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seun
11-04-2010, 04:30 PM
This is from the introduction to the Mammoth Book of Best New Horror edited by Stephen Jones...

"Whereas the British will invariably tell you straight what they think of something, many Americans would rather not say anything negative (presumably under the cultural delusion that 'everybody's a winner'). Well, everybody's not. Just because you've written a story, published a book or produced a piece of art, it does not automatically mean you that you have achieved anything special (no matter how many self-help manuals and reality TV talent shows tell you differently)."

This point is in relation to a friend of Jones who asked him his opinion on a new dvd project (Jones said he liked the acting but a few other issues let the project down. The friend wasn't happy about this). Would you say the point in the difference between the UK and the US is true or is Jones generalising? Based on some of the replies in a couple of threads with a similar issue, I'm wondering if there's some truth to it.

The book is here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mammoth-Book-Best-New-Horror/dp/1849013721/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288873682&sr=1-1

Phaeal
11-04-2010, 05:29 PM
Whew. I finally finished rolling on the floor laughing over the notion that Americans are afraid to say negative things. You shouldn't have asked that question so soon after a major election.

Nor was I aware of an American "cultural delusion" that everyone IS a winner. Maybe there's one that everyone CAN BE a winner. It's often phrased: "In America, anyone can be President." Or, more realistically, "Anyone can aspire to be President." (Though as the system works now, the desire to be President might be proof of insanity. ;) )

As for the contention that not all works of art are special, that depends on the definition of "special." Talk about subjectivity.

The generalization cited is about as big as the planet Jupiter. That's all.

JimmyB27
11-04-2010, 05:32 PM
If it is an Americanism to think everyone can be a winner, it's spreading over here to join MacDonalds, Starbucks and all the other odious things we've imported from the USA*. Remember the hooha about school sports days not having winners anymore?

*Not to imply that all things from the USA, or even all things we've imported from there are odious.

seun
11-04-2010, 05:54 PM
Whew. I finally finished rolling on the floor laughing over the notion that Americans are afraid to say negative things. You shouldn't have asked that question so soon after a major election.


Haha. Fair point. :D

Mr Flibble
11-04-2010, 05:57 PM
Sounds like a whopping generalisation to me. A bit liek the one about all Brits being really polite, which obviously fails when it comes to me :D

seun
11-04-2010, 06:06 PM
I do think it's a generalisation but I can see some small degree of truth to it. Americans strike me as friendlier and more positive than us Brits so they're more likely to go with the idea of saying nothing if you can't say something nice.

Mr Flibble
11-04-2010, 06:13 PM
Americans strike me as friendlier and more positive than us Brits

Less snarky and cynical for sure lol. I know what you mean, especially in person as opposed to on the net.

But I'm not sure you can say that about a whole country, either way. Especially one with so many people in as the US.

Sevvy
11-04-2010, 06:17 PM
There is some truth to the generalization, or rather I can see where he is getting that idea from. We have the "American Dream," where if you just work hard enough you can have that nice house with the big yard and 2.5 kids. Then there are things like stopping the use of red pens for correcting papers because it makes kids feel bad. And there are some parts of America where people really do seem to be friendlier than others (I'm from NY, but I lived in Utah for a few years, and Utahns are waaaaay nicer than NYers).

I would say that while we do have the positive, "reach for the stars" attitude taught to us in schools, but I wouldn't say that we're friendlier. I think that just depends on the person.

Bmwhtly
11-04-2010, 06:20 PM
I don't think it's a generalisation. I think it's entirely bollocks.

If there is a kernel of truth in it, I'd say he's turned it the wrong way round.

RemusShepherd
11-04-2010, 06:22 PM
There are a lot of different subcultures in America. In the midwest we have a tendency to be polite to the point of ridiculous euphemism. It's called "Minnesota Nice" in Minnesota -- they probably have different terms for it elsewhere.

On the other hand, New Yorkers or Texans are more likely to give you a blatant or blunt opinion. Don't make the mistake of thinking that the US is homogenous.

Julie Worth
11-04-2010, 06:23 PM
We have the "American Dream," where if you just work hard enough you can have that nice house with the big yard and 2.5 kids.

My dream was always to fall into money, rent a flat in Paris, and share a cat with a neighbor.

Sevvy
11-04-2010, 06:25 PM
My dream was always to fall into money, rent a flat in Paris, and share a cat with a neighbor.

That's the re-released and updated version of the American dream. ^_^

seun
11-04-2010, 07:11 PM
Don't make the mistake of thinking that the US is homogenous.

I didn't and wouldn't. In Jones' defence, I don't think he has either although I think he could have phrased his point a little better.

BrooklynLee
11-04-2010, 07:22 PM
Actually, if I may generalize about my own culture, I think the tendency in American is for people to be so self-confident that they often assume that something someone else achieved is easy and therefore belittle it. For example, I remember getting a poem published in a literary journal and telling a friend. He said, "that's nice but if I got my stuff published I would only do it in the big magazines, like the New Yorker or something." As the old song says, "Anything you can do, I can do better."

Margarita Skies
11-04-2010, 07:24 PM
What the heck is this guy's problem? Why is he talking so much utter crap? (the author of that book or whatever it is.)

Williebee
11-04-2010, 07:26 PM
Originally Posted by Sevvy
We have the "American Dream," where if you just work hard enough you can have that nice house with the big yard and 2.5 kids.

I keep knocking on doors, asking if I can have their leftover .5 of a kid. No one says yes.

Sometimes they call the cops.

jonbon.benjamin
11-04-2010, 07:37 PM
I have worked quite a lot in America and i have to say i feel this is flipped reverse.

I find us Brits to usually be more nice (in the sense that we tend to say nothing at all rather than something nasty) where as Americans tend to say it as it is.

This is, of course, a generalisation. A big one at that.

JB

seun
11-04-2010, 07:40 PM
I keep knocking on doors, asking if I can have their leftover .5 of a kid. No one says yes.

Sometimes they call the cops.

I was going to make a joke along these lines but couldn't think of a way to make a joke about half a child to not be in bad taste. :evil

mscelina
11-04-2010, 07:46 PM
I was going to make a joke along these lines but couldn't think of a way to make a joke about half a child to not be in bad taste. :evil

An American wouldn't care about bad taste. My husband is the local expert on dead baby jokes.

The intro is pretty much horseshit, as we say around these here parts. There are proportionally as many blunt Americans as blunt Brits in my experience, and no matter what country you're in, you're going to be able to find the assholes. Just sayin'...

Sevvy
11-04-2010, 07:47 PM
An American wouldn't care about bad taste. My husband is the local expert on dead baby jokes.

The intro is pretty much horseshit, as we say around these here parts. There are proportionally as many blunt Americans as blunt Brits in my experience, and no matter what country you're in, you're going to be able to find the assholes. Just sayin'...

I think it's the other way around; the a-holes usually find you. ^_~

mscelina
11-04-2010, 07:51 PM
No, I seem to have an asswipe magnet. It was worse before I got married, but it still works judging from my experiences over the past week or so.

:D

Haggis
11-04-2010, 08:01 PM
I do think it's a generalisation but I can see some small degree of truth to it. Americans strike me as friendlier and more positive than us Brits so they're more likely to go with the idea of saying nothing if you can't say something nice.
Nah. You're mistaking us with the Canadians.

veinglory
11-04-2010, 08:03 PM
Its a generalisation but with an element of truth to it. I have lived/worked in the UK and US and while the Brits tend to be more polite and less directly critical in polite settings, they are also less inclined to interpret criticism of a project as a personal attack. Generally speaking.

In scientific settings Brits are more likely to see active interogation of a new idea as positive engagement and support even if it is negative, Americans are more inclined to see the ratio of positive/negative utterances as an indication of your personal support/enthusiasm for the idea and take engagement as a given. Just in my experience.

mscelina
11-04-2010, 08:08 PM
Nah. You're mistaking us with the Canadians.

:ROFL: Good point!

JimmyB27
11-04-2010, 08:22 PM
What the heck is this guy's problem? Why is he talking so much utter crap? (the author of that book or whatever it is.)
You must be British. ;)

Jamesaritchie
11-04-2010, 08:32 PM
Everything is a generalization to a large degree. As soon as you say Americans, rather than "most Americans", you must be generalizing. We don't all think alike, and more than any other group or country thinks alike.

Having said this, there is the silly ass notion in America that you've succeeded just because you tried something. How often have you seen the phrase "You only fail if you don't try." I see this applied to writers all the time, and it's not only silly, it's incredibly counterproductive.

If you can't fail, you can't succeed. Failure is not a dirty word, and the person who never fails is too cowardly to try enough things. I can't remember the exact wording, but a lot of years ago I read something that stuck with me. "Failure builds character, success tests character, and claiming success where none exists reveals character."

Writing a novel that manages to get published is a good thing, but it hardly means the writer is great, or even any good at all. Getting published is the easy part. Just because most fail before they get published in no way means you've succeeded just because you do get a novel published somewhere.

"Success" is easy. Just set your goals so low you can't fail. Shoot the arrow into the target, and then paint the bulls-eye around it.

This does seem to be the modern American way. It isn't about saying negative things, just about all of us do this, as long as the negative things are about someone else.

Anyway, there is a lot of truth in what Jones says. The English do seem to understand that trying does not mean you've succeeded, that success is a ladder, not a line in the sand.

Haggis
11-04-2010, 08:44 PM
Everything is a generalization to a large degree. As soon as you say Americans, rather than "most Americans", you must be generalizing. We don't all think alike, and more than any other group or country thinks alike.

Having said this, there is the silly ass notion in America that you've succeeded just because you tried something. How often have you seen the phrase "You only fail if you don't try." I see this applied to writers all the time, and it's not only silly, it's incredibly counterproductive.

If you can't fail, you can't succeed. Failure is not a dirty word, and the person who never fails is too cowardly to try enough things. I can't remember the exact wording, but a lot of years ago I read something that stuck with me. "Failure builds character, success tests character, and claiming success where none exists reveals character."

Writing a novel that manages to get published is a good thing, but it hardly means the writer is great, or even any good at all. Getting published is the easy part. Just because most fail before they get published in no way means you've succeeded just because you do get a novel published somewhere.

"Success" is easy. Just set your goals so low you can't fail. Shoot the arrow into the target, and then paint the bulls-eye around it.

This does seem to be the modern American way. It isn't about saying negative things, just about all of us do this, as long as the negative things are about someone else.

Anyway, there is a lot of truth in what Jones says. The English do seem to understand that trying does not mean you've succeeded, that success is a ladder, not a line in the sand.

Or as Teddy Roosevelt said:
The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

JimmyB27
11-04-2010, 08:50 PM
Everything is a generalization to a large degree.
Even this. ;)

blacbird
11-04-2010, 11:42 PM
"Whereas the British SCOTS will invariably tell you straight what they think of something,

Fixed.

And the comment about Americans is truly laughable.

Soccer Mom
11-04-2010, 11:53 PM
Trying to come up with any sort of homogeneous attitude for a population of 310,622,000 is ludicrous. There is something to regionalism here. New York and California are very culturally different as are Texas and Vermont. Worlds apart, although part of the same nation.

Miss Plum
11-04-2010, 11:53 PM
(presumably under the cultural delusion that 'everybody's a winner')

That particular delusion belongs to a particular American subculture.

quicklime
11-05-2010, 12:05 AM
This is from the introduction to the Mammoth Book of Best New Horror edited by Stephen Jones...

"Whereas the British will invariably tell you straight what they think of something, many Americans would rather not say anything negative (presumably under the cultural delusion that 'everybody's a winner'). Well, everybody's not. Just because you've written a story, published a book or produced a piece of art, it does not automatically mean you that you have achieved anything special (no matter how many self-help manuals and reality TV talent shows tell you differently)."

This point is in relation to a friend of Jones who asked him his opinion on a new dvd project (Jones said he liked the acting but a few other issues let the project down. The friend wasn't happy about this). Would you say the point in the difference between the UK and the US is true or is Jones generalising? Based on some of the replies in a couple of threads with a similar issue, I'm wondering if there's some truth to it.

The book is here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mammoth-Book-Best-New-Horror/dp/1849013721/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288873682&sr=1-1


depends on the person. Also, I'm an American, so I think in skewed, American terms, but I think you could say there are sort of two british archetypes I'm familiar with--there is the "proper" Brit (think Hugh grant in most movies outside of Bridget Jones, Colin Firth, the Queen) and more of a "pub Brit (think Hugh in Bridget Jones specifically, Simon Peg, etc.).

2 different types, I think the "proper" archetype may be even less likely to say what they mean than an American, but withouth question the "pub type" would not. Americans are homogeneously weak-kneed, you have 2 phenotypes. :-p

By comparison, and further offensive generalizing, I've worked with a number of Russians, and I know some peopel who feel Russians are invariably rude and unpleasant, but I think they are just further along the spectrum--they are brutally honest,and would tell Christ his stigmata were ugly. in my experience if you were to generalize, and a woman asked if her skirt made her ass look big, you'd get something like this:

your backside looks absolitely fine, dear (proper brit)

your butt looks nice--that's really cute (american)

yes, it does make you bottom look fairly large (pub brit)

it is huge (Russian)





*bracing for angry brits, but it does seem there is a dichotomy htere, whereas I agree totally with the editor that Americans are unified in their desire to fluff

backslashbaby
11-05-2010, 07:49 AM
I love the generalizations above :D I love it when many of them are true, I admit. Give me a rude guy from Brooklyn, please!

I've seen a split on this in both the South, where I live, and with my classmates, tutor, etc in England. Some are wonderfully blunt, and some are adorably meek about offending someone.

A local example that made me smile:

In Hickory, NC, a town not far from me, we have a hideous case that may involve parents doing unspeakable things to their daughter, who is feared dead.

The neighbors were caught on the news yelling at the man as he came to pick up his things from the house.

"We are really, really angry!" was one of the taunts :ROFL:

blacbird
11-05-2010, 07:51 AM
"Failure builds character, success tests character, and claiming success where none exists reveals character."

Ah! I figured it out: I have such a quantity of character now that nobody wants to test it.

maestrowork
11-05-2010, 07:57 AM
The author must not have watched any American reality TV.

Or politics, for that matter.

(on the other hand, it seems like on talent shows it's only the Brits that are abrasive... The Americans are often the "oh, you're so lovely" sorts)

Bs_08
11-05-2010, 09:09 AM
generalization for sure BUT:

as far as children are concerned i have noticed them being coddled waaaay more than i was back when i was in school. the "self esteem movement" is so focused on making kids feel good about themselves that "generation y" can barely function in the workplace without at least a dozen ass-pats from the boss every day. whenever i have to deal with one of them about their performance i immediately have to tell them they're doing a great job (and then attach the "but") or they become insecure or worse they become defensive, it's like talking to a shaking chihuahua or one of those little yapping dogs that wont shut up, depending on the reaction.

see here:
http://www.cio.com/article/149053/Management_Techniques_for_Bringing_Out_the_Best_in _Generation_Y
(quote is from page 2.)

Generation Y is also the product of the self-esteem movement that infiltrated public schools in the 1990s and proclaimed all children winners. Members of Generation Y have repeatedly been told they are special. They have received high doses of acclaim for all activities in which they participate, and thus tend to rely upon external praise from authority figures (parents, teachers, bosses) to encourage their efforts and validate their accomplishments. Raised under the shadow of Baby Boomer idealism, Millennials have been taught they can make a difference.

(And yes, I'm a bitter gen x-er.)

but yeah, the guy who wrote that is really generalizing, implying that a majority of america is like this. it's only a certain demographic.

seun
11-05-2010, 02:22 PM
(on the other hand, it seems like on talent shows it's only the Brits that are abrasive)

I sometimes wonder if this has a connection to something distinctly British. Apparently, we're all polite and deferential so when we see someone like Simon Cowell, for example, being rude, getting away with being rude and getting paid to be rude, we like it. And I wonder if that's because we want to do the same.

Priene
11-05-2010, 02:26 PM
Cowell's just an update on an old archtype, the pantomime villain. Mickey Most and Tony Hatch did the same thing thirty-five years ago.

NeuroFizz
11-05-2010, 04:12 PM
Back in the 1970s there was a movement in American public education to de-emphasize competition and go to the "everyone gets a ribbon" type of mentality. That petered out in the 1980s but there are still holdovers. Any baby-boomer hippies likely still hold their ribbons high, but this young generation coming up is as cutthroat as any I have ever seen. And look at American business practices. Screw anybody and everybody for a buck is the cry of an end-justifies-the-means business class. How's that for a generalization in the opposite direction?

quicklime
11-05-2010, 05:39 PM
Back in the 1970s there was a movement in American public education to de-emphasize competition and go to the "everyone gets a ribbon" type of mentality. That petered out in the 1980s but there are still holdovers. Any baby-boomer hippies likely still hold their ribbons high, but this young generation coming up is as cutthroat as any I have ever seen. And look at American business practices. Screw anybody and everybody for a buck is the cry of an end-justifies-the-means business class. How's that for a generalization in the opposite direction?


true, but in a different way....a "if I don't get my ribbon, fuck you, I'm goin' home."

They did an interesting story on NPR about a year ago about how the twenty-somethings are so hard to hold onto in industry because they seem to think for showing up and doing their work everyone gets a promotion, which is mathematically impossible, but they expect their gold star just for hauling their asses in each day. Many seem to think they are already overacheivers for doing the baseline job, and when they don't get rewarded "appropriately", they job-hop.

Not 100% sure I buy all of it, but knowing a lot of college kids and 20-somethings, up through my age, I can certainly see it.

Priene
11-05-2010, 05:43 PM
They did an interesting story on NPR about a year ago about how the twenty-somethings are so hard to hold onto in industry because they seem to think for showing up and doing their work everyone gets a promotion, which is mathematically impossible, but they expect their gold star just for hauling their asses in each day. Many seem to think they are already overacheivers for doing the baseline job, and when they don't get rewarded "appropriately", they job-hop.


The denunciation of the young is a necessary part of the hygiene of older people, and greatly assists the circulation of their blood.
- Logan Pearsall Smith

Mr Flibble
11-05-2010, 05:54 PM
Not 100% sure I buy all of it, but knowing a lot of college kids and 20-somethings, up through my age, I can certainly see it.


Partly yes and partly no I'd say. Depends entirely on the person. Last job, I worked with half a dozen 17-21 year olds. They turned up and were affronted when asked to do, well, anything. A request such as 'Hey, X-who-has-done-nothing-all-day, give me a hand with this Extremely Heavy Thing' was rebutted with a complaint to the manager about me because 'She didn't say please, so I don't have to help because she was rude' and that was why it was clearly okay for their answer to be 'F off'

But tbh, it was more that the manager let them do it that was the problem. One left to work on a building site, got a verbal clip round the ear the first day for backchat, told in no uncertain terms what was what and is like a changed kid


On the other hand the teens I work with at the moment are bloody superb.

Phaeal
11-05-2010, 05:57 PM
It's the tragedy of humanity that by the time the young learn from the old, they've already made all the mistakes learning from the old would have prevented. Crows are different. Their young value the wisdom of the elders. One day the crows will rule the world. Make friends with your local murders now!

Priene
11-05-2010, 06:27 PM
You're thinking of rooks. Crows are miserable solitary little buggers.

quicklime
11-05-2010, 07:01 PM
The denunciation of the young is a necessary part of the hygiene of older people, and greatly assists the circulation of their blood.
- Logan Pearsall Smith



I include quite a few in my age class....and 36 isn't old, dammit :rant:


the point is, while jobs have certainly changed over time as well, there is a greater sense of entitlement in the younger (including my own) generations that there was in the past; we grew up pretty damn cushy and with everyone a star in school, and we're not as driven or hungry as folks who heard their parents stories about the depression, for example. A great many fail to see that "acceptable" and "extraordinary" are 2 separate bars, and if they do what is "expected" they expect to be rewarded like rockstars for hitting the bottom rung.

Eddyz Aquila
11-05-2010, 07:21 PM
Writing a book and being published is nothing special?

So, another guy who stepped on the gilded throne and decides he's so amazing he wants to share with us that it's so simple to publish a book...




Writing a novel that manages to get published is a good thing, but it hardly means the writer is great, or even any good at all. Getting published is the easy part. Just because most fail before they get published in no way means you've succeeded just because you do get a novel published somewhere.

James, based on your words, we haven't achieved anything special because we only wrote a book and that's it. So, based on the same words, only the likes of JK Rowling and Stephanie Meyer have achieved something special because they changed the world with their books?

RemusShepherd
11-05-2010, 07:48 PM
Writing a book and being published is nothing special?

So, another guy who stepped on the gilded throne and decides he's so amazing he wants to share with us that it's so simple to publish a book...

James, based on your words, we haven't achieved anything special because we only wrote a book and that's it. So, based on the same words, only the likes of JK Rowling and Stephanie Meyer have achieved something special because they changed the world with their books?

I'm not speaking for James, but I think I understand his ladder analogy.

I prefer to think of it as a series of plateaus. Writing a book is one plateau. Publishing it is another. Changing the world with your published book is another plateau.

Some people are happy with the plateau they're on. Others just want to reach the next level. A few people have the ambition to run all the way up to the highest plateau. In the end, it's not the plateau you're on that matters -- what matters is whether you have the drive to keep going to the next one or higher. Accomplishments count less than character, in this worldview.

I only wish character was as easy to measure as accomplishments. Character's where I'm a viking. ;)

quicklime
11-05-2010, 08:03 PM
Writing a book and being published is nothing special?

So, another guy who stepped on the gilded throne and decides he's so amazing he wants to share with us that it's so simple to publish a book...





James, based on your words, we haven't achieved anything special because we only wrote a book and that's it. So, based on the same words, only the likes of JK Rowling and Stephanie Meyer have achieved something special because they changed the world with their books?


depends how you want to define great, I suppose.

You must have an author you dislike--is he special or great?

Maybe we define differently, but to me, I agree. getting published is HARD, but getting there may mean you were tenacious, lucky, good, patient, or any combination. I intend to become a successful mid-list author, and if I do so, I will be proud of the fact I made it. Does that mean I consider it anything remotely resembling "greatness"? Absolutely not. But again, only my opinion.

Eddyz Aquila
11-05-2010, 08:04 PM
I'm not speaking for James, but I think I understand his ladder analogy.

I prefer to think of it as a series of plateaus. Writing a book is one plateau. Publishing it is another. Changing the world with your published book is another plateau.

Some people are happy with the plateau they're on. Others just want to reach the next level. A few people have the ambition to run all the way up to the highest plateau. In the end, it's not the plateau you're on that matters -- what matters is whether you have the drive to keep going to the next one or higher. Accomplishments count less than character, in this worldview.

I only wish character was as easy to measure as accomplishments. Character's where I'm a viking. ;)

I understand James' analogy as well but even if people set themselves their own plateaus, it should be considered some achievement at least that you managed to finish a book.

And it's all about how common your "achievements" are. Writing a book is an achievement because not many people manage to do... I am talking here about a proper book, with grammar and spelling, not just a bunch of words thrown in together.

I agree with you on the fact that it is about character but taking it so far to say that writing a book and then publishing it is nothing is in my opinion too much. And this disregards any plateau, on any plateau writing a (proper) book is an achievement. Making it to the NYT bestseller list is another matter.

I think even for JK Rowling writing a book is an achievement...

Phaeal
11-05-2010, 09:22 PM
You're thinking of rooks. Crows are miserable solitary little buggers.

Um, no, they're not. Check out the Oct. 24 Nature episode. Or just look at the associated FAQ:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/a-murder-of-crows/crow-facts/5965/

Specifically:



Social Environment
Crows are very social and have a tight-knit family. They roost in huge numbers (in the thousands) to protect themselves from enemies like red-tailed hawks, horned-owls, and raccoons. Crows also use at least 250 different calls. The distress call brings other crows to their aid, as crows will defend unrelated crows. Crows mate for life.

quicklime
11-05-2010, 10:12 PM
I understand James' analogy as well but even if people set themselves their own plateaus, it should be considered some achievement at least that you managed to finish a book.

...


why?

I'm not disagreeing, but you're trying to mandate what is a value judgment. Plenty of folks may not consider it an acheivement, they "should"? Why? They can do as they wish, no?

And finishing a book may be an acheivement, but there's planty of crap out there, so its hardly an end-all--Paris Hilton has a book, I believe. the Situation will shortly, for Christ's sake

veinglory
11-05-2010, 10:24 PM
I get hassled for not considering some of these things a great acheivement. "No you should, you're a writer now". My self-esteem is just fine thanks. I'll decide what I think is or is not a big deal.

Phaeal
11-05-2010, 10:39 PM
why?

I'm not disagreeing, but you're trying to mandate what is a value judgment. Plenty of folks may not consider it an acheivement, they "should"? Why? They can do as they wish, no?

And finishing a book may be an acheivement, but there's planty of crap out there, so its hardly an end-all--Paris Hilton has a book, I believe. the Situation will shortly, for Christ's sake

The Situation. :roll: At least I now know what the old reggae song was all about: "Many people see I, many people ask I, why am I a Rasta man? It's because of the Babylon, and the Situation." Geez, that guy looks too young to have gotten around so much.

Priene
11-05-2010, 11:09 PM
Um, no, they're not. Check out the Oct. 24 Nature episode. Or just look at the associated FAQ:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/a-murder-of-crows/crow-facts/5965/

Specifically:




Please don't say um. I detest the expression. There must be a difference in definition of crow, because where I come from, rooks are social and crows are solitary. See Crow Country (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Crow-Country-Mark-Cocker/dp/0224076019) by Mark Cocker.

Edit: There's a discussion of this subject at birdforum.net (http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=75274)

DancingMaenid
11-05-2010, 11:17 PM
(on the other hand, it seems like on talent shows it's only the Brits that are abrasive... The Americans are often the "oh, you're so lovely" sorts)

I always suspected that was intentional. There's always a mean British guy and a sweet American woman, just like Simon and Paula from American Idol. Now, I haven't studied the phenomenon in depth, so I suppose it's possible it existed before American Idol, but I still call copycat.

Soccer Mom
11-05-2010, 11:20 PM
Are we done now? I'm going to lock this before we get into a flame war over crows.