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OpheliaRevived
11-17-2010, 07:28 AM
... is that so wrong?!

I'm formatting my 85K word ms to fit all of the "standard ms" guidelines and this whole Courier New font thing is breaking my heart! I hate it with a passion for a couple of reasons. The main one is that it seems HUGE.

It took me a week to appreciate the rationale for double spacing. I get it now. I'm a convert. I'm even willing to underline all italics so that I fall in line with what is expected.

I'm still not on board with the whole starting a chapter halfway down the page thing, but I want to conform, so I'll do it. Why is that necessary? (Really, I want to know.)

Is there another widely accepted font I could use without looking like a newb when I finally do start submitting material? (Even though I am, in fact, a newb.)

Medievalist
11-17-2010, 07:35 AM
Write in whatever you like.

But when you get ready to submit, check the specific policy for that particular agent, editor, or publisher.

Courier is still the standard for many, but I am seeing, every year, more and more entities who are fine with Times New Roman.

Regarding starting halfway down the page, it makes it very easy to find the chapter openings, and it provides space for formatting/layout/editorial notes that's often very useful, even if the author doesn't see the notes.

Courier is the traditional, in part because it's monospaced and makes the casting off, figuring out the pages and signatures of the printed book, and hence cost, time to print and cover price very very easy--there are a number of traditional formulae etc.

And there are editors and typesetters who, with a properly formatted ms. in courier, can actually eyeball the hardcopy and make a startlingly accurate estimate of the number of words, etc.

Courier is also easy to markup wrt to copyediting and typesetting, as well, because of spacing.

OpheliaRevived
11-17-2010, 07:49 AM
Darn your thoughtful input! LOL

thothguard51
11-17-2010, 08:12 AM
I used to write everything in New Roman....

Once I started formating for submissions though, I got very used to using New Courier. It really is a very simple and easy to read format as each letter is uniform in size and space. Makes it very easy to set a page up so I get the standard 1" margins and 250 words per page at double spacing.

My story in New Roman at 100,000 words was about 450 pages using the same formula. In New Courier it jumped to around 500 pages. There is that big a difference on words per line and page because Roman letter are not uniform in size and in many cases, squeezed together.

Once you get used to formating all you work for submission right from the draft stage, its not bad at all.

rugcat
11-17-2010, 08:28 AM
I've submitted everything in TNR, and no one has ever said a word or requested anything different, even for subsequent mss.

Jersey Chick
11-17-2010, 08:41 AM
I'll use Courier only under pain of death.

I like TNR and have been using it for all subs.

Izz
11-17-2010, 08:52 AM
I'm one of those rare few people who both likes Courier and began seriously writing after the age of typewriters.

Not that that has anything to do with this, but sometimes i like to feel included in conversations even if i have nothing to add *cheesy grin*

BenPanced
11-17-2010, 09:22 AM
Of course, I detect I'll be the contradictory voice here...

shaldna
11-17-2010, 02:52 PM
I like courier, but have to use arial at work. I write alot of my own stuff in tnr or courier.

So long as you are consistant, and it's clear, it doesn't matter if you use courier or tnr

Wayne K
11-17-2010, 02:57 PM
I use either.

Margarita Skies
11-17-2010, 03:44 PM
When I type up my MS, I do it in Palatino Linotype, size 12 in Word, single-spaced, and I made the mistake of submitting a story like that to two different agents, a 100k-word one, and they told me nothing about the font. They read it just the way it was and told me that it wasn't right for them at this time, but when you go to their submission-guidelines page, I'm not sure if it says anything about font face and spacing, but they read it just the way it was and commented nothing about the formatting. It's not like I'm going to make this mistake again because I seldom make the same mistake twice, but I thought I had to let you know my curious experience. More and more agents prefer TNR now, so soon you won't have anything to worry about when it comes to that, only whether your story is accepted or rejected, and to me that is the most important thing, as I've learned.

OpheliaRevived
11-17-2010, 07:08 PM
We need a picketing smiley that has a little sign that reads: "TNR 4 EVR" TEE HEE!

scarletpeaches
11-17-2010, 07:11 PM
I have Multiple Fontonality Disorder.

I write in Courier New, print for editing in Verdana and submit in TNR.

OpheliaRevived
11-17-2010, 07:30 PM
Its a serious condition, Peaches.

CheyElizabeth
11-17-2010, 08:06 PM
I've submitted everything in TNR, and no one has ever said a word or requested anything different, even for subsequent mss.


Me too

scarletpeaches
11-17-2010, 08:07 PM
I can quit any time I want! Just...gimme some wingdings, man. I need my hit of wingdings.

ChaosTitan
11-17-2010, 08:16 PM
I've submitted everything in TNR, and no one has ever said a word or requested anything different, even for subsequent mss.

Ditto.

Adam
11-17-2010, 08:19 PM
TNR all the way for me. Never had an issue with someone wanting something else, either. :)

I even use the font on MSN. :D

brainstorm77
11-17-2010, 08:50 PM
Same.

OpheliaRevived
11-17-2010, 09:22 PM
I'm cutting you off, Peaches. it's for your own good. Put down the dippin' sauce!

thothguard51
11-17-2010, 09:22 PM
Curse you young whipper-snappers and your wing dings...

scarletpeaches
11-17-2010, 09:31 PM
You'll never take my Comic Sans!

brainstorm77
11-17-2010, 09:33 PM
I'm sure my old typwriter was TNR...

quickWit
11-17-2010, 09:35 PM
I hope you all realize you're going to Hell.

Jesus wants all the world to use Courier.

Peace and Love. :)

Cassiopeia
11-17-2010, 09:46 PM
You'll never take my Comic Sans!Amen

Medievalist
11-17-2010, 10:45 PM
I am ancient, chickens.

When I first started using the Mac, when it was the only personal computer with multiple fonts, and a laser printer, I seem to have had a compulsion to use Every Single Font I had.

It was ugly.

brainstorm77
11-17-2010, 11:20 PM
I bought my first computer in 1996. Before it was a Smith-Corona typewriter. :)

scarletpeaches
11-17-2010, 11:21 PM
I first had my own computer (well, PC) in 2004. Previous to that I'd used an Amstrad CPC 464 and a TRS-80, neither for word processing. (Snerk. Yeah, right).

Ah, the TRS-80. Anyone remember that? "Where d'y'put the coal in?"

Medievalist
11-17-2010, 11:49 PM
I first had my own computer (well, PC) in 2004. Previous to that I'd used an Amstrad CPC 464 and a TRS-80, neither for word processing. (Snerk. Yeah, right).

Ah, the TRS-80. Anyone remember that? "Where d'y'put the coal in?"

We called it the Trash 80 :D

I loved Santa Paravia with white hot passion.

Not that I was a geek, or anything . . .

scarletpeaches
11-17-2010, 11:50 PM
I loved the text adventure games on that machine. Ah, those were the days...

RachelBrooks
11-18-2010, 12:00 AM
As long as you donít submit your manuscript in a difficult to read font you should be okay. Most agents arenít going to reject your manuscript just because itís not typed in Courier New.

When I was querying I used Veranda 10 (itís easy to read on paper, computer screens, e-readers, etc.) and it didnít stop me from getting an agent. So, if you really love Times New Roman, you can submit it that way unless an agency specifically says not to, or specifically requests a certain font type. Donít stress over it too much otherwiseJ

Cassiopeia
11-18-2010, 12:55 AM
My first computer was an Apple Macintosh bought in 1984. In 1988 I bought my first IBM 8088. Dos was the name of the game back then. Life was so much simpler than. :D

Adam
11-18-2010, 02:38 AM
Amstrad CPC 464, then nothing but games consoles till around '96 when we got our first real PC. ;)

Gawd knows what the fonts were back then. :D

Mr Flibble
11-18-2010, 03:19 AM
Pfft I had a sinclair. Not that new fangled spectrum crap either :D No, I had a ZX80....

As for teh OP - I've always subbed in TNR (except where guidelines state Courier or whatever only.) If no preference is stated, they get TNR. It's pretty well accepted. (I also don't underline my italics. *shrug* In the days of find 'font' on an electronic sub...it doesn't matter so much. No one has complained as yet.)

scarletpeaches
11-18-2010, 03:20 AM
Amstrad CPC 464, then nothing but games consoles till around '96 when we got our first real PC. ;)

Gawd knows what the fonts were back then. :DPlaying Dizzy the Egg on a green screen FTW!

What? What? So I feel like a 15-year-old again. Sue me.

scarletpeaches
11-18-2010, 03:23 AM
How the hell did a discussion of fonts turn into me reminiscing about playing platform games based around a dairy product called Dizzy?

The ovoid one has a wikipage!

I'm so DIZZY (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dizzy_(series)) my head is spinning...

Izz
11-18-2010, 03:24 AM
How the hell did a discussion of fonts turn into me reminiscing about playing platform games based around a dairy product called Dizzy?Because that's what happens when you get old... soon you'll be reminiscing about how much cheaper beef was back in your day.

Adam
11-18-2010, 03:24 AM
Ahhh, games on tape. By the time they loaded, you didn't want to play 'em any more. :tongue

scarletpeaches
11-18-2010, 03:26 AM
S'ralan, I salute you, you hairy-chinned game-addiction facilitator, you!

Margarita Skies
11-18-2010, 05:09 AM
I got my first computer, a Packard Bell (anyone remember those?) in 1998. It cost my grandma $1,100, and like $1,500 when we added the printer. I was 17 at the time, but in reality, I didn't discover computers until I went to school here in Florida, after coming here from Puerto Rico in 1993, and as far as I can remember, every single computer I've used has had Times New Roman, but when I discovered how to change the font, I changed it when TNR was the default font. :D I messed with every font out there, Open Type and True Type, and my favorite so far is Palatino, but before submitting I format it the way that agent wants it.

benbradley
11-18-2010, 05:47 AM
You'll never take my Comic Sans!


Amen
Ahem. (http://www.musicalgearbox.com/benbradley_2_Comic_Sans_lyrics.jpg)

Er, um... (http://www.musicalgearbox.com/benbradley_2_Comic_Sans.mp3)

Uncarved
11-18-2010, 06:48 AM
Just.....wrong.

I adore TNR....and Georgia.... and the full stop:)
Comic Sans I like for goofy stuff though too;)

Margarita Skies
11-18-2010, 07:56 AM
Being serious, I only use cutesy, playful fonts like comic sans to compose an email or when I am feeling bubbly or hyper sometimes. The font I use for anything I write reflects my mood. I don't like Verdana 10-point, which is what this is, anymore. I am only using it for these boards because it's the standard and this is the font that was set as the default, and apparently is the font that everyone can read the best and I don't want to upset anyone with an illegible font. I am going back to writing in black again for the same reason. I don't know if Palatino Linotype is serious when I use it in my manuscripts, but it looks so good, not in 100% zoom, it looks really small. When it looks really good to me is when it's zoomed to 120%. Makes a big difference. I can't make it bigger than 120%, though, any font, for that matter, because it makes me feel like I am telling myself in a certain way that I am blinder than I really am. I have astigmatism and miopia (is that how it's spelled?) and I don't have my glasses right now, so it really makes it hard for me to see TNR in 100% zoom, 12 point, and on 120% zoom it looks really good, but Palatino looks better. When I am on the Internet explorers, either IE, which is this one, or Firefox, I insist on using it on normal size because anything bigger than 100% looks colossal and it makes me feel weird, but in Word, I have to have it zoomed or used a bigger font in Notepad, where the choice to zoom is just not there. I like writing in Notepad because I let my ideas and scenes flow without the word count staring at me all the time. I just have the word count of the document viewable in the bottom in word to know how many words my manuscript is total, but counting the words in my individual chapter just makes me feel pressured to hurry up, and I don't like hurrying up. I literally spend the whole day writing up my 6-7k-word chapters, depending on how many chapters I want to write on the individual book, because I write for like an hour or two, not straight up, because I run away from the computer screen so that it doesn't wear me out, and then when my two-hour writing block is over, I either take a nap to rest my eyesight or listen to music or something, avoiding any kind of screen, or I just turn on the iTunes and since the iTunes tracklist is not something I want to look straight at even for five minutes I just leave it on and ignore it unless I want to jump from one song to another without going to the very next track or something, but zoomed, TNR 12-point is a beautiful font. I am going to try it on one of my MS's, and if I just can't get used to it, and I am not planning on submitting that particular MS right now I will go right back to Palatino, but I am not changing what I already wrote up in Palatino. If I get used to TNR, only my future WIP's will be written up in TNR.


Magali.

benbradley
11-18-2010, 08:05 AM
I can hold back no more - this is a screenshot of the first paragraph of the .doc file (with all names and identifying organizations blacked out in Paint), just as I received it and as it displayed in OpenOffice. Of course, for all I know the file opens in Microsoft Word displaying Times New Roman, but THIS is what inspired the link contents in my previous message.
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i274/yetanotherboardie/comic_sans_church_inspiration.jpg
"Church bulletins and resumes, for them you are not."

johnnysannie
11-18-2010, 03:42 PM
I prefer Times New Roman and use it unless an editor or publisher wants Courier - then I change it before I submit.

Back in the day when dinosaurs still roamed the earth, I remember thinking how darn nifty it was to be able to change fonts by changing the ball on my IBM Selectric! Those were the days, my friends.....but I don't miss 'em much. Just occasionally the busy, productive sound of the typewriter keys clacking away.

Summonere
11-18-2010, 08:18 PM
Hmm. Looks like I've almost always used a version of Courier font, even from the days of my old Atari ST and so-so dot-matrix printer. For the past many years, though, some editors have wanted work submitted in TNR. I don't mind TNR, but I have a much clearer idea of story and writing pace when working in Courier. Or at least I used to. Maybe I should pay more attention to that...

Magdalen
11-19-2010, 05:13 AM
I hate Times Roman. When I heard that many agents specifically request Times for subs, I knew the world had truly gone to hell. Whatever happened to Palatino? It had such a lovely ampersand!!

scarletpeaches
11-19-2010, 05:16 AM
Don't you just love Trebuchet? It's so...clean, and that quirky sans serif look somehow manages to stay respectful of the text.

kuwisdelu
11-19-2010, 09:59 AM
Meh, I hate Times New Roman.

I much prefer Garamond or Georgia.

Nonetheless, I submit in TNR or Courier.

And for sans serif, Helvetica all the way.

Margarita Skies
11-19-2010, 05:09 PM
I hate Times Roman. When I heard that many agents specifically request Times for subs, I knew the world had truly gone to hell. Whatever happened to Palatino? It had such a lovely ampersand!!


I write up my Manuscript in Palatino and submit in TNR or Courier depending on what the agent specifies.

KathleenD
11-19-2010, 09:18 PM
My first computer was something called a Leading Edge. It was IBM-compatible. Its word processing program was something called Word Star, and before you could type anything, you needed to put three lines of code at the top of each document.

The last line of code was something like ^A.cm10 - and I know this because every single document I printed out from 1989 to 1994 had a little smear of white-out in the top left corner, covering over the .cw10. The manual swore that the code wouldn't print out, but they were wrong. It always did.

My printer was a daisy wheel style printer, considered classier than the dot matrix in terms of document presentation. It was... a typewriter hooked to a computer. It would type out my documents at about 80WPM, which was barely faster than I could actually type.

I remember being far more impressed by this monstrosity than I am by my current machine, which (for my day job) plays top of the line massively multiplayer games. Is this what jaded means?

juniper
11-19-2010, 09:53 PM
TRS-80 was first computer I used, I think, in about 1982. I worked in television news production and that's what we used for supers (the titles superimposed over the anchor and reporter names, and to identify locations). Had one font, right? Probably courier but I don't remember.

Now my first choice for every day is Cambria. I don't know if it's Mac specific. And I agree with Palatino being a lovely font, too. I also have a fondness for Harrington, if I'm feeling extravagant.

A font designer just won a MacArthur Genius Grant.

http://www.boston.com/ae/books/articles/2010/10/31/a_typeface_designer_on_reading_and_language/

Medievalist
11-19-2010, 11:01 PM
Palatino was designed as a book face, and it's still one of the most common book body text fonts. The designer created Minion as a paired font for Palatino.

I still love Palatino. I use Georgia for most Web stuff though; it was designed to readable on screen, in particular.

Dave.C.Robinson
11-20-2010, 01:37 AM
I wrote my first novel in Palatino - really liked it.

The only font I really dislike is Arial. It just hurts to read anything over a page in it.

thoroughgreg
11-20-2010, 07:00 PM
Ah, this is why I joined! Only writers could discuss fonts so passionately. It's good to be home :-)

My first computer - a Commodore 64, reminds me of the old Zork adventures:

"You are in an open field west of a big white house with a boarded front door.
There is a small mailbox here."

N. M. Hayden
12-12-2010, 04:38 PM
eeeew..... Courier for the win.

lulzy
12-13-2010, 04:17 AM
I use whatever font, I seem to have a weird issue with that (and using different writing softwares all just to write one WIP!)

But I used to always write in TNR, but can now only write it in size 10.

Courier, I don't mind. But Garamond seems to be the font I like to write in the most.

I just can't write in Arial for WIPs though.

tarak
12-13-2010, 05:28 AM
I use TNR. Before I submit anywhere, I'll be sure to check what's required. That said, my first computer was a TRS 80, followed by a Commodore 64, then the 128. Anyone remember Temple of Apshai?

Margarita Skies
12-13-2010, 10:07 PM
I use whatever font, I seem to have a weird issue with that (and using different writing softwares all just to write one WIP!)

But I used to always write in TNR, but can now only write it in size 10.

Courier, I don't mind. But Garamond seems to be the font I like to write in the most.

I just can't write in Arial for WIPs though.


Just curious, what size do you use Garamond in? Garamond 12 in normal zoom seems kind of odd. I just don't like it. Now 14 in normal zoom is a different story, and in 120% zoom, the one I use for my WIP's, even better. I stick with Palatino Linotype 12 in 120% zoom because I don't like breaking my brain trying to figure out what font to use for my next WIP. It's just one less thing I have to worry about. I just start writing.

Triphi
01-29-2011, 08:41 AM
I like Times New Roman. Count me as one of those that gets irritated when I see something all stretched out on Courier. It seems like such a gratuitous waste of space!

(And yes, I do understand the rationale. It still bugs me.)

Fairies wear bOOts:)
01-29-2011, 09:12 AM
The half way down the page thing is kind of funny eh? I'm not sure if I see the logic but I don't mind, it doesn't look that bad. What kills me is that it can't be justified. They have a really good reason for this though, they want to see spacing mistakes. I'll do it, but I think it looks SO ugly; it's something that I was OCD about before becoming a writer. Oh well though. And Courier New? Yeah, to big. I like TNR.

brainstorm77
01-29-2011, 05:27 PM
I've been writing using Cambria. I find it pleasing to my eyes. Of course when subbing, I change it to TNR.

Ken
01-29-2011, 05:36 PM
.... Times Roman is my favorite too. It's a very readable font thanks to the serifs.

milly
01-29-2011, 05:43 PM
I use Times New Roman but I always ask agents what they prefer after they've requested a full or partial to be sure. I've had some ask me to change the font size even but, usually, the font itself is fine.

OpheliaRevived
01-29-2011, 07:16 PM
I had a thread about this... LOL I love it too.

EMaree
01-30-2011, 02:37 AM
I used Times New Roman for a few years, but now I'm fully convert to Courier New. Even if it does feel huge in comparison.

I need to try Palatino for the next MS, since so many people are fans.

Starting a chapter half-way down seems really unnatural, I don't like doing it at all.

Lillie
01-30-2011, 05:11 AM
Oh! Font lovers :)

I feel so at home.

I really like Bookman Old Style at the moment. It's so nice and clear and round.

Konah
02-02-2011, 12:47 AM
I'm a big TNR fan as well, though for my current WIP I am using High Tower Text at size 10 and 110% zoom... Oh how gorgeous it is!

I like to try new font styles whenever I begin a new piece, sometimes certain ones just fit with my mood.

Georgia Lee
02-02-2011, 01:07 AM
I had a thread about this... LOL I love it too.

I couldn't help but giggle... this is your thread. :D

jvc
02-02-2011, 04:19 PM
I had a little giggle at that, too. :roll:

pangalactic
02-02-2011, 04:32 PM
I write and submit in Courier. I find it easier to write that way because I hate reading off a screen, and I submit that way because that's generally what's asked for. When I'm printing for myself, though, I use Verdana or Georgia, because I think they're pretty. I still use double-spacing and all the other formatting options though, because having that much white space on the page is massively useful when editing.

Faide
02-02-2011, 06:40 PM
Garamond, pt 12, double-spacing. Always. Well, I haven't used double-spacing much, but it is really handy when editing and rewriting. And Garamond looks so free and happy when I use double-spacing.

Though I do get creative with the fonts I use in titles :D

NovelTk
02-06-2011, 08:48 AM
This thread's hilarious! I love fonts. I once changed fonts every paragraph. I'm over that now. However, sometimes I like to change color. I guess I'll try courier since it's been mentioned here. I usually type in TNR because it's default on my computer.

Arial is horrible.

I'm no where near submission, but I'm glad I saw this thread. Huge heads up. Thanks. :)

NovelTk
02-06-2011, 08:50 AM
Actually, I may submit to a contest. If the contest doesn't specify does that mean it's open call? Or should I stick to TNR to be safe?