Do kids absorb the backlash from parent-teacher conflict?

Perks · Oct 27, 2010

I've gotten two daughters as far as the sixth and second grade. Outside of a small hiccup a few years ago when I was labeled as 'anti-candy' for objecting to one teacher's policy of rewarding the kids with sweets multiple times a day, it's been reasonably smooth sailing. My girls are bright and easy going, so I've been lucky enough be able to stay a low-maintenance parent. I help out in the classroom from time to time and everything's been more or less fine.

Until...

Julia, my oldest, is in the sixth grade. It's the first year of the multi-teacher middle school format. And we've got a problem. In fact, I have a list of problems with her Social Studies teacher, but I've (at this point) limited it to one battle in particular.

In all of her other classes, Julia's test come back scored in the high 90s to 100 or better (if there's extra credit) but on the four Social studies tests they've had, each time she's gotten a grade in the low to mid 70s. The teacher sends back the answer sheets to be signed by the parents. In this class, the questions are given to the kids on a separate paper. They do not review the tests in class after they are graded, even though many of the students are dismayed by their test scores. (This tidbit was conveyed to me by my daughter, but confirmed by the teacher in a conference yesterday.)

So, weeks ago, I started asking for the test questions. I asked very nicely. I wanted to be able to go over the ones Julia missed so that I could help her understand where the trouble was.

First I was told that there was a only a classroom set of test papers and she didn't allow them to leave. Then she upped that to saying that she couldn't make a copy because the school was trying to limit how much paper it used. When I offered to return the test sheets the very next day or to donate a ream of paper, she said I could come in before or after school and look at the test under her supervision.

I requested a conference. Yesterday, the test papers were afforded nuclear launch code status and she told me that she couldn't risk them being 'out there'. She flat out told me I wasn't getting those papers and cited that if she did it for me, she'd have to do it for everyone.

So now I've contacted the principle.

My concern, which wasn't until someone else suggested it to me, is that Julia will suffer the inevitable backlash because the teacher will be very angry that I "went over her head". Has anyone else found this to be true or dealt with a similar situation?

Mr Flibble · Oct 27, 2010

IF there is backlash - and any half-decent teacher would make sure there is not - then you go over her head again and complain that the teacher seems incapable of separating her emotions from her teaching, to your daughter's detriment.

The teacher is being utterly ridiculous, and I suspect she knows it. You've every right to see what your child is being taught/tested on. If she doesn't like that, tbh she shouldn't be a teacher.

Ambrosia · Oct 27, 2010

It is possible there will be a backlash. I suspect this teacher has a mental problem. I also suspect your daughter would be better off pulled from her class.

Go over the teacher's head as much and as often as you need to until you get this satisfactorily resolved. And make sure your daughter knows you are on her side and are backing her up. It is important she not feel abandoned in this situation.

Then remember, because it is really hard when a parent is in the thick of the battle, that as long as your daughter feels love and support from you the school stuff will pass. Everyone has crappy experiences at some point going through school. It will be unimportant when she reaches the "real world". What is important is the lessons she is taking away that you "have her back". That is priceless.

Good luck.

Perks · Oct 27, 2010

It's been a very weird back and forth with this lady. For the first test, she'd told the kids that it would be open book. When they showed up for class, she instructed them to tuck their books under their desks and at the collective gasp, said, "So? I changed my mind."

I don't know what in the world is going on there.

But thanks, IRU and Ambrosia, you're right, I will keep on top of this.

Perks · Oct 27, 2010

And since we're on the subject, the second strangest thing about this situation is this woman's weird disposition towards different countries. (Do keep in mind, she's a Social Studies teacher.)

They have a project going where the students each make up a travel brochure for a different country. While the teacher was explaining the project, she asked if any of the kids had ever been out of the country. When one little boy said he'd been to India, this woman said, "India? You went to India? Isn't it hot and crowded there?"

The little boy got huffy and said that, no, it was nice where he went.

Then at the drawing of the names of the countries, a kid got 'Austria'. The teacher rolled her eyes and said, 'Well, at least it's not Australia."

Yesterday when the kids were talking about their projects, my daughter said that it was cool that she had drawn Colombia because her Uncle Carlos was from Colombia and he told her about some neat things to research for her brochure. The teacher said, "You know, Colombia is known for it's drug trafficking. It's a very serious problem."

WTF???

The teachers usually hold conferences as a team, so I didn't realize I'd be sitting with all five of them. I didn't yet know about the Colombian thing, but one of the other teachers, the one who had mentioned my daughter's pale skin on the first day of school in front of the whole class, was asking me if Julia's fair skin was a medical condition. (FFS, she's very white, but she's perfectly healthy.) This Social Studies teacher, who was sitting to my right, said, "There are certainly worse things you can be than white." I don't even know how to emphasize this comment properly with italics, because the inflection was such that my first reaction, in my head, was "Holy shit. Did you just say that?"

She probably did not mean that in the way that it sounded. I can't imagine she'd be so bold. But it was completely weird.

CaroGirl · Oct 27, 2010

IMO, there are two sides to this. There's a lesson for Julia that not every situation or every person is "fair" and you have to learn to deal with that in life. Not every test is going to get you an A, even if you think you deserve one. Not every teacher is sane

)).

Ask yourself: is Julia learning the material she needs to move on to the next grade? That, in the end, is what school is about. Learning and growing as a person. It is not, in fact, about marks.

Is she anxious about receiving lower grades in this teacher's class? If so, you can support her in working to do better (hence asking for the test she won't give you, which is a bit weird but probably her perogative) and in learning to cope with receiving a poor grade. It happens.

The other side is whether she's OVERLY anxious about her lower grades. Can she, in fact, cope with this? If not, you do need to support her in a quest to improve the situation.

To be frank, I probably wouldn't go the principal in this situation.

Perks · Oct 27, 2010

CaroGirl said:
IMO, there are two sides to this. There's a lesson for Julia that not every situation or every person is "fair" and you have to learn to deal with that in life. Not every test is going to get you an A, even if you think you deserve one. Not every teacher is sane )).

Ask yourself: is Julia learning the material she needs to move on to the next grade? That, in the end, is what school is about. Learning and growing as a person. It is not, in fact, about marks.

Oh absolutely. I'm not concerned with her grades at all. Julia's more frustrated than anything. She knows that there will be things she does not get As in.

But there were several odd things going on before this happened. The open-book-then-no-open-book was there, but I let that slide as an one-off weird thing. Then Julia was furious, because her progress report showed a '0' for an assignment that she absolutely did and did on time. (I had actually helped her with one of the questions, so I remembered talking about it.) She got marked off for very weird things on the essay portions of the test.

Then I find out that they don't review the tests after they are taken, their homework and notes are never collected or reviewed for accuracy, and they've only been told to 'take notes' but never been coached on how to do it. The only feedback they ever get is the marked up answer sheet without the questions, so they don't even know what they got wrong.

Every time a test or grades are passed out, there is a collective uproar from the students. Most of them are tanking these tests and nobody can find out why because she won't let us see the questions -- even the kids. There's no way to know if they know anything they're supposed to, because nothing but the tests are ever checked for accuracy.

I have to think that she's not getting what she's supposed to learn, because she's getting Ds and Cs on the tests. One of her classmates was crying in the locker room after they'd gotten a test back, because she's in the gifted program and had "never gotten a 56 on anything before." Something's definitely off in that class.

shadowwalker · Oct 27, 2010

The first red flag for me would be the teacher's refusal to let you even see the test questions. That tells me that there was something screwy with A) the test itself or B) the way she graded them.

Then when you mentioned the other teacher (who mentioned the daughter's complexion) - and I immediately decided that whole school is screwy.

At any rate, definitely go as high as you need to to see those test questions. And if there's any backlash, get your butt right back to the school and straighten her out (with the principal in tow).

Perks · Oct 27, 2010

Oh, and I should add that before I had the conference yesterday, I spoke to my daughter. I reviewed all the things that Julia had told me about how assignments were handled, the percentage of the class in dismay over their scores, and the fact that none of their work, beyond the tests, is ever checked to see if they got it right. I told her that she couldn't exaggerate or that I was going to look very foolish when I went in there. She held firm.

In the conference, the teacher confirmed every one of those points, to the shock of the other teachers on the team.

While I don't worry over a bad score here and there or even an entire subject that just doesn't click in Julia's head, I can't just shrug it off when every test is a C or a D and I'm blocked from being allowed to sit down with my girl and her books to see what she's not understanding.

She will very likely hit an academic wall at some point, but it's kinda hard to believe that it would be sixth grade Social Studies that does her in.

Perks · Oct 27, 2010

shadowwalker said:
Then when you mentioned the other teacher (who mentioned the daughter's complexion) - and I immediately decided that whole school is screwy.

This was actually really funny. This teacher started giggling as I was ready to leave and said, "I just have to ask you about something." And I knew what was coming. I thought, seriously, you're not going to go there.

But she did. She "just had to ask about how white Julia is". (She is beautifully olive-skinned herself and my first thought was to say, "Don't worry, it's not contagious, Pocahontas.")

Without my mentioning it, this woman said, laughing, "I mean, I even had to say something about it the very first time I saw her." To which I replied, "I'm aware of that." And the room went a little cold. Lol!

Then she started stammering and apologizing saying, "yeah, I probably shouldn't have done that." All I could say was, "Yeah, it didn't help." She actually asked me if I ever allowed Julia to try to get a little sun.

Then Social Studies lady chimed in and suggested I could take her for a spray tan. She was kidding. It was all so weird.

Mr Flibble · Oct 27, 2010

Then I find out that they don't review the tests after they are taken, their homework and notes are never collected or reviewed for accuracy, and they've only been told to 'take notes' but never been coached on how to do it. The only feedback they ever get is the marked up answer sheet without the questions, so they don't even know what they got wrong.

Every time a test or grades are passed out, there is a collective uproar from the students. Most of them are tanking these tests and nobody can find out why because she won't let us see the questions -- even the kids. There's no way to know if they know anything they're supposed to, because nothing but the tests are ever checked for accuracy.

If no one knows where they are going wrong and therefore cannot put the effort in to make their grades better you totally need to make the headteacher aware of this - preventing a whole class from knowing where they can improve/where they went wrong is not teaching - it's anti teaching. Getting no marks for an assignment that was handed in - especially if no feedback as to why, homework not collected or reviewed, tests not reviewed - is also Not On. It is NOT teaching and you should tell the headteacher in no uncertain terms (okay, be polite, but firm) that you expect better. Much, much better.

robeiae · Oct 27, 2010

Do kids absorb the backlash from parent-teacher conflict?

Yes.

That said, there's something wrong here. Why are you signing answer sheets? That's just stupid. And if the kids don't have the questions available for past tests, how do they address their weaknesses? Sixth grade, while a far cry from college, is not second grade or third grade. These are little people, now.

But maybe it's the subject matter. There are student-teacher problems going on in my daughter's civics class (7th grade), too.

Maryn · Oct 27, 2010

My best guess is that the principal and perhaps even the school board knows about this teacher's idiosyncrasies, but it's going to take more than one bent parent for them to address her shortfalls in the classroom.

I would go to the principal in a heartbeat. There are good teachers and there are bad teachers, some of them tenured (if your school system does that). While having your daughter's back and reinforcing her hard work are the most important for her well-being, it sounds to me as if this teacher's methods could have devastating consequences for any child who has self doubt--or dark skin, third-world ethnicity, or is simply different. The administration needs to know what's going on in the classroom and correct what it finds unacceptable.

Maryn, she-wolf when it comes to her kids' education

CaroGirl · Oct 27, 2010

Okay, so you had a conference with a panel of teachers, including the offending teacher, and got nowhere? Is that right? What about the reaction of the other teachers to the methods of the one you're having the problem with? What did they say during the conference when the subject of test secrecy was raised?

This is a tough one. You say other parents have a problem with this teacher also. How about drafting an email with signatures from all the other parents in the class? If every child is doing poorly, it should reflect on the teaching methods, should it not?

If you meet with the principal, good luck. I hope you can do something about this. I know at our school, there's very little that can be done about bad teachers. Both my kids this year have the same bad teacher. Every year parents complain and every year nothing changes. It's not a private school so parents have little influence, sadly.

brainstorm77 · Oct 27, 2010

My sister had issues with her oldests teacher. The teacher did allow it to go into her teacher/student relationship with the child. My sister had her daughter switched to another class.

The kid had behaviour issues and it was known. The teacher started picking on her, made some extremely over the top comments and well, it spun out of control. My sister never did give details of the parent/teacher meetings they had which included the principal. Only that one meeting left her in tears at what the teacher had said in regards to her daughter, and the principal then had to step in to tell the teacher she was out of line.

When all was taken care of, the kid feared going to school. That's two years ago and now she's fine. But at the time it was a huge stressor for the family.

kayleamay · Oct 27, 2010

Perks! I'm feeling your pain. I'm kind of in the same situation with my sixth-grader. The day of his conference I received his progress report. All of his grades were fine except for a glaring F in Spanish. I questioned my son about it and he said that 2/3 of the class was failing because the teacher refuses to give them their instructions in English. I'll admit, I seriously doubted the truth of this.

That night I went to his conference and sure enough, the teacher confirmed that 2/3 of the class is failing. I asked him about giving the instructions for assignments in English and the teacher said that he will only speak Spanish in a Spanish class. Then I asked him if he as least gave them the instructions in printed form so they could look up the words they didn't understand.

Nope. He told me that he was taught by this method so basically everyone else needed to suck it up.

The teacher is young. I can't imagine he's been there for more than a year or two. But if 2/3 of your class if failing, it's not a learning problem. It's a teaching problem.

I talked to the school about it yesterday. I don't know how things will pan out yet.

Perks · Oct 27, 2010

robeiae said:
That said, there's something wrong here. Why are you signing answer sheets? That's just stupid. And if the kids don't have the questions available for past tests, how do they address their weaknesses? Sixth grade, while a far cry from college, is not second grade or third grade. These are little people, now.

Yeah, this is the crux of it.

CaroGirl said:
Okay, so you had a conference with a panel of teachers, including the offending teacher, and got nowhere? Is that right? What about the reaction of the other teachers to the methods of the one you're having the problem with? What did they say during the conference when the subject of test secrecy was raised?

Actually, the other teachers a) seemed annoyed that this teacher summoned them when I only wanted to talk to her and b) shocked a shit that she didn't review the tests in class after the fact.

I didn't want to go in there with a list of complaints as long as my arm, so I kept the discussion to my being able to review the test questions.

CaroGirl · Oct 27, 2010

kayleamay said:
But if 2/3 of your class if failing, it's not a learning problem. It's a teaching problem.

I agree with this and think it's a great way to phrase it!

robeiae · Oct 27, 2010

My German teacher only spoke to us in Hungarian. At least I think it was Hungarian...

backslashbaby · Oct 27, 2010

That's some crazy stuff, but I'm not the least bit surprised, having had some whacky and horrible teachers myself.

I'd go on up to the Principal. If she's going to take it personally, she already would have with this conference. At least the Principal knowing should put her on better behavior.

Parents do need to complain, overall, in these situations, too. Let your girl know it's just the right thing to do on behalf of future students. You have to try to get it changed. It might be rough, but it's the right thing. That's a good lesson, however it turns out!

Perks · Oct 27, 2010

CaroGirl said:
I agree with this and think it's a great way to phrase it!

Yeah, that's what going on here, except they aren't failing, they're just wallowing in Cs and Ds.

What's weird is that close to 2/3 of this class is in the gifted program and it's definitely eyebrow-raising that sixth grade Social Studies would be their Waterloo.

Trigonometry? Maybe. A full-immersion foreign language? Could happen. See-spot-run geography and primer world history? Unlikely.

veinglory · Oct 27, 2010

Being able to review incorrect answers is a basic and important requirement for learning. I think so long as it stays polite you should keep at it.

stormie · Oct 27, 2010

As a parent and as a former teacher, I can tell you this: Keep on going to the principal when you sense you're not getting anywhere with the teacher. There shouldn't be any backlash against your child from the teacher(s). If there is, again report it to the principal.

See if you can have the principal sit in on a meeting with the teacher(s).

Those two teachers, esp. that first one you mentioned, sound...different, and not in a good way. I can tell you, for about every ten good teachers, there's always one who shouldn't be in the classroom, or at least teaching that grade level.

NeuroFizz · Oct 27, 2010

Perks, this teacher has problems. She obviously lack confidence in her abilities or she would be very open about her testing materials. And a teacher that insecure is likely to be extremely petty when criticized. So, will there be consequences? Of course.

However, I'm going to give a different take that should be accepted in the spirit of constructive comment. I sincerely hope you haven't openly criticized or complained, or otherwise talked down this teacher to your daughter. That, too, will have consequences, one of which is a bad lesson for your daughter. She is going to run into incompetent and difficult people throughout her life. She has to learn to deal with them without a swooping vulture mom tearing the ragged flesh from the person in front of the her.

You are absolutely right in every one of your concerns, and pressing the issue beyond the teacher herself is the right thing to do. Just be careful how much you tell your daughter, or how much she overhears. Students can be very mean and nasty to teachers, particularly when they feel they are fully justified in their behavior as supported by their parent's behavior. This can make a bad situation much worse for everyone involved, and it's not the best lesson to give to a young person.

Perks · Oct 27, 2010

NeuroFizz said:
However, I'm going to give a different take that should be accepted in the spirit of constructive comment. I sincerely hope you haven't openly criticized or complained, or otherwise talked down this teacher to your daughter. That, too, will have consequences, one of which is a bad lesson for your daughter. She is going to run into incompetent and difficult people throughout her life. She has to learn to deal with them without a swooping vulture mom tearing the ragged flesh from the person in front of the her.

You are absolutely right in every one of your concerns, and pressing the issue beyond the teacher herself is the right thing to do. Just be careful how much you tell your daughter, or how much she overhears. Students can be very mean and nasty to teachers, particularly when they feel they are fully justified in their behavior as supported by their parent's behavior. This can make a bad situation much worse for everyone involved, and it's not the best lesson to give to a young person.

Sure, this makes good sense. Unfortunately, all the complaints have come to me via my daughter originally. I've told her that I don't care at all about what grade she gets in this class, but that I expect her to continue to go and go respectfully and do her best work. If the teacher and I can't come to a meeting of the minds, so be it.

Luckily, Julia is a born to the bone ass-kisser. She always has been. I've no fear she'll be the goody little two shoes she always is.

Do kids absorb the backlash from parent-teacher conflict?

delicate #!&@*#! flower

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Grand Duchess

delicate #!&@*#! flower

delicate #!&@*#! flower

Living the dream

delicate #!&@*#! flower

empty-nester!

delicate #!&@*#! flower

delicate #!&@*#! flower

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Touch and go

At Sea

Living the dream

practical experience, FTW

I'm on the phone.

delicate #!&@*#! flower

Living the dream

Touch and go

~~~~*~~~~

delicate #!&@*#! flower

volitare nequeo

storm central

The grad students did it

delicate #!&@*#! flower

*