Small people using powerful firearms?

IanMorrison

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 31, 2008
Messages
152
Reaction score
2
Location
St. Albert, Alberta, Canada
In my story travellers will often carry large black powder rifles with them as a means of fending off extremely large and aggressive predators (this is a fantasy setting, and these critters are the size of a large horse). I'm thinking something akin to an elephant gun. Scarcity of resources in the setting dictates that these weapons and their ammunition are fairly rare.

Of my four main characters, my current plan is to make the marksman who will use this weapon be a small woman with a slight build. The rest of the crew is bigger and stronger, but two of them are novice shooters and the other's vision and shooting skills aren't nearly as good. My assumption is that having an expert marksman behind the weapon is more important than having her be able to carry it around easily.

What sorts of problems would this bring up for her? Is there a serious risk of her injuring herself when firing this weapon? Am I off-base in assuming that she'd be able to handle it at all?

Thanks!
 

GeorgeK

ever seeking
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
6,577
Reaction score
740
Leverage rules. Black powder weapons are heavy and realistically a small person is working against too much leverage to be able to aim steadily. Someone with stellar proprioception might be able to shoot from the hip and do better than a larger stronger person, but they are rare. Give her a tripod and I could buy it.
 

Drachen Jager

Professor of applied misanthropy
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 13, 2010
Messages
17,171
Reaction score
2,284
Location
Vancouver
A tripod, or something similar that one of the other team members can use to help support.

Makes me think of these guys, from Warhammer. Propping the weapon up is totally something another team member can do.
 

backslashbaby

~~~~*~~~~
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
12,635
Reaction score
1,603
Location
NC
How do folks shoot enormous guns without breaking a shoulder, I wonder? I'm no expert, clearly :), but that was the main thing about shooting rifles as a little girl. I actually propped it up on my shoulder and that solved both problems. I still go back to that by instinct sometimes :)

I couldn't hold a handgun steady -- too heavy out there in the air at my size.
 

Jean

New kid, but beat me hard
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
95
Reaction score
7
Location
State of Denial
What sorts of problems would this bring up for her? Is there a serious risk of her injuring herself when firing this weapon?

In long run, yes. The force would ruin her shoulder like baseball player did.
 

Stanmiller

Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 7, 2009
Messages
1,822
Reaction score
331
Location
Back of Beyond
Ian,
Recoil impulse is generated when the burning powder burn reacts against the mass of the projectile. That imparts a shove in the opposite direction (toward the shooter). That shove is resisted by both the mass of the weapon AND the mass of the shooter.

So the heavier the weapon for a given bullet weight and powder charge, the less perceived recoil the shooter will feel. But too heavy and it becomes a crew-served weapon. Research the Barrett M82A rifle and the tripod-mounted M2A machine gun. Both fire the same round, the .50 BMG. The Barrett wights thirty pounds and can be carried and fired by one shooter. The Ma Deuce requires a crew of three to carry the gun, the tripod, and the ammunition.

There's another way to reduce perceived recoil. A device called a muzzle brake uses the expanding gases at the muzzle to produce a forward force that partially offsets the rearward shove. When you're checking out the Barrett, note the muzzle brake (it's not spelled break, as you may see it called by some who should know better). That, combined with the weight of the rifle, reduces the recoil down to about that of a 12 ga shotgun.

So your skinny shooter could do very well with a big rifle with a muzzle brake, shooting from prone off a bipod (no need for a tripod). The problem would be she may need help carrying the thing.

Stan
 

Puma

Retired and loving it!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Messages
7,340
Reaction score
1,536
Location
Central Ohio
Funny - my boss once told me about firing a 12 gauge shotgun when he was a kid. He knew the recoil would sit him on his rear so to solve the problem he braced himself against a tree. Just about took his shoulder off.

The factors that play into your question: caliber and load (how much powder); length of the stock - longer barrels are more accurate, but add weight - however, black powder rifles were not as accurate as modern guns because they were smooth bore; recoil and padding.

A tripod to rest the barrel on would solve the weight problem, but you still have damage potential from the butt of the stock and recoil - to me much worse than trying to hold up a heavy gun.

Hope this helps. Puma
 

Stanmiller

Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 7, 2009
Messages
1,822
Reaction score
331
Location
Back of Beyond
Puma,
Sorry, but smoothbore BP rifles disappeared around the time of the American Revolution, with the British Brown Bess musket being about the last of them. 'Member the Yankee sharpshooters at Concord? Yep, rifled barrels, which became the standard after that.

As for inaccuracy, I shoot an 1853 .577 caliber Confederate Enfield that's a tackdriver at a hundred yards with its favorite bullet and powder charge.

And do not ever, ever brace against anything solid when firing a gun. If the body can't move, ALL the recoil impulse is transmitted into the shooter, as your boss discovered.

Stan
 

jclarkdawe

Feeling lucky, Query?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
10,297
Reaction score
3,861
Location
New Hampshire
My daughter faces this in her military qualifications for weapons. She's five foot nothing and just in general is small.

The problems begin even before you fire the weapon. It just doesn't fit well. For example, my duaghter's hands are too small for the military's handgun. There's no way she can hold it the way she's supposed to and fire the trigger. She's on the very tip of her fingers reaching for the trigger. So the instructors have to make modifications for her, which inherently effect the accuracy of her shooting.

With a rifle, my daughter had to rely on her prone position when firing to score the necessary accuracy to pass the test. So the instructors really emphasized that style of shooting to her and other people too small to handle a rifle comfortably.

Recoil is dealt with through additional padding. And she isn't going to be doing a lot of shooting without a severely sore shoulder. My guess is she also flinches from the recoil more than a larger person.

But this is also because the military believes that one size fits all (actually it's because supply issues would quickly become very complicated). If she was a civilian and liked shooting, I'm sure she'd find a weapon she was comfortable with. My guess is your character would do the same. My guess is your character would either fire from the prone position or use a solid object to rest the gun on. Additional padding would be used to address the recoil issue. She'd have to learn to compensate for these things, but it can definitely be learned.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

Puma

Retired and loving it!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Messages
7,340
Reaction score
1,536
Location
Central Ohio
Hi Stan - From what I've discovered, the Kentucky rifles were about the first of the rifled bores. But there were still a lot of the smooth bores around. I brought it up because I suspected the OP hadn't thought about anything like that. Puma
 

Stanmiller

Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 7, 2009
Messages
1,822
Reaction score
331
Location
Back of Beyond
Puma,
If I remember correctly, the OP brought this up sometime back. It's a civilization that's reverted to lower-tech, and gone back to BP weapons with cast lead projectiles because of the loss of the precision machinery necessary for brass cartridges and jacketed bullets.

Perhaps the OP will enlighten us....

Stan
 

IanMorrison

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 31, 2008
Messages
152
Reaction score
2
Location
St. Albert, Alberta, Canada
Puma,
If I remember correctly, the OP brought this up sometime back. It's a civilization that's reverted to lower-tech, and gone back to BP weapons with cast lead projectiles because of the loss of the precision machinery necessary for brass cartridges and jacketed bullets.

Perhaps the OP will enlighten us....

Stan

Yeah, you're remembering correctly. The civilisation was roughly 1940's level technology wise before a world-spanning cataclysm about 150 years prior kicked their asses and broke most of their people, land, and infrastructure. I still haven't nailed down exactly how limited they are in terms of machining abilities, but black powder has become the standard because the infrastructure and resources required for smokeless powder is severely diminished, and the loss of old-world transportation networks means that most firearms and ammunition need to be produced locally. Black powder is simpler to create and stores a hell of a lot better, so it's generally speaking a better choice.

As far as machining, I'm still assuming that they've mainly fallen behind on capacity instead of sophistication. They can still use relatively primitive cartridges and jacketed bullets, and I fully expect that they know to rifle their weapon barrels, even if the quality pales by comparison to old-world standards. Regardless, they'll certainly be aware of old-world designs, even when putting them into practise might be difficult.

A quick google search reveals that muzzle brakes were pretty well known around the 1940's (though I couldn't find out when they were first introduced) so I expect that it'd be reasonable to expect the design to be known in my setting. I think I'll make the addition to the weapon, since it doesn't seem to be that difficult an addition. Throw in a bipod and cloth padding on the butt of the gun, and I guess that'd start looking reasonably manageable recoil-wise.

Of course, she'd still have the whole "carrying around a weapon that's a third of your weight" issue, but she'd be able to shoot it! :p
 

Stanmiller

Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 7, 2009
Messages
1,822
Reaction score
331
Location
Back of Beyond
Yes! I thought this was the one. Very nice premise. I hope to see some of it posted in SYW when you're ready.
 

Kitti

procrastinatrix
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
258
Reaction score
42
Location
changes every 3-6 months
Website
www.katotis.com
Is there any reason she needs to be of a slight build? (I'm assuming that, by this, you mean someone with small bones and not much muscle - please correct me if I'm wrong.)

My mother and I are both short (5'2" and 5'3" respectively), small boned and skinny, but because I play sports there's about a thirty pound weight difference between us and it's all in muscle. I would be very surprised if your character didn't build up significant muscle from all that travel and from toting around her gun, unless there was a lack of food/nutrition.
 

jallenecs

Searching for Wonderland
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Messages
9,940
Reaction score
1,292
Location
Appalachia
I don't know about the math involved, nor am I a huge gun nut. But I do have some small experience (no pun intended). I learned to shoot when I was eight years old. Heck, my kids learned when they were around the same age.

Carrying the gun was not a problem; that's what the strap is for. Kick is unpleasant at that size, granted. But if you're well trained, and know to seat the gun firmly against your shoulder when you shoot, you're going to get away with bruises most of the time.

My big problem as a little girl was the nose wanting to drop. I wasn't strong enough to hold it steady for more than one or two shots. Everybody is right, a prop would help. Go look at the old pictures. You'll see musketeers carrying what looks like a hiking stick with a fork at the top. That was a prop to allow them to shoot standing up, with what was one of the heaviest black powder guns extant: the wheellock rifle.

My dad used a prop just like that when he shot, even with modern rifles. He had CP, so it was more than he could handle to aim, shoot, and keep his balance. The prop made things easier for him. They're easy to make, just a stick at the right height for your shooter, and it has a fork at the top.
 

IanMorrison

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 31, 2008
Messages
152
Reaction score
2
Location
St. Albert, Alberta, Canada
@ Stan: I'll try to keep you posted, but since this is ultimately a side project I fear it'll be quite some time before it's presentable. :(

Is there any reason she needs to be of a slight build? (I'm assuming that, by this, you mean someone with small bones and not much muscle - please correct me if I'm wrong.)

My mother and I are both short (5'2" and 5'3" respectively), small boned and skinny, but because I play sports there's about a thirty pound weight difference between us and it's all in muscle. I would be very surprised if your character didn't build up significant muscle from all that travel and from toting around her gun, unless there was a lack of food/nutrition.

That's a good point. She's short (my current notes put her at 4'9", though I might end up bringing that up a tad eventually) and skinny but she's still athletic. In fact, she does a lot of sprinting, vaulting over obstacles, and climbing (basically parkour) as her preferred method for getting around. Still, that's mostly the wrong kind of muscle better suited for quick movement and endurance than to brawn.

I imagine she would get better at carrying this monster around after practise, but they're not travelling on foot... they've got vehicles with them, and the weapon would likely just stay in its case in the truck until the kinds of critters that it's meant to kill show up (which, fortunately, are usually seen a ways off). It is a specialist tool, after all, so there's no need to have it at the ready at all times. She'd still end up carrying a smaller rifle around for the smaller threats that give less forewarning, but that'd likely be something significantly more manageable.

@ jallanecs:

That's a really interesting idea. Can those sorts of improvised props be set up in a hurry?
 
Last edited:

jallenecs

Searching for Wonderland
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Messages
9,940
Reaction score
1,292
Location
Appalachia
My dad was one of the more popular teachers in our high school; one of his student fan club made him a gorgeous prop in woodshop class. The actual musketeers, like from the Dumas novels, used a fancy prop with a metal fork. But I've used just a stick that I picked up in the woods. Find one that already has a usable fork at the top, and then cut off the excess height/fork length.

The original idea comes from an old trick I've also used, and seen on tv a million times: brace a gun in the branch of a tree, or with your hand against the trunk of a tree.

https://bashapedia.pbworks.com/w/page/13960966/Matchlocks Here's a picture of what I'm talking about.
 
Last edited:

Stanmiller

Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 7, 2009
Messages
1,822
Reaction score
331
Location
Back of Beyond
@ Stan: I'll try to keep you posted, but since this is ultimately a side project I fear it'll be quite some time before it's presentable. :(


That's a really interesting idea. Can those sorts of improvised props be set up in a hurry?

Ian and jallenecs,
The unipod (prop) works OK sitting or standing. A folding bipod with adjustable legs attached to the rifle works better from the prone. Example

Also, shooting sticks work well. These are just a pair of equal length sticks with a connector piece that allow them to be used as a variable-length bipod. See them here.

Stan
 
Last edited:

IanMorrison

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 31, 2008
Messages
152
Reaction score
2
Location
St. Albert, Alberta, Canada
Oh, now that's interesting. What I like about both the prop and the shooting sticks is that they're something that'd be very easy to improvise or create with simple techniques and materials, which makes a lot more sense in this infrastructure-starved setting than sophisticated bipods and the like.
 

Stanmiller

Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 7, 2009
Messages
1,822
Reaction score
331
Location
Back of Beyond
Oh, now that's interesting. What I like about both the prop and the shooting sticks is that they're something that'd be very easy to improvise or create with simple techniques and materials, which makes a lot more sense in this infrastructure-starved setting than sophisticated bipods and the like.

The folding bipod isn't sophisticated in design. It's the springs that would be problematic. High-strength springs require advanced metallurgy.

Shooting sticks don't have that problem, but they have to be readjusted after each shot. I've used them varmint shooting. Recoil changes the angle of the sticks, changing point of aim.

For varmints, no big deal. For a thundering herd of house-size beasts bent on trampling the heroine into the dirt, it affects rate of fire. That could be a problem.

Isn't this fun?

Stan
 

Drachen Jager

Professor of applied misanthropy
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 13, 2010
Messages
17,171
Reaction score
2,284
Location
Vancouver
She has a team Stan, surely with three brawny guys they can help stabilize the shooting sticks.
 

jallenecs

Searching for Wonderland
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Messages
9,940
Reaction score
1,292
Location
Appalachia
For varmints, no big deal. For a thundering herd of house-size beasts bent on trampling the heroine into the dirt, it affects rate of fire. That could be a problem.

Isn't this fun?

Stan

For a thundering herd of house sized beasts, I wouldn't face them holding black powder! Even using the Civil War era paper cartridge, a normal shooter could only load and fire about three times a minute. And that's assuming we're discussing a caplock and a paper cartridge. Go any more old school than that, or mess with flint-, wheel- or matchlock (which all have flashpan assemblies), that's going to slow you down even more.

You could get into some of the more esoteric "repeating fire" black powder firearms. But they are essentially impossible to find, and frighteningly unreliable.

No, if I had a stampede (of cows, much less house-sized beasts) coming at me, I wouldn't be worried about the state of my shooting skills. I'd be more worried about the state of my running skills.
 

Drachen Jager

Professor of applied misanthropy
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 13, 2010
Messages
17,171
Reaction score
2,284
Location
Vancouver
This thread reminds me of the Rare Exports video, if you haven't watched it you should. Truly one of the greatest short films ever made (and Christmas themed too, though don't let the kiddies watch).
 

Stanmiller

Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 7, 2009
Messages
1,822
Reaction score
331
Location
Back of Beyond
BP repeaters hard to find? The .30-30 and .45-70 rifle calibers, along with the .45 Colt and .38 SPL revolver loads are the most common of the original blackpowder cartridge calibers. They are available today both in the original BP loads and smokeless powder loads too. Guns chambered for these cartridges are still in production.

As for power, the .500 and .600 BP Express calibers used by ivory hunters in Africa were quite good at dropping car-size thundering beasts (elephants and cape buffalo). These were blackpowder rounds later adapted to smokeless powder as the .500 and .600 Nitro Express rounds.

Another BP gun in my family is a Springfield conversion from a Civil War muzzleloader to trapdoor breechloader, then reissued for use during the Indian Wars of the 1870s. It shoots the .50-70 metallic cartridge blackpowder load. And it's pretty accurate too, despite being at Gettysburg.

Stan