Starting an epub -- experiences, advice?

Status
Not open for further replies.

SafetyDance

L'Oreal. He's worth it.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
527
Reaction score
75
Location
England
If I have no success finding an agent for my current project, I will need a home for it. I have a couple of friends who write similar fiction -- good stuff -- and in a discussion tonight, it occurred to us that starting our own epub for it might be an option.

Now. I have no publishing experience. I used to teach English so I'm not so worried about learning the technical side of editing (the market knowledge is a different matter) but that's about it. I've bought some truly awful ebooks lately...hey, if they can do it...

Any experiences or words of advice? There would be a bucketload of research to be done, and I'd be waiting until my daughter went to school next year (I don't work). There's a possibility of harrassing industry people for some work experience (I live near London), should they take people. A friend of mine used to work for Random House so I could see what she could do.

I wouldn't be going into it to make buckets of money. I should make that clear. I am interested as to what people think it would take to cover the costs, though -- in fact, whether it's likely to cover costs at all. What those costs might be, too.

All comments appreciated, even if they're "oh hell, no." :p
 

amyashley

Stunt-Writer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Messages
2,243
Reaction score
348
Location
Texas
Just curious. I know little to be of help. Have you tried any of the e-pub agents in the US? I know this one:

http://www.ampichellis.com/aboutus.html

They are new, eager, and I'm pretty sure they are legit.

and I know this agent:

http://saritzahernandez.blogspot.com/?zx=a2ace9079d0691df

She is def. legit and does erotica too, which I know you write some of.


There are some more here, but I do know that one particular e-pub here is doing advances now, I believe.

Sorry to not be helpful on the business aspect.
 

veinglory

volitare nequeo
Self-Ban
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
28,750
Reaction score
2,933
Location
right here
Website
www.veinglory.com
Warning, I am not going to be little miss positive here.

There are about 100-200 epublishers out there. Most of them sell very little. They cause confusion and for the most part sell mediocre to poor content. Anyone can start another one of these, but why bother?

I would say there are two good options
1) start a good epublisher with start up capital, qualified people and independent editorial standards.
2) Self publish either individually or as a co-op, but be clear that you are self-publishing. Making an epublisher 'shell' to go around this probably subtracts rather than adds value.

Just my 2c.
 

SafetyDance

L'Oreal. He's worth it.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
527
Reaction score
75
Location
England
Thanks Amy -- to be honest, if I am going to go the epub route, I am interested to see if I can do it this way. I am in need of a new career :p and I know this is how one of the bigger erotica ehouses came about (I also don't understand why you'd need an agent for an epub house, to be honest!).

I'm just wondering if it's a) something I can learn and b) going to lose me a big wodge of cash.
 

SafetyDance

L'Oreal. He's worth it.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
527
Reaction score
75
Location
England
Warning, I am not going to be little miss positive here.

There are about 100-200 epublishers out there. Most of them sell very little. They cause confusion and for the most part sell mediocre to poor content. Anyone can start another one of these, but why bother?

I need something to do with my life? :) (I mean that in a less flippant way than it sounds, but essentially, I have the time).

I have been vocal on here myself about the poor quality of some epubs. I'm aware that it's not likely to turn into something big. I'm just curious, more than anything.
 

thothguard51

A Gentleman of a refined age...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
9,316
Reaction score
1,064
Age
72
Location
Out side the beltway...
If you are referring to Elora's Cave, the original owner sold out if I remember right. She also had a day job to keep her going. She also did all the work herself and lost money for years before turning a very modest profit. The banking system about drove her crazy with all the international exchange rates, paypal rates, etc...

If you want to start another epub in an an already crowded field, don't expect to turn any profits for five years, if ever. You will be paying for everything, and not just in money, but in your reputation as well because you are not going to please everyone...

Think you have thick skin now as a writer...your going to need Rhinohyde as a publisher because everyone is going to be taking shots at you...
 

Bubastes

bananaed
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 7, 2006
Messages
7,394
Reaction score
2,250
Website
www.gracewen.com
I agree with veinglory. If you and your friends want to get your work out there, go the self-pub route. Don't use other people's manuscripts as guinea pigs for your publishing experiment.
 

SafetyDance

L'Oreal. He's worth it.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
527
Reaction score
75
Location
England
I agree with veinglory. If you and your friends want to get your work out there, go the self-pub route. Don't use other people's manuscripts as guinea pigs for your publishing experiment.

Oh, no. I think you misunderstand me. I wouldn't be opening for queries or the like! I mean a co-op, as Veinglory stated, but giving it a house name (brand name?). There are a fair few of us as it is.

thothguard, I am referring to Excessica. ETA: the post further down -- "the future of self-publishing" -- describes how she did it, if anyone's interested:
http://selenakitt.com/blog/index.php/category/publishing/

To be honest, I am not particularly interested in the "type" of erotica that they publish, though it is evidently quite sellable -- so I'm not sure how commerically viable the stuff we write would be. The crux of it would be whether it could be self-funded for a good period of time, among other things.
 
Last edited:

Bubastes

bananaed
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 7, 2006
Messages
7,394
Reaction score
2,250
Website
www.gracewen.com
Oh, no. I think you misunderstand me. I wouldn't be opening for queries or the like! I mean a co-op, as Veinglory stated, but giving it a house name (brand name?). There are a fair few of us as it is.

Ah, gotcha. Sorry for misreading!
 

veinglory

volitare nequeo
Self-Ban
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
28,750
Reaction score
2,933
Location
right here
Website
www.veinglory.com
There are few epub co-ops but it basically amounts to a name and logo, and linking your reputation to that of the other authors. So you need to trust that they write, edit and format at or above your level and that this is a saleable level--or you lose more than you gain. And with no start up money or share capital you will be selling only via distributors when the larger epublishers actuall sell a lot of volume from their own websites.

I would say that even of you go that way you need to have a properly constucted contact to formalise the relationship and obligations very clearly.

My personal preference is to buy from self-publishers who self-brand (LK Campbell, Dusk Darkling come to mind). I know these people *can" write, edit and format all at a crazy high level. Then you know exactly what you are getting. In a co-op I wonder who did the editing, who else is getting a cut...? It is less clear to me what is going on.

Again, just my opinion.
 
Last edited:

SafetyDance

L'Oreal. He's worth it.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
527
Reaction score
75
Location
England
If you're going to go the epub route, why not simply submit to a reputable epublisher? There are some good ones out there.

There are. I would like the control, though :) I need to figure out if it's something I ought to be controlling.

Veinglory -- what's the difference between these self-branders you describe, and a co-op?
 

Bubastes

bananaed
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 7, 2006
Messages
7,394
Reaction score
2,250
Website
www.gracewen.com
I'm probably being dense, but I don't understand this need for "control." What exactly do you want to control?
 

Nightmelody

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
306
Reaction score
16
Location
Wyoming high desert
You can self publish on Amazon Kindle for a 70% cut which is more than any epub. The big issue with that is finding readers to buy your book--but that will be still an issue with a brand new epub--or almost any epub.

There are so many epubs selling erotica and erotic romance, and now Carina is on the scene--and they have money for promo--they already place adds in Romantic Times, which many of the smaller epubs can't afford. Plus they have print and distribution power through Harlequin.
 

SafetyDance

L'Oreal. He's worth it.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
527
Reaction score
75
Location
England
I'm probably being dense, but I don't understand this need for "control." What exactly do you want to control?

I'm just fascinated by the whole process. I understand that an already set-up epub would be able to do whatever it is much better than me (well...maybe not the cover art :p) and probably make me more money, too, but I am curious to learn how the whole thing works.
 

thothguard51

A Gentleman of a refined age...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
9,316
Reaction score
1,064
Age
72
Location
Out side the beltway...
Well, starting your own house is different from starting an e-pub. Lots of authors self publish this way, still most fail for the same reasons, low sales...

My suggestion, if you really want to go self pub, then go the full route and not the easy way with Amazon. Here are some things you will need to consider...

1...Hire an editor to go over your work. YOU do not edit your own work.
2...Hire a cover artist.
3...Hire a art director that then lays out your covers.
4...Hire a proof reader. Should be a different person from the editor.
5...Hire a person, to format the final product for e-publishing, in various formats. Amazon never checks the work, and neither do the others...
6...Hire the web service company and a designer for the web site.
7...Incorporate your company name, more than likely LLC.
8...Start bank account in company name.
9...Buy ISBN numbers, cheeper in blocks
10..Submit finished copyright of your work
11...Make agreement with paypal or whatever payment system you want to use.
12...Hire a lawyer to represent you and read over all documents, you will still need a agreement between you the author and you the publisher.
13...Purchase liability insurance. (You might need it one day.)
14...Hire accountant, your going to need to keep track of all expenses for tax purposes.
15...Stock up on the booze and drugs. Have last fling or rousing good sex because it will be a while before you think about it again.
16...Now, spam the hell out of every writing site you can find... Insert your link in every blog response you use, swap blog and website addresses with every other self published author and writer who will agree...


Did I miss anything guys and gals...

Of course I am being silly and over dramatic, but those are things TRUE self published author do...
 

veinglory

volitare nequeo
Self-Ban
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
28,750
Reaction score
2,933
Location
right here
Website
www.veinglory.com
Because I know LK and Dusk rock and all their books rock (no they are not personal friends of mine, I just read their work)

If either of them joined up with 2-4 other random people who may or may not have had some input into the work, I would no longer fee l so sure the book would rock.

That said, neither approach is likely to be a money-spinner compared to going with an establish top 10 digital publisher (which are themselves only modestly profitable on a per book basis).

One question i would ask: how many books have you bought from co-ops? How loften were you so impressed you went back and bought from them again? Wha proportion fo your total book buying for the year would this have been?

For most people the answer is in the slim to nil range, fairly or unfairly. Any slice of the pie below about the level of Cobblestone Press of Dreamspinner is likely to be a very small one.

As ever, just my opinion.
 
Last edited:

Jersey Chick

Up all night to get Loki
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 9, 2007
Messages
12,320
Reaction score
4,278
Location
in the state of carefully controlled chaos
Website
www.kimberlynee.com
You can write the best book in the world, have the most beautiful cover - but unless someone (or many someones) know it exists, who's going to buy it? People on Amazon aren't going to scroll through every single book available. Most (and this is my opinion, and not based on scientific anything) already know what they are looking for.
 

veinglory

volitare nequeo
Self-Ban
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
28,750
Reaction score
2,933
Location
right here
Website
www.veinglory.com
1...Hire an editor to go over your work. YOU do not edit your own work.
2...Hire a cover artist.
3...Hire a art director that then lays out your covers.
4...Hire a proof reader. Should be a different person from the editor.
5...Hire a person, to format the final product for e-publishing, in various formats. Amazon never checks the work, and neither do the others...
[/QUOTE]

You could probably get one person to edit and copy edit, and one person to do the cover and the interior and still end up with something okay. That's what I did. But it won't look fully professional and I am publishing reprints that have already been edited once.

I would agree that unless you are already independently proficient not to do it yourself. I read *a lot* of self-published work and a lot of them make this mistake. But to outlay this money you need to have a plan to earn it back.

I am tinkering with a self-published volume that will break even at 500 sales. But Loose Id and Samhain have already put my name out there to the readership which is really going to help. I don't intend to have an shell epublisher. The publisher name will just be my name. It will just sell via distributors.

That's just my approach. If the book is just by me/from me... that's what it will look like. And I am not tangling myself up with a bunch of other people i have no control over who might do... whatever with the brand.
 

SafetyDance

L'Oreal. He's worth it.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
527
Reaction score
75
Location
England
Because I know LK and Dusk rock and all their books rock (no they are not personal friends of mine, i just read their work)

If either of them joined up with 2-4 other random people who may or may not have had some input into the work, I would no longer fee l so sure the book would rock.

That said, neither approach is aikely to be a money-spinner compared to going with an establish top 10 edigital publisher (which are themselves only modestly profitable on a per book basis).

One question i would ask: how many books have you bought from co-ops? How loften were you so impressed you went back and bought from them again? Wha proportion fo your total book buying for the year would this have been?

For most people the answer is in the slim to nil range, fairly or unfairly. Any slice of the pie below about the level of Cobblestone Press of Dreamspinner is likely to be a very small one.

As ever, just my opinion.

Ah, I see. The difference is purely because you already know and trust the writers?

How many books have I bought and loved from co-ops? To be honest with you, I haven't been impressed with any of the ebooks I've bought at all. I am usually only impressed by about 10% of the print books that I buy, though, at the most :p I am notoriously picky. I get more enjoyment out of some of the stuff I edit than stuff I've paid for online (I realise my own enjoyment does not = transferred to hoards of paying customers, just sharing my experience). And of course, I choose the stuff I edit because I like it...that may have something to do with that, heh.

Thothguard -- anybody would think you were trying to put me off :p (thank you, lol).
 

SafetyDance

L'Oreal. He's worth it.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
527
Reaction score
75
Location
England
You can write the best book in the world, have the most beautiful cover - but unless someone (or many someones) know it exists, who's going to buy it? People on Amazon aren't going to scroll through every single book available. Most (and this is my opinion, and not based on scientific anything) already know what they are looking for.

No, I understand that. But I'd like to learn about that part, too. I would be doing this because I'm interested in the industry rather than flogging as many copies as possible (of course that should be an ideal, but secondary to me learning the process behind it -- if that makes any sense at all).

However, if it turns out that the whole thing would just be a huge, swirling black hole in which I had to chuck fistfulls of money to pissed off rainbow trout -- I shall reconsider :p
 

veinglory

volitare nequeo
Self-Ban
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
28,750
Reaction score
2,933
Location
right here
Website
www.veinglory.com
If you are publishing to profit you need to think about what your customer base is. It will most likely be down stream of what 'real' epublishers acheive. If you aren't publishing to profit you need to think about what your goals are and whether this will acheive them.

IMHO the industry *is* flogging a lot of copies. If you make and vend a book nobody buys, what is it that has been learned? Putting word in a file and making it available for sale is no longer all that difficult.... (see random books at Lulu or Smashwords for examples). The biggest predictor of ebooks sales is the publisher, and to my knowledge none of the top selling publishers are co-ops.

I like self-published books but people who do it well are either fully-fledged publishers in theri own right, or working in a non-commerical niche and with mad skills.
 
Last edited:

SafetyDance

L'Oreal. He's worth it.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
527
Reaction score
75
Location
England
IMHO the industry *is* flogging a lot of copies. If you make and vend a book nobody buys, what is it that has been learned?.

...that we did it wrong, and we need to get better?! Of course the goal would not be to sell nothing. I'm just trying to say that I wouldn't be expecting to be made rich, or to somehow be magically better than other people who're already doing it.

The whole ebook industry is relatively new, I will have a lot of time, and I can work for free for a good while. What I can't do is lose a large amount of money. I'm just researching the idea.
 

PortableHal

Not-so-new
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 29, 2005
Messages
762
Reaction score
46
Location
The lovely mountains of Arizona
Website
www.marsneedswriters.com
Firebrain, there's a lot of good advice here from some smart, successful writers. If it seems they're warning you away from a co-op epub, it's probably because even the good books struggle to be found in the current cascade of digital novels.

Writer Dean Wesley Smith would probably tell you to go for it, though, and you might check out his site for a different perspective.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.