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Elle
12-13-2010, 10:18 PM
1. If a client was being particularly rude towards a psychologist for the sheer hell of it, would it be plausible for the psychologist to ask the client to leave?

2. Is there any way for security guards not to be around in a club? I want a certain near-fight scene to go down in a club. However, it seems like the security guard would stop it before it got any worse.

Any input would be helpful. I'm just trying to make this believable.

Kaiser-Kun
12-13-2010, 10:36 PM
1.- Of course. Altough I can't think why a patient would book and pay for the psychologists time just to insult him. But yes, like any business, the owner has the right to kick out rude customers. However, if the psychologist is a newbie, he could try to talk with the rude person before. An experienced one would recognize right away if the customer is just looking for trouble and wouldn't fall for it.

I knew a newbie psychologist, a girl making her practice in a jail, phoned me asking me what to do because the patient (a recluse) attacked her and was trying to burst his way into her room. (My advice: "RUN!") :D

Also, most psychology bashers are too cowardly to talk their mind in front of a real psychologist. A guy who deliberately books and pays a session just to be rude to a psychologist seems to me like a very desperate call for help.

lbender
12-13-2010, 11:01 PM
Not every client that goes to a psychologist is there at their own choice. The court can order psychiatric care. Also, minors can be sent by their parents or guardians. there's a difference between the therapist being attacked...obviously a safety issue... and the patient being rude. That could easily be a defense mechanism by somebody who doesn't want to be there.

If you want to see somewhat of a dramatization of this, see the movie 'Good Will Hunting'.

What the psychologist does will depend on their interpretation of the behavior and what they feel they can do.

Kaiser-Kun
12-13-2010, 11:14 PM
Not every client that goes to a psychologist is there at their own choice. The court can order psychiatric care. Also, minors can be sent by their parents or guardians. there's a difference between the therapist being attacked...obviously a safety issue... and the patient being rude. That could easily be a defense mechanism by somebody who doesn't want to be there.

If you want to see somewhat of a dramatization of this, see the movie 'Good Will Hunting'.

What the psychologist does will depend on their interpretation of the behavior and what they feel they can do.

You're right about those who are forced to go, I forgot. :D

I've had little experience with "forced" patients. The minors who have been forced to talk to me explained the situation (in both cases the teacher sent them to me because they wanted an excuse to get them out of the classroom), but they weren't rude.

lbender
12-13-2010, 11:32 PM
Oh, I never said anything about your second question. I have very little experience with bouncers in clubs, but I imagine it's much like anything else - good ones and bad ones. Some will go nuts over little stuff, some will ignore things that they should be paying attention to.

You're right that good guards or bouncers won't let things get out of hand, though.

shadowwalker
12-14-2010, 12:13 AM
I think psychologists are quite used to clients being rude - after all, one of the reasons they are there to begin with is because of frustrations, problems dealing with their emotions, etc. The good (experienced) psychologist will recognize when the client is blowing off steam and when they're being aggressive. Either way, they'll work with it to a point - and if they can't steer the client into more productive directions, will end the session.

Elle
12-14-2010, 01:09 AM
Ok. Hm. The psychologist issue can be dealt with then. I think I'm going to find a creative way to temporarily distract the security guard. Thanks guys.

RJK
12-14-2010, 01:10 AM
Build your scene around Shadowwalker's reply. It sounds the most realistic.

Your bouncer could be off taking a break, chatting up a girl, or doing a hundred other things besides what he's supposed to be doing. Just make it sound reasonable. There are also the big teddy bears. they look big and mean, but they're afraid of their own shadow. Those are the guys who never seem to be around when you need them.

Hallen
12-14-2010, 01:16 AM
Ok. Hm. The psychologist issue can be dealt with then. I think I'm going to find a creative way to temporarily distract the security guard. Thanks guys.

It also depends on the type of "club" they are in and where it is. I've been in many bars that have no such thing as a bouncer in the first place. There's the bartender, the owner (usually in the back room), and a waiter or two. That's it.

Then again, I've been in clubs in Vegas where the bouncers looked like the offensive linemen from the Pittsburgh Steelers. Yeah, I wouldn't be starting a fight there.

mtrenteseau
12-14-2010, 02:45 AM
1. If a client was being particularly rude towards a psychologist for the sheer hell of it, would it be plausible for the psychologist to ask the client to leave?

Even Bob Hartley, who was a very reserved, cerebral psychologist, would ask people to leave if they were getting too confrontational.

If the patient is being defensive, then the therapist may try to steer the conversation to something more productive. But if the conversation is disruptive or obstructive, the therapist will probably tell the patient to come back later. I seem to recall there was a lot of this in "Equus."


2. Is there any way for security guards not to be around in a club? I want a certain near-fight scene to go down in a club. However, it seems like the security guard would stop it before it got any worse.

One angle not considered yet is that the person starting the fight may be friends with the security, or have some sort of authority himself. The staff will leave him to do whatever he wants.

If the fight is quiet enough, the bouncers might not be alerted in a noisy club (think of the Oktoberfest scene in the Pink Panther movie).

It's also possible that the club is known to host illegal activity (drugs, prostitution, money laundering), and the security is focused on keeping out undesirable people rather than monitoring the behavior of people already inside.

RichardLeon
12-14-2010, 03:04 AM
1. Psychologists are not psychotherapists are not psychiatrists.

Psychologists are likely to do psychometric testing and profiling or research into brain and mind science. If they're not researchers they're often associated with corporate HR and training. Their background is academic psychology.

Psychotherapists do talk therapy/counselling and occasionally fluffier New Age therapies. They're usually state-licensed and work privately. Their background is in one of the many less formal therapeutic theories.

Some psychologists become psychotherapists, but many therapists have no background in academic psychology.

Psychiatrists are full MDs and do some combination of talk therapy and medical symptom management and/or improvement with prescription drugs, often in a hospital or medical practice.

2. Fights happen in clubs all the time. Bouncers and security can only do a limited amount no matter how big and how experienced they are, especially if it's an all-in gang fight. They might break up a one-to-one but they can't do much about anything bigger.

Giant Baby
12-14-2010, 04:02 AM
1. Psychologists are not psychotherapists are not psychiatrists.

Psychologists are likely to do psychometric testing and profiling or research into brain and mind science. If they're not researchers they're often associated with corporate HR and training. Their background is academic psychology.

Psychotherapists do talk therapy/counselling and occasionally fluffier New Age therapies. They're usually state-licensed and work privately. Their background is in one of the many less formal therapeutic theories.

Some psychologists become psychotherapists, but many therapists have no background in academic psychology.

Many psychologists are involved in research and acaedemia, sure, but not so such as to muddy up the OP's question. I work every day with psychologists who evaluate patients in the clinical setting and provide ongoing care. They're hardly rare birds. Honestly, much of the rest of your post confused me, but I'm easily confused.


1. If a client was being particularly rude towards a psychologist for the sheer hell of it, would it be plausible for the psychologist to ask the client to leave?

For the sheer hell of it? Depends on the psychologist's style, but probably. If your character's habit of doing negative things "for the sheer hell of it" was something they were working on, then perhaps not, but you've got a wide berth here.


2. Is there any way for security guards not to be around in a club? I want a certain near-fight scene to go down in a club. However, it seems like the security guard would stop it before it got any worse.

Any input would be helpful. I'm just trying to make this believable.
Could security already be dealing with another problem? Another fight or unruly behavior?

shadowwalker
12-14-2010, 04:15 AM
1. Psychologists are not psychotherapists are not psychiatrists.

Psychologists are likely to do psychometric testing and profiling or research into brain and mind science. If they're not researchers they're often associated with corporate HR and training. Their background is academic psychology.

Not all psychologists. There are clinical psychologists who deal directly with clients, not in research or corporate functions. Every specialty has specialties ;)

lbender
12-14-2010, 05:23 AM
Even Bob Hartley, who was a very reserved, cerebral psychologist, would ask people to leave if they were getting too confrontational.

I love Bob Newhart, who played that role, but I would never have asked him to treat anybody I cared about. I must admit, though, the end of his second series (the one in the Vermont inn) was the best ending of a series I've ever seen.

mtrenteseau
12-14-2010, 06:13 AM
I love Bob Newhart, who played that role, but I would never have asked him to treat anybody I cared about. I must admit, though, the end of his second series (the one in the Vermont inn) was the best ending of a series I've ever seen.

He was definitely of the school of therapy where one asked guiding questions and let the patient figure out their own problems.

I prefer the Dr. Laura method, where you come in knowing you need a swift kick in the pants and you get one.

Richard managed to combine both topics of this discussion - if he said things like that in front of a group of psychologists, he'd get a bar fight. :)

Psychologists, whether clinical or counseling, have Ph.D.s and have all the education, training, and experience needed to serve patients. Unless the patient has an attack of appendicitis during the session, they don't need a "full M.D." to do anything. In the states I'm familiar with, you have to be licensed to be a psychologist and see patients. In some jurisdications, psychologists can prescribe drugs; I don't know enough about the licensing process to decide if I like that idea or not.

Clinical and counseling psychologists see patients, conduct testing, and provide medical interpretations regarding their clients.

It's unfair and condescending to suggest that someone who's gone through a Ph.D. program to learn the workings of the human brain is somehow less competent to practice behavioral medicine than someone who went through a medical program and spent one rotation learning about the brain.

To provide more insight for the OP, there's a type of difficult patient that's known as the "yeah, but." Constructive advice from the doctor is always dismissed because it somehow isn't useful to the patient in their situation.

"Maybe you should quit smoking."
"Yeah, but then I'll start eating compulsively. Last time I tried to quit I gained twenty pounds."
"Maybe you should talk to your daughter about your suspicions regarding her drug use."
"Yeah, but we just don't communicate well. She already hates me."
"Maybe you should get the hell out of my office until you're ready to commit to something that will improve your life."
"Yeah, but this sofa is soooo comfy..."

AyJay
12-14-2010, 07:01 AM
A client being particularly rude for the sheer hell of it is a perfect reason for anyone in any profession to kick the client out.

When I was a practicing psychotherapist (my training is as a social worker, just to split hairs even more above), I only once kicked a client out of my office. He was mandated, and I wouldn't say he was being rude, threatening actually, for the sheer hell of it, but the fact that he didn't want to be there was definitely a factor with his aggression.

Generally, I'd say a client has to be pretty obviously dangerous, or have a history of wasting the therapy time, to get thrown out of the office. Like Shadow said, expressed anger toward the therapist is pretty common, so unless your psychologist is inexperienced or incompetent, she would know how to handle it constructively.

shadowwalker
12-14-2010, 07:06 AM
I prefer the Dr. Laura method, where you come in knowing you need a swift kick in the pants and you get one.

I would never recommend someone with psychological problems to an idiot like "Dr" Laura. But that's another discussion...

Georgina
12-14-2010, 12:52 PM
2. Is there any way for security guards not to be around in a club? I want a certain near-fight scene to go down in a club. However, it seems like the security guard would stop it before it got any worse.

Depending how clever you want your characters to be, how about staging a fake fight to draw the security guards' attention away? Most places only have a couple of guys on the door. If they're busy ejecting someone, you could get up to mischief inside the club.

You could also add some noise. I was once watching a band in a pub when a fight broke out. Because of the music, I had no idea anything was going on until I was nearly bowled over by two guys thrashing at each other.

Cheers.

mtrenteseau
12-14-2010, 04:22 PM
I would never recommend someone with psychological problems to an idiot like "Dr" Laura. But that's another discussion...

To be fair, Laura Schlessinger does have a Ph.D., but it's in physiology.

I'd never recommend someone to her either. Her style is only suited to people who seek her out on their own.

PinkAmy
12-15-2010, 03:00 PM
1. If a client was being particularly rude towards a psychologist for the sheer hell of it, would it be plausible for the psychologist to ask the client to leave?
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I don't know any psychologists who would ask a client to leave for rudeness, however if there are overtones of violence, that would be a different story. When clients are rude there's usually an underlying reason and I would want to probe more into transference (where the client projects feelings of someone, parent/boss/friend/child onto the therapist). If the client is just a rude person, I would want to explore how that's working for her in the outside world. Therapy is a microcosm of the clients life (macrocosm) so what goes on between the therapist and client is quite telling.