Advice on revision?

Magna,

The problem I had with revision was that if this was the point at which to ask myself the hard questions, what were they? Sometimes I'd remember to check for redundant adverbs, and forget to watch the plot. Often local libraries have books on revision - of varying usefulness. Or you can take the free and useful advice of this community and pop over to 'share your work', scroll down and read the sticky posting, 'the all inclusive critique sheet'. It's useful for putting yourself in an editor's shoes. Hope that helps,

Jenny

Magna said:

I haven't been writing for very long; just over a year now I think. I've completed a few short stories now, and a couple of pieces approaching novella length. I haven't sent anything off or publication yet because I've been finding revision difficult.

I find it to be a grueling process, often more of a hinderence because I keep adding when I should be removing.

I know that redrafting is of fundamental importance if I want to advance with my writing, so I feel it's a skill I should urgently learn.

Can anyone offer me some advice?

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Be patient Magan. In terms of learnig to craft a story and more importantly, find your writing voice, a year isn't a very long time. I wouldn't worry about adding things at this point in your revision process. You are probably still searching for the themes and or tone of your work. Or perhaps you are finding ploting element that you feel you need to add. It's all good

As you begin to search out specific markets for your work, you can start to worry about revision work with regard to craft. When that time comes, one quick hint I can give you to help you disengage from your story and stick to the technical aspects of your story is . . . start your revision work at the end of the piece, and work your way to the beginning of the story. That technique can help in the way of removing yourself from the content of your piece and tighten your focus on the nuts & bolts of what you have written.

Good luck

Two pieces of advice:

1. Let the story sit for at least a week before trying to revise.
2. When revising, read each sentence out loud. This will force you to see the words on the page over the words in your head. Also, you'll be able to catch more errors and confusing sentence structures this way.

Although I hate going into revision, I feel proud that my work is polished and I feel better overall about the stories after I am done. I try to use the outcome to push me on...

revision

My first advice would be to let each story go two weeks to a month without looking at it. Then print the story out and do the revision with a pencil. The temptation to add is too great on the computer. Print it out, take a pencil, and start crossing out and deleting. Cut a minimum of ten percent from each story.

At this point see where the story stands. If you need to, go thrugh this same procedure again.

The problem with novice writers seeking advice is that so many different opinions get added to the mix and it can be difficult to find what to do.

Revision is necessary and it is a good idea to let a work sit for at least a week if not longer. Suggesting to cut ten percent - when the poster hasn't even seen the work - is unneccessary advice. Your work may need cutting but it's not a determination that someone who has not read your MS can make with any authority.

Read through the story aloud. See where it flows and where it hangs up. Look for redundant words and information given more than once. Cut anything that does not add to or advance the story. Hone and polish it but don't overdo it. When bombarded with advice, many new writers get confused and lose their sense of what is right in their own work. Don't destroy a manuscript based on someone's advice - including mine.

Knowing what and when to cut becomes a gut instinct after practice.

cutting

Of course I can tell a writer to cut ten percent with authority. It's not only excellent advice, it's standard advice, given by every good writer, editor, and instructor out there. The rule reads "Final draft equals first draft minus ten percent."

New writers nearly always overwrite. So do most pros. But with new writers it's a matter of course. The wisest, smartest thing any new writer, and 99% of pro writers, can do is make cutting ten percent the very first thing they do when revising. If not, they may sell a story here and there to small magazines, but they won't be very good stories, and they won't sell to top magazines.

New writers do get confused, which is why I think most would benefit greatly by avoiding forum advice and going straight to pro writers and editors. But what can you do?

I've seen thousands and thousands of stories by new writers in slush piles and in workshops, and I've discussed the matter with bunch of editors and other writers, and I absolutely can speak with authority when I say cutting ten percent, minimum, is the smartest thing any new writer, and most pro writers, can do as a first step toward revision.

Most pro writers, of course, don't have to be told this. They do it automatically, knowing the story will be improved, flow will be improved, and the story will stand a much greater chance of selling. And will do so without the need of an editor chopping it down for them. Pro writers and editors are the ones who came up with the "Final draft equals first draft minus ten percent rule." It's not a rule I invented, but it's one smart new writers follow, and one pro writers usually live by.

If you want to sell stories on a routine basis to good magazines, if you want to write the best short stories possible, then make cutting ten percent the number one priority in the revision process.

I agree no one should destroy a story from any advice, including mine, but no one has ever destroyed a story by cutting ten percent during the revision process. Many writers have written boring stories, or stories that needed severe editing, from failing to do this, but no story I've ever seen from a new writer was harmed by cutting ten percent during revision.

You're darned right I can speak with authority on this issue.

James,

More and more, lately, I've been noticing that your comments have been refracted through some intensely bitter lens. Are you having personal problems?

Excuse my directness, but it seems as if you can't say a single thing these days w/out your ego popping up, skewing what you're trying to say almost to the point that, to me, you're more or less 'helping' people to prove to them and yourself that you know what you're doing -- but you're not actually concerned about helping.

Hence your inability to not argue.

...

I'm just sayin'.

Ditto what trumancoyote says. I also detect a rather bitter tone in James' posts not only here but on at least one other writer's forum. His recent posts have not been in the spirit of helping or sharing information or even offering advice but seem to be more about pulling rank.

play nice. i'd hate to move a useful thread down to the take it outside board.

Editing tips

Hey, don't get personal everyone. I've bumped head on into Mr Ritchie's opinions before but found that he is quite open to allowing other people their opinions even though he does not agree with them.

In the case of cutting ten per cent for most writers - new or old - it is a fact that their story will be a helluva a lot better for pruning. After all we are talking about short stories here where every word must work hard and count towards the final effect.

It is also a fact that even where I come from, (I am not an American) the ten percent rule is common currency among writers.

Magna, I think what you need is to find some other writers to share your work with. Listen to their comments, learn to accept them without getting precious about your story, and in return you do the reading and critiquing of their writing. You will learn an awful lot about the structure of a short story this way and also about what it takes to be a writer. For some reason it is so much easier to see the faults in other's work than in your own but sharing your work will help you learn to spot the major flaws.

There are two simple questions you can ask yourself after re-reading your story, Magna, that might help you.

The first is: Whose story is it?

Often you find that what you thought was character A's story is not in fact so and you need to rewrite using the correct character's point of view.

The second is: What are you trying to say?

If you started out writing a comedy about your character's crazy neighbour but find your story ends up with your character feeling sorry for the poor soul then the story will not 'read right' until you decided whether this is comedy or tragedy and rewrite accordingly.

Another angle to take, besides what's been mentioned, is to pretend someone else wrote the story you're editing.

I think you have to be crazy to be a good short story writer. FIrst, you write your story as you see it in your mind. then you have to turn into someone else when you do the second draft, someone who is very critical of the writer of the first draft. I think Bradbury said something along the lines of "a good writer removes his intellect from a story". I agree with that. Take yourself, and all the extra beautiful stuff you feel compelled to say, out of the story. Let the story surface instead of your interpretation of it. Don't know if that helps. I've learned to get better by cutting the fat.

Cut the fat, sure, if your story is overweight to begin with. The fat might be 10% or 30% or 50%, depending. Having copy-edited for years before writing anything of the kind we're talking about, I didn't have that problem. I sold a piece of fiction 19 words long. It needed every word.

cut

reph said:

Cut the fat, sure, if your story is overweight to begin with. The fat might be 10% or 30% or 50%, depending. Having copy-edited for years before writing anything of the kind we're talking about, I didn't have that problem. I sold a piece of fiction 19 words long. It needed every word.

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It's been my experience that, copy editors aside, even most stories of 19 words can use a 10% cut. If the first draft is only 21 words, and you tighten by cutting two, you have your 10% cut.

The shortest story I've ever sold was 100 words on the nose, but the first draft was almost two hundred.

There are putter inners and taker outers, but I've yet to meet a new writer who couldn't benefit greatly by a 10% cut across the board. Most new writers can cut 20% from the opening and have a much better story.

As regards the 10% thing, Stephen King mentions it in his book "On Writing." He said the formula told him was:

First draft = second draft - 10%

So, he seems to have done all right by it.

Stephen King also says in his book On Writing,


"You don't NEED writing classes or seminars more than you this or any other book on writing. Faulkner learned his trade while working in the Oxford, Mississippi post office. Other writers have learned the basics while serving in the Navy, working in steel mills, or doing time in America's finer crossbar hotels. I learned the most valuable (and commercial) part of my life's work while washing motel sheets and restaurant tablecloths at the New Franklin Laundry in Bangor."

King also says in another portion of the book:

I'm often asked if the beginning writer of fiction can benefit from writing classes or seminars. The people who ask are, all too often, looking for a magic bullet or a secret ingredient or possibly Dumbo's magic feather, none of which can be found in the classrooms or at writing retreats, no matter how enticing the brochures may be. As for myself, I'm doubtful about writing classes, but not entirely against them."

And, yes, he does say to cut 10%. What he calls the Rewrite Formula dates back to a comment he received from an editor in 1966. King also mentions that he is a natural putter-inner, or i.e. that he puts too much into what he writes so some has to come out.

All writers write in a different way. What works for Stephen King may work for a writer here or it may not. What is important is not following snippets of advice but as King admonishes again and again in the book that a writer must write and read, learning from both activities.

My favorite lines from On Writing are those about the magic bullet or Dumbo's magic feather because in more than twenty years at this craft, I find increasing numbers of writers and would-be writers who seek that elusive element, that secret key to writing that doesn't exist. It's the Fountain of Youth that Ponce de Leon sought, it's the pot of gold under the rainbow, and it's the Wizard of Oz. There's no magic - just a man behind the curtain.

Here are some suggestions I give my students:

It takes time (and a lot of reading and studying) to be able to tell good prose from bad. If you can't tell how good your prose is, pay a professional (like myself) to aid your rewrite.

Don't take anyone's advice unless they can tell you (1) what works and what doesn't, (2) why it does or doesn't, and (3) how to fix it. In order to benefit from this tip, you'll need to know the purpose behind every chapter, scene, and sentence - the equivalent of the art world's "What's the meaning of this line?"

Don't rewrite until you're ready. For someone who has only been writing for a year, I would say don't rewrite anything for at least another year. During that year you will learn a great deal about writing. Struggling over old work when you don't know what you're doing only leads to frustration and discouragement. A constant flow of new material will keep you awake and interested.

johnnysannie said:

Stephen King also says in his book On Writing,


"You don't NEED writing classes or seminars more than you this or any other book on writing. Faulkner learned his trade while working in the Oxford, Mississippi post office. Other writers have learned the basics while serving in the Navy, working in steel mills, or doing time in America's finer crossbar hotels. I learned the most valuable (and commercial) part of my life's work while washing motel sheets and restaurant tablecloths at the New Franklin Laundry in Bangor."

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The major training tool all of these writers shared was reading a LOT of quality literature while they learned their craft. It has been said many times but it cannot be stressed enough -- a good writer has to be a good reader.

cattywampus said:

Here are some suggestions I give my students:

It takes time (and a lot of reading and studying) to be able to tell good prose from bad. If you can't tell how good your prose is, pay a professional (like myself) to aid your rewrite.

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Sorry, but I don't think this is very good advice. If you can't tell if your prose is good or bad, have a dispassionate expert tell you -- and then figure out how to make it better. Start by becoming a better reader. If you still don't know how to improve your prose, than take a class on the fundamentals of writing, or join a writer's group (it is often easier to see mistakes in other people's work). But I couldn't in good conscience recommend to any novice writer (somebody who can't tell how bad their prose is) to pay me to help them re-write a story which, most likely, is flawed fundamentally. Now, an established or seasoned writer who wants to pay me to be an editor, fine. I have done this, happily, many times. Perhaps this is just me, but I feel funny about taking money from a novice.

The most difficult thing for any novice to do is to edit his own work, mainly because he doesn't know what he is looking for or what to put in or take out or change, and most importantly - why.

Some writers do instinctively know. Others who are widely read may also know or have learned from extensive reading. But if one doesn't know what one is looking for or doing through the revision process, one has no choice but to read books on technique or seek advice from reputable sources. I don't specify where because anywhere no doubt has both good and bad sides to it. Critique groups, writing groups, professionals etc., etc.
Best of all - maybe here, or a friend who has more experience.

King needs to cut 20%, maybe 25%.

(Disclaimer: I haven't read his book.)

Magna, see if you can find some examples of stories that show the differing drafts, and the changes made during revision. I know some of this material is available, but I'm too lazy to search it out for you.

Learning anything can be a slog at first. Keep at it. The better you become at revision, the better your first drafts will be. Your revisions will get easier and easier.

The best advice I can offer is to keep putting your work in a drawer for a month or so between drafts.

Good luck.

HConn said:

The best advice I can offer is to keep putting your work in a drawer for a month or so between drafts.

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I agree. Not a week, but at least a month. Always reread out loud.

i don't think it's a bad idea to pay a professional to help with a re-write so long as the professional is helping teach how to revise at the same time. but to simply pay for a re-write won't help you learn how to do it.

Yes, in retrospect I was probably misinterpreting cattywampus's suggestion. I just recoil at the thought of making money off some poor kid's manuscript that is never going to be published anyway. But using it as a teaching tool is obviously a good idea.