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brainstorm77
11-14-2010, 04:08 PM
Note to Mods: I really didn't know where to put this, please move it if it should be elsewhere.

In another thread a member stated that rapist are often driven by their sexual urges/needs. Do you think rape is about sex?

I always understood that the act of rape was carried out with the need to control and humiliate the victim. And that sex was just a way to do it.

I decided to start a new thread to hear what others think on this topic. The other thread in question wasn't the place to do it.

seun
11-14-2010, 04:19 PM
Note to Mods: I really didn't know where to put this, please move it if it should be elsewhere.

In another thread a member stated that rapist are often driven by their sexual urges/needs. Do you think rape is about sex?

I always understood that the act of rape was carried out with the need to control and humiliate the victim. And that sex was just a way to do it.

I decided to start a new thread to hear what others think on this topic. The other thread in question wasn't the place to do it.

Generally, no. I think it can be, but I think more motivation comes from the need for power, control, humilation and from basically wanting to hurt a woman in a fundamental way.

Mr Flibble
11-14-2010, 04:22 PM
What he said.


A rapist might justify it by thinking it was about sex (particularly if the victim is a wife/girlfriend and therefore should be, you know, obliging. In his head anyway) but I think most often (almost always, from what I've read) it's about power.

seun
11-14-2010, 04:23 PM
A rapist might justify it by thinking it was about sex (particularly if the victim is a wife/girlfriend and therefore should be, you know, obliging. In his head anyway) but I think most often (almost always, from what I've read) it's about power.

I tried to think of a way of saying that but couldn't do it without sounding like I was justifying it. In any case, I agree.

brainstorm77
11-14-2010, 04:24 PM
What he said.


A rapist might justify it by thinking it was about sex (particularly if the victim is a wife/girlfriend and therefore should be, you know, obliging. In his head anyway) but I think most often (almost always, from what I've read) it's about power.

That's how I see it.

RobJ
11-14-2010, 04:30 PM
Perhaps not all instances of rape are the same, given that the circumstances can vary so widely.

caromora
11-14-2010, 04:34 PM
I think most of the time it's about power and control, but I also agree with RobJ's statement above--the psychology behind it isn't always going to be the same.

Mr Flibble
11-14-2010, 04:36 PM
Aha, I knew I'd read about this somewhere recently.

From the Yale (http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1981/3/81.03.06.x.html#c)curriculum.


One commonly believed myth is that rape is primarily a sexual act. Persons with this belief often unintentionally place the victim on trial. Her motives, her dress and her actions become suspect not only to law enforcement officials but also to her family and friends. <snip> However, throughout the past 20 years a variety of psychologists and sociologists have begun to study the psychology of rape and rapists. Their findings have shown that rape is a crime of violence, often regarded by the woman as a life-threatening act in which fear and humiliation are her dominant emotions. Sexual desire is less a motivation for the man than violent aggression.

Of course not all cases are the same, but it seems the vast majority are about power.

Wayne K
11-14-2010, 04:38 PM
Rape is violence. Sex is the weapon.

gothicangel
11-14-2010, 04:48 PM
Generally, no. I think it can be, but I think more motivation comes from the need for power, control, humilation and from basically wanting to hurt a woman in a fundamental way.

I just want to point out that men get raped too.

seun
11-14-2010, 04:50 PM
I just want to point out that men get raped too.

True.

Mr Flibble
11-14-2010, 05:45 PM
I just want to point out that men get raped too.


Indeed. Maybe that should read : basically wanting to hurt a person in a fundamental way.

Thing is, if it was about sexual urges, then you wouldn't get men who are married with healthy sex lives who go out and rape women/people.

I'm sure for some the initial impulse is a sexual urge. But what turns that to rape? So if you're on a date and the woman says no, you just take it anyway...because you can. And that 'because you can' is power. Because most men would say 'oh, okay' (well, maybe something a little stronger lol) even if they were about to burst.

scarletpeaches
11-14-2010, 05:46 PM
Rape is nothing to do with sex.

Phaeal
11-14-2010, 06:37 PM
Power play can be part of consensual sex as well. This is why human monogamy must be propped by elaborate religious and social conventions, and why these conventions continue to fail. This is why the sexual revolution hasn't made prostitution obsolete. Rape is extreme power play.

For that matter, the issues of power and control pervade all areas of human interaction. These can be as subtle as a slightly turned back or as blatant as murder. And everything in between.

But no. Rape isn't about the simple sexual urge. If simple sexual urges even persist much past infancy.

Margarita Skies
11-14-2010, 06:42 PM
Rape is about control and power, basically an "I am stronger than you, you can't fight me" kind of thing. And also, "I'm going to get back at you for not wanting me or for cheating on me" or for whatever. And men get raped, too, yes, that's the truth. No offense intended but I always thought that people still thought that only women got raped because the man is stronger. I would like to know your opinion on that. Anyone can drug and rape anyone because no one can defend themselves when they're drugged, no matter if it's a man or a woman.


Oh, and also, the way a woman dresses or what a woman does doesn't in any way justify the man raping her. Rapists often use that as an excuse.

gothicangel
11-14-2010, 07:06 PM
Rapists often use that as an excuse.

Juries too.

Rowan
11-14-2010, 09:03 PM
Note to Mods: I really didn't know where to put this, please move it if it should be elsewhere.

In another thread a member stated that rapist are often driven by their sexual urges/needs. Do you think rape is about sex?

I always understood that the act of rape was carried out with the need to control and humiliate the victim. And that sex was just a way to do it.

I decided to start a new thread to hear what others think on this topic. The other thread in question wasn't the place to do it.

This is my understanding from everything I've read. I believe FBI Profiler John Douglas covers this in his research. I've got his books--will try and look it up later. I believe he goes into the classifications of rape, one being individuals who can't feel arousal/sexual gratification without an unwilling sexual partner (sexual sadists, etc.). So in my mind--even under those circumstances, it's about fear, force and control.

Ah, here we go (Douglas): http://books.google.com/books?id=DIc9F5ZzO7YC&pg=PA293&lpg=PA293&dq=john+douglas+rape&source=bl&ots=2H35XM5A7B&sig=I98Es0UzXj7CD55bbUoi3Z4T4jo&hl=en&ei=nhbgTMTOF8Kblgewou3cAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=john%20douglas%20rape&f=false

scarletpeaches
11-14-2010, 09:09 PM
His books fascinate me.

It might have been in one of his, perhaps someone else's, but the point was made - rape is not about sex, and this is proven by people raping the opposite sex, the same sex, children, pensioners...if all they wanted was sex, they could go out and get it, for free (or the price of a few drinks).

It's not the sex and the orgasm they want, it's the power, and the only way they can get that is by overpowering someone. Usually someone vulnerable - a woman, a pensioner, a child.

Rowan
11-14-2010, 09:11 PM
His books fascinate me.

It might have been in one of his, perhaps someone else's, but the point was made - rape is not about sex, and this is proven by people raping the opposite sex, the same sex, children, pensioners...if all they wanted was sex, they could go out and get it, for free (or the price of a few drinks).

It's not the sex and the orgasm they want, it's the power, and the only way they can get that is by overpowering someone. Usually someone vulnerable - a woman, a pensioner, a child.

I couldn't walk by a white van in a parking lot after reading his books! He opened up my eyes about being truly aware of my surroundings.

scarletpeaches
11-14-2010, 09:15 PM
I have Manhunter, Journey into Darkness and The Cases that Haunt Us. Also read Obsession and The Anatomy of Motive.

Weird choice of reading material, but...I also read Ressler and and Hazelwood.

(And Danielle Steel, but I keep that quiet).

Margarita Skies
11-14-2010, 09:42 PM
Juries too.


Wow...better not comment any further.

Rowan
11-14-2010, 09:56 PM
I have Manhunter, Journey into Darkness and The Cases that Haunt Us. Also read Obsession and The Anatomy of Motive.

Weird choice of reading material, but...I also read Ressler and and Hazelwood.

(And Danielle Steel, but I keep that quiet).

Wow--just checked his site. Looks like he's got a bunch of new--well, new to me anyway--ones out (authored or co-authored). :)

Xelebes
11-14-2010, 10:11 PM
Rape is violence. Sex is the weapon.

This in a nut.

gothicangel
11-15-2010, 12:47 AM
Wow...better not comment any further.

Why?

This Amnesty International report is a few years old now, but I believe it is still relevant.

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=16618

whimsical rabbit
11-15-2010, 01:16 AM
What he said.


A rapist might justify it by thinking it was about sex (particularly if the victim is a wife/girlfriend and therefore should be, you know, obliging. In his head anyway) but I think most often (almost always, from what I've read) it's about power.

I'm quoting Julia to add my two cents here by expanding the thought on domestic violence. I've been researching the topic for years because this is mainly what I write about.

Indeed, sex is another tool in the domestic abuser's disposal to exercise his power and control over his partner, who he mainly sees as an extension of himself rather than a seperate individual (was that a redundancy? :Wha:) Sex is another way for him to affirm his control or ownership, as well as a form of punishment. He may hold his partner down during sex, be violently 'playful', may start having sex with her when she's actually asleep or make derogatory comments that are not part of a shared erotic game. Given that a lot of abusers also tend to be cheaters, this is more about domination than relief.

If you'd like titles for further reading feel free to pm me.

Lhun
11-15-2010, 01:49 AM
While the consensus of expert is indeed that rape is not committed because of sexual motives, there is one notable exception: date-rape. Especially since relatively recently, drugs have become common tools for this. Date-rape usually is about sex, as evident in the profile of both the rapists and the crime itself.

eqb
11-15-2010, 02:26 AM
Thing is, if it was about sexual urges, then you wouldn't get men who are married with healthy sex lives who go out and rape women/people.

Absolutely. There are plenty of rapists who are married, and who have healthy sex lives. They rape because they are angry, or they want to prove their superiority, or any number of reasons.

DancingMaenid
11-15-2010, 08:16 AM
While the consensus of expert is indeed that rape is not committed because of sexual motives, there is one notable exception: date-rape. Especially since relatively recently, drugs have become common tools for this. Date-rape usually is about sex, as evident in the profile of both the rapists and the crime itself.

I'd argue, though, that date rape still involves a desire for power over another person or at the very least a gross disregard for the rights and wants of the person. If it were just about sex, the same arguments apply -- if the date rapist could find a date, they could probably find someone to have consensual sex with them, as well. In some cases, the victim might even have consented to sex, making the rape unnecessary if that was the rapist's only aim.

To me, the idea that rape happens due to sexual motives implies that the sexual motives are what cause the crime. But millions of people have an interest in sex but never rape anyone. I think just the fact that someone would rape their date instead of trying for consensual sex suggests that there are deeper issues at play than wanting sex.

Zoombie
11-15-2010, 12:33 PM
Yeah, rape is about power and violence. Motivations for rape range from revenge, intimidation, controlling impulses...but sex? No. The sexual pleasure a rapist might get is secondary to the overriding desires.

JimmyB27
11-15-2010, 01:56 PM
How do we know all this? I mean, they can't have just asked rapists why they did it, can they?

Not being snarky, genuine question.

Mr Flibble
11-15-2010, 02:32 PM
I'd argue, though, that date rape still involves a desire for power over another person or at the very least a gross disregard for the rights and wants of the person. If it were just about sex, the same arguments apply -- if the date rapist could find a date, they could probably find someone to have consensual sex with them, as well. In some cases, the victim might even have consented to sex, making the rape unnecessary if that was the rapist's only aim.



Exactly.


How do we know all this? I mean, they can't have just asked rapists why they did it, can they?

Not being snarky, genuine question.

Yes, they do/have done, along with other psych tests. Then there is also other evidence - it's reasonably common for a rapist not to *ahem* leave a semen sample for example. Which kind of indicates getting off wasn't the aim. And other methods of research I'm sure. I haven't gone that far into it.

Bs_08
11-15-2010, 03:45 PM
i don't even know why i'm bothering to comment since everyone seems to have already decided that rape is only about control and dominance but i just wanted to add that i did major in criminal justice and in school we did learn that rape CAN just be about sex too.

of course a person who would force themselves on another person to satisfy sexual urges would have MENTAL ISSUES but are all of you guys really saying that people like that cant possibly exist? that it's always actually about control/dominance and never about someone who has mental issues and is horny and just wants to get off no matter what?

not to get graphic or disgusting but what about raping a baby, a comatose patient, a corpse? how is that control/dominance versus a sick fetish?

and, i know this is a matter of semantics but statutory rape (for example, 15 year old girl with 19 year old boyfriend) IS still considered rape but it can be argued that "the victim" was a willing participant and that "the rapist" was making love NOT asserting control/dominance.

scarletpeaches
11-15-2010, 03:48 PM
not to get graphic or disgusting but what about raping a baby, a comatose patient, a corpse? how is that control/dominance versus a sick fetish?I would have thought that was obvious.

They're exerting control over someone else in the only way they can - by choosing someone weaker, or who can't fight back. A baby, a comatose victim, a corpse.

If the only way you can exert control over someone is to force them to have sex with you, you're not going to choose someone who stands much of a chance of overpowering you.

If that were the case, we'd see weedy little sex pests taking on six-foot bruisers with muscles like Popeye.

Bs_08
11-15-2010, 04:24 PM
yeah see, the keyword there is *force* , how are you going to "force" any of those three examples? one's dead, one's permanently passed out, none of the three can fight back. it's about as effective as "forcing" a teddy bear. that's the exact reason why i used those examples. necrophilia and those kinds of fetishes are about sexual gratification, NOT dominance/force (though i suppose, depending on the criminals fantasies, it could be about that too, they could be imagining the corpse/comatose victim is fighting back, but so can a guy who is having sex with his girlfriend.)

check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraphilia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biastophilia -rape fetish
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frotteurism -rubbing self in a sexual way on non consenting people fetish
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necrophilia - dead people fetish
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somnophilia - sleeping partner fetish

jaksen
11-15-2010, 04:46 PM
I sometimes wonder about the evolutionary basis of rape. Were Cro-Magnons or earlier people just trying to assert their power and dominance? Or was it simply one more way to pass one's genes on? Okay, she's not willing; okay no problem I'll do it anyhow. You assert control over a woman and she's yours, and so are the offspring which result.

She's alone in the field. She 'belongs' to someone else in the tribe, but there she is so okay. Now it's your genes passed on, not his. There's got to be a sexual and procreative urge in there somewhere, that over time has gotten corrupted or changed.

I can't second-guess the motives of Cro-Magnons, or those who came after or before, but there's a model for it in the animal world in which male animals force themselves on often unwilling female animals. (This doesn't happen in all cases.) Also, in some species, when two males fight for 'dominance' and control over a herd or group of females, a third male is often on the sidelines helping himself.

I just think the whole topic is very complex and simple explanations just don't fully explain it.

Lhun
11-15-2010, 07:19 PM
To me, the idea that rape happens due to sexual motives implies that the sexual motives are what cause the crime. But millions of people have an interest in sex but never rape anyone. I think just the fact that someone would rape their date instead of trying for consensual sex suggests that there are deeper issues at play than wanting sex.Obviously, motives alone don't cause any crime. Everyone has plenty of motives to commit crimes, but most humans have enough of a grasp on ethics to not commit them. Millions of people would like to have a Ferrari but never steal a car (or rob a bank to buy one).
To commit a crime, especially a crime against a person (as opposed to say, petty vandalism or impulse driven crimes) requires a certain kind of psychology on part of the criminal. But the motive is still a relevant part.
In the case of date-rape, a blatant disregard for the victim as a person is certainly necessary, but violating the rights of the victim doesn't make a crime about that violence. Theft violates the rights of the victim as well.
Date-rape is a crime of convenience, the motive is sexual, and drugging and raping a victim (whether the drug is Flunitrazepam or Alcohol) is seen as an easy and consequence free way to get what the criminal wants.
I'd even argue that the criminals attitude toward the victim is decidedly different from violent rape. A criminal who rapes a victim to demonstrate their superior power has to acknowledge the victim as a person, that the victims rights are being violated. Otherwise the crime makes no sense, one can't assert dominance over an object. In date-rape crimes on the other hand, the victims rights and wishes are seen as immaterial, the victim is treated as an object the criminal can use at his (or her i guess) convenience.

Susan Littlefield
11-15-2010, 07:39 PM
Note to Mods: I really didn't know where to put this, please move it if it should be elsewhere.

In another thread a member stated that rapist are often driven by their sexual urges/needs. Do you think rape is about sex?

I always understood that the act of rape was carried out with the need to control and humiliate the victim. And that sex was just a way to do it.

I decided to start a new thread to hear what others think on this topic. The other thread in question wasn't the place to do it.

Rape has nothing to do with sex. It's about power and control.

jaksen
11-15-2010, 07:54 PM
Rape has nothing to do with sex. It's about power and control.

I know emotions run high on this subject. Some people have very intimate and personal knowledge on this topic.

But I still wonder what the sexual component in it is, because you can exert power and control in other ways, too. Why is sex involved? Is it because it's easy, humiliating, opposes society's 'norms,' and so on?

An army in medieval times, plowing across Europe, raping, killing, pillaging - their motive? Subjugation of a population, elimination of potential enemies or threats, but ALSO what a professor of mine once called 'gene-dropping.' A powerful and successful rapist leaves dozens and dozens of his genes behind as he moves through the countryside with his fellow soldiers.

I often wonder about the evolutionary basis for any sort of behavior, whether it be deviant or benign.

SafetyDance
11-15-2010, 08:45 PM
I think it depends on the rapist and what he thinks "consent" is.

If he thinks that she likes him, and she has engaged in other kinds of sex acts with him, he might well be motivated by sex (among other things, of course). He would also be motivated by a manipulative intellect and a moral stupidity, mind.

Rowan
11-15-2010, 08:51 PM
yeah see, the keyword there is *force* , how are you going to "force" any of those three examples? one's dead, one's permanently passed out, none of the three can fight back. it's about as effective as "forcing" a teddy bear. that's the exact reason why i used those examples. necrophilia and those kinds of fetishes are about sexual gratification, NOT dominance/force (though i suppose, depending on the criminals fantasies, it could be about that too, they could be imagining the corpse/comatose victim is fighting back, but so can a guy who is having sex with his girlfriend.)



It's "forced" because these individuals (baby or comatose patient) can't offer consent. IMHO, necrophilia doesn't fall into the rape category (we're talking CORPSES here)--it's a very disturbing illness... ;)

As for your mention of statutory rape--totally different issue (apples and oranges), as you said, and not really applicable to the OP, IMHO:


Statutory rape differs from forcible rape in that overt force or threat need not be present. The laws presume coercion, because a minor or mentally challenged (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_retardation) adult is legally incapable of giving consent to the act.

ETA: You said someone forcing themselves on someone else (to satisfy sexual urges) is likely to have "mental issues". Then it would seem to me the sexual act isn't entirely about "sexual gratification", but driven by deviant behaviour, and indicative of impulse control issues, etc.



Posted by JimmyB27:
How do we know all this? I mean, they can't have just asked rapists why they did it, can they? Not being snarky, genuine question.


As I mentioned upstream--FBI Profiler John Douglas interviewed serial killers, serial rapists, etc. while conducting research for his books. I linked to one example in a previous post.
(I'm sure he's not the only criminologist to conduct research in this area!) :)

Phaeal
11-15-2010, 09:28 PM
[QUOTE=jaksen;5512720]An army in medieval times, plowing across Europe, raping, killing, pillaging - their motive? Subjugation of a population, elimination of potential enemies or threats, but ALSO what a professor of mine once called 'gene-dropping.' A powerful and successful rapist leaves dozens and dozens of his genes behind as he moves through the countryside with his fellow soldiers.
QUOTE]

Gene-dropping is also a form of domination and control, whether by rape or not. Domination and control of the genetic pool, as it were.

RemusShepherd
11-15-2010, 09:54 PM
Note to Mods: I really didn't know where to put this, please move it if it should be elsewhere.

In another thread a member stated that rapist are often driven by their sexual urges/needs. Do you think rape is about sex?

I always understood that the act of rape was carried out with the need to control and humiliate the victim. And that sex was just a way to do it.

The psychology of sexual assault varies from person to person. There are three main motivations for a sexual predator.

By far the most common is Power. A predator with insecurities feels the need to manifest power over another human being to feel whole; often those insecurities are sexual and so they must dominate someone sexually. These predators control and humiliate their victims, and can lapse easily into sadism.

The next most common motivation is Fantasy. A person who is under stress in other aspects of his life may feel the compulsion to retreat into a fantasy world where he is successful and loved. These are the stalkers, the ones who dress up their unwilling victims and roleplay with them. This kind of predator is trying to create a fantasy or recreate a previous idealized time in their life. The victim is just a prop in their act.

The least common motivation is sexual release. These are the date rapists, the ones who were told 'No' but 'thought she meant yes'. They let their sexual urges override their good judgement. This kind of rapist is rarer, especially in modern times when women are taught early on that they have the right to say no.

So I have to say no -- rape is usually not about sex. Power and dreams are as seductive as the flesh, to some types.

SafetyDance
11-15-2010, 10:19 PM
The psychology of sexual assault varies from person to person. There are three main motivations for a sexual predator.

By far the most common is Power. A predator with insecurities feels the need to manifest power over another human being to feel whole; often those insecurities are sexual and so they must dominate someone sexually. These predators control and humiliate their victims, and can lapse easily into sadism.

The next most common motivation is Fantasy. A person who is under stress in other aspects of his life may feel the compulsion to retreat into a fantasy world where he is successful and loved. These are the stalkers, the ones who dress up their unwilling victims and roleplay with them. This kind of predator is trying to create a fantasy or recreate a previous idealized time in their life. The victim is just a prop in their act.

The least common motivation is sexual release. These are the date rapists, the ones who were told 'No' but 'thought she meant yes'. They let their sexual urges override their good judgement. This kind of rapist is rarer, especially in modern times when women are taught early on that they have the right to say no.

So I have to say no -- rape is usually not about sex. Power and dreams are as seductive as the flesh, to some types.

All of that begs the question -- what does the rapist think sex is? Or is about? Evidently sex is part of it in some fashion because they get aroused enough to perform.

LBlankenship
11-15-2010, 10:21 PM
Subjugation of a population, elimination of potential enemies or threats, but ALSO what a professor of mine once called 'gene-dropping.' A powerful and successful rapist leaves dozens and dozens of his genes behind as he moves through the countryside with his fellow soldiers.

Assuming, of course, that those babies are kept and raised...

Kenn
11-15-2010, 10:27 PM
All of that begs the question -- what does the rapist think sex is? Or is about? Evidently sex is part of it in some fashion because they get aroused enough to perform.
Exactly.

RemusShepherd
11-15-2010, 10:36 PM
All of that begs the question -- what does the rapist think sex is? Or is about? Evidently sex is part of it in some fashion because they get aroused enough to perform.

First, the rapist often doesn't get aroused enough to perform. That's where the lists of foreign objects come from in rape casework.

Second, those who do perform do not get off on the sex. They get off on the feeling of dominating another human being, or on the bliss of having their fantasy fulfilled.

Ask a boxer or any other person experience with hand-to-hand combat if they've ever gotten an erection while fighting. The answer in many cases is yes. Violence and the feeling of power over another person is arousing. For some broken people who become rapists, it may be the only form of arousal they are capable of.

maggi90w1
11-15-2010, 10:53 PM
Ask a boxer or any other person experience with hand-to-hand combat if they've ever gotten an erection while fighting.
Seriously? That's so weird...

Mr Flibble
11-15-2010, 10:56 PM
An army in medieval times, plowing across Europe, raping, killing, pillaging - their motive? Subjugation of a population, elimination of potential enemies or threats, but ALSO what a professor of mine once called 'gene-dropping.' A powerful and successful rapist leaves dozens and dozens of his genes behind as he moves through the countryside with his fellow soldiers.



Gene dropping doesn't account for the fact that say Vikings most probably (I can't find out 100% - I'm researching at the mo, and trying like heck to make sure it doesn't rear its ugly head -fnarr fnarr- in my WIP. But it seems likely from what I've read) also raped men that they'd beaten in battle. Primarily the reason, whether it was against men or women, was 'Ha ha we won, loser'. I am strong, you are weak. Power.


i don't even know why i'm bothering to comment since everyone seems to have already decided that rape is only about control and dominance but i just wanted to add that i did major in criminal justice and in school we did learn that rape CAN just be about sex too.


I don't think anyone's said it can't be about sex. Just that it's most likely by far to be about power (even when sex is the primary motive, there's often an element of power there too.)

dclary
11-15-2010, 11:10 PM
Assuming, of course, that those babies are kept and raised...


http://www.brighthub.com/science/genetics/articles/21440.aspx

backslashbaby
11-15-2010, 11:20 PM
Some people have an abnormal connection of violence to sexual stimulation that can be conditioned together while growing up. So, definitely, it can be about sex+violence. Just sex? It'd have to be at very least sex+antisocial traits (date rape). That's close enough to 'power' for me, but I can see the distinction. It's still not just sex.

Sex+delusions could be the stalkery one. That seems the least likely to be about actual power. But that's kind of batsh!t crazy, so it needs to be on a different axis :D

[PS - I finally got rid of a delusional stalker when he asked me my height, weight and size. The numbers I made up blew the fantasy, and he left me alone in short order. I'm not kidding!]

SafetyDance
11-15-2010, 11:22 PM
First, the rapist often doesn't get aroused enough to perform. That's where the lists of foreign objects come from in rape casework.

Second, those who do perform do not get off on the sex. They get off on the feeling of dominating another human being, or on the bliss of having their fantasy fulfilled.

Ask a boxer or any other person experience with hand-to-hand combat if they've ever gotten an erection while fighting. The answer in many cases is yes. Violence and the feeling of power over another person is arousing. For some broken people who become rapists, it may be the only form of arousal they are capable of.

Fantasy fulfilled is still to do with sex though, no? It's just not consensual sex. I'm not so sure that we can say rape is nothing to do with sex, on general terms. It's to do with the rapist's perception of what that is (and the fact that it is skewed in one fashion or another).

Even people who aren't rapists view sex in different ways.

Bs_08
11-16-2010, 12:09 AM
It's "forced" because these individuals (baby or comatose patient) can't offer consent. IMHO, necrophilia doesn't fall into the rape category (we're talking CORPSES here)--it's a very disturbing illness... ;)

the teddybear can't offer consent either. is it being forced?
the necrophilia thing, while legally not rape, is still illegal and does involve a human being having sex with someone they arent supposed to be having sex with. i thought exploring that mentality might help offer some answers in this case.



As for your mention of statutory rape--totally different issue (apples and oranges), as you said, and not really applicable to the OP, IMHO:

it's not though. people are talking about "all rape" and statutory rape is a part of "all rape" i pointed it out because i wanted people to remember that it's NOT "all rape" or "all rapists" who are on about power/dominance/control.

(not that staturory rapist are all angels anyway, imagine if i changed my scenario to a 10 year old boy and a 45 year old woman?) now we're in pedophilia land, which, besides being RAPE is also about SEXUAL ATTRACTION to children.

to say that rape is only about control/dominance seems like it completely negates the fact that pedophiles are SEXUALLY ATTRACTED to their victims.



ETA: You said someone forcing themselves on someone else (to satisfy sexual urges) is likely to have "mental issues". Then it would seem to me the sexual act isn't entirely about "sexual gratification", but driven by deviant behaviour, and indicative of impulse control issues, etc.

As I mentioned upstream--FBI Profiler John Douglas interviewed serial killers, serial rapists, etc. while conducting research for his books. I linked to one example in a previous post.
(I'm sure he's not the only criminologist to conduct research in this area!) :)


it feels like you didn't click on the links i pasted at the bottom of my last post. psychiatrists have determined that certain human beings do actually get sexually turned on by committing rape/ rubbing themselves on unwilling people/ect and pursue these activities to satisfy their sexual urges.

I read the link you posted last time but i just read it again to be sure,

He is talking about rapists GRATIFYING A SEXUAL NEED. (you pointed out that in your mind it's still about fear/force/control because the partners are unwilling but from what i read, He doesn't say that. he mainly just talks about the sexual need.)

i think OP would greatly benefit from reading one of John Douglas's books. he seems to have a million of them.

RemusShepherd
11-16-2010, 12:20 AM
Fantasy fulfilled is still to do with sex though, no? It's just not consensual sex.

It can be but often is not. The rapist may be fantasizing about being part of a happy relationship, and sex is just something that people in happy relationships do. ("Now be a good princess and lie still.") The rapist may be fantasizing about a mystical connection to their victim, and sex is the physical representation of that connection. ("We're soulmates! I'm a part of you!") The rapist may imagine that sex is the way to prove their emotional bond to the victim. ("I'll make you enjoy this, then you'll realize that you love me.")

It's not the physical act that causes arousal, it's the emotional components of the fantasy.


I'm not so sure that we can say rape is nothing to do with sex, on general terms. It's to do with the rapist's perception of what that is (and the fact that it is skewed in one fashion or another).

Saying 'it's not about sex' is a bit imprecise. To these predators, sex is inextricably linked to their need for control or for their delusions. But it has no connection to the physical sexual urge. It's an emotional need of which the sexual act is just a part. Sometimes a very small part, especially for dysfunctional predators.

RemusShepherd
11-16-2010, 12:31 AM
to say that rape is only about control/dominance seems like it completely negates the fact that pedophiles are SEXUALLY ATTRACTED to their victims.

The two are tied together. A control-based pedophile is sexually attracted to children because children can be controlled and dominated. The sexual attraction does not appear out of nowhere and then dictate the predator's actions. Some event in the predator's past taught him that domination was the only valid means of sexual satisfaction. Anticipation of the act is what arouses him, not the physical qualities of the victim (except those that allow the act, such as weakness and innocence.)

Kenn
11-16-2010, 12:34 AM
Ask a boxer or any other person experience with hand-to-hand combat if they've ever gotten an erection while fighting. The answer in many cases is yes.
Brings a new meaning to below-the-belt, doesn't it;)

I think part of the problem is that so many things are described as rape that you cannot generalise. There is the 'Jack-the Ripper' type who must be aroused by extreme violence. Then there is the person who wants to have sex with as many people as possible, and doesn't care about, or is unaware of, the suffering they are causing. Then you have the people who genuinely misread signals and don't really set out to hurt anyone.

It is a broad spectrum, but the underlying aspect must be sex rather than violence.

SafetyDance
11-16-2010, 01:43 AM
It can be but often is not. The rapist may be fantasizing about being part of a happy relationship, and sex is just something that people in happy relationships do. ("Now be a good princess and lie still.") The rapist may be fantasizing about a mystical connection to their victim, and sex is the physical representation of that connection. ("We're soulmates! I'm a part of you!") The rapist may imagine that sex is the way to prove their emotional bond to the victim. ("I'll make you enjoy this, then you'll realize that you love me.")

It's not the physical act that causes arousal, it's the emotional components of the fantasy.



Saying 'it's not about sex' is a bit imprecise. To these predators, sex is inextricably linked to their need for control or for their delusions. But it has no connection to the physical sexual urge. It's an emotional need of which the sexual act is just a part. Sometimes a very small part, especially for dysfunctional predators.

I understand all of that, thank you -- but plenty of people who aren't rapists think about sex in this way too. Ergo, I'm still not clear on what the difference is other than that what they do is not consensual. There are plenty of people around with sad delusions about their relationships.

Are we saying that rapists don't desire their victims? It will be different for all of them -- I can see that desire is not neccessary for the act -- but even from what you've described, for some it will play a large part. There are other components...but there are in all of our sexual relationships.

SafetyDance
11-16-2010, 01:45 AM
It is a broad spectrum, but the underlying aspect must be sex rather than violence.

I might be wrong here, but aren't sex and violence governed by the same hormones? Testosterone, adrenaline, serotonin etc.

This is why I don't see how we can say that it's not about "sex" per se. It is evidently about more than the physical act, but then it is for a lot of us anyway, and we're not rapists.

RemusShepherd
11-16-2010, 02:29 AM
I understand all of that, thank you -- but plenty of people who aren't rapists think about sex in this way too. Ergo, I'm still not clear on what the difference is other than that what they do is not consensual. There are plenty of people around with sad delusions about their relationships.

Yep. The difference is that it is much more important for the predatory rapist. It becomes the root of their self-identity and self-esteem.

A control rapist may self-identify as an attractive person able to get any partner they desire, or as a strong and virile person, or as a person with great social power. For most people if their self-identity is challenged they wallow for a while then shrug it off. A predator, however, is unable to re-establish their self-esteem unless they perform an act of domination that proves their power to themselves. Similarly, a delusional predator may identify as a husband, a Don Juan, or as a spiritual part of their victim's life, and they need to commit rape to re-establish that connection and rebuild their self-esteem.

Normal people are able to bounce back from adversity. Not the sexual predator. Without the act of rape, these people spiral into destructive depression or anger. Rape is a socially unacceptable form of self-medication for them.


Are we saying that rapists don't desire their victims?

They do, but in the same way you might wish to lose weight or win the lottery. Either will improve your self-esteem. Now imagine that the doctor told you to lose weight or die, you just split your pants and your bathroom scale broke through the floor. Losing weight seems like an imperative to you now. That's how rape appears to a predator whose self-identity is challenged.

The best example of this I've ever found in popular culture is in the song 'Closer' by Nine Inch Nails:


Help me -- To escape my reason.
Help me -- It's your sex I can smell.
Help me -- You make me perfect.
Help me become somebody else.
I want to fuck you like an animal...

The first line is the cry of a predator constrained by society, who commits rape as a means of breaking free and re-establishing his self-identity as a strong, independent man. The second line humiliates the victim and establishes dominance. The third and fourth lines show a delusion that the act of sex will transform the rapist into something better and more pure. The predator's self-esteem, social status, identity and future are at risk -- given these incentives, how could they not commit rape? That's the way these broken people think.

Rowan
11-16-2010, 04:10 AM
the teddybear can't offer consent either. is it being forced?*
the necrophilia thing, while legally not rape, is still illegal and does involve a human being having sex with someone they arent supposed to be having sex with. i thought exploring that mentality might help offer some answers in this case. I think it's something along the lines of defiling a corpse. I never said it was 'legal'. But this is way off topic....

it's not though. people are talking about "all rape" and statutory rape is a part of "all rape" i pointed it out because i wanted people to remember that it's NOT "all rape" or "all rapists" who are on about power/dominance/control. But if you force yourself on someone who is either mentally (child), physically (weak or mentally handicapped) unable to consent, you are in a sense exercising dominance, power and control. Fear is a means of dominance, power and control.

(not that staturory rapist are all angels anyway, imagine if i changed my scenario to a 10 year old boy and a 45 year old woman?) now we're in pedophilia land, which, besides being RAPE is also about SEXUAL ATTRACTION to children. Again, this isn't straight up RAPE but an entirely different venue of sexual deviance and criminal behaviour. I'm not going to get into the issue of children and "consent" because we circled the drain in P&CE on this topic already....it wasn't pleasant. :( But it's still forcing someone who can't consent to have sexual relations, whether the perp gets off sexually or not.

to say that rape is only about control/dominance seems like it completely negates the fact that pedophiles are SEXUALLY ATTRACTED to their victims. Ditto (above)

it feels like you didn't click on the links i pasted at the bottom of my last post. psychiatrists have determined that certain human beings do actually get sexually turned on by committing rape/ rubbing themselves on unwilling people/ect and pursue these activities to satisfy their sexual urges. I skimmed--sorry, I work FT. :) "Certain human beings" as in those who aren't 100% sane? ;) Okay, but they get turned on by raping UNWILLING people. It's not sex for sexual gratification but getting turned on by raping an UNWILLING person. Am I missing something here? So again as described, we have FORCE and the exertion of POWER over another (manipulation). It's not consensual sex.

I read the link you posted last time but i just read it again to be sure,

He is talking about rapists GRATIFYING A SEXUAL NEED. (you pointed out that in your mind it's still about fear/force/control because the partners are unwilling but from what i read, He doesn't say that. he mainly just talks about the sexual need.) But they're still raping unwilling partners and to me, that's all about power/dominance and control. If you just want to satisfy your sexual urges, you hook up and have sex. You don't have to force someone and create fear to get off. I've read almost all of Douglas' books and he goes into detail about this. Rape is not sex.

i think OP would greatly benefit from reading one of John Douglas's books. he seems to have a million of them.
Agreed. :) He's a brilliant man!

*I'm sorry, but you can't rape a teddy bear. It's an inanimate object--at best a prop or "sex toy". You can't rape a dildo either. ;)

Bs_08
11-16-2010, 04:15 AM
The two are tied together. A control-based pedophile is sexually attracted to children because children can be controlled and dominated. The sexual attraction does not appear out of nowhere and then dictate the predator's actions. Some event in the predator's past taught him that domination was the only valid means of sexual satisfaction. Anticipation of the act is what arouses him, not the physical qualities of the victim (except those that allow the act, such as weakness and innocence.)

i had to look "control-based pedophile" up and only this page came up. where are you getting your info from?

if 'anticipation of the act' was the main thing then it wouldn't matter who the victim was, a man, a woman, an elderly person, a comatose person, a mentally handicapped person, but no, pedophiles distinctly prefer young boys or girls because they are sexually attracted to the victim or at least the fantasy idea of the victim.

a sexy woman who looks like kim kardashian will not have the same effect on a pedophile that a 5 year old boy will. the sexual attraction determines who he chooses to rape.

Bs_08
11-16-2010, 04:28 AM
rowan,

it just feels like you don't want to see my point and that you've decided that rape is ONLY about force/dominance. i really don't care enough to convince you otherwise. i'll just say again that in school we learned that it can also be about sex and even the link you provided it says the same thing, "sexual gratification."

"rape is not sex" to the victim, rape CAN BE sex to the rapist.

Rowan
11-16-2010, 04:50 AM
rowan,

it just feels like you don't want to see my point and that you've decided that rape is ONLY about force/dominance. i really don't care enough to convince you otherwise*. i'll just say again that in school we learned that it can also be about sex and even the link you provided it says the same thing, "sexual gratification."

"rape is not sex" to the victim, rape CAN BE sex to the rapist.

I see your point--it just happens I don't agree with you. Even if motivated by a sexual urge or a need to gratify oneself sexually, rape is still about force, because the person is forcing another person to do something against their will (without consent). Sure, the perp might do it to get off and they might very well get off. It's still not consensual. Of course it's a "sexual act" (physically speaking). I'm speaking to what drives one to perform the act and that's a need to dominate, control, humiliate, overpower, etc. FORCE and the fact these individuals need fear/etc. in order to be sexually satisfied (but sexual gratification is secondary).

But that's my opinion and you have your opinion. Fair enough.
College is great--been there and done that too. Real world experience is an entirely different thing. :)

*That's fine with me--I've been at work all day and don't feel much like circling the drain either.

RemusShepherd
11-16-2010, 09:49 AM
i had to look "control-based pedophile" up and only this page came up. where are you getting your info from?

I was using that as shorthand for a pedophile whose primary motivation is control and domination of their victim.

This info is from research notes I made some years ago when researching sexual deviancy. The primary reference I have listed for these particular notes is a journal article titled "Essay on the Diagnosis and Nature of Paraphilia", by Levine. Most of this is also in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, also known as DSM-IV.


if 'anticipation of the act' was the main thing then it wouldn't matter who the victim was,

I'm not sure how you read that into it. Anticipation of the act includes anticipation of the targeted victim.


a sexy woman who looks like kim kardashian will not have the same effect on a pedophile that a 5 year old boy will. the sexual attraction determines who he chooses to rape.

The emotional need determines who he chooses to rape. Kim Kardashian isn't defenseless, innocent, or a reminder of an earlier time in the pedophile's history. A child is. It's an emotional compulsion that drives the pedophile to rape, and it manifests as sexual attraction, but sex is not the genesis of the emotion nor is it the pedophile's goal. The goal is self-identity, self-esteem, and/or the completion of a fantasy retreat from the stressful outside world.

Kenn
11-16-2010, 04:52 PM
I might be wrong here, but aren't sex and violence governed by the same hormones? Testosterone, adrenaline, serotonin etc...
The hormones do affect both and more importantly they affect mood. The hormonal system is pretty complex and there are all sorts of things that turn it on and off for different people. While some aspects of rape might be seen as a subset of violence, it would be a pretty unsuccessful rapist that did not get turned on by the deed.

The problem that I have with the arguments on here is that they are not objective. I fully agree with the points being made, but only up to the point that they are for a preconceived notion of a rapist. You can only psychoanalyse someone if you have a personality profile for them. I don't see where that personality profile has come from. As with everything else, there will not be a one-size-fits-all answer.

Now a really troubling fact is that a lot of women supposedly fantasise about being raped. Don't ask me to explain that as I am not a woman (or a rapist, I might add!). We are complex creatures indeed when it comes to sex.

backslashbaby
11-16-2010, 10:43 PM
There have been tons of studies done on rapists and on those turned on by violence and rape. In the most objective, erections are physically monitored by a device.

With many of these folks, clothed torture causes erections, whereas porn doesn't.

Since it's an erection, and the desire is sexual, I'd call those cases sexual. But normal sexual things aren't the motivator. So it's not like it's sex, if that makes any sense :)

Humans can tie up sexual gratification in lots of different fetishes, for lack of a better term. I'd imagine you could tie sexual gratification to airplanes taking off if you wanted to. It depends on the individual's history. I think it's fair to say that rape isn't about sex the way normal people define sex.

maggi90w1
11-16-2010, 11:48 PM
The emotional need determines who he chooses to rape. Kim Kardashian isn't defenseless, innocent, or a reminder of an earlier time in the pedophile's history. A child is. It's an emotional compulsion that drives the pedophile to rape
I don't agree. I doubt a pedophile would be interested in a mentally impaired person with the mental and emotional capability of a child.
Pedophiles are turned on by children. Not by innocences or defenselessness
It's like saying the only thing that draws straight women to man is the need for strength and dominance. It's not. Straight women desire man. Pedophiles desire children. The emotional aspect certainly plays a part, but it's not the determining factor for a sexual orientation.

Kenn
11-16-2010, 11:59 PM
BSB, I know what you are saying, but you are getting into deep water when you say 'normal sexual things'. Very ordinary people have the whackiest fantasies (not that they live them out mind). For example, as I mentioned earlier, it is widely quoted that many women fantasise about enforced sex (note: apparently far fewer do when asked about rape, however, but don't ask me why!). I expect in their fanatasies they have distorted the truth so the so-called 'rapist' is more of an Adonis and an object of desire. Maybe it is a combination of wanting to feel desired and dominated, I don't know, but it is supposedly a common fantasy. Not that actual rape would be anything like that of course. My point is that 'normal' is how you define it and it will probably be surprising how many people get aroused at torture scenes in films, boxing matches, etc., and I am not just talking about men here. The important thing is not that they do, but that they do not go out and commit sexual offences to get sexual gratification.

PS I am intruiged by your stalker. Tell More!

backslashbaby
11-17-2010, 10:49 AM
Oh, definitely. I mean those who would act on these things. It seems like it must include abnormal impulse control or something, too. It's a strange crime when you think about it. I know I'd rather it just be about men who could see a hooker or something instead. I'd donate.

My fantasy-stalker? Just a schizophrenic dude, as it turns out. I made the mistake of giving him my name in the wine aisle of the grocery store -- just a polite chat. He seemed fine that briefly. We talked about wine.

He looked me up and created a whole fantasy life that he thought we were having. It was terribly difficult trying to figure out what you say to someone like that. He knew my address. It was very scary, actually.

He started getting angry with me for things related to his delusions: "I know you've been talking to my dad and laughing about me."

Eventually, the biggest thing that worked was that conversation about my height and weight. So bizarre that that's what made him lose interest the most, but I guess he didn't want to stalk an obese girl. I also convinced him that he'd broken up with me, over about a week. Very, very odd.

Kenn
11-17-2010, 04:21 PM
Yikes! It sounds like you handled that pretty well. I think I would have described it as terrifying, rather than scary. The real frightening part must have been dealing with someone who was irrational.

Maybe the moral of the story is to stick to the beer isles;)

Lhun
11-17-2010, 06:34 PM
I see your point--it just happens I don't agree with you. Even if motivated by a sexual urge or a need to gratify oneself sexually, rape is still about force, because the person is forcing another person to do something against their will (without consent).That is not sound reasoning. You're saying that because an element of force is involved in rape, that has to be the dominant motive but there's no reason to assume that. By the same logic, robbery is all about force, not about the money, since force is involved in robberies as well.

wax_and_wick
11-18-2010, 12:48 AM
There are so many types of rape - and motivation - that it's an impossible task to generalize. If this is research for a specific incident in a novel, I think its safe to say that motivation has far more to do with the type of character you have than what "typical" motivation for rape is. Does the character have a troubled past that fuels his (or her!) twisted acts of "vengeance"? Is this person a sadist? Is this person delusional with a stalkerish idea that the victim is a soul mate? Is this person so purely selfish and unfeeling that rape is a means to satisfy a biological urge, damn the consequences, and the victims are just people who are handily close enough and easy enough to control?

There are as many motives for rape as there are for murder, most likely... but I think that murder, more often, stems from motivations that are more understandable to "normal" people - usually simple emotions (greed, jealousy, anger, even fear).

Rowan
11-18-2010, 02:15 AM
That is not sound reasoning. You're saying that because an element of force is involved in rape, that has to be the dominant motive but there's no reason to assume that. By the same logic, robbery is all about force, not about the money, since force is involved in robberies as well.


First, that's not what I'm saying and I'm not assuming anything. Please don't misrepresent me. Perhaps you should read the portion of my post you chose not to quote?
http://books.google.com/books?id=DIc9F5ZzO7YC&pg=PA299&lpg=PA299&dq=rape+classifications+Douglas&source=bl&ots=2H4YQK3y1J&sig=YEonIj3Fc5NnTZyzRIn7czri2Zo&hl=en&ei=klPkTJbsDoGKlwfYy9CTDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=rape%20classifications%20Douglas&f=false


Rape and sexual assault include offenses in which victims are forced or coerced to participate in sexual activity. Physical violence may or may not be involved.


Per FBI Profiler John Douglas. I suppose you'll argue his reasoning isn't sound as well? I think you need to check your own reasoning (logic) and the validity of your own argument, which makes little to no sense.

But let's take it a step further: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/rape

Rape: A criminal offense defined in most states as forcible sexual relations with a person against that person's will.
I'm done here--if you don't agree with me and the legal definitions (etc.), that's fine, but this is getting ridiculous.


Posted by wax and wick:
There are so many types of rape - and motivation - that it's an impossible task to generalize. If this is research for a specific incident in a novel, I think its safe to say that motivation has far more to do with the type of character you have than what "typical" motivation for rape is. Does the character have a troubled past that fuels his (or her!) twisted acts of "vengeance"? Is this person a sadist? Is this person delusional with a stalkerish idea that the victim is a soul mate? Is this person so purely selfish and unfeeling that rape is a means to satisfy a biological urge, damn the consequences, and the victims are just people who are handily close enough and easy enough to control?

There are as many motives for rape as there are for murder, most likely... but I think that murder, more often, stems from motivations that are more understandable to "normal" people - usually simple emotions (greed, jealousy, anger, even fear).




Source -- John Douglas:
Rapists tend to fall into four basic categories, for example, the "power-reassurance rapist" (driven by feelings of inadequacy), the "exploitive" rapist (impulsive and overtly macho), the "anger" rapist (who uses sex to displace his rage) and, cruelest of all, the "sadistic" rapist, who "simply gets off on hurting people."

Lhun
11-18-2010, 03:31 AM
First, that's not what I'm saying and I'm not assuming anything. Please don't misrepresent me. Perhaps you should read the portion of my post you chose not to quote?Sure:
Sure, the perp might do it to get off and they might very well get off. It's still not consensual. Of course it's a "sexual act" (physically speaking). I'm speaking to what drives one to perform the act and that's a need to dominate, control, humiliate, overpower, etc. FORCE and the fact these individuals need fear/etc. in order to be sexually satisfied (but sexual gratification is secondary).Doesn't look to me like you're saying anything else than in the first two sentences. You're giving a little longer explanation, but the statement is the same.

Per FBI Profiler John Douglas. I suppose you'll argue his reasoning isn't sound as well?It's not an argument, it's a definition. There is no reasoning involved (or required) in a definition.
You were saying that "rape is still about force, because the person is forcing another person to do something against their will." Or in the latter half of your post "I'm speaking to what drives one to perform the act and that's a need to dominate, control, humiliate, overpower, etc."
You are making the argument that because force is involved in all rapes (as per the definition) therefore it is about force, not sex. The latter is a statement about what motivates the rapist, and it does not logically follow from the former. The legal definition of what constitutes a certain crime, and the question what motivates a criminal to commit such a crime are quite separate matters. Which is quite easy to see if you use the same argument, but substitute robbery for rape. Force is part of the legal definition of robbery as well (or it'd be theft) but no-one would suggest that it means all robbers are motivated by that.

I think you need to check your own reasoning (logic) and the validity of your own argument, which makes little to no sense.That's why it's called reductio ad absurdum.

Rowan
11-18-2010, 05:22 AM
Sure. Doesn't look to me like you're saying anything else than in the first two sentences. You're giving a little longer explanation, but the statement is the same.
It's not an argument, it's a definition. There is no reasoning involved (or required) in a definition.
(1) You were saying that "rape is still about force, because the person is forcing another person to do something against their will." Or in the latter half of your post "I'm speaking to what drives one to perform the act and that's a need to dominate, control, humiliate, overpower, etc."
You are making the argument that because force is involved in all rapes (as per the definition) therefore it is about force, not sex. (2) The latter is a statement about what motivates the rapist, and it does not logically follow from the former. The legal definition of what constitutes a certain crime, and the question what motivates a criminal to commit such a crime are quite separate matters. Which is quite easy to see if you use the same argument, but substitute robbery for rape. Force is part of the legal definition of robbery as well (or it'd be theft) but no-one would suggest that it means all robbers are motivated by that.
That's why it's called reductio ad absurdum.

(1) Again, you're missing the point. Yes, I'm making the argument (as have many other posters) that rape involves force because that's a fact. I wasn't saying it, I said it. Where did I state "all rapists are motivated by force"? Your robbery example isn’t even relevant because I never said rapists are motivated by force. I said most rapists are driven by certain factors, ie., a need to dominate/control/humiliate/etc.*

Here's my direct quote (yet again):

Even if motivated by a sexual urge or a need to gratify oneself sexually, rape is still about force, because the person is forcing another person to do something against their will (without consent).

This is a fact. The crime of rape involves force (coercion), as per the legal definition.

(2) How does my follow-on statement not "logically follow the former"? Where did I state the legal definition of a crime and what motivates a criminal were one and the same? During an exchange with another poster (in follow-up), I stated a fact--rape involves force--followed by: sure, the perp might do it to get off and they might very well get off. It's still not consensual. Of course it's a "sexual act" (physically speaking). I'm speaking to what drives one to perform the act and that's a need to dominate, control, humiliate, overpower, etc. FORCE and the fact these individuals need fear/etc. in order to be sexually satisfied (but sexual gratification is secondary).

To simplify: Rape involves force and rapists are motivated by a number of factors, including domination, control, humiliation, power, etc. Again, this has been discussed and explained by experts (who can explain it far better than I can):



Source -- John Douglas:
*Rapists tend to fall into four basic categories, for example, the "power-reassurance rapist" (driven by feelings of inadequacy), the "exploitive" rapist (impulsive and overtly macho), the "anger" rapist (who uses sex to displace his rage) and, cruelest of all, the "sadistic" rapist, who "simply gets off on hurting people."

DeaK
11-18-2010, 05:27 AM
Very ordinary people have the whackiest fantasies (not that they live them out mind). For example, as I mentioned earlier, it is widely quoted that many women fantasise about enforced sex (note: apparently far fewer do when asked about rape, however, but don't ask me why!). I expect in their fanatasies they have distorted the truth so the so-called 'rapist' is more of an Adonis and an object of desire. Maybe it is a combination of wanting to feel desired and dominated, I don't know, but it is supposedly a common fantasy. Not that actual rape would be anything like that of course.

Everyone else seems to be staying a ten-foot pole's length away from this issue, but I'll bite. A little. Now, I don't mean that in a sexual way;) Not funny. Stop it. Sorry talking to myself.

I've been reading this thread because it is kind of interesting, and what keeps flashing in my head is: porn! No, not like that.

Most modern porn (that I've seen, and I haven't watched that much) is all about the men overpowering the women. Some people may argue about that, and I suspect it will be hard to prove either way, on a writing forum, but this is my perception.

So, when people watch porn and it turns them on, they start fantasizing about the same sorts of thing. Right? That, to me, would mean that men would desire to overpower women, and women would desire to be overpowered by men, if they watch a lot of porn.

A lot of people watch porn.

Anyway, I guess I'm saying that porn could be one reason for these types of fantasies on both sides of the fence.

Something else: it may have more to do with identity. Many women are, and feel oppressed in their daily lives. Sometimes the only way to deal with this (the only socially acceptable way) is to accept that this is their position in society. It becomes their identity. Then it doesn't seem so weird that they would fantasize about forced sex, does it? That is the only 'natural' way (according to their identity) that they can do anything.

I don't want to say IMO, because it's not really my opinion, more my speculation.

Rowan
11-18-2010, 05:39 AM
Something else: it may have more to do with identity. Many women are, and feel oppressed in their daily lives. Sometimes the only way to deal with this (the only socially acceptable way) is to accept that this is their position in society. It becomes their identity. Then it doesn't seem so weird that they would fantasize about forced sex, does it? That is the only 'natural' way (according to their identity) that they can do anything.

I don't want to say IMO, because it's not really my opinion, more my speculation.
Bolding is mine

The same could be said for many men as well. I don't really follow your logic, but I'm too tired to elaborate right now.

Wayne K
11-18-2010, 05:52 AM
Rapists aren't turned on by the sex: they're turned on by the violence. Rape is violence and sex is the weapon. It may be sexual in the mind of the rapist, but its not sex that a sexual sadist craves. That's why they graduate to murder in a lot of cases. Rape stops being enough.

If I beat someone with a bat, it doesn't make it a baseball game.

DeaK
11-18-2010, 05:53 AM
Bolding is mine

The same could be said for many men as well. I don't really follow your logic, but I'm too tired to elaborate right now.

I wrote that with the assumption that most people would agree we are not living in an equal world, vis--vis the sexes. We live in patriarchy, where it is built into the system that women are hierarchically below men.

Don't know if that is what you didn't follow. Please let me know, when you are not so tired.

DeaK
11-18-2010, 05:55 AM
Rapists aren't turned on by the sex: they're turned on by the violence. Rape is violence and sex is the weapon. It may be sexual in the mind of the rapist, but its not sex that a sexual sadist craves. That's why they graduate to murder in a lot of cases. Rape stops being enough.

If I beat someone with a bat, it doesn't make it a baseball game.

QFT right away:)

Tiger
11-18-2010, 06:06 AM
Rapists aren't turned on by the sex: they're turned on by the violence. Rape is violence and sex is the weapon. It may be sexual in the mind of the rapist, but its not sex that a sexual sadist craves. That's why they graduate to murder in a lot of cases. Rape stops being enough.

If I beat someone with a bat, it doesn't make it a baseball game.

I got into an argument--actually with a clinical psychologist--when we were discussing the movie "Pulp Fiction." It started when I commented that despite a ton of violence in the film there was no overt sex. I got a shocked look and was asked how I could say such a thing about a movie with a rape scene in it. Well, in the scene right before the rape, Ving Rhames was walking across a street. Bruce Willis saw him from inside his car, hit the accelerator and clobbered him... Was the definitive act driving the car, or the assault?

Rowan
11-18-2010, 02:49 PM
I wrote that with the assumption that most people would agree we are not living in an equal world, vis--vis the sexes. We live in patriarchy, where it is built into the system that women are hierarchically below men.

Don't know if that is what you didn't follow. Please let me know, when you are not so tired.

I don't entirely buy into the notion that many women fantastize about actual 'rape'/forced sex. I don't buy into the notion that more women than men feel oppressed, or how this would contribute to a forced sex/rape fantasy...it would seem more probable that one would fantasize about being dominant (getting back at the alleged "oppressors"), IMHO. Patriarchal society or not, only a handful of men are the "alpha dogs", and many men are dominated by women (along w/other men) for that matter.

So---from my perspective, your original statement could as easily be applied to men. I predict there are many men who feel equally oppressed at in the workplace and even at home, etc. :Shrug:

Perhaps we need to clarify what the poster meant by "rape fantasy", because if you're going to throw that around, it needs some serious clarification (as below):



In one study...women tend to fantasize about being forced or coerced into sex. However, these female fantasies in no way imply that the subject desires to be forced into sex in reality—the fantasies often contain romantic images where the woman imagines herself being seduced, and the male that she imagines is desirable. Most importantly, the woman remains in full control of her fantasy. The fantasies do not usually involve the woman getting hurt...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_fantasy

That's my 2-cents. ;)



Posted by Wayne K:
Rapists aren't turned on by the sex: they're turned on by the violence. Rape is violence and sex is the weapon. It may be sexual in the mind of the rapist, but its not sex that a sexual sadist craves. That's why they graduate to murder in a lot of cases. Rape stops being enough.

If I beat someone with a bat, it doesn't make it a baseball game.


QFT--this is (obviously) my opinion as well... :)

hammers
11-18-2010, 03:26 PM
I think it is definately about control and not sex, a few years back there was a case of a DJ who had women falling at his feet, yet he turned out to be a serial rapist.

Kenn
11-18-2010, 06:17 PM
Perhaps we need to clarify what the poster meant by "rape fantasy", because if you're going to throw that around, it needs some serious clarification...
If it is me to whom you are referring, then I wasn't defining 'rape fantasy'. The observation was based on several surveys in which women were asked whether they fantasised about rape or enforced sex. IIRC, over half said they fantasised about enforced sex and this compared to about a third for rape. The terms were not defined; therefore the definitions are subjective according to the respondees. I suspect the difference is largely due to the use of the word 'rape' more than anything else. According to your definitions, it sounds like both would be described as rape in your book anyway.

Of course they are fantasies where the fantasiser is in control and they have no desire to be actually raped. The issue is what causes these desires; not that they are dreams to be fulfilled.

Rowan
11-18-2010, 06:39 PM
If it is me to whom you are referring, then I wasn't defining 'rape fantasy'. The observation was based on several surveys in which women were asked whether they fantasised about rape or enforced sex. IIRC, over half said they fantasised about enforced sex and this compared to about a third for rape. The terms were not defined; therefore the definitions are subjective according to the respondees. I suspect the difference is largely due to the use of the word 'rape' more than anything else. According to your definitions, it sounds like both would be described as rape in your book anyway.

Of course they are fantasies where the fantasiser is in control and they have no desire to be actually raped. The issue is what causes these desires; not that they are dreams to be fulfilled.

Regardless of my personal 'definitions', the point I was making is that considering the sensitivity of the topic, qualifiers (ie., some sources) would've been helpful and a good idea. That's all. :Shrug:
[And yes, I know you mentioned the "Adonis" notion, etc.]

Kenn
11-18-2010, 06:58 PM
Regardless of my personal 'definitions', the point I was making is that considering the sensitivity of the topic, qualifiers (ie., some sources) would've been helpful and a good idea. That's all. :Shrug:
[And yes, I know you mentioned the "Adonis" notion, etc.]
All you needed to do was ask;)

I think this is where I got it from.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Women's+erotic+rape+fantasies%3A+an+evaluation+of+ theory+and+research-a0176374283

Happy reading!

DeaK
11-18-2010, 09:07 PM
Rowan, I agree that this is a sensitive subject. And I would much rather have discussed the issue of fantasy in another thread, but I am still new here, and so I follow the flow.


I don't entirely buy into the notion that many women fantastize about actual 'rape'/forced sex.

Agreed. I should have said that it would seem natural to me that 'some' women would fantasize about forced sex, rather than the sweeping 'they'. Also, good idea with the wiki definition. It was defined exactly as I assumed it would be defined.


I don't buy into the notion that more women than men feel oppressed, or how this would contribute to a forced sex/rape fantasy...it would seem more probable that one would fantasize about being dominant (getting back at the alleged "oppressors"), IMHO.

In my experience that is not how pathology of oppressed people works.


Patriarchal society or not, only a handful of men are the "alpha dogs", and many men are dominated by women (along w/other men) for that matter.
So---from my perspective, your original statement could as easily be applied to men. I predict there are many men who feel equally oppressed at in the workplace and even at home, etc. :Shrug:

I think there are many more women who are oppressed, than feel oppressed. I used feel only for the purposes of speculating about forced sex fantasies.
Anyway, it is my experience that if that is how you see the world, then anything I say is not going to convince you otherwise. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

backslashbaby
11-18-2010, 10:45 PM
Ah, I'll give you one girl's easy reasoning for a 'rape' fantasy. Me. The guy wants me very, very badly. Kind of a no-brainer kind of fantasy, imho ;)

And a far, far cry from real rape, obviously.

I don't generally have any kind of problem with submission in real life, btw ;) I think there's a word for that :D

Sarah Madara
11-18-2010, 11:20 PM
Ah, I'll give you one girl's easy reasoning for a 'rape' fantasy. Me. The guy wants me very, very badly. Kind of a no-brainer kind of fantasy, imho ;)

And a far, far cry from real rape, obviously.



I was just talking with my husband about this topic. If you accept the premise that rape is an act of violence and not an act of sex, I would say that in *most* women's rape fantasies, it's an act of sex and not an act of violence, and it is a far cry from real rape. Being overpowered might be a turn-on; broken bones or genital injuries, not so much for most women.

I'd disagree with the whole oppression thing. I think women are more likely to have submission fantasies as a counterbalance to the stress of too many responsibilities, always having to be on top of everything, feeling like they run the household by themselves, etc.

I would be interested to know if that sort of fantasy is as common in cultures where women really are treated as property, or in countries where rape is still routinely practiced as part of the spoils of war. Personally, I doubt it.

JMHO

Kenn
11-19-2010, 12:04 AM
I'd disagree with the whole oppression thing. I think women are more likely to have submission fantasies as a counterbalance to the stress of too many responsibilities, always having to be on top of everything, feeling like they run the household by themselves, etc...
Isn't that just another form of oppression though?

Rowan
11-19-2010, 02:13 AM
Rowan, I agree that this is a sensitive subject. And I would much rather have discussed the issue of fantasy in another thread, but I am still new here, and so I follow the flow.



Agreed. I should have said that it would seem natural to me that 'some' women would fantasize about forced sex, rather than the sweeping 'they'. Also, good idea with the wiki definition. It was defined exactly as I assumed it would be defined.



In my experience that is not how pathology of oppressed people works.



I think there are many more women who are oppressed, than feel oppressed. I used feel only for the purposes of speculating about forced sex fantasies.
Anyway, it is my experience that if that is how you see the world, then anything I say is not going to convince you otherwise. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Exactly. And just because I don't happen to see the world as you do--that doesn't make me wrong. :)

Sarah Madara
11-19-2010, 02:18 AM
Isn't that just another form of oppression though?

I suppose so. The previous post that mentioned oppression as a reason for rape fantasies sounded (to me) like a suggestion that some women may cope with status inequality by adopting a kind of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" attitude on a subconscious level. If that same argument held for this other brand of oppression, then you'd find women fantasizing about getting it on in their minivans while their lovers asked what was for dinner.

(Wow, if that were a turn-on, my sex life could be HOT.)

whimsical rabbit
11-19-2010, 02:25 AM
I was just talking with my husband about this topic. If you accept the premise that rape is an act of violence and not an act of sex, I would say that in *most* women's rape fantasies, it's an act of sex and not an act of violence, and it is a far cry from real rape. Being overpowered might be a turn-on; broken bones or genital injuries, not so much for most women.

Agreed.

The 'rape' fantasy is not an imaginary reconstruction of an actual rape with whatever this entails and results in (emotionally and physically) by any stretch of the imagination. It is a fantasy of domination and submission to somebody that most likely is either hot or at least worth fantasising about. The point of a fantasy is to turn you on, if it's a healthy one that is (don't ask me what's a 'healthy' fantasy. It's a huge topic and I think you probably know what I mean).





I'd disagree with the whole oppression thing. I think women are more likely to have submission fantasies as a counterbalance to the stress of too many responsibilities, always having to be on top of everything, feeling like they run the household by themselves, etc.

I don't agree with the oppression explanation either, even more so since we're talking about women in the western world. I understand that there's a lot of discrimination and male chauvinism going on, but I wouldn't think all (most?) western women feel 'oppressed' any more (although I admit I can't glimpse inside people's households and make confident assertions).

But I wouldn't attribute it to stress either.

I think it's probably the exact opposite of feeling oppressed actually. I'd bet that most women that fantasise about forced sex and submission are dynamic and decisive characters in their real-life, even a bit 'scary' to some men, and so the fantasies are about letting go, losing control for a second. I think people usually fantasise about what they desire but can't always have.




I would be interested to know if that sort of fantasy is as common in cultures where women really are treated as property, or in countries where rape is still routinely practiced as part of the spoils of war. Personally, I doubt it.


Me too. I can't think of any but one heart-aching fantasy, whoshoo: freedom.

DeaK
11-19-2010, 03:31 AM
This is an abstract from that article Kenn linked to earlier.


This article is the first systematic review of the research literature on women's rape fantasies.

Current research indicates that between 31% and 57% of women have fantasies in which they are forced into sex against their will, and for 9% to 17% of women these are a frequent or favorite fantasy experience.

Erotic rape fantasies are paradoxical: they do not appear to make sense. Why would a person have an erotic and pleasurable fantasy about an event that, in real life, would be abhorrent and traumatic? In this article, the major theories of women's rape fantasies are evaluated both rationally and empirically.

These theories explain rape fantasies in terms of masochism, sexual blame avoidance, openness to sexuality, sexual desirability, male rape culture, biological predisposition to surrender, sympathetic physiological activation, and adversary transformation.

This article evaluates theory and research, makes provisional judgments as to which theories appear to be most viable, and begins the task of theoretical integration to arrive at a more complete and internally consistent explanation for why many women engage in erotic rape fantasies.
Methodological critiques and programs for future research are presented throughout. It seems that the research will let us all be right, and then some;)

Apparently womens' rape fantasies run the whole gamut, from women fantasizing about being overpowered by an attractive, passionate man (erotic fantasies), to women fantasizing about being forced violently by a man they are not attracted to (aversive fantasies).

It seems that early researchers liked the idea that rape fantasies are wish fulfillment, but nowadays this theory is not so popular (gee, I wonder why:eek:). In total there are 8 theories about why women would have rape fantasies, but none of them are conclusive.

I found this part of the article to be the most interesting:


Biological theory sets the stage by identifying ritualistic (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ritualistic) displays of male dominance and female surrender as important parts of the courtship (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/courtship) ritual in many species. The display of male dominance may function as a way for females to assess genetic quality and the ability to protect.

Sympathetic activation provides the physiological basis for understanding how fantasies that generate feelings of fear and anger may enhance sexual arousal.

Adversary transformation suggests that in rape fantasies, the idea of rape, because of women's inherent fear of actual rape, functions as a powerful means for producing the danger and excitement that gives the fantasy sexual and emotional impact.

brainstorm77
11-20-2010, 05:10 PM
This has been one heck of a interesting thread. And while it's not story research for me, it got moved here from another section of AW, I think it shows how rape is looked at differently by many people.

Fulk
12-04-2010, 03:00 AM
If I beat someone with a bat, it doesn't make it a baseball game.

This line says it all. Well put.

To chime in, I don't believe rape is about sex either, and I think the research brought up here agrees. However, it does appear that rape is a statistically more frequent crime in sexually repressed countries. But I don't think this necessarily refutes rape as an act of violence rather than sexual desire--sexually repressive countries are exactly that, repressive. People will feel powerless and exert whatever dominance they have.

Xelebes
12-04-2010, 04:40 AM
The key to a rape fantasy is that the woman is A) attracted to the fellow and B) getting hurt in the right places. For example, in the fantasy or roleplay, certain rules might be to only hit the face or to only hit the arse and arms while insertion is to be ragged and torrential. The male participant, in a roleplay, would know beforehand the regions which are most arousing to his partner and apply most of the striking to these regions.

backslashbaby
12-04-2010, 04:58 AM
That is interesting.

Mine were probably because I date really, really nice guys. Like, polite, considerate guys (to their loved ones). There's a getting crazed and out of character aspect to it that's my thing. I like 'out of character' a lot as a theme in life, really, as long as it's a good thing. In a rape fantasy, it's what the girl wants, so it's by definition not like real-life rape, an obvious bad thing.

Orion11Bravo
12-13-2010, 07:19 PM
Rape may be about power, but I remember taking a Behavioral Psychology course and learning about another theory...

The evidence: most rapists know their victim, most rapists are "untouchables" (poor, ugly, socially awkward, etc), and most victims are left alive and relatively unscathed (please don't yell at me...I mean no permanent, physical injuries or death).

The hypothesis: rape is one method, albeit not the most effective, people use to procreate and pass on their genes, and is the method some will resort to when all other options dry up (see "untouchables").

I wish I could quote my text book, but that's long been traded for booze. The only other part of that chapter I remember were the other options to ensure your genes are passed on...have (consensual) sex with as many women as possible, with no intention of providing resources for the mothers or children (like little turtles on the beach...one of them has got to make it)...or have sex with one woman, and put all your resources into those few children, in hopes for quality over quantity.

According to this class, I remember, these are choices that we don't consciously make, but are rather ingrained into our DNA.

backslashbaby
12-14-2010, 01:00 AM
Rape may be about power, but I remember taking a Behavioral Psychology course and learning about another theory...

The evidence: most rapists know their victim, most rapists are &quot;untouchables&quot; (poor, ugly, socially awkward, etc), and most victims are left alive and relatively unscathed (please don't yell at me...I mean no permanent, physical injuries or death).

The hypothesis: rape is one method, albeit not the most effective, people use to procreate and pass on their genes, and is the method some will resort to when all other options dry up (see &quot;untouchables&quot;).

I wish I could quote my text book, but that's long been traded for booze. The only other part of that chapter I remember were the other options to ensure your genes are passed on...have (consensual) sex with as many women as possible, with no intention of providing resources for the mothers or children (like little turtles on the beach...one of them has got to make it)...or have sex with one woman, and put all your resources into those few children, in hopes for quality over quantity.

According to this class, I remember, these are choices that we don't consciously make, but are rather ingrained into our DNA.

The problem with that theory, imho, is that women would rape men, too, in significant numbers. We'd be trying to get pregnant any time we weren't already. If our choice of gene-bearer wouldn't have us, we'd see if we could make him by force. Sure, we're not as strong on average, but knives have been around a good many years! It may not be as successful as often because of the need for an erection, but you'd see it tried, wouldn't you?

Orion11Bravo
12-14-2010, 09:03 AM
The problem with that theory, imho, is that women would rape men, too, in significant numbers. We'd be trying to get pregnant any time we weren't already. If our choice of gene-bearer wouldn't have us, we'd see if we could make him by force. Sure, we're not as strong on average, but knives have been around a good many years! It may not be as successful as often because of the need for an erection, but you'd see it tried, wouldn't you?

Nope...and I just remembered, the title of the class was "Evolutionary Psychology", not "Behavioral Psychology"...I just remembered that because it all has to do with evolution, and that our hardwiring hasn't come anywhere near catching up to technology (even knives), modern cultural, and PC norms.

Here's the premise: the name of the game for males and females is to pass on your genetic material. Women need men for resources, and men need women for babies. Man tactics are detailed above. Women tactics are, generally, either mating with one man who will bring her lion carcasses, dental insurance, and the like in return for babies, or, women will "cuckle"(sp?), which is when they mate with the rock star/caveman-with-the-abs, but convince the ugly trust fund baby/head-berry-gatherer that he is the daddy.

Evolutionarily speaking, it doesn't make sense for women to rape because they require resources throughout pregnancy and beyond...men don't. Women can only make one baby a year and is sort of "stuck" with it...men can make many and are stuck with nothing. This is the theory behind why men rape and women, generally, don't. Again, just what I remember from class maybe ten years ago, I may have messed up something...

backslashbaby
12-14-2010, 09:44 AM
Nope...and I just remembered, the title of the class was "Evolutionary Psychology", not "Behavioral Psychology"...I just remembered that because it all has to do with evolution, and that our hardwiring hasn't come anywhere near catching up to technology (even knives), modern cultural, and PC norms.

Here's the premise: the name of the game for males and females is to pass on your genetic material. Women need men for resources, and men need women for babies. Man tactics are detailed above. Women tactics are, generally, either mating with one man who will bring her lion carcasses, dental insurance, and the like in return for babies, or, women will "cuckle"(sp?), which is when they mate with the rock star/caveman-with-the-abs, but convince the ugly trust fund baby/head-berry-gatherer that he is the daddy.

Evolutionarily speaking, it doesn't make sense for women to rape because they require resources throughout pregnancy and beyond...men don't. Women can only make one baby a year and is sort of "stuck" with it...men can make many and are stuck with nothing. This is the theory behind why men rape and women, generally, don't. Again, just what I remember from class maybe ten years ago, I may have messed up something...

Nah, it sounds right to me, and I studied it, too. I just hate that theory for all its holes. I'm a cat person, not a dog person ;) ;)

RJK
12-14-2010, 06:21 PM
The problem with that theory, imho, is that women would rape men, too, in significant numbers. We'd be trying to get pregnant any time we weren't already. If our choice of gene-bearer wouldn't have us, we'd see if we could make him by force. Sure, we're not as strong on average, but knives have been around a good many years! It may not be as successful as often because of the need for an erection, but you'd see it tried, wouldn't you?

Over the millenia primate babies have needed more and more care when they were born. The need to care for the babies was genetically bred into human females. The ones that cared for their children succeeded in carrying their genes through to the next generation. Therefore, monogamy became important to women. They needed to find a male partner who would remain with her to protect and to assure that her children were cared for.

Men on the other hand, have never had this burden. They have always been happy spreading their genes as far and to as many females as they could find.

Women may argue, but this system has worked for millions of years, and has produced a healthy, intelligent species.

Rape happens for many reasons, mostly because the men committing it are wired wrong, or have been indoctrinated into believing they are justified in committing such a wrongful act.

Lhun
12-14-2010, 07:58 PM
Not getting into the rape issue again, there's clearly too much emotional investment in this thread for me to further participate.

But regarding the sidetrack:

Women may argue, but this system has worked for millions of years, and has produced a healthy, intelligent species.The evo. psy. argument is that it is beneficial for women to mate with a partner for life, to have someone to provide resources and security to raise the children, but to not actually bear his children, but instead those of some other male, who instead of settling down spreads his genes as wide and far as possible with little regard for individual offspring. The reason is that bearing the child of someone who is very successful in spreading his genes raises the odds that the children will also be very successful in spreading their genes. (and that's what evolution is all about) The male that provides the environment for raising the children on the other hand is not important as gene donor. He is in it because he figures he has a better chance of preventing stray males impregnating his male than directly competing with them, and if successful he does get to raise offspring.

While one can see that this theory might be correct, the problem with evolutionary psychology is that it's mostly a bunch of just-so stories. No real way of testing them, those theories are just things that were thought up to post hoc explain observed behaviour. Which is not an acceptable way to arrive at a theory from a hard science point of view, and even for the soft sciences is still of questionable value.

Orion11Bravo
12-15-2010, 02:23 AM
While one can see that this theory might be correct, the problem with evolutionary psychology is that it's mostly a bunch of just-so stories. No real way of testing them, those theories are just things that were thought up to post hoc explain observed behaviour. Which is not an acceptable way to arrive at a theory from a hard science point of view, and even for the soft sciences is still of questionable value.

Agreed.

backslashbaby
12-15-2010, 02:37 AM
Thirded :)

And my dog/cat joke was because there are enough exceptions to the theory in mammal species alone to discount it if animal behavior were used as evidence. Primates, maybe. Dunno; do they all act the same way on that? Meh, you can see the obvious problems (imho) with some points in evolutionary psychology.

PinkAmy
12-15-2010, 02:56 PM
Note to Mods: I really didn't know where to put this, please move it if it should be elsewhere.

In another thread a member stated that rapist are often driven by their sexual urges/needs. Do you think rape is about sex?

I always understood that the act of rape was carried out with the need to control and humiliate the victim. And that sex was just a way to do it.

I decided to start a new thread to hear what others think on this topic. The other thread in question wasn't the place to do it.

I apologize if this has been answered. I didn't have the patience to read through all of the replies.

People have different biological predispositions. For instance, a pedophile is someone who is attracted to a certain type of child. Not all pedophiles are child molesters, but because they have the attraction, the clinical term is pedophile. Most child molesters are not pedophiles, meaning they aren't driven by the biological predisposition toward children. As you said, power and control are sometimes reasons, but you can't lump them all together.

With adult rape, the answer is just as complicated. Some rapists have anti-social personality disorder (once known as psychopath or sociopath) and see people as a means to an end. Some are narcissists and don't differentiate between their needs and the needs of others. Some project their extreme anger and hate sexually against unwilling victims. Motivations and psychopathologies for date rape are usually different from stranger rape.

Rape may be the act of intercourse, but I don't consider this sex (because it's RAPE). However, rapists most always think of their crimes as sex (doesn't make it so).

WalkingContradiction
01-25-2011, 02:12 AM
I read this thread the first time when it was only two pages long. Initially I wanted to answer it, saying 'of course rape is about sex', but then I read more than twenty replies in a row that seemed to suggest the opposite, so I figured 'oh wow, guess I was wrong then'.

Today, I read a passage on rape in Steven Pinker's book 'The Blank Slate'. It reminded me of this thread and got me thinking. Only because lots of people think something it doesn't have to be true. My initial reaction to this thread, which was confusion and disbelief, was most likely true.

Rape is a violent crime. And, it is about SEX.

Armed robbery is a violent crime, which is about greed&money. People say 'if rape is about sex, why not just pay a prostitute?' Well -- if armed robbery is about money, why not get a job?

Seriously, think about it:

Obvious fact: Men often want to have sex with women that won't let them have it. They try different strategies, seducing, sulking, deceiving, paying... Why on earth wouldn't they use violence to get to that goal too?

Yes, of course, fortunately there is empathy. Yet, another obvious fact: Some men use violence to get what they want and are indifferent to the suffering they cause. They might enjoy the suffering they cause too, as an extra, or they simply might not care. So why not use violence when it comes to sex they want? That would contradict just about everything we know about men.

Another fact to think about:
Chemical castration decreases recidivism rates, in one study byasmuchas a factor of fifteen! And there is no empirical evidence whatsoever from castrated rapists turning into torturers in some other way simply because they can't get their penises hard as 'weapons'.

And finally: There are sound evolutionary reasons for rape. That doesn't justify it morally of course, but it simply explains why it's rather unpleasantly common, especially in places where there isn't an effective police force (think of all the 'good, patriotic soldiers' that become rapists in war time). It makes no sense evolutionarily to rape for 'showing dominance'. Firstly because rape is regarded as a universally human taboo, there are laws against it, and if the rapist gets caught he gets killed by the parents, brothers, or spouse of the victim. So rape is undoubtedly a dangerous practice for the rapist and it certainly isn't 'mainstream repertoire', however, if the other ways don't work, evolution looks to it that men pass on their genes.

I wonder why the preposterous mantra 'rape has nothing to do with sex, it's about power' spread so easily and unchallengedly. It seems that it somehow makes people feel better. Maybe it's threatening to acknowledge that human nature is not all that nice and romantic as we might wish. Maybe it's more convenient to seek the wrongs in society. But all this doesn't solve the problem. In fact, it diverts from it and makes things worse. Pinker cites policies of rehab programs for rape offenders where they learn about feminist theory and get trained for 'dominance issues'. That stuff misses the point (and evidently the success statistics of such programs were awful).

Edit: And as others have mentioned in this thread, what about date-rape? Obviously about sex, right? So why make a difference simply when the means to get it are less crude and somewhat more 'thought out'?

Lhun
01-25-2011, 03:19 AM
I read this thread the first time when it was only two pages long. Initially I wanted to answer it, saying 'of course rape is about sex', but then I read more than twenty replies in a row that seemed to suggest the opposite, so I figured 'oh wow, guess I was wrong then'.

Today, I read a passage on rape in Steven Pinker's book 'The Blank Slate'. It reminded me of this thread and got me thinking. Only because lots of people think something it doesn't have to be true. My initial reaction to this thread, which was confusion and disbelief, was most likely true.Oh boy. Stirring the Hornet's nest much? As with any topic where people have a big emotional investment (as appears to be the case in this topic, maybe understandably so), discussions can easily turn ugly. Good luck with that.

Tiger
01-25-2011, 04:09 AM
Where ugly? Everybody's just gotten it wrong.

scarletpeaches
01-25-2011, 04:16 AM
Rape is a violent crime. And, it is about SEX.No, rape is a sexual crime. It is about violence.
Armed robbery is a violent crime, which is about greed&money. People say 'if rape is about sex, why not just pay a prostitute?' Well -- if armed robbery is about money, why not get a job?Um...because then you'd have to work for what you want instead of just taking it?
Seriously, think about it:

Obvious fact: Men often want to have sex with women that won't let them have it. They try different strategies, seducing, sulking, deceiving, paying... Why on earth wouldn't they use violence to get to that goal too?I presume because not all men are animals or rapists.
Chemical castration decreases recidivism rates, in one study byasmuchas a factor of fifteen! And there is no empirical evidence whatsoever from castrated rapists turning into torturers in some other way simply because they can't get their penises hard as 'weapons'.Riiiiight.

And finally: There are sound evolutionary reasons for rape. That doesn't justify it morally of course, but it simply explains why it's rather unpleasantly common, especially in places where there isn't an effective police force (think of all the 'good, patriotic soldiers' that become rapists in war time).Yeah.

Thing is? War time? It kinda makes your world a more violent place. It conditions you to think violence is okay.

If the soldiers just want sex rather than to oppress the people of the country they occupy, they'd just buttfuck each other.
It makes no sense evolutionarily to rape for 'showing dominance'.:Wha:
Firstly because rape is regarded as a universally human taboo, there are laws against it, and if the rapist gets caught he gets killed by the parents, brothers, or spouse of the victim.Excuse me? Your heteronormative misogyny is showing.
So rape is undoubtedly a dangerous practice for the rapist and it certainly isn't 'mainstream repertoire', however, if the other ways don't work, evolution looks to it that men pass on their genes.Explain why men get raped. Children. Post-menopausal women.

I wonder why the preposterous mantra 'rape has nothing to do with sex, it's about power' spread so easily and unchallengedly.Probably because it's not preposterous.
Pinker cites policies of rehab programs for rape offenders where they learn about feminist theory and get trained for 'dominance issues'. That stuff misses the point (and evidently the success statistics of such programs were awful).Well, if it's in a book it must be true; more so than anything appearing on the internet!
Edit: And as others have mentioned in this thread, what about date-rape? Obviously about sex, right?Is it?

Cyia
01-25-2011, 05:08 AM
Rape is a violent crime. And, it is about SEX.

According to one person's opinion which you happen to agree with. More often, rape is about power and making someone feel powerless. With serial rapists, it can be revenge, meant to allow the rapist to "regain" power taken by a woman in their life who fits a specific body type. It can be male on male - for power. It can be adult on child. Rape occurs for many reasons, most of them violent in origin, even if they're sexual in expression.




Obvious fact: Men often want to have sex with women that won't let them have it. They try different strategies, seducing, sulking, deceiving, paying... Why on earth wouldn't they use violence to get to that goal too?



Obvious fact: Most men aren't criminally inclined, nor do they enjoy the pain of others. Rape is painful.


So why not use violence when it comes to sex they want? That would contradict just about everything we know about men.

Who is this "we" of whom you speak, and what makes them think they "know" anything.



Another fact to think about:
Chemical castration decreases recidivism rates, in one study byasmuchas a factor of fifteen! And there is no empirical evidence whatsoever from castrated rapists turning into torturers in some other way simply because they can't get their penises hard as 'weapons'.

read a few interviews with rapists who have continued to abuse men and women after chemical castration. Rape doesn't require a human body for penetration, and in cases of extreme humiliation, doesn't. Objects can be used to rape, just like a man who is a violent rapist can escalate to stabbing people because he gets the same power rush.



Firstly because rape is regarded as a universally human taboo,

in some countries.


there are laws against it,

in some countries.



and if the rapist gets caught he gets killed by the parents, brothers, or spouse of the victim.

in some countries.


So rape is undoubtedly a dangerous practice for the rapist

in some countries.

You're dealing with things other than ethics, and you can't apply a broad legal brush to all cultures. "Rape" as defined by the US legal system isn't necessarily the same as defined by another country's.


I wonder why the preposterous mantra 'rape has nothing to do with sex, it's about power'

It's called research. It involves speaking to people who have committed the crimes and people who have had the crimes committed on them and extrapolating the data from their experiences.

Listen to survivors who have been raped to "teach a lesson" to someone else or in the name of "honor" or as spoils of war. The victim isn't even seen in a sexual way, nor are they seen in a way that includes procreation, they're a way to hurt a 3rd party. Violently and in the most humiliating way possible.



That stuff misses the point (and evidently the success statistics of such programs were awful).

Or maybe you did.



Edit: And as others have mentioned in this thread, what about date-rape? Obviously about sex, right?

No.

More often, it's about a guy who doesn't like hearing "no" and uses his size and weight to prove that "no" doesn't apply to him if he doesn't want it to. (the same can apply when a female is the aggressor, if she's stronger or can get the male into a submissive position)

There's a good bit of arrogance involved (you understand the concept of arrogance, right?) in that he's more important that his (or her) partner, male or female. The partner's needs mean nothing.

Females who commit sex-crimes (of which rape is one because it uses sex as the means to achieve its result) are generally more vicious than males. They have to strike harder to assert dominance.

latourdumoine
01-25-2011, 06:37 AM
Andrew Vacchs draws a lot on the theories around rape, pedophilia and abuse in general. Thought I'd bring that up here since he worked with child abuse cases and then later fictionalized them. Be warned though, a lot of it is pretty graphic.

WalkingContradiction
01-25-2011, 04:21 PM
First of all, this doesn't have to be about absolutes. I'm saying rape is almost always about sex, but that doesn't mean there aren't cases in which the rapist also intends to cause pain and revenge himself on the victim.

If it was only about violence, why don't violent people who were publically insulted by someone rape that person, even when it's another man or an unattractive woman? This happens way too rarely as to confirm the 'only power' hypothesis.


No, rape is a sexual crime. It is about violence.

Yeah so I've heard in this thread over and over again. But there were little arguments or stats in favor of this astonishing claim.



Um...because then you'd have to work for what you want instead of just taking it?

Um... Exactly!



I presume because not all men are animals or rapists.

Technically, all men are 'animals', but yeah definitely not all men are rapists. Not all men would pay for sex either. But some men prone to violence, prone to a lack of empathy, why wouldn't they use violence to get what they WANT?



Thing is? War time? It kinda makes your world a more violent place. It conditions you to think violence is okay.

If the soldiers just want sex rather than to oppress the people of the country they occupy, they'd just buttfuck each other..

I fully agree with war conditioning you to think violence is okay. Additionally, soldiers might feel like they don't have responsibility to anyone else because there's no police nearby.

"to oppress the people of the country they occupy"
Really? You think that's the motif of a soldier who sees a young attractive Vietnamese girl? Or even any female in general, for all he normally finds himself with are other soldiers and people trying to kill him. I'm not justifying anything, I'm just trying to understand the reasons behind it.



Excuse me? Your heteronormative misogyny is showing.?

I was just making a factual claim about what happened in most pre-modern societies. I was talking about evolution anyway (which you seem to shrug off with some weird smiley), and there's no moral justification in that. You can't get 'from is to ought'. I don't have any hidden agendas here, the violence thing just doesn't make any sense to me and I think this perception can actually do harm.



Explain why men get raped. Children. Post-menopausal women.Probably because it's not preposterous.Well, if it's in a book it must be true; more so than anything appearing on the internet!Is it?

People have sex with post-menopausal women too, or with men, or even with children for that matter. So you're saying sex isn't about sex now?

And anyways, these cases are NOT the norm. The average rape victims are females between 14 and 30. Now isn't that revealing?


According to one person's opinion which you happen to agree with. More often, rape is about power and making someone feel powerless. With serial rapists, it can be revenge, meant to allow the rapist to "regain" power taken by a woman in their life who fits a specific body type. It can be male on male - for power. It can be adult on child. Rape occurs for many reasons, most of them violent in origin, even if they're sexual in expression.

I agree with said opinion because of the arguments presented. And obviously I can think for myself just fine.

I grant you that in some cases, there are, next to the sex motif, other motifs of revenge / intended humiliation. But that's not the norm, especially if you count date-rape cases too.



Obvious fact: Most men aren't criminally inclined, nor do they enjoy the pain of others. Rape is painful.

I never disagreed with any of that. It is about the men who did rape someone.



Who is this "we" of whom you speak, and what makes them think they "know" anything.

Me, you (if you read my 'obvious facts'), scientists who study human behavior..



read a few interviews with rapists who have continued to abuse men and women after chemical castration. Rape doesn't require a human body for penetration, and in cases of extreme humiliation, doesn't. Objects can be used to rape, just like a man who is a violent rapist can escalate to stabbing people because he gets the same power rush.

Now this is interesting. Not the escalation into stabbing people, that doesn't negate a sexual motif (as well as a sexual disorder).

I mean the thing about chemically castrated rapists continuing to abuse women by i.e. penetrating them with objects. That would definitely be empirical evidence to falsify my claims. And in case of the actual rapist(s) you're talking about, I concede that it was not about sex. But is such a thing often? I'm inclined to doubt it. As I said, one reliable study stated that the recidivism rates for rapists went down by a factor of 15 after chemical castration. That's evidence in favor of my claim. I'll definitely look into the subject you mentioned, and if you have further sources at hand please post them.



in some countries.

You're dealing with things other than ethics, and you can't apply a broad legal brush to all cultures. "Rape" as defined by the US legal system isn't necessarily the same as defined by another country's.

I was talking about pre-modern times. So yeah, the term 'laws' was misleading, it could well be 'social conventions'. Also, in some cultures, especially foraging cultures, it is 'okay' to rape people from other tribes, so the laws only apply for the in-group (something very common in the evolution of morality).



It's called research. It involves speaking to people who have committed the crimes and people who have had the crimes committed on them and extrapolating the data from their experiences.

As far as I know, most rapists say it was about sex, and then the 'researchers' try to interpret other things into it. I think this has even been stated in this thread before.

Another thing that seems weird to me is you mentioning talking to the victims. OF COURSE from the side of the victim, rape is NOT about sex and ALL about violence -- even when the victim had rape fantasies before. But we're talking about the motifs of the rapists, not the feelings of the victim.



Listen to survivors who have been raped to "teach a lesson" to someone else or in the name of "honor" or as spoils of war. The victim isn't even seen in a sexual way, nor are they seen in a way that includes procreation, they're a way to hurt a 3rd party. Violently and in the most humiliating way possible.

As I said, it's not an 'all or nothing' situation. There are definitely some cases where humilation is the primary goal, and sex only an extra pleasure. However, if it were, as you say, ONLY about the power / violence / humiliation, then one would expect the victims to be boys as often as girls, old people as often as young, plain people as often as attractive ones.

A gang of guys driving by a street in some former Soviet republic state, seeing a lone woman and deciding to pull her into the car, drive somewhere and rape her (sadly this does happen not uncommonly), they certainly aren't thinking about revenge or honor! They might enjoy the power, but they also most definitely enjoy the 'sex'.



More often, it's about a guy who doesn't like hearing "no" and uses his size and weight to prove that "no" doesn't apply to him if he doesn't want it to. (the same can apply when a female is the aggressor, if she's stronger or can get the male into a submissive position)


So all the guy is doing is prove a point? Of course he doesn't like hearing 'no', and that's because he really wants to fuck the girl. If the same person in another instance has a mild craving for smoking but no cigaretts, and he sees another person pulling out one from a box, he might ask whether he can have one. When the person answers 'no, sorry it's the last one', will he really get over there and use violence to get the last cigarette simply because he can't take 'no' for an answer? In fact, he'd probably do it if the craving was strong, but if it's only a mild urge (to suppress boredom maybe) and he knows he'll be home in two minutes where he has lots of cigaretts anyway, then why bother?

WalkingContradiction
01-25-2011, 09:03 PM
There's a good bit of arrogance involved (you understand the concept of arrogance, right?)[...]

I'm not the one opting to personalize this, but if we have to, yeah, I think I understand it, thanks to scarletpeaches' post anyway.

scarletpeaches
01-25-2011, 09:10 PM
Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realise the little woman wasn't meant to disagree.

MurderOfCrows
01-25-2011, 09:17 PM
Another fact to think about:
Chemical castration decreases recidivism rates, in one study byasmuchas a factor of fifteen! And there is no empirical evidence whatsoever from castrated rapists turning into torturers in some other way simply because they can't get their penises hard as 'weapons'.


Chemical castration went out in the 80s for good reason -- it's easily circumventable. One trip to the Nut Doc "Hey man, I'm having these issues, I can't get it up!" One testosterone shot from an unknown doc later, and he's back in business with a functioning 'weapon'.

This is why it's never worked - not for pedophiles, not for rapists. I'd go dig through Vachss.com for the articles on it, but it's probably banned at work for sexual content. But I've NEVER seen anything quoting chemical castration as actually a functional punishment - which is why they don't do it anymore.

I'd be interested in seeing sources that claim otherwise, especially in that really outrageous reduced recidivism rate.

WalkingContradiction
01-25-2011, 09:21 PM
@scarletpeaches,
Actually up till now I didn't even know whether you're a man or a woman. Not that it matters concerning the arguments. I like your harsh humor on other topics from what I vaguely remember from your posts I've read. But obviously here our views differ greatly.

PinkAmy
01-25-2011, 09:22 PM
Rape isn't almost always about sex. Sometimes it is, but that's the exception, not the rule.
Rape isn't always violent, particularly date rape, where the boundaries are sometimes so blurred and if substances are involved. There are no absolutes with rape. It's not a cookie cutter crime.
Just because chemical castration sometimes decreases penile rape, doesn't mean that the crime is about sex or sexual arousal. Some people find violence sexually arousing--meaning they have a biological reaction to witnessing, perpetrating or experience violence. That doesn't mean violence is sexual. It's a chemical reaction. Lots of medications effect sexual arousal or desire.
I agree that "rape has nothing to do with sex" is a mantra that has been repeated for years. I think the phrase has been overdone, because it doesn't take into account all the variables between the victim and perpetrator. There are few absolutes and the perpetrator will usually have a very different understanding of the incident than the victim.
I've known and worked with a lot of rape survivors. I knew one woman who called herself a survivor of date, but never said no or fought back. She felt like she had to go through with the act. I don't think we can hold men more responsible for women or expect them to read minds. I'd be willing to bet that his view of the incident was one of mutual consent.
Most of the time, there is control, force, undue coercion etc. in stranger rape, even though a sexual act is committed. A sexual act, is different that my definition of sex.

MurderOfCrows
01-25-2011, 09:22 PM
Andrew Vacchs draws a lot on the theories around rape, pedophilia and abuse in general. Thought I'd bring that up here since he worked with child abuse cases and then later fictionalized them. Be warned though, a lot of it is pretty graphic.

Yeah. He's written extensively on the links between youth sex crime, power sex crime, and-- sex crime in general. (He's also a major influence on my writing and I've read a lot of his articles and nonfiction work on the subject).

And he'd be giving Walking Contradiction there the eye-patch glare if he were here, I'm pretty sure. Talk about somebody who is part of the problem. It's like watching the subject of a Vachss novel talk.

WalkingContradiction
01-25-2011, 09:23 PM
Chemical castration went out in the 80s for good reason -- it's easily circumventable. One trip to the Nut Doc "Hey man, I'm having these issues, I can't get it up!" One testosterone shot from an unknown doc later, and he's back in business with a functioning 'weapon'.

This is why it's never worked - not for pedophiles, not for rapists. I'd go dig through Vachss.com for the articles on it, but it's probably banned at work for sexual content. But I've NEVER seen anything quoting chemical castration as actually a functional punishment - which is why they don't do it anymore.

I'd be interested in seeing sources that claim otherwise, especially in that really outrageous reduced recidivism rate.

Interesting, I thought the reasons against it were mainly ethical. I'll dig up the source...

WalkingContradiction
01-25-2011, 09:38 PM
And he'd be giving Walking Contradiction there the eye-patch glare if he were here, I'm pretty sure. Talk about somebody who is part of the problem. It's like watching the subject of a Vachss novel talk.

What is that supposed to mean?? All I'm doing is making the case for what I think is a denied reason why most rapists rape. How is that being part of the problem? If anything, wrong beliefs about it increase the problem because they miss the point when it comes to prevention, or therapy for the rapists.

Anyway, I couldn't find the study because the reference was based on other sources, which are
1999, Jones, O. Sex, culture, and the biology of rape: Toward explanation and prevention. California Law Review, 75, 1117-1242.
2000, Jones, O. Reconsidering rape. National Law Journal, February 21, A21.

PinkAmy
01-25-2011, 09:48 PM
Walking contradiction- I think you'll find vastly different opinions researching rape through a sociological context vs. a legal one.

We have to be really careful not to vilify people who's opinions differ. That's a sure fire way to turn an intellectual debate into a witch hunt.

WalkingContradiction
01-25-2011, 09:56 PM
Walking contradiction- I think you'll find vastly different opinions researching rape through a sociological context vs. a legal one.

We have to be really careful not to vilify people who's opinions differ. That's a sure fire way to turn an intellectual debate into a witch hunt.

You're right of course, though in theory, the facts shouldn't differ simply because they're analyzed from different perspectives. And to me it seems it already is a witch hunt, with scientists being the target of some weird ideology that assumes that if rape is about sex, it's 'more acceptable' or even 'justified'. No one ever made such a claim! There's no reason to get emotional about it, apart from the emotions that naturally come when one thinks one's right and the other person seems to miss the point.

PinkAmy
01-25-2011, 11:28 PM
But research isn't absolute. Ideally it's supposed to be, but any researcher or theorist can legitimately put their own spin on numbers or ideas. We live in a world of shades of gray, not blacks and whites.

Rape is an emotional topic for a lot of people. One in four women have been sexually abused or raped and the number for men isn't far behind. For years rape victims were treated like criminals in the courts and in public opinion. Women had to hide what happened to them for fear of being shunned by their families and by society. It's only natural for the pendulum to swing a little too far in the other direction before finding a happy medium. There was a time when rape victims were thought to always tell the truth about what happened, until a small percentage of people falsified crimes. In efforts to validate victims experiences, some have gone to the extreme (like the woman I talked about) by claiming regretting not objecting to sex was date rape.

It's easier to talk about rape from an academic perspective when you haven't been personally involved. I have. Thirty years ago I would have thought you were saying I asked for it. Twenty years ago I would have wanted your head on a platter. Ten years ago I would have thought you just don't get it. Today I think you could have a more in depth perspective if you looked at the facts from different perspectives.

MurderOfCrows
01-25-2011, 11:31 PM
What is that supposed to mean?? All I'm doing is making the case for what I think is a denied reason why most rapists rape. How is that being part of the problem? If anything, wrong beliefs about it increase the problem because they miss the point when it comes to prevention, or therapy for the rapists.

Anyway, I couldn't find the study because the reference was based on other sources, which are
1999, Jones, O. Sex, culture, and the biology of rape: Toward explanation and prevention. California Law Review, 75, 1117-1242.
2000, Jones, O. Reconsidering rape. National Law Journal, February 21, A21.

You are attempting to say that rape is an evolutionary imperative -- that men simply have urges to follow a biological imperative and that the constructs of (at least in Western culture) exist to keep them from following these natural urges, and this is an acceptable explantion for rape.

It's not, it will never be, and this level of Rape Apology has no place in civlizied culture. We are are animals, yes. We can be base, yes. Carnal, certainly. Predatory? Oh, definitely. But these are deviancies. These are not human -- or often, societal -- norms, and as humans, we should not and usually do not tolerate them.

You are telling us, at it's core, it's 'just natural' for a man to rape, even when he has willing sexual partners available. That's a terrible excuse for why men rape, and not at all accurate. Your bad science is unsupported, and in fact flies in the face of most accepted study of rapists, rape culture, and sexual abuse culture. The reason it's being denied is because studies have shown it is simply not true. You claiming otherwise will will never make it true.

dpaterso
01-26-2011, 12:28 AM
The OP does ask for opinions on this button-pushing topic. Not everyone has to (or will) agree with everyone else's opinions -- it's up to the OP sort through what's been offered and come to whatever conclusion seems best for the story.

That said, maybe enough opinions have been offered, maybe it's time the thread took a rest and got its breath back before horns are locked.

-Derek