Them vs. Those

I would use "them", but those wouldn' be wrong, but the sentence seems incomplete. whatever comes after "instead" might change my opinion.

I ask what "them" and "those" are. If it's people, it would be them. If it was things it would be "those." However, before you use those or them, they need to refer to as someone or something in the preceding sentence. I also agree that instead needs to be clarified as well.

I would suggest making it into two sentences as well because, as is, the structure seems a bit awkward.

I'm not sure if you mean his thoughts or something/someone else? The instead needs more context.

"Instead" threw me off. What exactly do you mean?

I'd use "them" in this context. "Those" is the plural of "that," so it's more specific. The sentence doesn't look right with those, because you just mentioned the "thoughts." No reason to use "those."

I'd rewrite it:

Jack was busy paying attention to those horrible thoughts in his head.

"Them" is the objective case of "they," whether objects or people. So use "them."

"Those" is the plural of "that." So to determine if you should use "them" or "those," consider if this is active voice:


Jack had horrible thoughts in his head, and [?] caught his attention.

Which word would you put in there? "They" or "that/those"? I'd say "they" -- "that/those" is too specific. So in passive voice, you would use "them."

I agree they is not limited to people, so them is a legitimate choice here. On the other hand, I see some suggestion of a this-or-that contrast. In that case, those would be more emphatic.

But Maestro, how are you seeing passive voice in this sentence? Objective case, to be sure, since it's the object of a preposition, but not passive voice.

FennelGiraffe said:

I agree they is not limited to people, so them is a legitimate choice here. On the other hand, I see some suggestion of a this-or-that contrast. In that case, those would be more emphatic.

But Maestro, how are you seeing passive voice in this sentence? Objective case, to be sure, since it's the object of a preposition, but not passive voice.

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In English, aren't passive and objective forms the same? I may be confusing myself I think Maestro was telling what you'd do if it were passive voice. Which is the same form of the word as if it were objective case, too, yes?

I agree that 'those' sounds rather specific. These vs those. It's kind of a special setup, I'd say, but I'm not a grammar guru, for the record.

backslashbaby said:

In English, aren't passive and objective forms the same? I may be confusing myself I think Maestro was telling what you'd do if it were passive voice. Which is the same form of the word as if it were objective case, too, yes?

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Passive voice is verbs. Objective case is pronouns.

In the example, both "those" and "them" is generally fine. Which you'd prefer depends entirely on context. "Them" is probably more frequent.

There are examples, where "those" is mandatory, and "them" would change the meaning: when "those" is referring to things in the real world, rather than to things already mentioned. Example:


***

I think maestro was suggesting to put the thoughts' pronoun into the subject slot of the subordinate clause rather than the object clause and used the term passive voice because a change in the verb's voice also results in a case change (although object --> subject is the direction of active --> passive, but that doesn't matter, because both clauses are active voice anyway; the method to bring the pronoun into the subject slot was not a voice change - it was a verb change.)

FennelGiraffe said:

I agree they is not limited to people, so them is a legitimate choice here. On the other hand, I see some suggestion of a this-or-that contrast. In that case, those would be more emphatic.

But Maestro, how are you seeing passive voice in this sentence? Objective case, to be sure, since it's the object of a preposition, but not passive voice.

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Oops, sorry, I mean objective case, not passive voice.

Dawnstorm said:

In the example, both "those" and "them" is generally fine. Which you'd prefer depends entirely on context. "Them" is probably more frequent.

There are examples, where "those" is mandatory, and "them" would change the meaning: when "those" is referring to things in the real world, rather than to things already mentioned. Example:

These are my apples. You can eat those instead.​

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Right. In the OP's case, "those" doesn't quite make sense because it's not specific and it's confusing. "He had bad thoughts" and he's busy paying attention to "those" instead. "Those"? Which? Are there other thoughts? Or should it be "these"?

When in doubt, use "they/them."

I think maestro was suggesting to put the thoughts' pronoun into the subject slot of the subordinate clause rather than the object clause and used the term passive voice because a change in the verb's voice also results in a case change (although object --> subject is the direction of active --> passive, but that doesn't matter, because both clauses are active voice anyway; the method to bring the pronoun into the subject slot was not a voice change - it was a verb change.

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Right. I was trying to say: make it an active form and see if you should use "they" or "that." Then the objective case would be either "them" or "those." But I goofed by saying "then use the passive voice" -- by which I really meant objective case.

MJRevell said:

Quick question, because my mind's gone blank. An example sentence:

Jack had horrible thoughts in his head, and he was busy paying attention to them instead / those instead.

Which is correct? Or can you use either?

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I'm far from a grammar guru, but I believe what's throwing the whole question off is the word "instead". The sentence doesn't offer an alternative, but leave us with an "instead." If that word were dropped, there would be no question as to which word to use:

Jack had horrible thoughts in his head, and he was busy paying attention to them.

I also wonder where else Jack may have thoughts. His butt? his foot?

RJK said:

I also wonder where else Jack may have thoughts. His butt?

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Maybe. I've certainly known people who operate that way.