Queer Beliefs

Gale Haut · Dec 14, 2010

I'd like to know how the members of the community (who are willing to discuss it) feel about religion and spirituality.

Do you have a label? How do you defend your religious beliefs against dissenters? Etc.

(Please keep it as drama free as possible and don't attack other people's personal beliefs--though, there's nothing wrong with discussing them.)

Caitlin Black · Dec 15, 2010

I voted atheist, though I switch between atheism and Paganism, depending on my mood and my situation at the time.

When I try to reconcile these 2 very different approaches, I usually wind up thinking, "I don't believe in any of the stories of creation other than the Big Bang. But I do believe the mind is capable of magic. I don't believe in the gods, but I do believe that they represent ideals of humanity, and should be studied for our own sakes, etc, etc."

I don't defend my religious views against others. I used to, on occasion, but it was always like banging my head against the wall, whether I was defending Paganism back in the days when I did believe in the Pagan gods, or defending atheism more recently.

I much prefer to avoid religious conversation unless I know I'm talking to an atheist or a Pagan, and then I'll happily offer up my own views of my attempts at reconciliation between the 2, but generally agree with who I'm talking to on nitty-gritty things (which, to be honest, are rarely something I find important).

Why do you ask anyway? Is this for a novel?

darkprincealain · Dec 15, 2010

I'm a Buddhist, but I borrow from the Tibetan and Theravadan traditions of Buddhism where it seems helpful. As near as I can tell, that puts me in the religious but not spiritual category.

Wayne K · Dec 15, 2010

I'm a free agent. I respect all religions. I've read the bible and koran, and the book of mormon. I've been to mosques, temples, churches and pagan rituals. Pagans and Wiccans saved my life. The pagan was a jew and the wiccan was a catholic. It gets pretty confusing.

I was drunk a lot of the time, so I didn't learn as much as I should have from witches and pagans and wiccans. They treated the best of the bunch, so I'm leaning their way

Of the big three, I'd prefer the one that lets go of the archaic way of thinking about homosexuals.

citymouse · Dec 15, 2010

I'm a baptized RC and my religious experience within the RCC is extensive. When I think of worship I visualize RC rites. That said, I view the world outside my space, in a live and let live way.
People who disagree with my view of creation or its author are free to do so. I neither defend against opposing views nor do I attack them.

Now I'll throw the proverbial brick through my own window. Over the years I've grown more and more attracted to the Buddhist position that Buddhism judges acts, including sexual acts, primarily by the intention (cetana) behind them and the effect they have.
A sexual act motivated by love, mutuality and the desire to give and share would be judged positive no matter what the gender of the two persons involved. Therefore, homosexuality as such is not considered immoral in Buddhism or against the third precept.

Sounds good to me!
C

Nya RAyne · Dec 15, 2010

I'm a free agent, but I tend to lean more into the Buddism realm.

Diana Hignutt · Dec 15, 2010

I am a student of the universe and of the nature of reality. I picked spiritual, but I do (also) do a little atheism on the side. I imagine everything as an aware universe becoming universally aware. I like the mystical equation that 0 = 1 = infinity. I study magick, mysticism and fringe science with equal relish.

I have been on either side of religious debate taking either the athiest position or the spiritual one. I have a less than favorable view of organized religion, which I believe to be primarily a control structure more than anything else.

Mara · Dec 15, 2010

I'm basically Unitarian-Universalist with a strong Christian influence. I try not to respond to haters these days, and I don't generally try to convert others to my way of thinking.

Kitty Pryde · Dec 15, 2010

I'm a reform jew. I don't defend my beliefs to other people because it makes no difference to me what they believe or what they think about my beliefs. My dad is a big time atheist but we never debate or argue over this issue and it's really not a big deal between us.

Reform judaism is pretty completely gay-friendly, fully inclusive and performing religious union ceremonies/weddings/whatever you want to call it for same-sex couples. I also belong to an LGBTQ-focused synagogue with a lesbian rabbi. It's a really awesome community. We have straight members too, though they are in the minority

Gale Haut · Dec 15, 2010

Cliff Face said:
Why do you ask anyway? Is this for a novel?

It's just what was on my mind. Although, in my YA novel, one of the lgbt characters greatly struggles with his religious background. I find myself deleting more than I write b/c it tends to become too heavy handed at times. And of course it was something I struggled with when I was younger, raised by a Southern Baptist pastor. In the last year I've had to defend the idea of a gay Christian more times than I can count on my fingers--event though, I don't even know what I am.

BTW, Sorry I forgot to add Pagan/Neo-Pagan to the list of options.

Kitty Pryde · Dec 15, 2010

Timmy, have you read The God Box, Evil?, and The Less-Dead? They're all really good YA novels about religious Christian kids trying to reconcile their faith with their conviction that it's okay to be gay. I think about half of The God Box is pure discussion of various bible verses used to condemn homosexuality. To some extent I think a message like that needs to be a bit heavy handed. I think the experience of these characters are pretty common (gay kid heavily involved in an anti-gay fundamentalist church), and struggling kids need the issues spelled out for them, not just vague suggestions or half explanations.

Gale Haut · Dec 15, 2010

Thanks for the recs Kitty Pride. I went ahead and bought The God Box ebook. I'm reading it now.

Actually you make a really good point about the heavy handedness that's forcing me to rethink my WIP. Thanks for that too.

DancingMaenid · Dec 15, 2010

I voted agnostic.

I was raised Roman Catholic. By the time I reached adolescence, I realized I didn't really believe in it. I was very active in my church, but it was more because I liked the community of people and because I found the ritual meaningful on some level. I chose to receive my confirmation, but now I regret that, because I knew at the time that it wasn't the right choice for me. I left the church completely soon afterward, and no longer regard myself as Catholic at all.

As a whole, I respect religion when it's not being used to hurt people. I've studied different faiths a good deal, particularly Judaism, Paganism, Wicca, and Buddhism, and I feel that what I've learned has definitely enriched my life. I've also used occult practices like divination and Tarot reading for spiritual purposes, though I'm not sure if I literally believe in magic. I have no intention of formally joining a new faith, though. I don't think I can commit myself to one, especially when I have so many doubts.

It bothered me when I first started to question the existence of God. I felt like I was doing something wrong. But now I'm okay with it. I'm open to the possibility of a higher power, and the afterlife. I like to think that there is something. But I don't know, and I'm comfortable with that doubt. Besides, I don't think I'd want to worship any deity that demanded blind faith from me.

I don't feel any need to defend my experiences or beliefs.

Gale Haut · Dec 15, 2010

It's great to those who have come to the point where they can shrug it off and just say that they don't care what people think, or they have no need to defend themselves. But I think that at some point most people do feel a need before they can develop those very mature safeguards. That's more where I'm at in terms of this WIP. (Sorry I hadn't realized the underlying motivation for this thread until Kitty challenged it.)

I'd like to pose another question. Would a character whose voice is largely dependent upon his confusion with his religious background be too unbearable to read? Would you want to stick with him and see how he figures things out?

Here's an example in the form of a snippet:

The Haunting of a Teenage Drag Queen said:
Frank cusses a lot, but that's normal I guess. I cuss a lot too when I'm with the guys.
..........The Bible talks about not cussing. Take Ephesians, which says, "Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers."
..........That verse really confuses the shit out of me. Cursing isn't going to "impart grace to the hearers," but neither does ninety percent of everything else that people say to each other every day. It seems like if you're going to take that seriously, then smalltalk is a sin, banter is a sin, exchanging pleasantries is a sin. And now all of a sudden you can't even say to the grocery clerk "Nice weather we're having today" without God riding your ass for it.

Does his perspective intrigue you or annoy you?

I'm asking because this is the second of three MC's in the work and my beta reader really wants me to cut him, not b/c his voice is weak, but because she HATES him. lol

Mara · Dec 15, 2010

Timmy:
I like that sample you gave, and would want to read about the character. On the other hand, I went to a fringe conservative church for two years as a teenager, and I've had to resist the temptation to include heavy-handed tangents about the subject in my own works, so I might not be the best person to ask.

backslashbaby · Dec 15, 2010

I'm predominantly Moravian (from a Moravian town); check out the motto:

Since the earliest days of the Moravian Church in the 15th century we have lived in the spirit of the motto "In essentials unity; in non-essentials, liberty; and in all things love."

I love that!

I'm from a long line of Moravians, Quakers, and Native Americans, and I'm not big on religions that belabor the picky details of things.

I love many other religions. I don't know that I agree with the total teachings of any one, but what's new about that in life, eh ?

BenPanced · Dec 15, 2010

Mara said:
I'm basically Unitarian-Universalist with a strong Christian influence. I try not to respond to haters these days, and I don't generally try to convert others to my way of thinking.

^^^This. Born and raised Catholic, I left the church around the time I first came out. I've never been able to reconcile being gay with being Catholic.

DancingMaenid · Dec 15, 2010

To be honest, it can be hard for me to relate to characters who are in conflict regarding their faith. Maybe six years ago, I would have related very well. Today, I'm so comfortable with how my life has gone in this regard, and it's hard for me to see it as such a big deal anymore. So it takes a little effort on my part to relate to why someone would find this experience difficult.

But if I had to be able to automatically relate to a character and their concerns, I would miss out on a lot of great books and viewpoints. I would definitely give the book and character a chance, and I'd want to get a sense for why this issue matters to him, and what's at stake. And for what it's worth, I enjoyed The God Box.

In any case, you can't attract everyone. While the topic may not be a huge draw for me, there are a lot of people who will find it interesting and relate very well.

Deleted member 42 · Dec 15, 2010

Timmy said:
Thanks for the recs Kitty Pride. I went ahead and bought The God Box ebook. I'm reading it now.

Actually you make a really good point about the heavy handedness that's forcing me to rethink my WIP. Thanks for that too.

If you carefully read the Bible, especially if you read it in Hebrew and Greek--the Bible doesn't actually say what many people, out of ignorance, think it says.

The habit of picking-and-choosing texts to quote out of context, both textually and historically, doesn't help.

Note as well that there are people/characters in the Bible portrayed in a positive light who seem to be involved in same-sex relationships.

To wit: David and Jonathan, and Ruth and Naomi. There are others.

The Hebrew discussion of the close ties between the women borrows language used in marriage contracts of the time, as well as centuries later.

Kitty Pryde · Dec 15, 2010

Timmy said:
I'd like to pose another question. Would a character whose voice is largely dependent upon his confusion with his religious background be too unbearable to read? Would you want to stick with him and see how he figures things out?

Here's an example in the form of a snippet:

Does his perspective intrigue you or annoy you?

I'm asking because this is the second of three MC's in the work and my beta reader really wants me to cut him, not b/c his voice is weak, but because she HATES him. lol

I wouldn't say I'm intrigued, but he sounds like a real kid with real conflict, with a humorous streak (like the fact that a biblical injunction against swearing "confuses the shit out of" him. I don't think he's annoying. I think it's okay for a character to spend time agonizing over the 'rules' of his religion, as long as he is also dealing with more universal concerns (like overly strict parents, conflicts with friends, peer pressure, trouble keeping a girl/boyfriend, solving a mystery, figuring out identity, etc.).

Questions of following religious laws are, plot-wise, identical to questions of conforming to peer pressure, facing overly fascist school rules, struggling against an oppressive government, fighting for freedom from parental tyranny--they're all about a kid becoming an adult and trying to choose the good aspects from her community while rejecting the bad ones. Nearly all YA novels are about this subject.

So there's nothing wrong with addressing these issues seriously, as long as you can keep it somewhat relatable to a broader audience.

Gale Haut · Dec 15, 2010

Medievalist said:
If you carefully read the Bible, especially if you read it in Hebrew and Greek--the Bible doesn't actually say what many people, out of ignorance, think it says.

The habit of picking-and-choosing texts to quote out of context, both textually and historically, doesn't help.

Note as well that there are people/characters in the Bible portrayed in a positive light who seem to be involved in same-sex relationships.

To wit: David and Jonathan, and Ruth and Naomi. There are others.

The Hebrew discussion of the close ties between the women borrows language used in marriage contracts of the time, as well as centuries later.

I'd love to pick your brain on this topic, because I have read a little about the slanted translation of the bible in favor of heteronormativity. But I have not heard about the same-sex relationships that have been masked by these translations. Are there any relationships that go beyond speculation or have stronger textual support than "seems to indicate"?

Hmm... Is that what inspired them to characterize Jonathan as a gay man in Kings (a series I sorely miss).

If anyone could direct me towards some more good reads on this (fiction/nonfiction), I'd really appreciate it.

Kitty Pryde · Dec 15, 2010

I think the wikipedia article on D&J is not bad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_and_Jonathan Somewhere I recently saw an M/M romance that was retelling the David and Jonathan story in a different time period. Oh, this was it: http://www.perseusbooksgroup.com/runningpress/book_detail.jsp?isbn=0762435739

It would be cool if there was a novel based on the Book of Ruth, but it's kind of an unusual story in that Ruth and Naomi are not in the same generation, Ruth is Naomi's daughter in law. I think it's a sweet story, but a woman falling for her MIL is not exactly celebrated. Ruth is also a prominent converted Jew; many women who convert to Judaism take the Hebrew name "Ruth".

Deleted member 42 · Dec 15, 2010

There's a decent take on the question of same-sex relationships in the bible at Religious Tolerance.org.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm

AyJay · Dec 15, 2010

Not sure if you are familiar with the book (or that it's totally relevant to your question) but you might want to check out John Boswell's Same Sex Unions in Pre Modern Europe.

I haven't read the book, but it's been cited in a number of articles I've read re. homosexuality and religion. Boswell researched m/m "marriages" that were condoned by the early Catholic church and later covered up due to the more recent phenomenon of homosexual censure (per his thesis).

This stuff interests me to the extent that I like good conspiracy stories (non-fiction or fiction) and the exposure of hypocrisy. I was raised as a very low-key Lutheran (Xmas and Easter services) and gravitated toward atheism/secular humanism in my young adulthood. I never felt a spiritual struggle coming out as gay, and it's something I don't fully understand. Not that I'm unsympathetic to those who are coming out within religious families/communities or think less of them for their beliefs. It just never jibed for me.

Deleted member 42 · Dec 15, 2010

AyJay said:
Not sure if you are familiar with the book (or that it's totally relevant to your question) but you might want to check out John Boswell's Same Sex Unions in Pre Modern Europe..

It's a decent book. It's already been augmented by a book for East Asia, and the Near East, but damned if I can remember the author or the title . . . I think it was a Palgrave Macmillan title, in June.

Spent 20 minutes looking, and couldn't find it.

Queer Beliefs

I am...

Religious

Spiritual

Atheist

Agnostic

Other

waxing digital artistic

Wild one

fantasy dweller

On the verge of greatness

Very Tired

Clever User Title

i luv you giant bear statue

waxing digital artistic

i luv you giant bear statue

waxing digital artistic

New kid...seven years ago!

waxing digital artistic

Clever User Title

~~~~*~~~~

THE BLUEBERRY QUEEN OF HADES (he/him)

New kid...seven years ago!

Deleted member 42

i luv you giant bear statue

waxing digital artistic

i luv you giant bear statue

Deleted member 42

Luv's Conscript

Deleted member 42

*