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Rowan
11-06-2010, 04:51 AM
There seems to be a lot of questions and interest related to firearms, so I thought we should start a thread. It can serve as a jumping off point for questions but also for firearms enthusiasts to "talk guns". :)

I'm a Sig (Sauer) girl myself but own a few other handguns, including a Taurus .38, a Heckler & Koch (H&K) P-30 9mm, and a Walther PPK (.380).

I've shot a lot of Colts and Kimbers (full size and concealed carry models), and have experience with Glocks (which I personally don't like). Was issued a Glock model 22 (.40 cal) and got rid of it ASAP--had to complete a Sig transition course. Some people love Glocks; I'm not one of them. ;)

For me, the Sig just feels right--every time I pick one up. In the end, I think it all comes down to what works for you personally, whether it's a revolver or a 1911, etc.

My first Sig was the P-220 (.45 cal), which I carried and love. It's my go-to weapon. I later acquired the P-220 carry (.45. cal) and the P-229 (.40 cal).

The H&K P-30 is nice because it comes with interchangeable grips and also has ambidextrous (dual) slide and magazine release levers. I prefer the Sig P-228 for a 9mm but the H&K is growing on me.

But for me the ultimate will always be the Sig Sauer P-220 full size .45.

Let the questions /answers and gun talk ensue! :D

Noah Body
11-06-2010, 05:09 AM
Sig P220 is my hand gun of choice as well, ever since 1989. :D

Rowan
11-06-2010, 05:13 AM
Sig P220 is my hand gun of choice as well, ever since 1989. :D

A man with excellent taste. :)

Think I bought my first one in 1997... love at first sight.

Cella
11-06-2010, 05:24 AM
*subscribes to thread*

Tiger
11-06-2010, 05:25 AM
I've shot H&K USP tactical (not much tactical about it), Sig P226 (.40, 9mm & 357 Sig), H&K P7 M13, P7 M10. P7s are nice once you get used to them. but my favorites were the P226s. I like 1911s too.

Rowan
11-06-2010, 05:29 AM
I've shot H&K USP tactical (not much tactical about it), Sig P226 (.40, 9mm & 357 Sig), H&K P7 M13, P7 M10. P7s are nice once you get used to them. but my favorites were the P226s. I like 1911s too.

A Colt 1911 was the first gun I ever fired. I like 1911s too, but I have a hard time with the grip safety--feels awkward to me for some reason. Kimber makes some really nice ones but I've got my eye on the Sig 1911. :D
http://www.sigsauer.com/products/ShowCatalogProduct.aspx?categoryid=25

Noah Body
11-06-2010, 05:34 AM
Hmm, nice looking weapon, especially the rail... if it has the same SIG workmanship I'm used to, I'd sign up for one of those. I own a P226 as well, and it's the only 9mm I've ever bought and kept. Very easy weapon to get used to.

Tiger
11-06-2010, 05:51 AM
Anybody have a favorite round? I like .45.

Rowan
11-06-2010, 05:52 AM
.45 here too......

On another note: What are the most common gun-related mistakes you see in movies or read in books?

ETA: **Will keep a list here and edit as needed:

From Tiger:
1. Thumbing down a hammer instead of using the weapons decocker

2. A "police officer, g-man, special agent, etc." letting his partner walk in front of his weapon's business end when covering someone

3. People being knocked off their feet by a round hitting them

4. Shooting a smiley face onto a silouette target with seven rounds fired in rapid succession at 25 yards with a Beretta

5. Several hundred rounds flying out of a weapon sporting a 30 round magazine

6. Running gun battles down city streets involving LEOs who don't seem to care what's behind or around the guy their shooting at

7. Bashing someone in head with Glock (polymer)

8. Movie: heroine taking left-handed aim at a guy with an Aug--with the ejection port pressed against her face.

From Rugrat:
1. In books, a silencer on a revolver, although that's less common now that the internet is available.

2. In film, a silencer that is so effective that the sound is a "phht," quieter than a whisper.

3. In both, cops who cock the hammer back in stress situations, like while searching a building.

From Summonere:
1. Glocks going click-click-click when the bad guy, supposedly out of ammo (slide in battery, no less), keeps pulling the trigger.

2. Semi-autos supposedly out of ammo, but the slide is clearly in battery.

3. Safeties engaged on pistols used to threaten others. (This seems most commonly observed among 1911 prop guns, in which the safety is not merely engaged, but the hammer isn't cocked, either.)

4. Semi-auto gunfire, no ejected brass.

5. Guy runs out of ammo and throws gun at opponent. (If I run out of ammo, I'm keeping my gun so I can bludgeon my opponent with it, or, in the event of finding more ammo, reload.)

6. Armed person (often LE) corners improperly, gets surprised by bad guy at close quarters, ends up wrestling with him instead of shooting him.

7. The private armed citizen is a fool, and an incompetent one, at that (especially if female; if male, he's usually a hothead, a redneck, or a bumbling nerd).

From RedWritingHood:
1. You've got replica written on the side of your gun.

From Drachen Jager:
1. Riding the action! Nearly every TV show and movie you see the actors ride the action of an automatic forward. You are supposed to pull the action back and then let go the spring pulls it forward. 99% of the time in film the actor holds the cocking lever/slide all the way forwards and back.

2. Quick deaths. It's extremely rare that someone dies within seconds after being shot only a couple of times.

From Rowan:
1. Characters discussing firearms like they're reading from a manual.

From KQ800:
1. Writers perpetuating gun myths when they should have researched better. Jack Reacher getting shot in the chest with a .38 special, but stopping the bullet with his pectoral muscle "since the .38 special has low penetration"

2. Hero getting shot in the shoulder but aside from an occasional grunt no diminished capacity or shock is induced.

3. As a follow up, after getting shot at close range with a large caliber handgun the hero is present a couple of days later with only a small sling indicating the wound.

4. Absence of sound. The heroine without hearing protection quick fires an entire 15-round magazine of 9mm through elevator doors while standing inside the elevator with her 16 year-old son and none of them get hearing damage. Or an untrained hero wrestles with the bad guy and the gun goes off next to their heads but none of them even flinches. That bang really hurts!

Note: In Black hawk down they got this right, with Twombley, a machine gunner screaming at his buddy to stop firing so close to his head. and just then a Somali gunman appears and the buddy has no choice but to slew his gun and fire right in front of Twombleys face. Every time they give him orders for the rest of the movie he shouts -"What?".

5. Racking the slide of a pump action shotgun over and over in every scene.

6. And, technically not a firearm but a main pet peeve of mine, when they use the AT4 antitank rifle and show a rocket flying out of it. Also, firing the weapon backwards with the rocket coming out of the nozzle. Gah!

From Ray H:
1. I hate when a suspect in a movie is threatening a person with a semi-auto, then racks the slide to show he is serious. Then one of two things happens, a round pops out and he wastes what could be the round that saves his life, or nothing comes out meaning that the chamber was empty in the first place.

2. Also, I hate when the shooters in movies (cops and suspects) "throw" the bullets out of their guns by repeatedly pushing their arms forwards as they squeeze the trigger.

Ol' Fashioned Girl
11-06-2010, 05:56 AM
Good thread, Rowan. I've been kicking around starting one myself and never got around to it.

Glock was my first... but I didn't really like it much. It was too big for me at the time and I wasn't serious about learning to shoot. For CC, I have a Bersa .380. Love it. Good size and weight for carrying. I've got a full-size Bersa .380, too - not a whole lot of difference in the two; the CC model is just smoother and a tad smaller without hooky stuff to catch on the inside of pockets and linings.

We have some others, too, but they're Ol' Boy's and I don't shoot them much. I have a .22 I use for plinking - those .380 rounds were hard to come by for awhile and they're too expensive to throw willynilly downrange.

Tiger
11-06-2010, 06:02 AM
1. Thumbing down a hammer instead of using the weapons decocker

2. A "police officer, g-man, special agent, etc." letting his partner walk in front of his weapon's business end when covering someone

3. People being knocked off their feet by a round hitting them

4. Shooting a smiley face onto a silouette target with seven rounds fired in rapid succession at 25 yards with a Beretta

5. Several hundred rounds flying out of a weapon sporting a 30 round magazine

6. Running gun battles down city streets involving LEOs who don't seem to care what's behind or around the guy their shooting at

Rowan
11-06-2010, 06:04 AM
Oh yeah, #2 is a pet peeve...

Tiger
11-06-2010, 06:09 AM
Not sure this one fits, but how about someone getting knocked out by someone hitting him over the head with a Glock? Sure, the slide's metal, but I think it'd not be that different from getting clocked with a TV remote.

LBlankenship
11-06-2010, 06:17 AM
Question: how quickly does the brass cool down after firing? Can you really get a burn if you get hit by a case flying out of an automatic? What if it was, say, a bolt action rifle?

Tiger
11-06-2010, 06:21 AM
Not quickly enough. It can be hard to keep your cool when one of the little beggers plunks down through the neck of your shirt...

WriteKnight
11-06-2010, 07:04 AM
I've got to fire a Glock on a range on two separate occasions. Both times, they jammed on me. Both times, the owners 'swore' that NEVER happened before.

Don't care much for them.

I have a good selection of 'period' firearms, including matchlock muskets, cap and ball and flintlocks - use them a lot in my work. Yeah, they are all 'real' in the sense that I COULD load a ball in them, and rob a bank with them.

Keep the old S&W .357 'combat master' on hand for other purposes.

Ol' Fashioned Girl
11-06-2010, 04:17 PM
Question: how quickly does the brass cool down after firing? Can you really get a burn if you get hit by a case flying out of an automatic? What if it was, say, a bolt action rifle?

I have a lovely scar just below that little 'V' shape at the base of my throat where a .22 shell from the guy firing next to me hit me and STUCK while I was qualifying for my CC license. Yeah, they burn. Don't know about the rifle, though. Ol' Boy says they'll fling out and hit someone standing next to you, but the weight might keep it from sticking like the .22 casing did.


I've got to fire a Glock on a range on two separate occasions. Both times, they jammed on me. Both times, the owners 'swore' that NEVER happened before.

The only time Ol' Boy's Glock has ever jammed was 1) steel-cased ammo and 2) when I fired it. I blame the ammo and myself.


I have a good selection of 'period' firearms, including matchlock muskets, cap and ball and flintlocks - use them a lot in my work. Yeah, they are all 'real' in the sense that I COULD load a ball in them, and rob a bank with them.

We've got some great black-powder guns and I loved taking those out to shoot, even with the smell. Everything from a lady's or gentleman's vest-pocket derringer to a Colt Dragoon and a .50 Hawken.

That said, I don't see how we 'won the West' having to load and shoot... I can see how the development of the cartridge was a huge benefit.

Rowan
11-06-2010, 04:46 PM
Question: how quickly does the brass cool down after firing? Can you really get a burn if you get hit by a case flying out of an automatic? What if it was, say, a bolt action rifle?

M16 brass burns and always--always--finds a way down the back of your shirt, etc. :) Not sure how long it takes before it cools off (enough to touch) but I'd guess maybe a minute or two? Anyone tested this theory?

What makes me laugh are the people who show up at the range wearing Daisy Duke shorts (or shorts for men), tank tops and low cut shirts. And we can't forget the high heels. You can slip on brass while wearing range boots so WTF with the heels?!

ETA: I know we've got some rifle guys here (Summonere, etc.). I'm sure they'll be in at some point and can answer the rifle questions. I'm only familiar with the M16 :)


Posted by WriteKnight:
I've got to fire a Glock on a range on two separate occasions. Both times, they jammed on me. Both times, the owners 'swore' that NEVER happened before.

Don't care much for them.


My Glock jammed constantly. And I was using LE grade (expensive/carry) ammo. I'll never be a fan but I'll try and not be overly derogatory for those who do like Glocks... ;)

OneWriter
11-06-2010, 05:41 PM
My MC carries a Glock 17. I'm told it's very popular among cops and relatively cheap, so (I'm told, but I'm open to different opinions) it fits the picture. His back up is a Colt .357 Magnum. Any interesting story about this particular weapon?
Also, I'm curious: what bullets do you guys use? Different ones for different uses? When would you use a hollow point?
Thanks!! This thread was very much needed, Rowan. Thumbs up! :)

Rowan
11-06-2010, 05:47 PM
My MC carries a Glock 17. I'm told it's very popular among cops and relatively cheap, so (I'm told, but I'm open to different opinions) it fits the picture. His back up is a Colt .357 Magnum. Any interesting story about this particular weapon?
Also, I'm curious: what bullets do you guys use? Different ones for different uses? When would you use a hollow point?
Thanks!! This thread was very much needed, Rowan. Thumbs up! :)

Quit reminding me of that fact! :D

For "carry" ammo, I use Remington Golden Saber "High Performance Jacket" (HPJ), Hydra-shok, and sometimes Federal. Remingonton/Hyda-Shok: This is what my bedside guns are loaded with. ;) The federal LE agencies (at least mine) generally carry the Remingon HPJ.

For the range, I go with Federal usually, but then I only go once a month (if not twice) for about an hour or so. It can get EXPENSIVE!

OneWriter
11-06-2010, 07:03 PM
Sorry I reminded you my dick is a Glock guy... ;)
But it is common among cops, or did I get that wrong?

Rowan
11-06-2010, 07:43 PM
Sorry I reminded you my dick is a Glock guy... ;)
But it is common among cops, or did I get that wrong?

I'll let it go this time (J/K). :D

It depends--the feds go by bids. The classes prior to mine were issued Sigs and then I show up and they hand me a Glock. :rant:

I think most local/state are the same. Glocks are a lot less expensive than say Sig Sauer, H&K, Kimber, etc. I'd rather pay the extra $$$ for a Sig myself. "To hell and back reliability"

I'd love to get your thoughts after you've fired both. Ask that local source of yours to take you to the range! :)


NOAH BODY:

Check this out!! http://www.sigsauer.com/upFiles/proshop/product/2detail-got-sig-t.jpg
(even a pink one for the ladies although I prefer black): http://www.sigsauer.com/upFiles/proshop/product/detail-W-Got-SIG.jpg

and this: http://images1.cpcache.com/product/441380521v1_480x480_Front.jpg

Noah Body
11-06-2010, 09:14 PM
Heh!

Ol' Fashioned Girl
11-06-2010, 09:27 PM
A hollow point is for when you absolutely, positively want to drop the guy/gal in his tracks and not go all the way through the corpse and into an innocent on the other side - even if there's a wall between you, a high caliber bullet will go through the target and then through the wall and hit the sleeping kid on the other side.

The hollow point will 'star' out or bloom like a flower on impact with soft tissue and take a turn - or two - at the first opportunity, making hash out of the target's insides. A full-metal jacket bullet will more likely make both entrance and exit wounds, leaving the target too much time to get to me before he falls down. I want the bullet(s) to kill someone who's trying to hurt me or Ol' Boy, without endangering anyone else. I do not intend for him/her/them to be able to keep coming at us.

OneWriter
11-06-2010, 09:48 PM
Can somebody fire a full-metal jacket with a revolver?
Oh, and is it true that revolvers don't leave cases?

What I'm getting at is the following: suppose your victim has an exit wound--would you immediately think "full-metal jacket bullet"? And suppose there are no case on the ground and you know your killer left in a hurry. Could you infer the gun was a revolver?


Ask that local source of yours to take you to the range! :)

Unfortunately my "local" source is not local, but I might see him next summer.
And yes, he said the same thing. (About going to the range. He didn't mind the Glock, though he used to have a S&W while on duty).

PS: Forgive my naivete, I'm here to learn. :D

Rowan
11-06-2010, 10:47 PM
Can somebody fire a full-metal jacket with a revolver?
Oh, and is it true that revolvers don't leave cases?

What I'm getting at is the following: suppose your victim has an exit wound--would you immediately think "full-metal jacket bullet"? And suppose there are no case on the ground and you know your killer left in a hurry. Could you infer the gun was a revolver?



Unfortunately my "local" source is not local, but I might see him next summer.
And yes, he said the same thing. (About going to the range. He didn't mind the Glock, though he used to have a S&W while on duty).

PS: Forgive my naivete, I'm here to learn. :D
You're not being naive...that's what the thread is for--to learn! :)

You're correct, a revolver doesn't eject the spent shells (you have to manually empty it). If firing a semiauto, you could police your own brass but that would mean remembering how many shots you fired and taking the time to pick them up, obviously. ;) I'm no ammo expert so I'll leave the details to someone else. I just know what I like and the basics, which isn't much.

Check out this site for more info on the ammo question:
http://world.guns.ru/ammo/am_revolver-e.htm

There are also Glaser Safety rounds (to go along with what Ol Fashioned Girl said): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaser_Safety_Slug


The bullet design can produce large shallow wounds in flesh while failing to pass through structural barriers thicker than drywall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drywall) or sheet metal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheet_metal).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaser_Safety_Slug#cite_note-3) The rapid energy dump creates high stopping power and the wide wound cavity destroys a large amount of tissue, making the Glaser a deadly round when it strikes a target's torso. At the same time, the fact that it only penetrates at most a few inches, means it will not pass through the target when hit center-mass, nor will it pass through a standard wall. These qualities make it less likely to strike unintended targets, such as people in another room during an indoor shooting. Also, when it strikes a hard surface from which a solid bullet would glance off, it fragments into tiny, light pieces and creates much less ricochet danger.

Ol' Fashioned Girl
11-06-2010, 11:00 PM
Yes, absolutely. And the cases stay in the cylinder until you dump 'em out and reload.

As for the exit wound, it would be verrrrry nasty if it were caused by a hollow point, because of the condition of the bullet I described above. BUT, if it were a full-metal jacket, it could be messy as well. Depends upon the caliber of the bullet and the powder load as well as the proximity to the gun when it's fired. A .22 caliber might not have enough butt to go all the way through a body - depends on the size of the body. A .45 caliber full metal jacket (aka: FMJ) will make a mess of anyone.

BRDurkin
11-06-2010, 11:02 PM
Awesome, 'bout time a thread like this got started, haha.

I have a variety of firearms myself. They are mostly utilitarian and nothing fancy. Aside from my Ruger .22 LR (for the ground squirrels), I have a Springfield XD-M .40 caliber pistol, a Glock 27 .40 caliber compact pistol, a Mossberg 590A1 12-gauge tactical shotgun, and a DPMS AP-4 7.62x51 rifle.

The Springfield is excellently crafted, but it can be somewhat difficult to handle for just casual use. I like it because of its rugged construction and its high capacity (16+1). That's a lot for .40 S&W!

The Glock 27 is my newest gun, and I've only fire it a few times. Felt recoil is a lot less than the Springfield, and it shoots very accurately. I got it because it's a compact, and it's great for concealed carry. I've made a few minor modifications to it to increase ease of use.

I got the Mossberg 590A1 because it seems to be the closest thing on the market today to the Mossberg 500, which I used while in the Navy. It's a very well-made gun, and can use 2 3/4" or 3" shot shells. Capacity of 5+1. Recoil is always rough with a 12-gauge of course, but the 590A1 has good padding on the stock and is easy to shoot. I was particularly delighted to discover the 1-oz. copper-plated sabot slugs they make for the 12-gauge.

As for my DPMS AP-4, it's basically the same thing as an AR-10. Built like an AR-15, but for 7.62x51 (.308) as opposed to 5.56 (.223). Collapsible stock, 16" barrel. I put a foregrip, EOTech reflex sight, and flashlight on it. Great for medium sniper or CQB.

In the Navy, I used the Colt M-16A3, Beretta M9, Mossberg 500, the M-4 and Mk18 variant, and various machine guns.

That's my experience in firearms. Always eager to learn/experience more, though. ;)

rugcat
11-06-2010, 11:05 PM
On another note: what are the most common gun-related mistakes you see in movies or read in books?In books, a silencer on a revolver, although that's less common now that the internet is available.

In film, a silencer that is so effective that the sound is a "phht," quieter than a whisper.

In both, cops who cock the hammer back in stress situations, like while searching a building.

Ol' Fashioned Girl
11-06-2010, 11:08 PM
Here's a quickie film (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaXcXVvRuJ8&feature=related)showing the difference between the FMJ and the hollow point.

Rowan
11-06-2010, 11:12 PM
In books, a silencer on a revolver, although that's less common now that the internet is available.

In film, a silencer that is so effective that the sound is a "phht," quieter than a whisper.

In both, cops who cock the hammer back in stress situations, like while searching a building.

Oh yeah---this one takes the cake!!!! :D

Cath
11-07-2010, 12:40 AM
Hi folks. I've been asked to sticky this thread, and I'm not going to partly because it's still young and I don't know what use it will be in the longer term, and for other reasons.

However, if you're interested in keeping this thread bookmarked for future reference, I urge you to subscribe using the 'Thread Tools' option at the top right there so you can keep this on your rader.

Summonere
11-07-2010, 01:51 AM
carlavii
Question: how quickly does the brass cool down after firing?


That depends, but here's the short answer based upon personal experience: fairly quickly. To elaborate: In warm, dry, weather, most cases chucked out of a semi-auto pistol are fine for picking up mere seconds after they've hit the ground. They'll be warm, but not burny. In fact, I've caught and juggled a few till they were cool enough to not be bothersome (not much time involved at all, and the aluminum cases seem to retain less heat than the brass ones).

Also consider this: I've had hot brass stick behind my ears, glasses, go down my collar, and stick between my toes. It's uncomfortable in a tiny way, but can be ignored. Others don't think so. In Internet parlance, YMMV. (Next time I'm at the range, I'll bring a stopwatch and take notes.)

An empty case chucked from a semi-auto or full-auto rifle (firing rifle rounds, not pistol, as I have no experience with the latter except in .22LR) is simply too hot to catch unless you really want to get burned. After it sits on the ground for a few seconds, though, you can pick one up and it'll usually still be very warm, but not burny.



Can you really get a burn if you get hit by a case flying out of an automatic?


Yes. More from a rifle than a pistol. Those former cases contain more powder, so they get hotter once the "fire" part of "firearm" is applied.



What if it was, say, a bolt action rifle?


Not real sure. Been too long since I've played with the bolt-actions. Here's what I remember, though: that depends. If the empty case isn't immediately ejected, it has time to cool. Even if it is immediately ejected, the process is slower than with a semi- or full-auto, so the case will be slightly cooler form a bolt-action rifle. Assuming an immediate ejection, though, it still may not be cool enough to pick up for a few seconds. At my leisurely target-shooting pace, however, that was rarely, if ever the case.

Summonere
11-07-2010, 02:02 AM
On another note: what are the most common gun-related mistakes you see in movies or read in books?

Glocks going click-click-click when the bad guy, supposedly out of ammo (slide in battery, no less), keeps pulling the trigger.

Semi-autos supposedly out of ammo, but the slide is clearly in battery.

Safeties engaged on pistols used to threaten others. (This seems most commonly observed among 1911 prop guns, in which the safety is not merely engaged, but the hammer isn't cocked, either.)

Semi-auto gunfire, no ejected brass.

Guy runs out of ammo and throws gun at opponent. (If I run out of ammo, I'm keeping my gun so I can bludgeon my opponent with it, or, in the event of finding more ammo, reload.)

Armed person (often LE) corners improperly, gets surprised by bad guy at close quarters, ends up wrestling with him instead of shooting him.

The private armed citizen is a fool, and an incompetent one, at that (especially if female; if male, he's usually a hothead, a redneck, or a bumbling nerd).

OneWriter
11-07-2010, 02:06 AM
Here's a quickie film (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaXcXVvRuJ8&feature=related)showing the difference between the FMJ and the hollow point.

Thanks, that was impressive.

Which prompted another question: does a FMJ strait to the heart kill instantaneously or would the victim still "walk" and move for a few minutes before he/she collapses? Do you guys know or is it more of a medical question?

Thanks!!

(hey, Rowan, you should be proud of me: I'm learning tons!!! ;) )

Rowan
11-07-2010, 02:09 AM
Thanks, that was impressive.

Which prompted another question: does a FMJ strait to the heart kill instantaneously or would the victim still "walk" and move for a few minutes before he/she collapses? Do you guys know or is it more of a medical question?

Thanks!!

(hey, Rowan, you should be proud of me: I'm learning tons!!! ;) )

Gotta love hollow points! :)

That's the intent of this thread--for us writers to learn more about firearms so we don't make the common mistakes. And, in an informal environment in which NO question is stupid.

Glad to see you made it here, Summonere. I'm sure there's going to be a lot of rifle questions!!

Summonere
11-07-2010, 02:21 AM
Thanks, that was impressive.

Which prompted another question: does a FMJ strait to the heart kill instantaneously or would the victim still "walk" and move for a few minutes before he/she collapses? Do you guys know or is it more of a medical question?

Thanks!!

(hey, Rowan, you should be proud of me: I'm learning tons!!! ;) )

Nope. Not instantaneously. (Same for any other kinda bullet, too.) Plenty of bad guys who were shot dead wreaked plenty of havoc before finally succumbing to their wound(s). In a local case, a belligerent fellow shot through the heart departed his dispute with his neighbor, walked back inside his trailer house, sat down on his couch, and died.

At least one FBI report claims somewhere around thirteen (or is it thirty? maybe Rowan recalls) seconds of consciousness even in cases where the bad guy's heart is completely destroyed.

To put that in minor perspective, my utterly mediocre split times for a simple rhythm fire drill is about .24 seconds. We'll round that up to .25 for simple math. Suppose a bad guy's heart is clipped right off the aorta by a gunshot. Using 13 seconds as our limited timespan, and .25 seconds between shots, our fictional dead bad guy could still fire 52 rounds before losing consciousness and keeling over. Or, if armed with a knife, he could still charge from 21 feet away and chop the head off the person who shot him. Or he could trip a detonator switch on an explosive vest.

Summonere
11-07-2010, 02:33 AM
Glad to see you made it here, Summonere. I'm sure there's going to be a lot of rifle questions!!

Glad to be useful, and possibly informative, too (though I reckon Chase and Stanmiller know more about rifles than I).

P.S. to my earlier post, above, the best chance for an instant stop is a CNS (Central Nervous System) hit, either to the brain or spine. (Which is the reason the UK LE fellow, a few years back, shot that suspected bomber so many times in the head after he saw him leap onto a train with a backpack: he wanted him to stop now, not a few quite-possibly-life-altering-for-many seconds from now.)

Rowan
11-07-2010, 02:39 AM
Nope. Not instantaneously. (Same for any other kinda bullet, too.) Plenty of bad guys who were shot dead wreaked plenty of havoc before finally succumbing to their wound(s). In a local case, a belligerent fellow shot through the heart departed his dispute with his neighbor, walked back inside his trailer house, sat down on his couch, and died.

At least one FBI report claims somewhere around thirteen (or is it thirty? maybe Rowan recalls) seconds of consciousness even in cases where the bad guy's heart is completely destroyed.

To put that in minor perspective, my utterly mediocre split times for a simple rhythm fire drill is about .24 seconds. We'll round that up to .25 for simple math. Suppose a bad guy's heart is clipped right off the aorta by a gunshot. Using 13 seconds as our limited timespan, and .25 seconds between shots, our fictional dead bad guy could still fire 52 rounds before losing consciousness and keeling over. Or, if armed with a knife, he could still charge from 21 feet away and chop the head off the person who shot him. Or he could push a trip a detonator switch on an explosive vest.

I'll have to dig that one up...

Here's another snippet from Wikipedia on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power


Permanent and temporary cavitation cause very different biological effects. The effects of a permanent cavity are fairly obvious. A hole through the heart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart) will cause loss of pumping efficiency, loss of blood, and eventual cardiac arrest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiac_arrest). A hole through the brain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain) can cause instant unconsciousness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconsciousness) and will likely kill the recipient. A hole through an arm or leg which hits only muscle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle), however, will cause a great deal of pain but is unlikely to be fatal, unless one of the large blood vessels (femoral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femoral) or brachial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brachial) arteries, for example) is also severed in the process.

OneWriter
11-07-2010, 02:40 AM
Thanks, this is very informative. It keeps prompting new questions! :D
So then, given the different damage inflicted by a hollow point compared to a FMJ, an expert eye would distinguish the two based on the entrance wound, right?

Rowan
11-07-2010, 02:44 AM
Thanks, this is very informative. It keeps prompting new questions! :D
So then, given the different damage inflicted by a hollow point compared to a FMJ, an expert eye would distinguish the two based on the entrance wound, right?

...and exit wound (if applicable)! We haven't even started talking about ballistics testing yet. :)

BRDurkin
11-07-2010, 04:20 AM
P.S. to my earlier post, above, the best chance for an instant stop is a CNS (Central Nervous System) hit, either to the brain or spine. (Which is the reason the UK LE fellow, a few years back, shot that suspected bomber so many times in the head after he saw him leap onto a train with a backpack: he wanted him to stop now, not a few quite-possibly-life-altering-for-many seconds from now.)

All of my training in firearms has been to the effect that, if you want to stop a target IMMEDIATELY, put a round through the eyes/nose area. There's less chance any bones will cause the round to change course and miss the brain. If you can put a round through there, chances are the target will go down instantly.

In movies, the coup-de-gras shot usually ends up higher on the forehead above the bridge of the nose. While a powerful enough round could punch through the skull, some lighter caliber rounds might not. They could just follow the curvature of the skull around and you'll end up with what amounts to a bad flesh wound. This has happened to soldiers many times in combat.

To sum up, what Summonere said is right, you have to hit the CNS (brain) to stop them for sure. Head shot, and if possible, through the the rectangle formed by the eyes and nose.

Summonere
11-07-2010, 07:23 AM
All of my training in firearms has been to the effect that, if you want to stop a target IMMEDIATELY, put a round through the eyes/nose area. There's less chance any bones will cause the round to change course and miss the brain. If you can put a round through there, chances are the target will go down instantly.


Yep. My comments were more general than that and not intended to suggest that anyone trains specifically to target the spine. (Though it was Hackathorn, or one of the other been-there-done-that trainers who, responding to a terrorist takeover of a grounded airliner, dropped one of the terrorists with a single shot from his Browning Hi-Power, which round perforated the villain front-to-back, exiting by way of the spine. Severing the spine was a byproduct of his aiming point, which was center of chest, but the result was immediate and effective. Whichever trainer, the anecdote was in an article about handgun "stopping power.")

As to those noggin shots outside the prescribed zone, I've seen two interesting failures. One was just above center-of-eyebrows on a big fellow who took a .40 caliber thumping from a police officer whose attempt to arrest was resisted. After getting a bullet bounced off his skull, though, the big and formerly resistant fellow decided to comply with the arrest. In another case, a robber took a shot to the eyebrow from a Glock 26 loaded with Speer Gold Dots (124gr. +P, as I recall), at a distance of about six feet. He escaped only to turn up at a hospital a couple of days later, claiming his injuries were received in a car wreck, never mind that bullet lodged over his left ear, which place it had reached after sliding under the skin from the entry point above the eyebrow.

Summonere
11-07-2010, 07:37 AM
I'll have to dig that one up...

Found it.

Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness

Special Agent Urey W. Patrick
Firearms Training Unit
FBI Academy
Quantico, Virginia
July 14, 1989

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

The time I erroneously cited earlier (13 30 seconds), is actually 10 to 15 seconds, according to the report (last page, under conclusions).

Rowan
11-07-2010, 04:39 PM
Found it.

Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness

Special Agent Urey W. Patrick
Firearms Training Unit
FBI Academy
Quantico, Virginia
July 14, 1989

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

The time I erroneously cited earlier (13 – 30 seconds), is actually 10 to 15 seconds, according to the report (last page, under conclusions).

You were close enough! :)

ETA: POST #9

Will keep an ongoing list of "common mistakes" made in movies/books (firearms). Please let me know if you have anything to add by posting! Thanks :)

Cella
11-07-2010, 05:08 PM
ETA: POST #9

Will keep an ongoing list of "common mistakes" made in movies/books (firearms). Please let me know if you have anything to add by posting! Thanks :)
you've replica written on the side of your gun.

Linda Adams
11-07-2010, 05:58 PM
Here's two questions, since my knowledge is limited to only a few military firearms and maybe some Civil War ones ..

First queston: We have a gate with a couple of uniformed guards--highly trained and expecting trouble. What kind of guns would they have that would signal they're expecting trouble and want to be prepared?

Second question: There's a patrol boat guarding the shoreline. Patrol boat stops a fishing trawler that's gotten too near the shore. What kind of guns would the security patrol have?

In this case, the gate goes to a house owned by a member of the Royal Family. No one knows he's a member of the Royal Family, so the security is an oddity. A spy is trying to figure out who lives in the house. He sees first the patrol boat guards, and then the guard shack and is thinking, "Who is this person? These guards have a lot of firepower."

Thanks!

BTW--for your list in inaccuracies in books, there was one mentioned on these boards sometime ago about a book where the character inserted the bullets into the muzzle to load them.

Kenn
11-07-2010, 06:53 PM
Linda, I asume you mean the British Royal Family. Hand guns are all but banned in the UK and you don't get security guards toting firearms around unless they work for the government. There is a special detachment of Metropolitan Police Officers that look after the Royal Family. The weapons that police usually use are the Glock 17 and MP5 carbine (I believe).

The patrol boat would be a police one also unless it was Royal Navy.

Summonere
11-07-2010, 07:24 PM
BTW--for your list in inaccuracies in books, there was one mentioned on these boards sometime ago about a book where the character inserted the bullets into the muzzle to load them.

Well, that would work if it were a muzzle-loading firearm, but you'd have to put a powder charge down the barrel firsts. My guess, however, is that it wasn't. :)

Linda Adams
11-07-2010, 08:04 PM
Linda, I asume you mean the British Royal Family.

No, it's not. It's the royal family of a fictional country, set in the South Pacific.

Rowan
11-07-2010, 08:14 PM
First queston: We have a gate with a couple of uniformed guards--highly trained and expecting trouble. What kind of guns would they have that would signal they're expecting trouble and want to be prepared?

Second question: There's a patrol boat guarding the shoreline. Patrol boat stops a fishing trawler that's gotten too near the shore. What kind of guns would the security patrol have?

In this case, the gate goes to a house owned by a member of the Royal Family. No one knows he's a member of the Royal Family, so the security is an oddity. A spy is trying to figure out who lives in the house. He sees first the patrol boat guards, and then the guard shack and is thinking, "Who is this person? These guards have a lot of firepower."



Question one: I would think both handguns and automatic rifles, maybe an AR15? I'll let the rifle guys/girls elaborate on that because like you, my experience is with military (USMC and M16). I've shot the AR15 though (father has one) and it's a nice weapon. Looks intimidating too. ;) As for handgun, of course I'll go with a Sig Sauer P-220.
AR15:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/AR15_A3_Tactical_Carbine_pic1.jpg
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/special-weapons/ar-15-perfection/
http://www.ar15.com/

Question two: My thinking is the same for these guys, and maybe an RPG or something crazy! LOL I'm not a boat person though so Summonere/BDurkin (and others) can best respond.

OneWriter
11-07-2010, 08:27 PM
From eHow (http://www.ehow.com/how_2212758_fire-semiautomatic-handgun.html):

1--Inspect the handgun for any barrel obstructions, dirt and debris before firing. Load the magazine with the proper ammunition for the make and model of your semi-automatic handgun. Insert the magazine.

2--Point the handgun downrange. Keep your finger off the trigger and away from the trigger guard. If applicable, release the safety.

3--Grasp the slide and draw it rearward (toward you). Release after the slide has been drawn back fully. A round has now been released into the chamber and the gun is cocked and ready to fire.

4--Grip the handgun with two hands. Extend your arms fully in front of you. Line up the gunsight on your target. Place your finger on the trigger and gently squeeze to fire the gun.

Please re-edit the above as needed. In particular: if I have my cop in a highly tense situation, how do I describe his aiming the gun and firing? I was using the phrase "gun cocked" a lot and now I'm re-editing...

Thanks!

Rowan
11-07-2010, 08:33 PM
From eHow (http://www.ehow.com/how_2212758_fire-semiautomatic-handgun.html):

1--Inspect the handgun for any barrel obstructions, dirt and debris before firing. Load the magazine with the proper ammunition for the make and model of your semi-automatic handgun. Insert the magazine. Don't need all the checking / clearing in street sitch. Of course a cop will have correct ammo and mag inserted. :)


2--Point the handgun downrange. Keep your finger off the trigger and away from the trigger guard. If applicable, release the safety. If Kimber or model with safety, cop would release safety WHILE drawing (simultaneous). Glocks don't have safety so you're good. Finger would go along trigger guard so if needed, easy access to trigger. If you're in a shit hitting fan sitch, finger would likely be on trigger. That's why I like Sig DA/SA models. You can sneeze and fire off a Glock round! :(


3--Grasp the slide and draw it rearward (toward you). Release after the slide has been drawn back fully. A round has now been released into the chamber and the gun is cocked and ready to fire. Round should already be chambered! By the time some people have done this--bad guy has let off at least a few rounds...


4--Grip the handgun with two hands. Extend your arms fully in front of you. Line up the gunsight on your target. Place your finger on the trigger and gently squeeze to fire the gun. At this point, the bad guy has probably killed you... :) Your MC is a cop so this is all instinct--draw, aim, fire. He's well trained and this is second nature.


Please re-edit the above as needed. In particular: if I have my cop in a highly tense situation, how do I describe his aiming the gun and firing? I was using the phrase "gun cocked" a lot and now I'm re-editing...


Thanks!


Your cop carries a Glock, correct? What's the scenario? Is he drawing from the holster? The above sounds like it pertains to "range shooting"... In a highly tense situation, you don't have time to go through all of this. You draw, aim and fire. One, two, three. Plus, speaking as a former fed, I carried loaded, round in the chamber and mag topped off (Sig P-220). So, if the shit hit the fan, I'd draw (from tactical or whatever holster) and be ready for action. I can't think of a situation where a LEO would have to chamber a round, especially a state/local cop (patrol, homicide, etc.). But I may be wrong! ;)

ETA: Prior to going on raids (warrants), everyone would stand around and check the chamber to ensure a round was chambered (and top off if needed). It really is second nature. A split second can mean life or death.

Hope that helps!

OneWriter
11-07-2010, 08:39 PM
Great, thanks!!! :e2flowers
(figured flowers would fit nicely in a firearm thread... *coughs*)

ETA: BTW, I haven't seen the Beretta mentioned in this thread... is that a bad one?

Rowan
11-07-2010, 08:44 PM
Great, thanks!!! :e2flowers
(figured flowers would fit nicely in a firearm thread... *coughs*)

ETA: BTW, I haven't seen the Beretta mentioned in this thread... is that a bad one?

I'm sure others will weigh in too!

Beretta -- not one I'm very familiar with. Have shot it but can't even remember what model!

It's not that any are "good" or "bad"--it's all about personal preference. ;)

Ol' Fashioned Girl
11-07-2010, 09:22 PM
Another point about the 'instinct' being invoked above... people who depend upon their firearms for life and death, practice... practice... practice... and practice some more. You'll hear the term 'muscle memory' used, too. It's the concept that kicks in when the adrenaline is flowing and the brain is sending signals to muscles that have practiced... practiced... practiced... and those muscles do what they're supposed to do (chamber a round, thumb off the safety, take aim (keeping the tender parts of your thumb and the soft tissue between it and your index finger out of the way of the recoiling slide), fire and repeat without conscious thought - all the while your head's thinkin' 'Oh, shit! Oh, shit! Oh! Shit!'.

Rowan
11-07-2010, 09:23 PM
Another point about the 'instinct' being invoked above... people who depend upon their firearms for life and death, practice... practice... practice... and practice some more. You'll hear the term 'muscle memory' used, too. It's the concept that kicks in when the adrenaline is flowing and the brain is sending signals to muscles that have practiced... practiced... practiced... and those muscles do what they're supposed to do (chamber a round, thumb off the safety, take aim (keeping the tender parts of your thumb and the soft tissue between it and your index finger out of the way of the recoiling slide), fire and repeat without conscious thought - all the while your head's thinkin' 'Oh, shit! Oh, shit! Oh! Shit!'.

Exactly. This includes dry firing too! And I can't tell you how many hours I practice every time I get a new holster. :)

Ol' Fashioned Girl
11-07-2010, 09:31 PM
I haven't graduated to any type of holster yet. Ol' Boy has a wallet holster for his Ruger LCP .380 - really great for keeping the outline of the gun from 'imprinting', which isn't legal here in Okiehomey - but he can still pull and fire it without removing it from the wallet.

I carry mine in a specially made leather shoulder bag with a side opening to receive the Bersa. Before I got my license, I used to worry about 'forgetting it' or someone getting hold of it - as in stealing my purse and getting a bonus free gun out of the deal. It's amazing how 'awake and aware' having that gun in my bag has made me. Not only am I much more cognizant of my surroundings, but I am NEVER forgetful of that very deadly weapon in my possession and what it would mean to forget it or lose it.

Drachen Jager
11-07-2010, 09:39 PM
It's not that any are "good" or "bad"--it's all about personal preference. ;)

That's not true.

There ARE bad firearms manufacturers, there are mediocre ones and there are good ones. However, there are a LOT of good ones to choose from, any of: Walther, Glock, FN, Colt, Smith & Wesson, H&K, Steyr, Beretta, Sig-Sauer and probably a half dozen more I'm missing are quality manufacturers. Any of the above will serve well, and as you said it's personal preference (I forget exactly how DeNiro says it in Ronin, but it's something like "It's a toolbox, I use what's appropriate for the job.")

A good place to start when you're looking up firearms is: http://world.guns.ru/

Rowan
11-07-2010, 09:59 PM
That's not true.

There ARE bad firearms manufacturers, there are mediocre ones and there are good ones. However, there are a LOT of good ones to choose from, any of: Walther, Glock, FN, Colt, Smith & Wesson, H&K, Steyr, Beretta, Sig-Sauer and probably a half dozen more I'm missing are quality manufacturers. Any of the above will serve well, and as you said it's personal preference (I forget exactly how DeNiro says it in Ronin, but it's something like "It's a toolbox, I use what's appropriate for the job.")

A good place to start when you're looking up firearms is: http://world.guns.ru/

Allow me to rephrase. They're not all "equal". That's why I put quotes around "good' and "bad". I was speaking more from a 'personal preference' standpoint. For instance, some view Glocks as "bad" and Berettas as the absolute best. It's got nothing to do with manufacturing but personal preference/opinion. :Shrug:

I really hope this thread doesn't turn into a battle of semantics.

Rowan
11-07-2010, 10:19 PM
Who is familiar with Beretta? Can someone give me a rundown on the handguns, please (and to keep it simple--maybe compare Beretta to Sig/Glock). :)

BRDurkin
11-07-2010, 10:27 PM
First queston: We have a gate with a couple of uniformed guards--highly trained and expecting trouble. What kind of guns would they have that would signal they're expecting trouble and want to be prepared?

I am by no means the ultimate authority on this, but here are my recommendations. A fully prepared security guard will have two firearms, a primary and a secondary. For the primary, MP5 is definitely a good choice. M4 (more compact version of the M16/AR-15) is also a top choice for security. The G36C is a European answer to the American M4/M16, but same caliber. And of course, the AK-47 is a popular choice around the world. It's not as accurate at long ranges as the M4, but it's 7.62mm as opposed to 5.56mm.

For secondary (i.e. pistol), there are quite literally dozens of good choices. Springfield, Smith and Wesson, Sig, H&K, etc. If I were a guard and I was serious about my job, whatever pistol I carried would be at minimum .40 caliber, and I'd probably be using hollow points for my rounds.


Second question: There's a patrol boat guarding the shoreline. Patrol boat stops a fishing trawler that's gotten too near the shore. What kind of guns would the security patrol have?

Now this IS right up my alley as I used to be in the Navy and am quite familiar with maritime patrol. It depends on what size the patrol boat is (I've seen some as small as glorified motorboats, and some that were like heavily armed yachts, complete with missiles.) Assuming it's on the smaller end though, I'd say the boat's primary weapons would be dual-mounted .50 caliber machine guns, or perhaps a pair of M240G machine guns, which fire 7.62mm rounds. Both the .50s and the M240Gs can be mounted singly or dually. The M240Gs can also be carried and fired by hand, though it's not recommended. .50s MUST be mounted.

If the guards on the boat have personal firearms, it would likely be some sort of rifle, like the ones I mention in the first question. However, there would probably only be one or two aboard, as manning a machine gun takes pretty much all of one's attention. Pistols are next to useless when being fired from a boat, which is likely rocking back and forth and up and down in the waves, even if it's not moving forward.

Hopefully this answers your questions. If you need anything more specific, I'll be happy to dig up some links and pics for you. ;)

BRDurkin
11-07-2010, 10:34 PM
Who is familiar with Beretta? Can someone give me a rundown on the handguns, please (and to keep it simple--maybe compare Beretta to Sig/Glock). :)

I'm familiar with the Beretta M9, which I used while on sentry duty in the US Navy.

The Beretta M9 uses a 9mm round, and has a magazine capacity of 15+1. It is a very user friendly weapon, with moderate trigger pull and very little felt recoil. It has an external safety/de-cocking lever. Magazine release is located on the left side of the weapon just below the trigger guard. Take-down lever is also on the left side of the weapon, forward under the slide. The M9 used to be very popular with Police, however one reason they transitioned away from it was because the take-down lever was so easy to use, that criminals could reach out, grab the gun, rotate the lever, and the gun would essentially fall apart.

I'm not familiar with the Glock 9mm versions, however I believe magazine capacity is similar to the M9. Also, most Glocks do NOT have external safety/de-cocking levers, and the take down lever is more difficult to operate, and thus safer for someone to use in a close quarters combat situation. I would say quality of the Glock is comparable, if not somewhat higher; however, the Berettas we used in the Navy took a beating, with thousands of rounds fired through them, and we only had 3 break during my 3 years on the ship.

Rowan
11-07-2010, 10:37 PM
I'm familiar with the Beretta M9, which I used while on sentry duty in the US Navy.

The Beretta M9 uses a 9mm round, and has a magazine capacity of 15+1. It is a very user friendly weapon, with moderate trigger pull and very little felt recoil. It has an external safety/de-cocking lever. Magazine release is located on the left side of the weapon just below the trigger guard. Take-down lever is also on the left side of the weapon, forward under the slide. The M9 used to be very popular with Police, however one reason they transitioned away from it was because the take-down lever was so easy to use, that criminals could reach out, grab the gun, rotate the lever, and the gun would essentially fall apart.

I'm not familiar with the Glock 9mm versions, however I believe magazine capacity is similar to the M9. Also, most Glocks do NOT have external safety/de-cocking levers, and the take down lever is more difficult to operate, and thus safer for someone to use in a close quarters combat situation. I would say quality of the Glock is comparable, if not somewhat higher; however, the Berettas we used in the Navy took a beating, with thousands of rounds fired through them, and we only had 3 break during my 3 years on the ship.

Thank you! Is the Beretta M9 DA/SA, DAO or SAO? I'm not a Glock fan (was issued one and trained on it but not a fan).

That's interesting about the take-down lever. I didn't know that about Beretta.

BRDurkin
11-07-2010, 10:41 PM
The M9 is DA/SA. Trigger pull on SA is much, MUCH nicer of course. Instructors got mad at me when I discovered that and was using it to try to make my first shots more accurate. (Hey, train like you fight, right!?) :D

Kenn
11-07-2010, 11:24 PM
No, it's not. It's the royal family of a fictional country, set in the South Pacific.
Then the arms will be determined by the nature of the country and the type of threat. I have been to one country where some restaurants had armed guards with pump action shotguns protecting them (although I wasn't sure who they were protecting them from - in fact I didn't really want to know!). Yet if I walked around my village and saw a security man (or even a policeman for that matter), I would assume there was something badly amiss. If the country is one that is subject to the occasional coup, then it is not unreasonable to expect a tank guarding the place. If it is one that is totally crime free, then visibly armed security men might only draw attention and be politically inexpedient.

Drachen Jager
11-08-2010, 01:49 AM
No, it's not. It's the royal family of a fictional country, set in the South Pacific.

Tongan military uses:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Flag_of_Israel.svg/22px-Flag_of_Israel.svg.png Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) IMI Galil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMI_Galil)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Flag_of_Israel.svg/22px-Flag_of_Israel.svg.png Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) Uzi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzi)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) M4 carbine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_carbine)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) M16 rifle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/Flag_of_Belgium_%28civil%29.svg/22px-Flag_of_Belgium_%28civil%29.svg.png Belgium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium) FN FNC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_FNC)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom) Lee-Enfield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee-Enfield)

Fiji uses:



M16A2 rifle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16A2_rifle)
Daewoo K2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daewoo_K2)


So, presuming your island has a lot in common with those you'd be looking at a mix of European, American and possibly Israeli or Western-allied Asian (Daewoo is Korean) weapons.

Anaximander
11-08-2010, 03:46 PM
Just skimming over this thread to check I'm doing it right in my current action WIP, and I noticed the point about throwing an empty weapon at the enemy. I see you have it listed as a movie mistake, but I have it on good authority that a number of military units, including the US Marines and (I think) the SAS, instruct their soldiers to throw a jammed weapon. If a weapon fails to fire in the field, their instructions are to clear the chamber (in case it's just a dud round), then hold the slide/bolt back and give the weapon a smart whack, which will often knock a crumpled casing clear, and if that fails then they are to chuck the weapon at the enemy's face (or as close as they can get) while reaching for their sidearm. The idea is that if you can't clear the weapon quickly then there's no point trying because you're under fire. Still, the jam makes it as useless to the enemy as it is to you, so you might as well use it to distract them while you switch weapons. If you survive, you can pick it up afterwards and clear the jam. Or just take their gun, if necessary.

Summonere
11-08-2010, 06:44 PM
Well, if you have another gun, then ditching the primary for the secondary can be a good idea. Weapon transition drills cover this contingency (faster to grab another weapon rather than clear a stoppage in the primary, e.g. by SPORTS method: Slap, Pull, Observe, Release, Tap, Shoot; or Tap, Rack, Bang, or still other methodology, depending on what you're using, under what conditions, and what's afoot). But it many movies and TV shows, the gun tosser has no other weapon. It's those cases, when the character tosses away a useful bludgeon, that seem silly. :)

Giant Baby
11-08-2010, 08:06 PM
Rep points and eternal appreciation for everyone in this thread!

Drachen Jager
11-08-2010, 08:38 PM
I have it on good authority that a number of military units, including the US Marines and (I think) the SAS, instruct their soldiers to throw a jammed weapon. If a weapon fails to fire in the field, their instructions are to clear the chamber (in case it's just a dud round), then hold the slide/bolt back and give the weapon a smart whack, which will often knock a crumpled casing clear, and if that fails then they are to chuck the weapon at the enemy's face (or as close as they can get) while reaching for their sidearm.

In the '90s, (or late '80s) when the UK forces were adopting the L85 bullpup rifle the SAS opted for an AR15 variant instead of the L85 because the AR15 has a solid stock which is far more effective in close combat and doesn't damage the rifle when used as a club.

I don't know SAS doctrine but I do know the above is accurate. I'd think that if the enemy was close enough that you could throw your rifle at them it would be faster to charge and hit them with the rifle butt rather than throwing your weapon and drawing a sidearm. It's also much harder to hit a target that's charging at you in that way than someone who's standing there (even if they're throwing something at you).

Noah Body
11-08-2010, 08:53 PM
Another point about the 'instinct' being invoked above... people who depend upon their firearms for life and death, practice... practice... practice... and practice some more. You'll hear the term 'muscle memory' used, too. It's the concept that kicks in when the adrenaline is flowing and the brain is sending signals to muscles that have practiced... practiced... practiced... and those muscles do what they're supposed to do (chamber a round, thumb off the safety, take aim (keeping the tender parts of your thumb and the soft tissue between it and your index finger out of the way of the recoiling slide), fire and repeat without conscious thought - all the while your head's thinkin' 'Oh, shit! Oh, shit! Oh! Shit!'.

Apparently, this officer needs to train a bit more...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/GimpyVision/ladycop.jpg

But at least she had the weapon indexed. :D

Summonere
11-08-2010, 09:02 PM
Holy wow, Batman.

Rowan
11-08-2010, 09:51 PM
Just skimming over this thread to check I'm doing it right in my current action WIP, and I noticed the point about throwing an empty weapon at the enemy. I see you have it listed as a movie mistake, but I have it on good authority that a number of military units, including the US Marines and (I think) the SAS, instruct their soldiers to throw a jammed weapon. If a weapon fails to fire in the field, their instructions are to clear the chamber (in case it's just a dud round), then hold the slide/bolt back and give the weapon a smart whack, which will often knock a crumpled casing clear, and if that fails then they are to chuck the weapon at the enemy's face (or as close as they can get) while reaching for their sidearm. The idea is that if you can't clear the weapon quickly then there's no point trying because you're under fire. Still, the jam makes it as useless to the enemy as it is to you, so you might as well use it to distract them while you switch weapons. If you survive, you can pick it up afterwards and clear the jam. Or just take their gun, if necessary.

HHmmm, I'm a former US Marine and I don't recall being instructed to do this (granted, I've been out a while). I carried a M16 so I'm with Summonere... I'd rather hold onto the M16 and use it as a club versus hurling it in the off chance I hit someone. :) I'd just drop it--as a last resort--and clear it later. There's a reason the Marines have a rifle creed... "This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine..." ;)


Posted by Summonere:
Well, if you have another gun, then ditching the primary for the secondary can be a good idea. Weapon transition drills cover this contingency (faster to grab another weapon rather than clear a stoppage in the primary, e.g. by SPORTS method: Slap, Pull, Observe, Release, Tap, Shoot; or Tap, Rack, Bang, or still other methodology, depending on what you're using, under what conditions, and what's afoot). But it many movies and TV shows, the gun tosser has no other weapon. It's those cases, when the character tosses away a useful bludgeon, that seem silly. :)


Transition drills and clearing drills are taught in both military and federal LE programs. In fact, Marines repeatedly practice clearing jammed weapons. You have to do this automatically, and for good reason. Clearing a jam should be second nature. Personally, I've got more experience with handguns.

Tiger
11-08-2010, 10:03 PM
Thank you! Is the Beretta M9 DA/SA, DAO or SAO? I'm not a Glock fan (was issued one and trained on it but not a fan).

That's interesting about the take-down lever. I didn't know that about Beretta.

I don't like slide-mounted safeties. That was one of the things I didn't like about the S&W (3rd gen) autos. I do like the big, beefy grip and the very smooth action of the Berettas.

Rowan
11-08-2010, 10:08 PM
Rep points and eternal appreciation for everyone in this thread!

I just received approx 20 reps! :D Thank you! :yessmiley

Stanmiller
11-08-2010, 10:11 PM
From eHow (http://www.ehow.com/how_2212758_fire-semiautomatic-handgun.html):

1--Inspect the handgun for any barrel obstructions, dirt and debris before firing. Load the magazine with the proper ammunition for the make and model of your semi-automatic handgun. Insert the magazine.

2--Point the handgun downrange. Keep your finger off the trigger and away from the trigger guard. If applicable, release the safety.

3--Grasp the slide and draw it rearward (toward you). Release after the slide has been drawn back fully. A round has now been released into the chamber and the gun is cocked and ready to fire.

4--Grip the handgun with two hands. Extend your arms fully in front of you. Line up the gunsight on your target. Place your finger on the trigger and gently squeeze to fire the gun.

Please re-edit the above as needed. In particular: if I have my cop in a highly tense situation, how do I describe his aiming the gun and firing? I was using the phrase "gun cocked" a lot and now I'm re-editing...

Thanks!


One,

The list above is incomplete in that it doesn't speak to the presentation of the weapon--the draw--as it's called. Steps one, two, and three above will be done at some previous time. For an LEO, that would be before going on shift. For military, it would be before deploying on the assigned mission.

Single action pistols (Browning Hi-Power, 1911, others) are usually carried in Condition One, a round in the chamber, cocked, safety on. That's 'cocked and locked'.

DA/SA pistols with decockers are carried in condition two, round in the chamber, decocked, safety on. Example is the base SIG P220. The P220 is also available as DAO and single actions. Some DA/SA pistols with normal safeties can be carried cocked and locked like a single action. The Beretta 92FS/M9 is one example, though they can also be decocked.

DAO pistols cannot be manually cocked so are carried in condition two. The hammer (or striker) is recocked by the trigger for every shot.

Cops use a retention holster, with some type of quick-release mechanical device to lock the weapon into the holster. This is to prevent the weapon from being snatched and turned against the officer. Military also uses a retention holster, but it more likely to be a tactical drop holster on the thigh rather than at waist level.

To present the weapon, the officer releases the retention device, pulls the weapon from the holster with the finger OUTSIDE the trigger guard. If there is a thumb safety, it may be released during the draw, but that depends on the particular department's training regulations. After the weapon clears the holster, the weak hand comes in to support the pistol.

After the weapon comes to eye level, the arms are extended and the sight picture is established. Here's where the LEO makes one final check of the threat level before firing. This requires focusing on the weapon displayed. The problem is that shooters tend to shoot where they look, which leads to misses, as the opponent's weapon becomes the target.

In a life-threatening situation with no possibility of escape, the preferred technique is to ignore the opponent's weapon. Instead, establish a flash sight picture on the center of mass. In the flash sight picture, the focus is on the front sight. The target is blurred, as is the rear sight. The first shot is taken, then as the pistol settles back down, another shot is taken without a sight picture. Repeat as necessary until the opponent falls down. This is the 'double tap' and takes thousands of rounds over many, many hours of practice.

As OFG said, in a high-stress, adrenalin-hazed situation, muscle memory has to take over. That said, some LE departments don't require practice, but depend on semi-annual or annual qualifications to maintain proficiency. Chase could chime in here, as that's what he does for a living.

I'm not in LE, but I average around 5K rounds a year on the range and in IDPA and IPSC matches. Many IDPA and IPSC shooters are cops getting in extra practice, so I hear them talk about their procedures.

A word or two about calibers and ammo. The trend these days is toward defense loads with higher velocity, lighter weight bullets. For example, the standard pressure .45 ACP 230 grain bullet trundles along at 800-900 feet per second depending on barrel length. The 165 grain .45 +P comes out at around 1200 fps with almost double the energy (around 550 lb-ft vs 350 lb-ft for the standard pressure load).

This applies to other calibers too. 9mm +P and .38 Special +P velocities are approaching those of the .357 Mag.

Hope this helps clarify some of the stuff you see on TV and in the movies.


Stan

GeorgeK
11-08-2010, 10:33 PM
Cool thread...
My question is more personal than literary. I have nerve damage and what used to be a favorite (1911 Model A 45) is simply no longer a safe option because of dropping things on a semi-regular basis. There are parts of my almost 200 acres that I fear to go to because assholes dropping unwanted puppies in rural areas have lead to a a feral rottweiler living in part of our woods. It hunted me once, but I was healthy then and had a rifle with me at the time and didn't know its reputation, so I merely fired in the dirt as opposed to actually shooting it (believe it or not that works better for pets that attack livestock as opposed to killing them because then the owners simply acquire new pets whom you then need to teach to respect the boundaries).

Anyway I was thinking a 38 revolver might be the thing to carry and allow me to try to walk with some delusion of safety. What have I missed?

I mentioned this to one of my brothers who is ex-military and ex-cop along with what I looked at at the local pawn shop and he exclaimed, "Thank God the waiting period made you not buy a "_____" those thing are more likely to blow up in your hand than actually fire a bullet!"

OneWriter
11-08-2010, 10:47 PM
Thanks, Stan. I've put your message above in a doc and saved for reference, together with Rowan's and everybody else's.
Thanks to all of you guys my ms is free of the phrase "gun cocked". Ha. :D

I don't watch TV but I've been doped by many, many books.

Oh, and my cop friend told me that especially with backup weapons, which are usually revolvers, they file down the sear so they cannot be cocked.

Stanmiller
11-08-2010, 10:59 PM
Cool thread...
My question is more personal than literary. I have nerve damage and what used to be a favorite (1911 Model A 45) is simply no longer a safe option because of dropping things on a semi-regular basis. There are parts of my almost 200 acres that I fear to go to because assholes dropping unwanted puppies in rural areas have lead to a a feral rottweiler living in part of our woods. It hunted me once, but I was healthy then and had a rifle with me at the time and didn't know its reputation, so I merely fired in the dirt as opposed to actually shooting it (believe it or not that works better for pets that attack livestock as opposed to killing them because then the owners simply acquire new pets whom you then need to teach to respect the boundaries).

Anyway I was thinking a 38 revolver might be the thing to carry and allow me to try to walk with some delusion of safety. What have I missed?

I mentioned this to one of my brothers who is ex-military and ex-cop along with what I looked at at the local pawn shop and he exclaimed, "Thank God the waiting period made you not buy a "_____" those thing are more likely to blow up in your hand than actually fire a bullet!"

G,
The top choice would be a 12 gauge pump with low-recoil 00 buckshot. But if you prefer a handgun, the 4" S&W M629 with a snake shot round in the first chamber might be a better choice than the .38. If the snake shot doesn't deter the rott, the full-house 240 gr JHPs in the other 5 chambers will put him down. Been there, done that.

Stan

Drachen Jager
11-08-2010, 11:28 PM
Cool thread...
My question is more personal than literary. I have nerve damage and what used to be a favorite (1911 Model A 45) is simply no longer a safe option because of dropping things on a semi-regular basis. There are parts of my almost 200 acres that I fear to go to because assholes dropping unwanted puppies in rural areas have lead to a a feral rottweiler living in part of our woods. It hunted me once, but I was healthy then and had a rifle with me at the time and didn't know its reputation, so I merely fired in the dirt as opposed to actually shooting it (believe it or not that works better for pets that attack livestock as opposed to killing them because then the owners simply acquire new pets whom you then need to teach to respect the boundaries).

Anyway I was thinking a 38 revolver might be the thing to carry and allow me to try to walk with some delusion of safety. What have I missed?

I mentioned this to one of my brothers who is ex-military and ex-cop along with what I looked at at the local pawn shop and he exclaimed, "Thank God the waiting period made you not buy a "_____" those thing are more likely to blow up in your hand than actually fire a bullet!"

Pepper spray would be the thing to carry. Honestly, even if you're fully able and well trained your odds of surviving an attack would likely be greater with the spray than the pistol.

GeorgeK
11-08-2010, 11:31 PM
G,
The top choice would be a 12 gauge pump with low-recoil 00 buckshot. But if you prefer a handgun, the 4" S&W M629 with a snake shot round in the first chamber might be a better choice than the .38. If the snake shot doesn't deter the rott, the full-house 240 gr JHPs in the other 5 chambers will put him down. Been there, done that.

Stan

If the weight of my SKS wasn't an issue, I would carry it on treks, so since the shotgun will weigh more, it's not an option. Yes, it sucks when you have to trim 5 pounds off your baggage including the weight of your clothes. I've become such a recluse that....you don't need to know about or care about that...

What's a snake shot?

Noah Body
11-08-2010, 11:34 PM
Just skimming over this thread to check I'm doing it right in my current action WIP, and I noticed the point about throwing an empty weapon at the enemy. I see you have it listed as a movie mistake, but I have it on good authority that a number of military units, including the US Marines and (I think) the SAS, instruct their soldiers to throw a jammed weapon. If a weapon fails to fire in the field, their instructions are to clear the chamber (in case it's just a dud round), then hold the slide/bolt back and give the weapon a smart whack, which will often knock a crumpled casing clear, and if that fails then they are to chuck the weapon at the enemy's face (or as close as they can get) while reaching for their sidearm. The idea is that if you can't clear the weapon quickly then there's no point trying because you're under fire. Still, the jam makes it as useless to the enemy as it is to you, so you might as well use it to distract them while you switch weapons. If you survive, you can pick it up afterwards and clear the jam. Or just take their gun, if necessary.

Never came across this in the Army, and went through basic in 1984, and Special Forces-led advanced weapons training annually from 1987 to 2004. Throwing a jammed weapon either away or at an approaching enemy combatant was never discussed. I think this is a falsehood. Will reach out to others closer to the ground for verification, but during my time, we would be heavily remiss for tossing a weapon.

Stanmiller
11-08-2010, 11:35 PM
Pepper spray would be the thing to carry. Honestly, even if you're fully able and well trained your odds of surviving an attack would likely be greater with the spray than the pistol.

Good point. Kimber sells a couple squirters that work. The thing is, with only two doses of the stuff, you can't afford to miss. They're not much good as a club.

Stanmiller
11-08-2010, 11:38 PM
If the weight of my SKS wasn't an issue, I would carry it on treks, so since the shotgun will weigh more, it's not an option. Yes, it sucks when you have to trim 5 pounds off your baggage including the weight of your clothes. I've become such a recluse that....you don't need to know about or care about that...

What's a snake shot?

Snake shot? A round charged with steel balls instead of a bullet.

CCI makes them for several handgun calibers.

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/pestcontrol_specialty.aspx

Rowan
11-08-2010, 11:39 PM
Good point. Kimber sells a couple squirters that work. The thing is, with only two doses of the stuff, you can't afford to miss. They're not much good as a club.

Not only that, but I can tell you from personal experience that all pepper spray does to pit bulls is piss them off. A feral rott is pretty much same as a pit, IMHO. :)

Might as well add an ASP to the mix, if you've got room to carry extra gear. ;)

GeorgeK
11-08-2010, 11:42 PM
Pepper spray would be the thing to carry. Honestly, even if you're fully able and well trained your odds of surviving an attack would likely be greater with the spray than the pistol.

That actually sounds like something to consider. I think I can envision the theoreticals as well, hence my admission of a "delusion of safety".

GeorgeK
11-08-2010, 11:47 PM
Not only that, but I can tell you from personal experience that all pepper spray does to pit bulls is piss them off. A feral rott is pretty much same as a pit, IMHO. :)

Might as well add an ASP to the mix, if you've got room to carry extra gear. ;)

What's an ASP?, and no there isn't room for extra gear. It sucks to have a couple pounds be the difference between taking a walk or not, but at least I can take a walk, unlike say a parapalegic. Think a quad who can walk, not run, and for a random 30 minutes a day can use his arms.

I have a feeling you're going to tell me the same thing that my wife says, "Don't go there!"

Rowan
11-08-2010, 11:52 PM
What's an ASP?, and no there isn't room for extra gear. It sucks to have a couple pounds be the difference between taking a walk or not, but at least I can take a walk, unlike say a parapalegic. Think a quad who can walk, not run, and for a random 30 minutes a day can use his arms.

I have a feeling you're going to tell me the same thing that my wife says, "Don't go there!"

A tactical baton. :)
http://www.batondefense.com/asp-tactical-baton.html

Tiger
11-08-2010, 11:54 PM
.45 here too......

On another note: What are the most common gun-related mistakes you see in movies or read in books?

ETA: **Will keep a list here and edit as needed:



Saw a movie in which the heroine was taking left-handed aim at a guy with an Aug--with the ejection port pressed against her face. Good thing (for her) she didn't get off her shot...

GeorgeK
11-08-2010, 11:57 PM
A tactical baton. :)
http://www.batondefense.com/asp-tactical-baton.html

No even my delusions won't get past the prospect of hand to hand, or in this scenario hand to teeth. If it got to the point of melee then I'm a gonner.

I'm kindof wondering if my best bet would be a pack of matches and some firecrackers..

Rowan
11-09-2010, 12:25 AM
No even my delusions won't get past the prospect of hand to hand, or in this scenario hand to teeth. If it got to the point of melee then I'm a gonner.

I'm kindof wondering if my best bet would be a pack of matches and some firecrackers..

I'm laughing here and my co-workers think I'm nuts! :) (Not at your situation, just your phrasing ;) ).

Drachen Jager
11-09-2010, 12:43 AM
As to the theme of the thread, common mistakes in movies/books.

Riding the action! Nearly every TV show and movie you see the actors ride the action of an automatic forward. You are supposed to pull the action back and then let go the spring pulls it forward. 99% of the time in film the actor holds the cocking lever/slide all the way forwards and back.

Quick deaths. I know, they don't want to disgust their audiences with gory, drawn out, gasping, howling, miserable deaths but that's how people die from gunshot wounds. That was one of the things I appreciated in Reservoir Dogs. It's extremely rare that someone dies within seconds after being shot only a couple of times. I always recall this report I read once on a police shooting. Cop pulls driver over. Driver asks to lock up his truck and cop lets him. Guy pulls a .357 from the glove box and opens up. Cop fires back, hits the guy 14 times in the torso before switching to head-shots. The second head-shot does the job, which was fortunate because the guy had just unlocked the box on the back of his truck where he kept an SMG. That is an exceptional case but you get the point I think.

Cop was using 9mm by the way. He lived, all but 2 of the .357 shots were stopped by his vest.

GeorgeK
11-09-2010, 12:50 AM
I'm laughing here and my co-workers think I'm nuts! :) (Not at your situation, just your phrasing ;) ).

Believe me...I am not insulted. If anything I am edified that someone took my concerns seriously. It means that maybe I'm not the only one...

Summonere
11-09-2010, 01:10 AM
[RE: my comments on clearing malfunctions vs. transitioning to another weapon]

Transition drills and clearing drills are taught in both military and federal LE programs. In fact, Marines repeatedly practice clearing jammed weapons. You have to do this automatically, and for good reason. Clearing a jam should be second nature. Personally, I've got more experience with handguns.

Yeah, I thought about that before posting, but I think if I had a backup weapon, and the target was within range, I'd likely rather grab the backup than, say, clear a double feed. I took Anaximander's "toss weapon in face" to mean that the fight was at very close range. If, however, the fight were at extremely close range, then bashing, as Drachen Jager pointed out, may well be a jim dandy response in the realm of circumstance-dependent action. In other words, someone might be quick with malfunction clearances, but I'm not sure they'd be quick enough at lunging distances. In any event, always happy to learn.

Kenn
11-09-2010, 01:15 AM
I can fully appreciate your trepidation, GeorgeK. I was chased by a big, ugly, brown dog a couple of years ago when I was cycling past a farm. This thing's eyes lit up as soon as it saw me and it came charging forward. I just about broke the land-speed record, although it must have looked like something out of Tom and Jerry. Every time this thing leapt up to take a chunk out of my backside, it lost that vital bit of ground. Thankfully, it gave up in the end, which was just as well because my chain came off. If I'd had a gun there, I would have shot it on the spot. But then again, it was probably as well I hadn't; you can get sent to prison for just putting a cat in a wheelie-bin in Britain, never mind blowing a dog's head clean off with a Magnum 44.

If I were you George, I would get in touch with the local rifle club and put a contract out on this killer in the woods. Go on the offensive.

Rowan
11-09-2010, 02:24 AM
Yeah, I thought about that before posting, but I think if I had a backup weapon, and the target was within range, I'd likely rather grab the backup than, say, clear a double feed. I took Anaximander's "toss weapon in face" to mean that the fight was at very close range. If, however, the fight were at extremely close range, then bashing, as Drachen Jager pointed out, may well be a jim dandy response in the realm of circumstance-dependent action. In other words, someone might be quick with malfunction clearances, but I'm not sure they'd be quick enough at lunging distances. In any event, always happy to learn.

I was totally agreeing with your post--I don't think tossing a weapon at someone is going to do a lot of good, and I agreed with your assessment that one should put it to better use (bashing). :)

RE: the latter, I just wanted to point out that USMC/Fed are relentless when it comes to both transition and "clearing" drills, which is a good thing. Like you, I'd also go for the backup weapon versus clearing if someone was at close range, and would resort to bludgeoning if they were on top of me. :)

Rowan
11-09-2010, 02:27 AM
Believe me...I am not insulted. If anything I am edified that someone took my concerns seriously. It means that maybe I'm not the only one...

You know, what's also concerning is this feral rottie could get rabies and that would be an even worse situation. I'm thinking you live outside animal control jurisdiction?

You're not the only one--I've had issues with pit bulls and shepherds before. And a very large Husky! :( I used the ASP on the latter.

ETA: And I seriously wasn't laughing at you or making light of the situation. I think it was the phrase "teeth-to-teeth" followed by the word "melee" that got me started (for the visuals that ensued). It's been a very long day! :)

Summonere
11-09-2010, 02:55 AM
I was totally agreeing with your post--I don't think tossing a weapon at someone is going to do a lot of good, and I agreed with your assessment that one should put it to better use (bashing). :)

RE: the latter, I just wanted to point out that USMC/Fed are relentless when it comes to both transition and "clearing" drills, which is a good thing. Like you, I'd also go for the backup weapon versus clearing if someone was at close range, and would resort to bludgeoning if they were on top of me. :)

Oh. Here I thought I'd been a miscommunicator, sought to rectify that, and instead discovered that I was a misunderstander. How like me. :)

Ol' Fashioned Girl
11-09-2010, 03:00 AM
GeorgeK, Kenn's got part of a good idea... instead of putting a contract out on the rott with the local rifle club, contact your nearest Rottie rescue group and see if they can trap a feral and get him rehabilitated. And if he can't be rehabbed, they can at least have him put down humanely.

Rowan
11-09-2010, 04:04 AM
GeorgeK, Kenn's got part of a good idea... instead of putting a contract out on the rott with the local rifle club, contact your nearest Rottie rescue group and see if they can trap a feral and get him rehabilitated. And if he can't be rehabbed, they can at least have him put down humanely.

I second this. The poor dog may have been abandoned. Dogs aren't meant to be wild... :( I'm sure any rescue group would try and help (although I must admit I have no idea where you live and if there are even rescue groups nearby).

Rowan
11-09-2010, 04:06 AM
I don't like slide-mounted safeties. That was one of the things I didn't like about the S&W (3rd gen) autos. I do like the big, beefy grip and the very smooth action of the Berettas.

Someone was just asking me about S&W. How do they compare to Sigs?

Tiger
11-09-2010, 04:37 AM
Someone was just asking me about S&W. How do they compare to Sigs?

I've tried three different types (Browning type, Glock type and new Walther type), but the one with which I'm most familiar is a 3rd generation stainless job that weighed in at 38 oz. It was in .40 cal and had a big kick. It wasn't very accurate, and it jammed more than once.

BRDurkin
11-09-2010, 04:47 AM
You're not the only one--I've had issues with pit bulls and shepherds before. And a very large Husky! :( I used the ASP on the latter.


When I lived in Argentina, feral and/or rabid dogs were a huge issue. We didn't have guns or ASPs though. We had machetes. Thankfully, never had to use one. Every dog - even the crazy ones - knew if you were carrying a machete, you meant business. :D

Anaximander
11-09-2010, 01:03 PM
I think the throwing of a jammed gun seems to mostly apply to SMGs, from what I can tell.

Kenn
11-09-2010, 02:20 PM
....Dogs aren't meant to be wild... :( I'm sure any rescue group would try and help (although I must admit I have no idea where you live and if there are even rescue groups nearby).
I wasn't been enirely serious about using the dog for target practice, but something needs to be done about it. I doubt with a dog of that breed, it could ever be trusted in family surroundings after being allowed to run wild. The dog is the unfortunate victim, but you have to think about what would happen if it was allowed to roam free. It could easily savage a child by the sound of it.

Rowan
11-09-2010, 02:34 PM
I wasn't been enirely serious about using the dog for target practice, but something needs to be done about it. I doubt with a dog of that breed, it could ever be trusted in family surroundings after being allowed to run wild. The dog is the unfortunate victim, but you have to think about what would happen if it was allowed to roam free. It could easily savage a child by the sound of it.

Yep, I'm aware of all this--was just seconding OFG's sentiment that a rescue might be best equipped to deal with the situation, especially if Animal Control doesn't cover his jurisdiction, etc. AND, "what would happen if it's allowed to roam free" is precisely why we both suggested a rescue come and retrieve it. That was the gist of Dr. George's entire post and why we suggested various weaponry for his protection. ;)

And now back to firearms...........

Was discussing this with someone off-board. Let's say your MC works for Department X and according to her SOI, Department X carries A, B or C (approved) firearms. Do you think the MC should carry one of the listed firearms or would it be acceptable if they carried something else entirely (it's fiction, after all)? The feds have a pretty long list of approved firearms (and you can carry your personally owned weapon if approved), so I was surprised to learn most local/state had a short list. I understand the reasoning--interchangeable mags, training/proficiency and all, etc. To all the cops and former cops out there--RJK, Rugrat--is this the case?

I think she can get away with using another firearm unless the story is focused on the actual PD. And no, this isn't my way of getting Sig Sauer incorporated into everyone's story! ;)
(:yessmiley)

GeorgeK
11-09-2010, 05:14 PM
I'm thinking you live outside animal control jurisdiction?


Yeah, they said call the game warden and the game warden said, "Just shoot the sucker." It might be all moot. I haven't seen it this year and wonder if the last winter or coyotes got it. Without knowing, I'm still leary about the denser parts of the woods.

Summonere
11-09-2010, 07:57 PM
Someone was just asking me about S&W. How do they compare to Sigs?

Can't vouch for the pre-striker-fired S&W pistols (with the exception of one DAO version, which I didn't like), but the new M&P pistols are great. But with a listed trigger pull of 6.5lbs, their standard triggers are stiffer than the standard SA trigger pull on Sigs (listed at 4.4lbs). Ergonomics and trigger preferences aside, in comparable pistols, the M&Ps are lighter.

Summonere
11-09-2010, 08:02 PM
Yeah, they said call the game warden and the game warden said, "Just shoot the sucker."...

This is a common solution among the farmers and rural folks around here.

Stanmiller
11-09-2010, 10:07 PM
Can't vouch for the pre-striker-fired S&W pistols (with the exception of one DAO version, which I didn't like), but the new M&P pistols are great. But with a listed trigger pull of 6.5lbs, their standard triggers are stiffer than the standard SA trigger pull on Sigs (listed at 4.4lbs). Ergonomics and trigger preferences aside, in comparable pistols, the M&Ps are lighter.

I've shot a borrowed .40 M&P at an IDPA match. The critter sits nice and low in the hand. That deep beavertail helps it get back on target between double taps, even with the snappy .40 cal. It was a new pistol so the trigger felt a bit gritty. As Summonere says, the trigger pull is 6 or so pounds but it felt heavier. It should improve as the round count goes up, like their revolvers.

The grip angle seems about the same as the 1911. The Hi-Power and Springfield XD are my go-to IDPA shooters so there's just a bit of adjustment in wrist angle required, but after a mag, it was shooting dead on.

The M&P doesn't require nearly as much grip adjustment as a Glock. The first few mags from a Glock alway go way high until I adjust to the Luger-like grip angle.

All that said, I don't think a fella would go wrong with one. I shoot ambidextrously so I like the slide stop on both sides of the pistol. Too bad the mag release isn't ambidextrous though. I might pop for one if it was.

Stan

Tiger
11-09-2010, 11:26 PM
Not familiar with an M&P... Is that Smith's 1911?

Stanmiller
11-09-2010, 11:47 PM
The M&P is their new polymer frame pistol that takes advantage of the brand recognition of the M&P revolver line (Model 10 and Model 13 K-frames, no longer produced). They are more expensive than the Smock...er Sigma line, which are priced to compete with Glock.

The SW1911 is a different line. Somewhat pricey IMO. The Taurus 1911 has pretty much the same bells and whistles for about two-thirds the price.

Rowan
11-10-2010, 01:55 AM
Thank you for all the S&W info! :)

Got another question for all:

IF you were only able to own ONE handgun--what's your choice?

Me? Sig P-220 (of course)

Summonere
11-10-2010, 02:03 AM
Depends on what I might reasonably expect to need it for. A good .357 Magnum revolver covers most bases from defense to hunting, with its .38 Special and .357 Magnum capabilities. These days, though, were I to own only one handgun, it would likely be a Glock, XD, or M&P. No special preference for one or the other.

...

Okay. I'll modify that.

Unless things have changed, parts are still most widely and readily available for Glocks, followed by the M&P, and apparently not so much with the XD. So it would likely be a Glock.

Tiger
11-10-2010, 02:09 AM
I'd take a P7. Call me weird.

Summonere
11-10-2010, 02:11 AM
I'd take a P7. Call me weird.

How about discerning.

Drachen Jager
11-10-2010, 02:22 AM
Mk. 23

Stanmiller
11-10-2010, 02:24 AM
IF you were only able to own ONE handgun--what's your choice?

Have to go with the Browning Hi-Power. With Cor-Bon 115 gr +P running at 1350 fps, it's close to the .357 Mag in power. The way it fits the hand and seems to point itself is pure magic.

A good 1911 would be a close second, with the S&W M629 .44 Mag in third place.

Tiger
11-10-2010, 02:27 AM
Mk. 23


Whoa. That's an excellent choice too. Big and expensive, but beautiful.

Tiger
11-10-2010, 02:29 AM
How about discerning.

Well, people love 'em or hate 'em. I've found them great to shoot. They do heat up quite a bit though.

Ol' Fashioned Girl
11-10-2010, 02:57 AM
Call me a wuss, but I love my Bersa .380 - the 'big' one, not the CC, if I had to choose... then, the Glock as a close runner-up.

brainstorm77
11-10-2010, 04:05 AM
Thank you for all the S&W info! :)

Got another question for all:

IF you were only able to own ONE handgun--what's your choice?

Me? Sig P-220 (of course)

Something that has a trigger?:tongue

Rowan
11-10-2010, 04:18 AM
Something that has a trigger?:tongue

I predict you are a closet SIG girl. ;)

Adam
11-10-2010, 04:21 AM
I want a .45 Desert Eagle :D

I don't care if it's innacurate, heavy, or prone to kill its owner, I'm purely after aesthetics. :tongue

(It was the pistol of choice in computer games in my teenage years :D )

brainstorm77
11-10-2010, 04:25 AM
I predict you are a closet SIG girl. ;)

If it's shiny!

Drachen Jager
11-10-2010, 04:41 AM
The only advantage of the Desert Eagle (over other autos) is that when you walk up behind someone and press it against their back in a menacing way you can actually still fire the weapon if you need to. Otherwise, it's pretty, but that's about it.

Adam
11-10-2010, 04:44 AM
That's good enough for me. ;)

(Though given that I live in the UK, it's all a non-issue)

Rowan
11-10-2010, 04:44 AM
Check out the latest SIG Sweepstakes--P220 Equinox. I've got the .40 cal but I'm entering to win this baby:

https://www.sigsauer.com/TeamSig/Sweepstakes.aspx

Tiger
11-10-2010, 05:45 AM
The only advantage of the Desert Eagle (over other autos) is that when you walk up behind someone and press it against their back in a menacing way you can actually still fire the weapon if you need to. Otherwise, it's pretty, but that's about it.

I think you could do that with your MK23 as well.

Drachen Jager
11-10-2010, 05:59 AM
Nah, the DE is the only pistol I know of where the slide doesn't come all the way forward. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n66gdGTmSZM It's hard to explain, watch the video and you'll see that the front part of the pistol doesn't move when the action is cycling, most other autos don't work that way (ALL others I know of). It's gas operated as opposed to nearly all other auto pistols which are blowback operated.

Tiger
11-10-2010, 06:38 AM
Nah, the DE is the only pistol I know of where the slide doesn't come all the way forward. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n66gdGTmSZM It's hard to explain, watch the video and you'll see that the front part of the pistol doesn't move when the action is cycling, most other autos don't work that way (ALL others I know of). It's gas operated as opposed to nearly all other auto pistols which are blowback operated.

Well, there's the P7. The barrel's fixed.

Summonere
11-10-2010, 07:02 AM
There's also the XD, the guide rod of which protrudes to prevent taking the slide out of battery if the pistol is pressed into something in need of getting shot. Were the slide out of battery, the disconnector safety would prevent the striker from releasing even if the trigger were pulled.

Then there's the Walther P38, and the Luger, and the Ruger Mark I, II, and III. And the Browning Buck Mark series. And, I suspect, pistols like the Norinco 77B (fixed barrel).

Stanmiller
11-10-2010, 07:17 AM
It's gas operated as opposed to nearly all other auto pistols which are blowback operated.

Hold on there, pardner. The blowback design with its fixed barrel is useful only for low-powered pistols such as .22, .25, .32 and some .380. The mass of the slide absorbs the recoil impulse. With more powerful cartridges, the slide mass becomes too great so most 9mm and larger pistols are locked breech design, using recoil to operate the mechanism. The only blowback operated 9s I know of are the Hi-Point lumps and the HK P7 squeeze-cocker with its gas-delayed blowback design.

Quite a few subguns such as the MP5, Uzi, and others are blowback designs. The weight of the bolt isn't a drawback in a subgun.

Stan

Chase
11-10-2010, 07:40 AM
The only advantage of the Desert Eagle (over other autos) is that when you walk up behind someone and press it against their back in a menacing way you can actually still fire the weapon if you need to.

Are you referring to the sear disconnect "safety," which are part of pistols in the 1911 design?

Many, many other semiautomatics can and will fire even with the barrel pressed against an object. This is the danger of armchair experts passing along myths instead of first-hand experience.

If your fictional hero counts on that method to thwart the villain armed with any autoloader other than a 1911 or knockoff, he could well cash in his chips. Even with the 1911, a bit of movement could effect a reconnect of the sear and BLAM!

Drachen Jager
11-10-2010, 10:09 AM
Are you referring to the sear disconnect "safety," which are part of pistols in the 1911 design?

Different pistols have different methods of accomplishing the goal. But I'm unaware of any auto pistols that can be fired with the slide partly back, first off it would be incredibly dangerous, second it's very simple to accomplish mechanically. For example on the Mk. 23 the hammer can't strike the firing pin once the slide is pushed back, even a little.

Drachen Jager
11-10-2010, 10:11 AM
Hold on there, pardner. The blowback design with its fixed barrel is useful only for low-powered pistols such as .22, .25, .32 and some .380. The mass of the slide absorbs the recoil impulse. With more powerful cartridges, the slide mass becomes too great so most 9mm and larger pistols are locked breech design, using recoil to operate the mechanism. The only blowback operated 9s I know of are the Hi-Point lumps and the HK P7 squeeze-cocker with its gas-delayed blowback design.

Quite a few subguns such as the MP5, Uzi, and others are blowback designs. The weight of the bolt isn't a drawback in a subgun.

Stan

Sorry my mistake, I meant recoil operated.

Nivarion
11-10-2010, 12:00 PM
MC of my WIP starts the story with a Colt M1911 and a smuggled home M14 that her grandfather brought home from Korea.

They later get stolen, and she is given (in unashamed deus ex) an AR-15 with a Grendel upper and a side arm, though I'm not sure what to use yet.

a couple of questions though.

1. How exactly would grandpa have gone about that?
2. Were M14's of that time frame select fire or should I go with a latter war?
3. Where is the select fire switch? Can someone hit it while stressed and blow through all their ammo?

Suggestions on that side arm? She's going in to fight armored men, wearing everything from chain mail and cotton gambeson to plate armor with type 1 ballistic vests underneath. Oh and some of them will have magic and guns too.

I can give her literally anything she can carry. And if you have any rifles that would be better for her to take that's great too.

And while I'm here, my pet peeve gun thing in stories is when someone can pick up a gun for the first time and couldn't hit the ground if they aimed for it, or when they could hit a crow's eye at 800 yards with a pistol. Both grate the same nerve.

Stanmiller
11-10-2010, 04:53 PM
MC of my WIP starts the story with a Colt M1911 and a smuggled home M14 that her grandfather brought home from Korea.

They later get stolen, and she is given (in unashamed deus ex) an AR-15 with a Grendel upper and a side arm, though I'm not sure what to use yet.

a couple of questions though.

1. How exactly would grandpa have gone about that? As a competition pistol shooter in the Navy, I tried but never came up with a foolproof way to take one of the custom Colt National Match 1911A1s with me. Maybe there's some army pukes ground pounders that could give some pointers.

2. Were M14's of that time frame select fire or should I go with a latter war? M14 could fire semi-auto and full auto. The ones I shot in the late sixties were converted to fire semi-auto only.

3. Where is the select fire switch? Can someone hit it while stressed and blow through all their ammo? The selector switch is on the right side of the receiver, directly above the trigger, where the thumb of the firing hand can reach it. I think it probably could be moved inadvertently.

Suggestions on that side arm? She's going in to fight armored men, wearing everything from chain mail and cotton gambeson to plate armor with type 1 ballistic vests underneath. Oh and some of them will have magic and guns too.

I can give her literally anything she can carry. And if you have any rifles that would be better for her to take that's great too.

I've done a bit of long-range shooting too, so how about a .50 cal Barrett M82A? About thirty pounds, but will shoot through seven or eight of the dudes wearing body armor if they're lined up right. Too heavy? Then maybe the Accuracy International AW in .338 Lapua. If that's still too much, a US Army M24 or Remington M700 with synthetic stock in .300 Win Mag. These are all bolt action sniper rifles except for the Barrett. For assault rifles, the HK G36 in 5.56 NATO would be an alternate choice to the AR/M4/M16. The G36 doesn't gum up like the AR.

The problem with the 6.5 Grendel would be finding ammo for it. It has fine ballistics, but is an uncommon caliber. 5.56 (.223) and 7.62 NATO (.308), along with the 7.62x39 (AK47 round) are the most common long gun calibers worldwide. If your MC has to mow through battalions of the critters, you have to consider ammo availability.

And while I'm here, my pet peeve gun thing in stories is when someone can pick up a gun for the first time and couldn't hit the ground if they aimed for it, or when they could hit a crow's eye at 800 yards with a pistol. Both grate the same nerve.

The M14 didn't go into service until the mid fifties, after Korea. The M1 Garand was the primary shoulder arm in Korea. If you're stuck on the M14, you'll have to make him a Vietnam-era vet.

Have fun,
Stan

Stanmiller
11-10-2010, 05:24 PM
The only advantage of the Desert Eagle (over other autos) is that when you walk up behind someone and press it against their back in a menacing way you can actually still fire the weapon if you need to. Otherwise, it's pretty, but that's about it.

Ahhh...Drachen, sorry, but that's a good way to get the pistol taken away and used against you. A Wing Chun dude I know claimed he could do it, so we tried it with a toy gun. He could turn his torso out of the line of fire before I could pull the trigger, block my attempt to bring the muzzle to bear with his elbow while he completed the turn, then twist the pistol out of my hand. Even when I was expecting him to do it, I was still too late on the trigger. :Shrug:

Figuring it was his martial arts training that gave him the edge, we switched roles. I could do it too, three times out of four. And I'm an old fat guy with no martial arts skills whatsoever.

The main advantage of a handgun is range, compared to hands or edged weapons.

Stan

Drachen Jager
11-10-2010, 08:17 PM
Ahhh...Drachen, sorry, but that's a good way to get the pistol taken away and used against you. A Wing Chun dude I know claimed he could do it, so we tried it with a toy gun. He could turn his torso out of the line of fire before I could pull the trigger, block my attempt to bring the muzzle to bear with his elbow while he completed the turn, then twist the pistol out of my hand. Even when I was expecting him to do it, I was still too late on the trigger. :Shrug:

Figuring it was his martial arts training that gave him the edge, we switched roles. I could do it too, three times out of four. And I'm an old fat guy with no martial arts skills whatsoever.

The main advantage of a handgun is range, compared to hands or edged weapons.

Stan

I never said it was a good idea. Only that the pistol would fire.

Of course it's stupid to stand within reach of your target in that sort of situation.

Stanmiller
11-10-2010, 08:29 PM
I never said it was a good idea. Only that the pistol would fire.

Of course it's stupid to stand within reach of your target in that sort of situation.

Good point. I stand corrected.

Josef VonQuestenberg
11-11-2010, 04:52 AM
The M14 didn't go into service until the mid fifties, after Korea. The M1 Garand was the primary shoulder arm in Korea. If you're stuck on the M14, you'll have to make him a Vietnam-era vet.

Have fun,
Stan

I just have to 'correct' you on the ammo avalibility.

Look, we know there's 7.62x39, .308, .223, whatever. But, what you didn't mention was what cheap/corrosive ammunition can do to a gun, and how common exactly that garbage is.

I have my own Romanian WASR, so naturally, I feed plenty of rounds through it, but I've come to two conclusions: One, being, if you are going to feed it, you had better buy good brass (for reloading) and non-corrosive gunpowder. There are several generic brands that sell corrosive crap, and it requires constant cleaning of the barrel to keep it from rusting out (An AK-47 may not need to be worrysome about rust, but come on, pretty ugly beats plain ugly.). Wolf Ammunition is garbage as well, it's torture to attempt to reload the crap steel casings, and they feed about as good as a baby with Colic. I've had jams about every 23 rounds in Best Case scenarios.

As for good ammunition to use, you'd go well and dandy with Winchester or Remington 7.62x39 ammunition; same goes for any other caliber. You can't just say "Johnny took a few of the 7.62 rounds from the box and loaded them into his magazine." You've got to be specific, if he's using 762 it could be some Soviet surplus crap that's got the preformance of a pig in heat. Specific things are so much better. "Johnny plucked a few 7.62 rounds from the freshly opened Winchester box and he loaded them into his magazine." Better. Now we know we are using good ammunition, not some foreign crap.

Sometimes nitpicking can make things better.

BRDurkin
11-11-2010, 05:02 AM
Specific things are so much better. "Johnny plucked a few 7.62 rounds from the freshly opened Winchester box and he loaded them into his magazine." Better. Now we know we are using good ammunition, not some foreign crap.

Sometimes nitpicking can make things better.

But something else to keep in mind here is whether or not ammunition brand really matters to the character at the moment the ammo itself is mentioned. If he's being shot at, he's not going to care what brand it is. Whether it's Wolf or Remington hardly matters at that point. All that matters is will it shoot? Can he get rounds down range to save his own life or the lives of whoever he's defending? If it doesn't matter to the character at that point, it probably doesn't matter to the reader, either.

My point in all this is, you CAN get too detailed, especially with something like firearms. Case in point, when I started writing my military science fiction novel, I subconsciously felt I had to correct every single mistake ever made regarding firearms in books and movies. I thought it would be cool to impart every bit of knowledge I had regarding firearms to the reader. The problem was, readers didn't need to know about 75% of that stuff. It wasn't relevant to the plot or the action at the time.

Obviously, if your character is shopping for ammo and the quality of certain brands matters to the plot, you can go into it. But in my experience, in most situations where ammo is specifically mentioned in a book, it's being slammed home into the gun's chamber. At that point, it's down to the business of killing - and brand name doesn't matter.

Josef VonQuestenberg
11-11-2010, 05:21 AM
But something else to keep in mind here is whether or not ammunition brand really matters to the character at the moment the ammo itself is mentioned. If he's being shot at, he's not going to care what brand it is. Whether it's Wolf or Remington hardly matters at that point. All that matters is will it shoot? Can he get rounds down range to save his own life or the lives of whoever he's defending? If it doesn't matter to the character at that point, it probably doesn't matter to the reader, either.
Of course you've got a point there. I don't mean that at all times you should clarify, it's just the heat of the moment that you should. If some pricks shooting at me, all I care about is that he's dead when I hit him, and then I'd take the gun, and admire the shells on the ground later, like if I consider picking them up for a reload. Naturally, the silver metalic crap will mean 'bad' so I'd ignore it, brass is good. If the Reader is already hooked onto the story, then it really doesn't matter, it's "Oh cool details." Now once you get into explaining the mathmatics and stuff, it's like "hurry up.. I wanna read about that chick blowing the dudes brains out." And so on, so fourth.


My point in all this is, you CAN get too detailed, especially with something like firearms. Case in point, when I started writing my military science fiction novel, I subconsciously felt I had to correct every single mistake ever made regarding firearms in books and movies. I thought it would be cool to impart every bit of knowledge I had regarding firearms to the reader. The problem was, readers didn't need to know about 75% of that stuff. It wasn't relevant to the plot or the action at the time.
Well I for one believe that our existance as authors involves educating the stupid. Our readers 'should' know that Winchester Black Talon ammo can screw up the insides of a person really bad, whereas that round nosed target ammo just sinks into them a ways, sometimes overpenetrating. If we're shooting zombies, we've got to recognize that 'stopping power' is complete BS, and that it's rather hard to score a head shot. Ask anyone who loves the idea of zombies; about 75% of them need to learn a thing or two.


Obviously, if your character is shopping for ammo and the quality of certain brands matters to the plot, you can go into it. But in my experience, in most situations where ammo is specifically mentioned in a book, it's being slammed home into the gun's chamber. At that point, it's down to the business of killing - and brand name doesn't matter.
Well before you start killing people, you've got to load up your magazines/clip. If you scoop up a bunch of stuff off the floor, and you're short on time, that's a scenario that you don't mention it. I do things in a 'personal' expression when I write. If I am at home loading up the Mags for my Springfield Target, I am looking at the little round nosed cartridges I'm sliding into the mag. I'm going to peer at the back at some point and read the engraving. I'll note the irritation of doing it with just fingers. And most of all, I'd note if I'm using FMJ or what. There's a difference between Winchester FMJ's and Winchester PDx1's. I'll be choosing for efficient work in carrying out my task, and it helps to differentiate the characters between competent, and incompetent, depending on the situation. If I've got a gang banger loading up mags, chances are he won't be giving 2 damns about what he's putting in, it's a hollow point or not. NRA Ray on the other hand will be thinking "Is this a Hydrashok, or a Black Talon?" If it sits well with the audience I give the book to, then it sits well with me. If I get too detailed, I'll know when I'm trying to read it through; more often than not, I am not detailed enough. Consider it a curse of reading Tony Hillerman throughout most of my earlier childhood...

Stanmiller
11-11-2010, 05:36 AM
I just have to 'correct' you on the ammo avalibility.

Look, we know there's 7.62x39, .308, .223, whatever. But, what you didn't mention was what cheap/corrosive ammunition can do to a gun, and how common exactly that garbage is.

I have my own Romanian WASR, so naturally, I feed plenty of rounds through it, but I've come to two conclusions: One, being, if you are going to feed it, you had better buy good brass (for reloading) and non-corrosive gunpowder. There are several generic brands that sell corrosive crap, and it requires constant cleaning of the barrel to keep it from rusting out (An AK-47 may not need to be worrysome about rust, but come on, pretty ugly beats plain ugly.). Wolf Ammunition is garbage as well, it's torture to attempt to reload the crap steel casings, and they feed about as good as a baby with Colic. I've had jams about every 23 rounds in Best Case scenarios.

As for good ammunition to use, you'd go well and dandy with Winchester or Remington 7.62x39 ammunition; same goes for any other caliber. You can't just say "Johnny took a few of the 7.62 rounds from the box and loaded them into his magazine." You've got to be specific, if he's using 762 it could be some Soviet surplus crap that's got the preformance of a pig in heat. Specific things are so much better. "Johnny plucked a few 7.62 rounds from the freshly opened Winchester box and he loaded them into his magazine." Better. Now we know we are using good ammunition, not some foreign crap.

Sometimes nitpicking can make things better.

All good points, and we're fully in agreement on the quality of ammo to feed our our pet rifles. My comments to the OP were about the rarity of 6.5 Grendel compared to 5.56, 7.62x51, and 7.62x39. I didn't think to address the quality issue. Good catch.

Josef VonQuestenberg
11-11-2010, 05:46 AM
All good points, and we're fully in agreement on the quality of ammo to feed our our pet rifles. My comments to the OP were about the rarity of 6.5 Grendel compared to 5.56, 7.62x51, and 7.62x39. I didn't think to address the quality issue. Good catch.

The good reception is most appreciated. A fine majority of 7.62x39 ammo produced is garbage, been to so many gunshows the only place you can really get good 7.62x39 ammunition is from either Walmart (Who rarely gets in the cheaper Winchesters) or from Midway USA or other online sites like Able Ammo. (I Live in the same city as Midway USA's operation, so I'm blessed with quick ship.)

Ol' Fashioned Girl
11-11-2010, 11:52 PM
Just have to throw in my opinion here ('cause, well, y'all know I'm opinionated)... that steel-case ammo really IS CRAP. I had one box and all it took was one magazine full to tell me I'd never finish the box and I'd never buy it again.

Rowan
11-12-2010, 07:43 PM
How do you choose your characters' weapons? Are your choices based on your personal knowledge/experience, personal preference or what best fits the character? ETA: OR, do you rely entirely on the Firearms thread? ;)

I go with what best fits the character. Because I know I can get help / input here if my character picks a weapon I know nothing about! :D

OneWriter
11-12-2010, 07:49 PM
You're missing an option: you know nothing about weapons and you go beg your expert friends to help you out!! :D

actually, now I no longer feel I know nothing... I've got my rich characters with Sig Sauers and H&K's, and my less affluent cops with Glocks and Colts with the sear filed so they don't get cocked. That's knowing something, right? :D

BRDurkin
11-12-2010, 08:57 PM
Well, seeing as I mostly write science fiction when there are guns involved, I get the pleasure of making up weapons. I do use my basic knowledge of firearms to make sure said weapons are actually plausible though.

Were I to write a piece involving contemporary firearms, I'd probably go with what fits the character, and if it was a weapon I didn't know much about, I'd either seek knowledge here or do research via other sources.

Adam
11-12-2010, 09:04 PM
I get no further than "pistol," "shotgun," or "rifle." :tongue:

If I'm feeling particularly adventurous, I may say "revolver" or "automatic shotgun." ;)

Rowan
11-12-2010, 09:47 PM
Well, seeing as I mostly write science fiction when there are guns involved, I get the pleasure of making up weapons. I do use my basic knowledge of firearms to make sure said weapons are actually plausible though.

Were I to write a piece involving contemporary firearms, I'd probably go with what fits the character, and if it was a weapon I didn't know much about, I'd either seek knowledge here or do research via other sources.

You know, I was wondering about that! Seems like it'd be much easier if you had basic knowledge of firearms, as you've said. :)


Posted by Adam:
I get no further than "pistol," "shotgun," or "rifle." :tongue:

If I'm feeling particularly adventurous, I may say "revolver" or "automatic shotgun." ;)


I would so hate to be a character in your book if you gave me a mere "pistol". How mundane. :tongue

OneWriter
11-12-2010, 09:52 PM
Wait... but can one use "pistol" as synonym for gun or are the two very different?

Rowan
11-12-2010, 09:56 PM
Wait... but can one use "pistol" as synonym for gun or are the two very different?

I think what Adam is saying is his characters just get whatever he gives them--no details regarding how it's fired, what it looks like, etc. etc. "I picked up my pistol and shot the bad dude." ;)

One thing you learn in the Corps---never ever refer to your M16 as a "gun". :D

ETA: to answer your actual question, I think "gun" used to refer to specific types of weapons (military). In writing, I tend to refer to mine by make, ie., "..the Sig" or type, "...my revolver" and not as a "gun". I believe the term is now used to refer to most firearms--handguns, revolvers, shotguns, etc. I can't see ever referring to a rifle as a mere 'gun' though. :)
Remember, a "pistol" is a weapon designed to shoot with one hand (with other hand usually providing support), ie., a handgun.

Anyone else?

Drachen Jager
11-12-2010, 09:58 PM
Wait... but can one use "pistol" as synonym for gun or are the two very different?

Ex Army will normally refer to a pistol as a pistol, weapon or firearm. To a soldier a gun is larger, mounted on a trailer or chassis. An MBT's main armament is a gun, or an artillery piece is a gun (except for mortars of course).

Remember Full Metal Jacket? Marching around in their underwear, "This is my rifle. This is my gun. This is for fighting. This is for fun." (alternately shaking rifle and penis) It wasn't shown in the movie but something like that was probably done because one of the recruits called his rifle a gun.

Summonere
11-12-2010, 10:05 PM
Wait... but can one use "pistol" as synonym for gun or are the two very different?

Many won't care one way or the other (about the above), but the usual usage goes like this:

pistol = semi-automatic handgun (and only that), magazine fed
revolver = handgun with a rotating cylinder that holds the ammunition
submachine gun (SMG) = fully automatic firearm that fires pistol rounds
machine gun = fully automatic firearm that fires rifle rounds

There are, of course, exceptions (i.e. various full-auto pistols, semi-auto revolvers, rifles with revolving cylinders, and oddball shotguns, too)...

Rowan
11-12-2010, 10:05 PM
Ex Army will normally refer to a pistol as a pistol, weapon or firearm. To a soldier a gun is larger, mounted on a trailer or chassis. An MBT's main armament is a gun, or an artillery piece is a gun (except for mortars of course).

Remember Full Metal Jacket? Marching around in their underwear, "This is my rifle. This is my gun. This is for fighting. This is for fun." (alternately shaking rifle and penis) It wasn't shown in the movie but something like that was probably done because one of the recruits called his rifle a gun.

Excellent movie...and of note, about US Marines. Never refer to the M16 as a "Gun". :)

Rowan
11-12-2010, 10:09 PM
Many won't care one way or the other (about the above), but the usual usage goes like this:

pistol = semi-automatic handgun (and only that), magazine fed
revolver = handgun with a rotating cylinder that holds the ammunition
submachine gun (SMG) = fully automatic firearm that fires pistol rounds
machine gun = fully automatic firearm that fires rifle rounds

There are, of course, exceptions (i.e. various full-auto pistols, semi-auto revolvers, rifles with revolving cylinders, and oddball shotguns, too)...

Good post. And what's interesting, it seems much clearer when dealing with shotguns or rifles. Most authors will say, "the rifle" or list it by make/model, etc. And when it comes to shotguns--same thing. I'm going to start watching out for this because I tend to always say "Sig" or "Browning", etc. I know of at least three authors (one being Laurell K. Hamilton) who do the same.

Stanmiller
11-12-2010, 10:16 PM
You're missing an option: you know nothing about weapons and you go beg your expert friends to help you out!! :D

actually, now I no longer feel I know nothing... I've got my rich characters with Sig Sauers and H&K's, and my less affluent cops with Glocks and Colts with the sear filed so they don't get cocked. That's knowing something, right? :D

Re the Colts with filed-down sears. These days, a revolver carried as a BUG (backup gun) will most likely be one of the J-frame DAO Smiths.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_757768_-1_757767_757751_image

The DAO models are the ones without visible hammers.

And just for those writers that can't help putting safeties on their revolvers, S&W reintroduced the Model 40, with a grip safety.


Stan

Stanmiller
11-12-2010, 10:24 PM
Many won't care one way or the other (about the above), but the usual usage goes like this:

pistol = semi-automatic handgun (and only that), magazine fed
revolver = handgun with a rotating cylinder that holds the ammunition
submachine gun (SMG) = fully automatic firearm that fires pistol rounds
machine gun = fully automatic firearm that fires rifle rounds

There are, of course, exceptions (i.e. various full-auto pistols, semi-auto revolvers, rifles with revolving cylinders, and oddball shotguns, too)...

Good list, S.

There's one more, the machine pistol = full-auto pistol such as the Glock 18 and others.

Josef VonQuestenberg
11-12-2010, 11:27 PM
How do you choose your characters' weapons? Are your choices based on your personal knowledge/experience, personal preference or what best fits the character? ETA: OR, do you rely entirely on the Firearms thread? ;)

I go with what best fits the character. Because I know I can get help / input here if my character picks a weapon I know nothing about! :D

I go with what's realistic. Everyone has a different weapon, and some are more common than others. People aren't going to be hiking out with a big assed .44 magnum or Desert Eagle, they're going to be taking a CC weapon like a Glock 19, M&P9c, or maybe even a Colt Defender or SP 101. I never need help; I do my research prior to selection, and with 21 guns of my own, use pop-ownership knowledge to base my choices. (I only own one [An AK-47], the rest are my dads but going to me whenever.) I base my choices by what many people own and have access to. Most of them are conservative.



You're missing an option: you know nothing about weapons and you go beg your expert friends to help you out!! :D

actually, now I no longer feel I know nothing... I've got my rich characters with Sig Sauers and H&K's, and my less affluent cops with Glocks and Colts with the sear filed so they don't get cocked. That's knowing something, right? :D

Hehe, what I always say is: Glock what? Colt What? Is it a springfield? Is it a kimber... Lol. And the price discrimination is always a good hint at realism. You won't see many gang bangers with Sigs unless they are stolen.





Well, seeing as I mostly write science fiction when there are guns involved, I get the pleasure of making up weapons. I do use my basic knowledge of firearms to make sure said weapons are actually plausible though.

Were I to write a piece involving contemporary firearms, I'd probably go with what fits the character, and if it was a weapon I didn't know much about, I'd either seek knowledge here or do research via other sources.

I never make up guns. I've always got to have something to describe, be it the blocky feel of a Glock 17, or the smooth and cold steel of a Smith & Wesson M28. I base it off of sturdy assumptions and personal contact advantage.

Summonere
11-13-2010, 01:25 AM
There's one more, the machine pistol = full-auto pistol such as the Glock 18 and others.

Say, you're right. That's what I like to keep handy, just in case any Lycans or vampires show up. :)

Tiger
11-13-2010, 01:28 AM
Good list, S.

There's one more, the machine pistol = full-auto pistol such as the Glock 18 and others.

I thought all handguns were pistols--even back to flintlock days.

Saskatoonistan
11-13-2010, 01:32 AM
Do we want to go into shoulder fired anti-tank weapons and wire guided missiles?

Oh! We could talk ammunition - there's everything from tracer to target to armored piercing to depleted uranium...

Rowan
11-13-2010, 02:01 AM
I go with what's realistic. Everyone has a different weapon, and some are more common than others. People aren't going to be hiking out with a big assed .44 magnum or Desert Eagle, they're going to be taking a CC weapon like a Glock 19, M&P9c, or maybe even a Colt Defender or SP 101. I never need help; I do my research prior to selection, and with 21 guns of my own, use pop-ownership knowledge to base my choices. (I only own one [An AK-47], the rest are my dads but going to me whenever.) I base my choices by what many people own and have access to. Most of them are conservative.




What's realistic and what fits the character aren't necessarily at odds. ;)

For example, Laurell K. Hamilton's character (vampire hunter and necromancer Anita Blake) carries a Browning Hi-Power and/or a Firestar--along with knives and other weapons (tools of her trade). Hamilton explains in detail the reasoning behind Blake's choice of weapons... it's realistic and fits the character perfectly.

ETA: I also do my own research prior to selection, but I don't know everything. And sometimes it helps to get input from people who've 'been-there-done-that'. I personally own 7 handguns and a shotgun while my father has an arsenal of weapons (close to 60 handguns, 20 or so rifles, a few shotguns and a few collectible rifles as well). But if I can't personally shoot it, it's nice--not to mention helpful--to chat with someone here who has. :)

Stanmiller
11-13-2010, 02:12 AM
I thought all handguns were pistols--even back to flintlock days.

That's true, until revolvers came along. Then a distinction was made between revolvers (with multiple chambers) and pistols (with a single chamber). Since semi-autos have one chamber, they inherited the term pistol.

hammerklavier
11-13-2010, 02:34 AM
It is not the sear that gets filed down on revolvers, it it the hammer spur. The sear is an internal part of the trigger.

Stanmiller
11-13-2010, 03:01 AM
It is not the sear that gets filed down on revolvers, it it the hammer spur. The sear is an internal part of the trigger.

To convert a revolver to fire double-action only, the full cock notch is removed, along with the hammer spur. This prevents thumb-cocking the weapon in all circumstances. Just bobbing the hammer is only half the job.

Tiger
11-13-2010, 03:13 AM
That's true, until revolvers came along. Then a distinction was made between revolvers (with multiple chambers) and pistols (with a single chamber). Since semi-autos have one chamber, they inherited the term pistol.

I see... Has something to do with where the round is chambered.

Tiger
11-13-2010, 03:14 AM
I'll have to add that filling the sear on an auto the wrong way may result in a full-auto handgun.

BRDurkin
11-13-2010, 04:41 AM
I never make up guns. I've always got to have something to describe, be it the blocky feel of a Glock 17, or the smooth and cold steel of a Smith & Wesson M28. I base it off of sturdy assumptions and personal contact advantage.

All well and good for you. But in a post apocalyptic setting where Earth has had to essentially rebuild its technology base, it's a pretty safe bet that Glock didn't come through intact as a business, especially if a nuke got dropped on Austria. New brands would have arisen, new designs. Plus, I feel if you can create something totally new and yet make it still be plausible, that's always a plus for a science fiction book. Obviously, were I writing a contemporary thriller, I'd use a weapon that already existed.

Also, in regards to the generic terms used to refer to types of firearms, the Navy often refers to both rifles and shotguns as "long arms" as opposed to pistols. Don't know if any of the other services use that term or not.

Stanmiller
11-13-2010, 05:33 PM
Guys, there's a useful thread down there in the Mystery / Suspense / Thriller forum titled "What kind of gun do your characters carry?"
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181114

Rowan
11-13-2010, 06:55 PM
Guys, there's a useful thread down there in the Mystery / Suspense / Thriller forum titled "What kind of gun do your characters carry?"
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181114

Excellent--thanks! I write UF so I never think to check that forum! :)

Drachen Jager
11-13-2010, 09:16 PM
Also, in regards to the generic terms used to refer to types of firearms, the Navy often refers to both rifles and shotguns as "long arms" as opposed to pistols. Don't know if any of the other services use that term or not.

Not really. In the Army pistols are an afterthought and SMGs etc. are for special forces, 95% of all personal weapons are "long arms" so it wouldn't make much sense to have a category for them. Instead pistols are referred to as sidearms.

In the Air Force they don't know which end of a rifle goes >Bang< I think they refer to all personal firearms as "thunder sticks".

Rowan
11-13-2010, 10:22 PM
Not really. In the Army pistols are an afterthought and SMGs etc. are for special forces, 95% of all personal weapons are "long arms" so it wouldn't make much sense to have a category for them. Instead pistols are referred to as sidearms*.

In the Air Force they don't know which end of a rifle goes >Bang< I think they refer to all personal firearms as "thunder sticks".

* Fairly common in Corps too.

Bolding is mine, because: :ROFL:

BRDurkin
11-13-2010, 10:32 PM
Not really. In the Army pistols are an afterthought and SMGs etc. are for special forces, 95% of all personal weapons are "long arms" so it wouldn't make much sense to have a category for them. Instead pistols are referred to as sidearms.


I can see how that makes sense. I think "long arms" is a bit more specific in the Navy, simply because we have a limited number of them to use. No sailor will ever see an SMG unless a SEAL is carrying one, and machine guns are usually mounted, so we don't carry those either. Primary weapons for most Navy sentries are pistols. So if you're told to grab a "long arm," it means stuff just hit the fan and it's time to gear up for a real fight.

Ol' Fashioned Girl
11-13-2010, 11:34 PM
Look up 'short arm inspection', ladies and gentlemen, and you'll understand why all personal weapons are 'long arms'.

And since I'm sure there are likely members of all branches of the military - both foreign and domestic - with access to this thread, let's not be insulting any of 'em, eh? Thank you.

Drachen Jager
11-14-2010, 12:30 AM
While we're on the topic:

Carbine: Essentially a SMG/rifle hybrid. Shorter than most rifles but longer than an SMG, can be chambered for SMG/pistol or rifle ammo.

Scout: A niche sniper rifle where the eye relief is much longer than a regular rifle. The scope is mounted mid-way up the rifle so your face is not right in the scope which means you have some peripheral vision while scoping. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_Scout

PDW (personal defence weapon): This is a new category. The intent is to create a weapon that is short enough to be wielded inside a vehicle or carried conveniently with something as close to assault rifle capabilities as possible. Examples are FN P90 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_P90) and H&K MP7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_MP7)

Rowan
11-14-2010, 12:44 AM
Look up 'short arm inspection', ladies and gentlemen, and you'll understand why all personal weapons are 'long arms'.

And since I'm sure there are likely members of all branches of the military - both foreign and domestic - with access to this thread, let's not be insulting any of 'em, eh? Thank you.

My apologies. It was the term "thunder stick" that set me off laughing--the images that conjures up! :) No disrespect intended. ;)

Drachen Jager
11-14-2010, 01:16 AM
My apologies. It was the term "thunder stick" that set me off laughing--the images that conjures up! :) No disrespect intended. ;)

I think she was talking to me. If she'd been in the armed forces she'd understand that a lot of good natured joking goes on between branches and generally offence isn't taken.

Like the one about the Army private and the Navy sergeant in the bathroom. Pvt. finishes up, flushes and walks away. Sgt. says "Son, in the Navy we wash our hands afterwards." Pvt. responds "Sergeant, in the Army they teach us not to piss on our hands."

Stanmiller
11-14-2010, 03:22 AM
I think she was talking to me. If she'd been in the armed forces she'd understand that a lot of good natured joking goes on between branches and generally offence isn't taken.

Like the one about the Army private and the Navy sergeant in the bathroom. Pvt. finishes up, flushes and walks away. Sgt. says "Son, in the Navy we wash our hands afterwards." Pvt. responds "Sergeant, in the Army they teach us not to piss on our hands."

Ahhh, That'd be a Marine sergeant. The Navy has petty officers. But it's a pretty good joke anyway.

Drachen Jager
11-14-2010, 03:27 AM
Yeah I wasn't sure if they were POs in the states too. Didn't want to confuse anyone.

Ol' Fashioned Girl
11-14-2010, 03:53 AM
I think she was talking to me. If she'd been in the armed forces she'd understand that a lot of good natured joking goes on between branches and generally offence isn't taken.

Nope, I haven't served... but I come from a long, long, very long line of men who did. And I DO understand there's a lot of good natured joking that goes on between branches; however, the word 'generally' in close proximity to 'offense isn't taken' is the key. We respect 'em all... even the ones who 'generally' take offense.

Then you have the joking that isn't so 'good natured'... but that's another tale.

Tiger
11-14-2010, 04:22 AM
I can see how that makes sense. I think "long arms" is a bit more specific in the Navy, simply because we have a limited number of them to use. No sailor will ever see an SMG unless a SEAL is carrying one, and machine guns are usually mounted, so we don't carry those either. Primary weapons for most Navy sentries are pistols. So if you're told to grab a "long arm," it means stuff just hit the fan and it's time to gear up for a real fight.

Just adding here that the "P" in MP-5 is for "pistol."

Josef VonQuestenberg
11-14-2010, 08:18 AM
Would you consider an AK-47 a Rifle or a Carbine?

Drachen Jager
11-14-2010, 10:07 AM
Would you consider an AK-47 a Rifle or a Carbine?

Neither, it's an assault rifle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbine

BRDurkin
11-14-2010, 10:36 AM
Man, you gotta stop putting in links. I end up spending an hour checking out all the different guns. One link leads to another and all that... (I'm joking of course! ;) )

Stanmiller
11-15-2010, 12:21 AM
Neither, it's an assault rifle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbine

Ditto.

Full-size rifles such as the M14, shooting full power rounds (7.62 NATO) are known as battle rifles, to differentiate them from assault rifles, in smaller, less powerful calibers (5.56 NATO for M16/M4, 7.62x39 for AK47 and variants, 5.45x39 for AK74 and variants).

The advantage of assault rifles is lighter weight of weapon and ammo, allowing more ammo to be carried. Per round, 5.56 NATO ammo is about half the weight of 7.62 NATO. The disadvantage is less range and less downrange energy.

Stan

Hip-Hop-a-potamus
11-15-2010, 12:53 AM
For someone who knows diddly about firearms, I heartily thank you all for this thread!

HH

Josef VonQuestenberg
11-15-2010, 01:49 AM
Here's a good question; why don't any movies or stories use the civilian models of the AR-15 or even AK-47? The only one I can think of where a civilian has a gun is Planet Terror, and we all know how that movie turned out... More people own AR-15 Carbines than you would think, as well.

Drachen Jager
11-15-2010, 02:11 AM
Here's a good question; why don't any movies or stories use the civilian models of the AR-15 or even AK-47? The only one I can think of where a civilian has a gun is Planet Terror, and we all know how that movie turned out... More people own AR-15 Carbines than you would think, as well.

True, they are pretty common. I suspect it's the filmmaker's choice. They don't want to confuse the audience by giving a military-looking weapon to a civilian. For more info on firearms in film go to http://www.imfdb.org/

Josef VonQuestenberg
11-15-2010, 02:30 AM
True, they are pretty common. I suspect it's the filmmaker's choice. They don't want to confuse the audience by giving a military-looking weapon to a civilian. For more info on firearms in film go to http://www.imfdb.org/

That's where I found out the AR-15 was so rare, lol. And yes, that is a wonderful site.

hammerklavier
11-16-2010, 06:49 AM
Any rifle of a barrel shorter than 16 inches can legitimately be called a carbine. Generally, it would be a short lightweight military weapon like the .30 Carbine of WWII or the M4 of modern day. But there were many lever action carbines in the old west too.

Drachen Jager
11-16-2010, 07:23 AM
Carbines go back to the black powder days piano.

Josef VonQuestenberg
11-16-2010, 07:55 AM
I can't stand muzzleloaders, or anything that doesn't use a brass/steel/metallic cartridge... Haha.

Stanmiller
11-16-2010, 04:01 PM
I can't stand muzzleloaders, or anything that doesn't use a brass/steel/metallic cartridge... Haha.

Then you're missing a lot of fun. Muzzleloaders are a blast (literally) to shoot. These days, almost any rifle will shoot close to one MOA with its favorite load. It's a real challenge getting a muzzleloader with iron sights to do that.

Stan

Rowan
11-18-2010, 04:24 PM
We've already discussed movies and books that "get it wrong". What movies (or TV shows) get it right when it comes to firearms? Or are there any books you can think of that hit the mark?

Stanmiller
11-18-2010, 05:12 PM
We've already discussed movies and books that "get it wrong". What movies get it right when it comes to firearms? Or are there any books you can think of that hit the mark?

NCIS pretty much gets it right EXCEPT for that thousand-meter head shot Gibbs took in bright sun into a darkened room in last season's opener. But their handgun handling is good. I seldom watch movies so I'll leave that to others.

Lee Child screwed up a few times in the early books (after all, he's a Brit and didn't know anything about guns when he started) but has been getting it right lately.

Stephen Hunter is really good, if a bit contrived in some places. In POINT OF IMPACT, the whole plot hangs on Swagger filing down a firing pin so a rifle won't fire. The contrived part is that Hunter had him do it early in the book, way before Swagger should have suspected that the rifle would get him in trouble.

Elmore Leonard is pretty good, especially with Wild West shootouts. Donald Hamilton was dead on (Matt Helm was wwaaaayy better than James Bond). John D McDonald's Travis McGee didn't rely on guns much, but when he did, he did it right.

Stan

Drachen Jager
11-18-2010, 09:21 PM
Heat and Ronin are both very well handled firearms-wise. As far as military, Saving Pvt. Ryan was good except for the through-the-scope sniper shot. Platoon and Full Metal Jacket are good.

I've only ever seen one movie that handled explosions realistically, I can't remember the name of it but it was mostly not worth watching, starring Pat Morita (Mr. Miyagi) and Jay Leno.

Drachen Jager
11-18-2010, 09:25 PM
Back to the terminology, I forgot to mention one earlier.

Bullpup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullpup): A firearm where the chamber is behind the trigger. Like the Steyr AUG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_Aug) or the FN P90 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_P90).

The main advantage is a shorter overall package, good for tight quarters. The downsides are problems with trigger-pull on most models (lowering accuracy) and the lack of a full stock for use as a club in hand to hand combat (not a problem for most though)

Rowan
11-19-2010, 02:17 AM
Someone at work mentioned "The Way of the Gun":
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0202677/

I haven't seen it in years so I can't speak for the accuracy. Think I'll watch it again though.

Drachen Jager
11-19-2010, 02:22 AM
Yep, that's a good one too Rowan. Although the two lead characters seem awfully coordinated in small team tactics for a couple of nobodies.

Josef VonQuestenberg
11-19-2010, 02:54 AM
Anyone know anything about Hi-Point firearms?

Drachen Jager
11-19-2010, 03:10 AM
They're cheap. Too cheap to be any good IMO.

Ol' Fashioned Girl
11-19-2010, 03:12 AM
They are that. I'd never heard of them but googled them and poked around in their website. They're on the Chicago list of 'unsafe' guns - but we all know how Chicago feels about guns.

The most worrisome thing I noted... they don't say where they're made on their site - or I couldn't find it.

Stanmiller
11-19-2010, 03:58 AM
Anyone know anything about Hi-Point firearms?

I've handled (not fired) a 9mm model. It's a big lump of a thing with a massive slide due to the blowback design (blowbacks depend on slide inertia to hold the action closed until the bullet clears the muzzle and chamber pressures drop to a safe level.)

Everything about the pistol is oversize (and probably over-engineered). They look like they would last forever, or at least until the recoil spring gave out. The slide is pinned to the frame and can't be removed, according to Hi-Point. That means it would have to go to a gunsmith to replace the spring.

At that point, I laid it back on the counter and asked to see the Browning Hi-Power Practical that was calling my name. That one went home with me.

Stan

Tiger
11-19-2010, 05:16 AM
Try a P7 M10 sometime... Thing's a brick for pretty much the same reason.

Tiger
11-19-2010, 06:32 AM
Re: Gun errors. How about when someone pulls a bullet out of a wall, telephone pole--what have you--looks at it and then proclaims: "Hmm... 9mm," or, "hmm... .38." Is it really possible to tell these apart by just looking?

Stanmiller
11-19-2010, 07:08 AM
Re: Gun errors. How about when someone pulls a bullet out of a wall, telephone pole--what have you--looks at it and then proclaims: "Hmm... 9mm," or, "hmm... .38." Is it really possible to tell these apart by just looking?

.380, .38SPL, 9mm, 375 Mag, and .357 SIG are ALL .355 to .357 inch in diameter. So it's very difficult to tell between those. They have to be measured with a dial caliper reading to one thousandth of an inch. The difference between any of those and .40, .44, and .45 calibers is obvious and can generally be seen without measuring tools (though the diff between .44 and .45 is a couple hundredths and can be tough to see if you don't have a reference bullet).

Stan

Drachen Jager
11-19-2010, 08:46 AM
Speaking of errors, how about sweeping an auto from side to side and killing everyone in a ten metre radius?

Tiger
11-19-2010, 10:05 PM
.380, .38SPL, 9mm, 375 Mag, and .357 SIG are ALL .355 to .357 inch in diameter. So it's very difficult to tell between those. They have to be measured with a dial caliper reading to one thousandth of an inch. The difference between any of those and .40, .44, and .45 calibers is obvious and can generally be seen without measuring tools (though the diff between .44 and .45 is a couple hundredths and can be tough to see if you don't have a reference bullet).

Stan

That's what I mean. There is bound to be some deforming involved if the bullet strikes a solid object so the diameter may not be accurately measured. The bullet weights can be the same as well. Does this count as a movie/tv error?

Drachen Jager
11-19-2010, 10:15 PM
Yep, it does Tiger, I especially hate it when on forensics shows they show the bullet in a little clear plastic baggie and it's pristine, beautiful shiny copper jacket 100% unblemished. Simply firing the bullet puts marks on the sides, no matter what it hits.

My question though is why do bad guys on these shows never use Glazer or similar frangible ammunition, good luck getting a match to a specific handgun on those hundreds of fragments forensics guys!

Stanmiller
11-20-2010, 06:49 AM
Yep, it does Tiger, I especially hate it when on forensics shows they show the bullet in a little clear plastic baggie and it's pristine, beautiful shiny copper jacket 100% unblemished. Simply firing the bullet puts marks on the sides, no matter what it hits.

My question though is why do bad guys on these shows never use Glazer or similar frangible ammunition, good luck getting a match to a specific handgun on those hundreds of fragments forensics guys!

Then they wouldn't have a device to hang the plot on. One non-frangible that comes apart is the Cor-Bon Powerball. I have yet to recover one intact from the wet phone books I use for testing. I've pulled Federal Hydrashoks out that looked they'd never been fired except for the rifling marks.
Stan

Noah Body
11-23-2010, 01:47 AM
Here's a Q 4 U fine folks:

Anyone have any practical experience with the HK Mk 23? Any insights into the weapon, as I've never fired one? It's mostly an SF weapon that was commissioned by SOCOM in the 1990s, but I'm pretty sure it didn't enter into service until after I left. I have some inquiries out to folks in the service, but I figure one or two of you probably know your way around the weapon.

Thanks!

Stanmiller
11-23-2010, 02:47 AM
Noah,

I've handled its little brother, the USP Tactical. They look similar, but the MK23 is a different (larger) frame, with a decocker and a safety. The piece can be carried cocked with a round in the chamber like a 1911 or Hi-Power. The USP Tactical can't, as the decocker and safety are integral.

I've heard about a German Special Forces version of the USP Tactical with a slide lock that prevents the slide from cycling when fired with suppressed subsonic rounds. I may be wrong but I don't think the MK23 has that feature.

I'm saving boxtops to get a USP Expert, a longslide variant of the Tactical without the threaded barrel.

Stan

Tiger
11-23-2010, 03:18 AM
Noah,

I've handled its little brother, the USP Tactical. They look similar, but the MK23 is a different (larger) frame, with a decocker and a safety. The piece can be carried cocked with a round in the chamber like a 1911 or Hi-Power. The USP Tactical can't, as the decocker and safety are integral.

I've heard about a German Special Forces version of the USP Tactical with a slide lock that prevents the slide from cycling when fired with suppressed subsonic rounds. I may be wrong but I don't think the MK23 has that feature.

I'm saving boxtops to get a USP Expert, a longslide variant of the Tactical without the threaded barrel.

Stan

The USP Tactical is a variant of the plane jane USP .45. Added features are an extra half-inch or so of barrel with a rubber O-ring for greater stability. The barrel is also threaded for a supressor--but in the opposite direction of the MK23's. The USP Tactical has higher (for visibility over a suppressor), target-type sights that are adjustable for w&e. The thing has about a 2lb SA trigger pull and an adjustable trigger stop.

The safety and decocker are integral, but that doesn't mean the weapon can't be carried cocked and locked--as it is possible to release the safety without decocking. Decocking simply requires an extra push down past the fire position.

The light trigger pull, the really nice sights, and the rubber O-ring, make tiny groups possible with factory ammo. I wouldn't carry a weapon, personally, but if I did, this would not be my first choice because of the very light SA trigger.

Stanmiller
11-23-2010, 05:03 AM
Decocking simply requires an extra push down past the fire position.

I missed that. I'm not real wild about decockers so I didn't play with it. Good catch.

Stan

Noah Body
11-23-2010, 05:17 PM
Thanks for the info. I heard back from a bubba who was with 5th SFG and ran an ODA when the first block of the weapons were released. His response: "If we're going to use weapons with decocking levers, they should just have given us Sigs, like the guys in protection use." :D

Stanmiller
11-23-2010, 07:53 PM
Thanks for the info. I heard back from a bubba who was with 5th SFG and ran an ODA when the first block of the weapons were released. His response: "If we're going to use weapons with decocking levers, they should just have given us Sigs, like the guys in protection use." :D

I'll bet most would rather have 1911s, like Marine Force Recon or MARSOC. Yeah!

Noah Body
11-23-2010, 08:48 PM
Probably would! But with procurement being what it is these days, and with USSOCOM holding onto the purse strings, they're lucky to get what they have! The USMC Force Recon elements aren't overseen directly by SOCOM, though they are obviously SOC and could be "seconded" if required.

Tiger
11-25-2010, 05:52 AM
Thanks for the info. I heard back from a bubba who was with 5th SFG and ran an ODA when the first block of the weapons were released. His response: "If we're going to use weapons with decocking levers, they should just have given us Sigs, like the guys in protection use." :D

Is the consensus here that the MK23 isn't a good choice? It seemed very well put together to me.

Drachen Jager
11-25-2010, 08:26 AM
In my experience military types like to stay with the familiar. Which often means choosing an inferior weapon. Ask any old soldier if 5.56 or 7.62 is better for an assault rifle. Most will pick the 7.62 even though they haven't been in service in most western countries since the 70's to 80's.

Stanmiller
11-25-2010, 08:44 AM
Is the consensus here that the MK23 isn't a good choice? It seemed very well put together to me.

It's a fine pistol, with 4 MOA accuracy, excellent for a handgun. But, it's big and heavy. And clunky. Did I mention heavy? Two and a half pounds, which is about what a Colt Anaconda .44 Mag revolver weighs. Add the suppressor and the oversize laser module and it goes over four pounds.

It's not H&K's fault. They designed and built the thing to conform to SOCOM specs.

Stan

Rowan
11-25-2010, 05:30 PM
HAPPY HOLIDAYS, Firearms People! :D

Saskatoonistan
11-27-2010, 06:15 AM
FN FAL - awesome semi-automatic rifle. Easy to sight, reasonable recoil for 7.62 MM and thoroughly durable. :)

BRDurkin
11-28-2010, 07:30 AM
In my experience military types like to stay with the familiar. Which often means choosing an inferior weapon. Ask any old soldier if 5.56 or 7.62 is better for an assault rifle. Most will pick the 7.62 even though they haven't been in service in most western countries since the 70's to 80's.

There have been murmurings for some time that some of the armed forces, particularly the Marines, are looking at reintroducing a 7.62mm assault rifle for standard issue. For awhile, they were seriously looking at some of FN's rifles. I haven't heard anything about it for awhile though, so it may have just been rumor.

My brother mentioned that he used 7.62mm rifles while in Afghanistan with the Marines, although they were for more of a medium sniper usage rather than main assault rifle.

Stanmiller
11-28-2010, 04:51 PM
There have been murmurings for some time that some of the armed forces, particularly the Marines, are looking at reintroducing a 7.62mm assault rifle for standard issue. For awhile, they were seriously looking at some of FN's rifles. I haven't heard anything about it for awhile though, so it may have just been rumor.

My brother mentioned that he used 7.62mm rifles while in Afghanistan with the Marines, although they were for more of a medium sniper usage rather than main assault rifle.

The M21 (sniper version of the old M14) is still in use by both Navy (SEALs) and Marines. It's being replaced (in Army usage anyway) by the M110, a 7.62 semi-auto sniper rifle based on the Stoner SR25.

The FN SCAR is an SOF-specific modular design full-auto assault rifle that can be fitted with either 5.65 or 7.62 uppers. I think the 5.65 version has been dropped. It's operational with some Army SOF units. Dunno about the USMC.

Stan

Nivarion
11-28-2010, 11:00 PM
There have been murmurings for some time that some of the armed forces, particularly the Marines, are looking at reintroducing a 7.62mm assault rifle for standard issue. For awhile, they were seriously looking at some of FN's rifles. I haven't heard anything about it for awhile though, so it may have just been rumor.

My brother mentioned that he used 7.62mm rifles while in Afghanistan with the Marines, although they were for more of a medium sniper usage rather than main assault rifle.

The m14 is still used in some branches as a DMR.

Eh, designated marksman's rifle. just in case an all.

Josef VonQuestenberg
11-29-2010, 07:53 AM
Does anyone know much about Springfield XDm's? Just got one today, haven't done anything with it except buy .40 S&W ammo for it.

BRDurkin
11-29-2010, 08:17 PM
I have a Springfield XD-M in .40 S&W. What would you like to know about it? Probably not much I could tell you that you don't already know (since you've got it there to look at). Felt recoil is a little heavier than a lot of .40 handguns I've shot, but it's not ridiculous or anything. Very accurate, and the high capacity is great too. Taking it apart for cleaning is extremely easy as well.

I will say it's still kind of hard to find holsters for it though. It took me about a month of searching in stores before I could find a SERPA holster for it. And I've been hunting online for a drop holster and I can find only one brand which makes one especially for the XD-M, and it's super expensive.

Stanmiller
11-29-2010, 09:04 PM
I have a Springfield XD-M in .40 S&W. What would you like to know about it? Probably not much I could tell you that you don't already know (since you've got it there to look at). Felt recoil is a little heavier than a lot of .40 handguns I've shot, but it's not ridiculous or anything. Very accurate, and the high capacity is great too. Taking it apart for cleaning is extremely easy as well.

I will say it's still kind of hard to find holsters for it though. It took me about a month of searching in stores before I could find a SERPA holster for it. And I've been hunting online for a drop holster and I can find only one brand which makes one especially for the XD-M, and it's super expensive.

BRD,
I have an older XD with a rail-mounted white light and laser. Does the SERPA holster you found work with a mounted light?
Stan

BRDurkin
11-29-2010, 09:11 PM
BRD,
I have an older XD with a rail-mounted white light and laser. Does the SERPA holster you found work with a mounted light?
Stan

The one I have does not, although in my search for a drop holster, I believe I saw some SERPA hip holsters which now accommodate lights and lasers. Don't quote me on that though. I'd check Blackhawk! products. Maybe Safariland, too (though they are spendy).

Stanmiller
11-30-2010, 04:16 AM
Thanks.

The only one I can find is for Clunks...er...Glocks, SIGs, and 1911s. Whoopee.

Guess I'll stick with the Smith 340PD pocket blaster with the CT laser.

Josef VonQuestenberg
12-01-2010, 03:26 AM
I have a Springfield XD-M in .40 S&W. What would you like to know about it? Probably not much I could tell you that you don't already know (since you've got it there to look at). Felt recoil is a little heavier than a lot of .40 handguns I've shot, but it's not ridiculous or anything. Very accurate, and the high capacity is great too. Taking it apart for cleaning is extremely easy as well.

I will say it's still kind of hard to find holsters for it though. It took me about a month of searching in stores before I could find a SERPA holster for it. And I've been hunting online for a drop holster and I can find only one brand which makes one especially for the XD-M, and it's super expensive.

Well, how would you say it is compared to other guns of the same caliber/size? I just want to make sure I won't regrett it, it was 590 new and tax.

Stanmiller
12-01-2010, 04:30 AM
If the XDM is anything like the older version, it's as stout as your average ball-peen hammer. I wanted a reliable pistol to shoot in IDPA. The XD9 has fit that role perfectly. It has shot way over 40K rounds of all kinds of 9mm ammo, mostly Winchester white box, but plenty of 9mm NATO and LE +P+.

The only part replaced has been the recoil spring (because somebody said I should, not because of any malfunctions). It stills shoots the same 4" groups at 25 yds from a rest that it shot when new. (I know that's not all that great for a pistol with target sights, but this thing has the XS Big Dot express-style combat night sights on it.)

The only gotcha I have noticed is the extractor claw has a tendency to collect gunk. It has to be brushed or scraped clean every three to four hundred rounds or the ejected cases will start hitting me in the forehead.

Shoot. Enjoy.

Stan

BRDurkin
12-01-2010, 08:30 PM
Yes, the XD-M is definitely a good gun. I've never had reason to regret mine. Mine was $579 new, no sales tax in Oregon though. Only other pistol I'm really familiar with in .40 is the Glock 27, but it's a compact, whereas my XD-M is full size.

Rowan
12-11-2010, 01:55 AM
*bump*

Stanmiller
12-11-2010, 02:21 AM
*Bang. Rattle*

Drachen Jager
12-11-2010, 02:41 AM
Does this thread need a bump? We've pretty much hashed out what we came here to do.

My gun's better than yours blah blah, enough men's room sideways glances. Most firearms will effectively kill you dead. I believe that placing too much emphasis on makes and models and minutiae like that don't make for good fiction.

Rowan
12-11-2010, 02:55 AM
Posted by Drachen Jager:
Does this thread need a bump? We've pretty much hashed out what we came here to do.

My gun's better than yours blah blah, enough men's room sideways glances. Most firearms will effectively kill you dead. I believe that placing too much emphasis on makes and models and minutiae like that don't make for good fiction.

Bolding is mine...

Well, that wasn't my intent for starting the thread. I hoped it would serve as a place to compile all firearm-related questions and discussions so people wouldn't have to continually search through countless other threads to get answers. Instead, they could search one thread. I was seeing a lot of the same questions being posted over and over again. Thought this might be a useful solution. Silly me...:Shrug:

For me personally, it also served to highlight the number of firearms experts on the board (along with the various backgrounds, etc.), and now if I need an answer to a specific firearms-related question, I know whose brain to pick.

There's a lot of bullshit on the 'net (and on many boards) when it comes to firearms. I'd hoped this thread would lead to helpful discussions regarding common mistakes made by many writers, and ultimately help writers improve their work. It's a confusing topic for many, as we've seen in this forum time and again.

Crawling back to my hole now... :D

Drachen Jager
12-11-2010, 03:38 AM
Fair enough, I was just trying to make a semi-witty observation.

Serves me right for trying I guess. :P

Stanmiller
12-11-2010, 04:24 AM
I have one. In a novel I read recently, the author gives his MC a H&K MP5SD3. He was very specific that it is the SD3 version. With the squirter comes a left-hand glove, because--according to the author--the SD3 has no foregrip, requiring the shooter to hold the thing by the suppressor, which gets hot, hence the glove.

Now I've played with the MP5, but not the suppressed version. I've seen pictures of the SD and there appears to be a small shield around the barrel/suppressor right in front of the mag. The shield looks to be large enough to use as a foregrip.

Anybody here had any direct experience with the SD?
Stan

Amended: I went back to the novel to double check. The weapon is described as the MP5SD, without a stock of any kind. That would make it an MP5SD4, not the SD3 I mentioned above.

skylark
12-13-2010, 02:42 AM
(sticks head over parapet rather nervously...)

Well, it does say "firearms thread" :)

I'm a precision target rifle shooter, and I'd have to say that a pretty much universal fiction misconception is that the sort of shooting I do is remotely like anything that's been mentioned in this thread so far.

It's very different. Just mentioning a few things which jumped out to me, in case anyone's planning on writing a target shooter.

Empty cases are not hot. .22 cases are stone cold. .762 cases are warm. Air weapons have no empty cases - everything you put in the breech goes down the barrel.

Certainly in the UK target shooters don't talk about makes in the same way. Nobody would ever, ever say "I'll go get my Walther KK200." They'd say "I'll go get my rifle." Discussions might cover favourite equipment (especially if someone was considering a big purchase) but in general it's considered a bit off to either blame your kit for your shooting or to suggest that throwing money at it is a solution. Much more likely would be conversations generic to all makes, such as foresight/rearsight sizes, breathing techniques, which wind you were shooting on...

Big fiction oopsies?

It's a precision target rifle capable of hitting a fingernail at 50 metres every time (or a football at 300). Therefore you can use it to hit a very small target. This only works if your shooter knows exactly how far away the target is and has already sighted in to allow for the wind. They're also used to being allowed to lie prone on a precisely flat firing point wearing the sort of specialist clothing which you can barely move normally in :)

Precision target shooters use amazingly complex optics to increase their accuracy. Nope - they're generally banned. Iron sights only.

On the same lines, single shot only. And target rifles are long, heavy, and awkward, and entirely impractical for anything except target shooting.

I've only ever read one book which got target shooting right. It's a Dick Francis book called Twice Shy, and Francis's son is indeed a target rifle shooter as mentioned in the dedication :)

Edit just for clarity in case people use thread for reference - I'm not saying you don't get burnt from cases from other types of shooting, just that you specifically don't from target rifles.

Drachen Jager
12-13-2010, 02:55 AM
Empty cases are not hot. .22 cases are stone cold. .762 cases are warm. Air weapons have no empty cases - everything you put in the breech goes down the barrel.



Maybe from a target rifle. I know people who have been burned by casings ejected from semi-auto, firing aimed shots every second or two. Many guys in the Army turn their collars up when tightly packed at the range because it's fairly common to get one from your neighbour down the neck of your shirt and they can leave nasty burns.

Orion11Bravo
12-13-2010, 03:27 AM
I was in the infantry...not a gun-guy per say, but I did love shooting and am very familiar with modern light infantry weapons (M4, M16, M203, M249, M240B, M9, M14, M2, M21, Marc (sp?)-19, AT4, etc.) If anyone is writing from a military perspective, but has no experience, please tap me or anyone with some combat experience. I don't know everything, but I know where to look if I don't remember. It's a real pet peeve of mine when people mess simple stuff up...

I imagine cops and lawyers feel the same way when watching law and order, CSI, etc.

Orion11Bravo
12-13-2010, 03:38 AM
Empty cases are not hot. .22 cases are stone cold. .762 cases are warm. Air weapons have no empty cases - everything you put in the breech goes down the barrel.

This certainly isn't always true. I've been burned by 5.56mm (.223) rounds. My buddy and I both opened up on a guy in Samarra, Iraq, as he fired blindly from around the corner. My friend's casings (5.56 from an M249) burned my neck and I thought I had been shot.

M240 casings, 7.62, are also hot...maybe not from a long gun...if it's bolt action then you don't have that same problem of casings pouring out of the side. Again, like I said above, I'm not a gun expert beyond my army experience, so I can't speak for absolute certainty for all guns...just the ones I know.

Stanmiller
12-13-2010, 05:32 AM
I was in the infantry...not a gun-guy per say, but I did love shooting and am very familiar with modern light infantry weapons (M4, M16, M203, M249, M240B, M9, M14, M2, M21, Marc (sp?)-19, AT4, etc.) If anyone is writing from a military perspective, but has no experience, please tap me or anyone with some combat experience. I don't know everything, but I know where to look if I don't remember. It's a real pet peeve of mine when people mess simple stuff up...

I imagine cops and lawyers feel the same way when watching law and order, CSI, etc.

I have a ton. Questions, that is.

I never got the chance to play with a couple of items on your list (the Mark 19 and the AT4 (after my time), plus I'm hoping you have experience with the M134 minigun (but forgot to list it).

Mk 19
1. Can they be fired handheld? I'm guessing not.
2. Is the round visible as it goes downrange?

AT4
1. Is the backblast as significant as I've seen in videos?
2. If fired at night, is the rocket motor exhaust visible from a nearly head-on angle?

M134
1. Does the gyroscopic effect of the revolving barrel assembly resist training and elevation while firing?
2. Given the 3,000 rounds per minute firing rate, what does it feel like? In videos, it looks smooth, with no perceptible vibration transferred to the shooter.

Know anything about the H&K MP5SD4s? (See relevant post upthread)

Thanks,
Stan

Stanmiller
12-13-2010, 06:11 AM
Hi, Skylark. Welcome to AW.
Sounds like you're a smallbore shooter. NSRA?

You're right about the misconceptions people get from the movies and TV. One of my favorites is when the sniper assembles his weapon, attaches the scope, then pulls off a thousand-yard shot. Yeah, right.

Hang around. You'll enjoy this place. There's some other shooters here. You'll meet them.

If you haven't already done so, introduce yourself in the Newbie forum, then cruise the other forums. This place is a maze, but you'll settle on your favorite spots soon enough.

Oh yeah, is the UK excuse the same as the standard US excuse? (We always blame the wind. ;))

Stan

Orion11Bravo
12-13-2010, 06:52 AM
Mk 19
Not unless you're writing science fiction (ie the Hulk). I don't know how heavy it is, but definitely "very". Similar in that sense to an M2 browning...it needs to be mounted on a tripod or humvee or the like...it fires linked 40mm grenades automatically, so the ammunition alone would be enough to make it impossible to fire from the hip.

AT4
1. Is the backblast as significant as I've seen in videos?
Yes. If fired inside, or directly in front of a tree/wall, you will turn yourself into a burnt piece of popcorn.
2. If fired at night, is the rocket motor exhaust visible from a nearly head-on angle?
Not sure...sorry. I don't think I ever saw one fired at night, honestly...by head on, do you mean if one were fired at you? I'm not sure I understand the question, but I probably wouldn't know, anyway...sorry.

M134
I was in the infantry...I think these are the guns mounted on the apaches? If so, I've seen them fired, and they are badass, and I've been told that they use an electric charge instead of a firing pin, but besides these little bits of trivia, I don't know anything about them...sorry.

Know anything about the H&K MP5SD4s? (See relevant post upthread)
I was told that the MP5's recoil is designed to go straight back, as opposed to up and to the right, so to keep the shot groups tight even at full auto...no personal experience, just what I was told by a guy who fired one. Besides that (and knowing what they look like) I have no experience with this one.

I know it sort of defeats the purpose of just asking us, but check the FM manuals for more info:

at4:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-23-25/index.html

mk-19:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-22-27/index.html

The rest of them:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/

Couldn't find one for the minigun, and I doubt there is one for the MP5, but there is plenty of light reading here. The 7-10 is near and dear to my heart.