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latourdumoine
01-05-2011, 07:15 AM
Hi, I'm trying to see how people pick up on this scenario as it's an important part in the plot.

If you haven't eaten before a workout and you're working out with weights, is it possible for your hands to start shaking "because of all the energy leaving the body" about 90 minutes after you stopped training?

Character A used to be scared of Character B and now the tables have turned, something B is reluctant to admit to but A picks up on after a while. A walks in unexpectedly, while B is having a meal at their usual hangout. After a few seconds of sitting together, B says that his hands are shaking because he hasn't eaten anything and now the energy is leaving his body, hence the shaking.

While it is clear that the statement is a complete cover, I would still like to have it somewhat founded in fact. So is B's statement in any way realistic, considering that he works out pretty much every day?

Kitty Pryde
01-05-2011, 07:30 AM
The energy wouldn't 'leave his body' 90 minutes after a workout. That's not really how biology works, and that doesn't sound like something a fitness enthusiast who knows how his body works would say. If he hadn't eaten, he could very well have low blood sugar. Feeling/being shaky in that situation is totally reasonable. But, if he's eating for more than five minutes, he wouldn't have that problem. If he had really pushed his muscles past the point of fatigue, I spose they could be shaking as the muscle tries and fails to sustain contraction during intentional motion (ie, while trying to pick up a cup or something, not while at rest laying on a table).

/end human physiology wank

backslashbaby
01-05-2011, 07:37 AM
I thought of blood sugar, too. Sometimes it takes more than a few minutes to feel completely better, for me.

Or if you work out with a touch of the flu, etc. It can feel like crap for a while after, or in spells. I could see shaky, for sure.

latourdumoine
01-05-2011, 08:17 AM
The energy wouldn't 'leave his body' 90 minutes after a workout. That's not really how biology works, and that doesn't sound like something a fitness enthusiast who knows how his body works would say. If he hadn't eaten, he could very well have low blood sugar. Feeling/being shaky in that situation is totally reasonable. But, if he's eating for more than five minutes, he wouldn't have that problem. If he had really pushed his muscles past the point of fatigue, I spose they could be shaking as the muscle tries and fails to sustain contraction during intentional motion (ie, while trying to pick up a cup or something, not while at rest laying on a table).

/end human physiology wank

Thanks, love the "human physiology wank" comment :)

The idea is that A's presence scares him and that's why his hands start shaking. He holds them up for A to see and then gives A the whole spiel about it being due to training to cover the fact that A's presence is scaring him. A's hands used to shake in the past so he's turning it around. He just started eating, one second before A shows up. But based on what you just wrote, I'm considering changing it to him waiting for the meal. A picks up on the fact that what he's saying is bull, as he would know his body. That's what I meant with the fake cover in the OP. Sorry, will try and post at a more decent hour when my brain is actually functioning, instead of in the middle of the night or the break of dawn.


I thought of blood sugar, too. Sometimes it takes more than a few minutes to feel completely better, for me.

Or if you work out with a touch of the flu, etc. It can feel like crap for a while after, or in spells. I could see shaky, for sure.

True that. I just never got it in my hands for some reason. But then, they're doing fine shaking on their own when the butterflies in my stomach kick in, so I guess the work out gods are trying to give me a break there. :)

Marlys
01-05-2011, 03:34 PM
To strengthen his excuse, you might have him drinking coffee while waiting for the meal. Caffeine on an empty stomach after a hard workout would do it for me.

Captcha
01-05-2011, 03:46 PM
My hands and arms will often quiver for hours after being over-exerted, if I try to use them for anything, even lifting a fork. I'm actually paranoid about it, now - before reading this thread, I'd assumed it was normal...

latourdumoine
01-05-2011, 08:16 PM
To strengthen his excuse, you might have him drinking coffee while waiting for the meal. Caffeine on an empty stomach after a hard workout would do it for me.
I had him drinking a coke :). But that reminds me, would the caffeine be there to tide him over while he's waiting for the food or just because he wants to wake up or because it brings up your blood sugar immediately?


My hands and arms will often quiver for hours after being over-exerted, if I try to use them for anything, even lifting a fork. I'm actually paranoid about it, now - before reading this thread, I'd assumed it was normal...

Oh please don't get paranoid. This is a one-off specific situation describing two people, who are mutually scared of each other (and there is a very good reason for this fear on both sides). I've had the quivering you described and so have my friends, so it is perfectly normal. I just wanted to take that scene and make it as realistic as possible, while still keeping the "other" elements in mind. Their entire relationship is built on that, something not quite normal, that can be explained away until you look at the way they interact with each other. But the relationship between the two people is really not something you would encounter every day, so they can't behave like "normal" people do. This actually makes sense (hopefully) when you read the entire scene (it's in the draft stage for now) and know the characters.

There, I really hope I managed to take away the paranoid feeling. :) Damn, now I'm starting to feel slightly guilty.

backslashbaby
01-06-2011, 12:08 AM
:) Kate, you probably over-exert more than I like to over-exert :) It's easy to do!

Captcha
01-06-2011, 03:05 AM
Or maybe what would be a regular exertion for someone else is an over-exertion for me...

Sheila Muirenn
01-06-2011, 04:22 AM
That's a decrease in glycogen (low blood sugar), and causes a decrease in performance until the athlete just can't go on anymore. Especially sports where a lot of energy or calories are burned.(Like road cycling, which I do, btw).

Also, I've read recent articles that show women burn energy differently than men. Women are more likely to need fuel before and during, whereas men can start on a empty stomach, and just fuel as they go. But, they typicall need more calories since they burn more.

When I ride at an average of 19 mph, I burn about 450 calories per half hour. (As determined by my weight and speed). Since I might do a metric century (100 km or around 63 miles) or a century (100 miles), my need for fuel is considerable. On the day of my last metric, I averaged 19.5 mph, completed it in 3 hours and 20 minutes, and ate in excess of 4500 calories that day. By the next day, I had lost 3 pounds. I also ate a lot on the following day, and continued to lose 2 pounds per day for the next 3 days, until I leveled out. I leveled out by eating well. (High calorie, high quality whole foods). I had burned too much energy to consider losing weight under those circumstances.

And that is the key, really. A high-performance athelete has a lot of control over their body weight, caloric intake and output, rate of metabolism. Losing weight under the wrong circumstances is not healthy. Moderation is better during weight loss. Not high-performance.

On a short ride (aroud 20-30 regular miles) I might drink 250-300 calories of sports drink, plus 120 calories per hour or so of food. (Sports drink is juice smoothie, protein powder, salt, and water. Solid food is high whole grain carb and protein energy bar and/or honey). Plus, I eat an additional 350 calories of high protein and whole grain carbohydrates within an hour of stopping, because your muscles absorb optimum amounts of protein during that time. This is considered a recovery meal. All of this is in addition to my regular calories per day. I generally eat 1500-1800 calories per day with no or little exercise (under 1.5 hours of exercise is a light day of exercise for me). When I go to the gym, I might add 200 calories or so, but not too much. Just depends. If I go to the gym for 4 hours, I eat more.

The reason I add salt to my home-made sports drink is to prevent hypotranemia, or an electrolyte imbalance. When you sweat a lot and hydrate without replacing salt, this can happen.

The term for not fueling properly in cycling, so that a rider can't go on, is 'bonking.' Seriously;) If you bonk, you didn't hydrate and fuel properly. You are also considered a newbie rider if you get into that kind of trouble. And rightly so.

I should add, I typically eat: whole grain carbohydrate/high protein Cliff Bars, Odwalla bars, Kashi Cereal, Oatmeal, juice smoothies, fruits like banannas, berries, citrus, apples, kiwi, veggies like avocados, greens, yellow veggies, legumes, brown rice, other whole grains like Teff, Amaranth, Buckwheat, raw nuts, eggs, milk, Greek Strained Yogurt, Mushrooms (very high in protein, btw), Bolthouse Farms protein and or smoothie drinks. Etc etc. I attempt to eat only whole grains. I never eat fried foods, though I use a lot of olive oil, olives are good too, come to think of it. Snacks are, uh, Cliff bars, Wasa Crackers, Edamame (soy) nuts, raw brazil nuts, fig bars, some cheese. I use real butter too. Small amounts though.

Absolutely no 'diet' foods. Diet foods are high in salt, sugar, or fat to compensate for what is lost. It's low quality food and I refuse to eat it.

Okay, so. Can you answer your own question now? What kind of condition is the athlete in? How long did they exercise and at what intensity? Did they hydrate properly and maintain electrolyte balance? Do they eat well in general? Or do they eat garbage? Are they trying to lose weight by extreme measures? (Leaving out entire food groups like carbs, extended periods of too few calories, wrong balance of salts, maybe too much caffiene, avoiding food before exercise to lose weight. Or, do they attempt too much exercise for achieved fitness-level? Didn't cover that, but self-explanatory, conditioning is necessary. Did they warm-up properly? That could contribute to the body shutting down if they jump in without warming up plus no food.

latourdumoine
01-06-2011, 07:10 AM
Wow, thanks so much. And yes, that was helpful.

The character in question is very health conscious, knows what works for his body and is prone to sometimes not warming up (and usually pays for it - I'm blatantly using my brothers for inspiration here but hey, what is family for ;) ). In this particular scene he's eating a burger and fries because it ties in with something that happened between him and the other character earlier.

And like you, I do not believe in diet foods. And I use real butter as well. I just don't trust diet foods though I do know some people, who work out on a regular basis and will only eat diet foods.

jaksen
01-09-2011, 01:24 AM
My hands and arms will often quiver for hours after being over-exerted, if I try to use them for anything, even lifting a fork. I'm actually paranoid about it, now - before reading this thread, I'd assumed it was normal...

Re. the quivering of the overtaxed muscles:

Isn't that due to the muscle fibers breaking down? Later, they repair themselves by laying down new fibers. If the muscle is worked a lot, they overcompensate and add extra fibers. Over time that's how a muscle gets larger and stronger.

Same things happen in bone. If you walk a lot or use certain limbs (or bones) a lot, the bone can actually get somewhat larger or stronger in that area. Hence, this is how forensic archaeologists can hypothesize/determine, from skeletal remains, if a person was a horseback rider (large femurs) or a weaver or archer (large upper arm bones or humerus), or a gladiator (larger upper body/bone structure) and etc. etc.

Sheila Muirenn
01-10-2011, 08:56 PM
Re. the quivering of the overtaxed muscles:

Isn't that due to the muscle fibers breaking down? Later, they repair themselves by laying down new fibers. If the muscle is worked a lot, they overcompensate and add extra fibers. Over time that's how a muscle gets larger and stronger.

Same things happen in bone. If you walk a lot or use certain limbs (or bones) a lot, the bone can actually get somewhat larger or stronger in that area. Hence, this is how forensic archaeologists can hypothesize/determine, from skeletal remains, if a person was a horseback rider (large femurs) or a weaver or archer (large upper arm bones or humerus), or a gladiator (larger upper body/bone structure) and etc. etc.

Muscle fiber break-down is more due to Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness, or DOMS. Scroll to last couple of paragraphs.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-does-lactic-acid-buil

The shaking hands are more likely due to lactic acid build-up, (earlier paragraphs from above link), and fuel depletion (below link).

Fuel Depletion during exercise: ie, 'bonking.'
http://www.sagewoodwellness.com/Doc0006.htm

The order is:

During exercise: fuel depletion leads to decrease in glucose and glycogen breakdown. Which leads to lactic acid build-up, and in more extreme cases inability to continue.

Post exercise or more than 24 hours later, delayed onset muscle soreness due to eccentric muscle contractions (precise cause still unknown).

Also, protein (and magnesium and calcium if memory serves) during exercise helps maintain muscle integrity, and speeds repairs if ingested afterwards, especially if within the first 1/2 hour. I've also read with the first hour. My experience says within the first half hour though.

To avoid glycogen depletion, decreased energy, and muscle soreness: consume carbs, protein, magnesium, and calcium during exercise.

And don't attempt a fitness output that the body has not worked to achieve through time and perserverence.

Donohue
03-05-2011, 02:15 AM
Coming out of lurkdom to comment. Sorry in advance if I misunderstand your question. If your character is really into working out and training, he(she) would not wait 90 minutes after a workout to get food in to their system. There is a window of time (some say 30 minutes, some say 60) where glycogen replacement in the muscle is optimized. If I workout hard there is no way I can wait 90 minutes to eat. I go home and make something before I even take a shower due to being starving AND knowing I want to feed my body what it needs in that small window of time.

latourdumoine
03-19-2011, 02:52 AM
Sorry guys, internet broke down, so couldn't get online for a long time. So, without further delay . . .

Re. the quivering of the overtaxed muscles:

Isn't that due to the muscle fibers breaking down? Later, they repair themselves by laying down new fibers. If the muscle is worked a lot, they overcompensate and add extra fibers. Over time that's how a muscle gets larger and stronger.

Same things happen in bone. If you walk a lot or use certain limbs (or bones) a lot, the bone can actually get somewhat larger or stronger in that area. Hence, this is how forensic archaeologists can hypothesize/determine, from skeletal remains, if a person was a horseback rider (large femurs) or a weaver or archer (large upper arm bones or humerus), or a gladiator (larger upper body/bone structure) and etc. etc.

yeah, I remember reading that somewhere as well about the forensics. And that just gave me a whole new idea. Thanks ;)




To avoid glycogen depletion, decreased energy, and muscle soreness: consume carbs, protein, magnesium, and calcium during exercise.

And don't attempt a fitness output that the body has not worked to achieve through time and perserverence.

Thanks so much for the info. A lot of stuff in there I forgot about, or wasn't thinking of.


Coming out of lurkdom to comment. Sorry in advance if I misunderstand your question. If your character is really into working out and training, he(she) would not wait 90 minutes after a workout to get food in to their system. There is a window of time (some say 30 minutes, some say 60) where glycogen replacement in the muscle is optimized. If I workout hard there is no way I can wait 90 minutes to eat. I go home and make something before I even take a shower due to being starving AND knowing I want to feed my body what it needs in that small window of time.
That's how I wanted to set it up, that everyone knows he's very much aware of what he's doing, so the character he's talking to knows that he's trying to cover up the fact that he's really shaking because he's scared, and not - as he claims - because he hasn't eaten. The last thing he wants is for the other character to see how scared he is, but at the same time he wants her to know, hence the "semi-plausible" lie. So based on what you guys said, I think it could actually work.

Kluver
08-12-2011, 02:15 PM
For it is very tough to go for the exercise with empty stomach, I am trying to loss
weight but never go for this routine because me energy level is very low.