gothicangel said:

All that is left is one Waterstones and one Blackwells [link to Newcastle Uni.]

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We'd be down to a couple of remainder shops, plus Oxfam and a few second hand places. Oh, and Jarrolds, which is cool.

gothicangel said:

I remember going into Ottakers in Carlisle. I was not impressed.

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That's Carlisle for you.

Waterstones managed to capture the bookshop atmosphere with their store design, but that's always been a bit of stick-on fake marketing.

Commercially they've always been the equivalent of box shifters. They define the mainstream, and they don't do much to support work outside it. In fact they've homogenised the market and made it harder, not easier, for indies and smaller authors.

Although having said that, if it's down to Tesco etc for paper pub and Amazon for the rest, that's obviously going to homogenise the market further.

I think this could be the year when publishing finally wakes up to the Internet and realises that except for the top 250 or so best-sellers, it's pretty much game over for paper - if not now, then certainly over the next few years.

RichardLeon said:

Although having said that, if it's down to Tesco etc for paper pub and Amazon for the rest, that's obviously going to homogenise the market further.

I think this could be the year when publishing finally wakes up to the Internet and realises that except for the top 250 or so best-sellers, it's pretty much game over for paper - if not now, then certainly over the next few years.

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What about libraries?

seun said:

What about libraries?

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Closing everywhere - and that was before the 30% off the budget that most councils are trying to work around.

I forgot -- we also have W H Smith's in Eastbourne -- of course.
I'm aware of the sharp reality of Waterstone's going. I just still bear them a grudge.
There really is nothing to beat a bookshop atmosphere -- ebooks can't replace that.

W H Smug is more a card and gift shop, anyway. And magazines. And stationery. And weird stuff with no practical applications.

We've got Waterstone's and that's it bar charity shops (mind you it's pretty good. The manager, at least I think she is, has been working there through its incarnations as Hammicks, Dillons and Ottakers to now, and she's fab)

It's always really busy though.

Priene said:

We've got two Waterstone's in Norwich, one the corpse of Ottakars. You could probably lob a cricket ball from one to the other. They have almost exactly the same stock.

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Same in MK, though you'd have to have a good arm and the ability to lob your cricket ball around corners.
I miss Dublin, they have some great independent bookshops there. Chapters in Parnell Street is a great shop. New books downstairs, used upstairs.

gothicangel said:

BBC have just announced that 20 branches of Waterstones are to close.

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Looks like it's Waterstone's dragging HMV down. I'd guess a same-store decline of 8.5% will kill a business pretty quickly.

gothicangel said:

This is HMV's loss this time, the culprit being the Games Store.

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Doesn't surprise me. HMV is pretty overpriced for games, in my experience. I asked for a game for Christmas, and my Aunt got me the wrong one - from HMV. It was GTA4, a pretty old game now - you can get it in Game new for about £15. Since I already have it, she gave me the receipt to exchange it. She paid £25 - for a pre-owned copy!
I exchanged it for The Pacific on Blu-ray and got the right game from Game.

gothicangel said:

Not this time.

Waterstone's loss this time was only 0.4% on the same period last year. This is HMV's loss this time, the culprit being the Games Store.

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Looks like the BBC have their figures wrong. As you say, Waterstone's is only a bit down the crapper.