Good and bad examples of LGBTQIA characters in literature or other media

There's no consensus. Some LGBTQ / non-LGBTQ are going to be completely put off if the character is stereotypical; others will be upset if they're not stereotypical. IMHO, as long as the character has depth and reality to them, I could care less.

I wasn't challenging your knowledge. Anyway, I answered the question, didn't I?

In a movie, book, tv show, respectively:

Good: Charlie (Urbania), Billy Connors (The Boys on the Rock), Willow Rosenberg (Buffy the Vampire Slayer)

Bad: Pretty much all the rest. Yes, it is sad.

I don't watch much TV but I wouldn't say that Kurt is the most important queer on TV.

First, because Glee is at best a strange curiosity outside the US. At worst, it's fairly incomprehensible. Second, there is no universality in anything, and I could say that Simon Doonan in Beautiful People is the bees knees and it would be meaningless to most people.

Like Timmy alluded; just don't cheat, and you'll be fine.

Every one of my characters I've ever written fall in the good camp - or at least they SHOULD and if they don't, I need to re-write a lot.

As for characters NOT from my books?

Hmmm...

Heh. Funnily enough, two good examples would be Sgt. Grifith and Cpl. Magot (both women who are clearly in a romantic relationship) from Caves of Ice and The Traitors Hand. They're not the main characters, but they're strong supporting characters. And it's really weird, cause both books are in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, wherein all of humanity is ruled by an immortal God Emperor who presides over a massive, rotting theocratic galactic empire where billions (with a b) die every few seconds in constant wars against aliens, heretics and DEMONS that live in the Warp. Which you have to fly through if you want to go faster than light.

And yet, in Caves of Ice, Grifith and Magot are the ONLY characters who survive - other than the two characters with Hero Shields on - a rather harrowing incursion through a giant alien vault full of ancient killing machines that are like a cross between the Terminator and Skeletor. And in The Traitor's Hand, they survive again, and there is a rather cute scene were Magot beats the shit out of this Talleran. It was nice.


In an earlier book in the same series, a ancillary character is strongly implied to be gay (he's a spaceship captain), but he does not show up in more than a few scenes.


Hmmm...

Any other examplesssssss.

Can't think of any right now.

Maxinquaye said:

Glee is at best a strange curiosity outside the US.

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It's pretty much a curiosity inside the US as well. Almost always when a show is as popular as Glee was last year (both with viewers and critics) the following season boasts two or three imitators. But there have thus far been no Glee imitators.

I did think of two more characters I liked (and I confess I am naming characters I like, Siren, not necessarily the best characters all round): Nick Brocklehurst (The State Within, A BBC miniseries--at least I think he was gay--he might have just been deep undercover) and Ianto Jones (Torchwood). Ianto was a particular fav of mine and I was devastated when he died.

Ianto and Brocklehurst... Why do Brits always come up with such entertaining names?

ETA: Kurt does not even make my stand-by list.

JohnnyGottaKeyboard said:

It's pretty much a curiosity inside the US as well. Almost always when a show is as popular as Glee was last year (both with viewers and critics) the following season boasts two or three imitators. But there have thus far been no Glee imitators.

I did think of two more characters I liked (and I confess I am naming characters I like, Siren, not necessarily the best characters all round): Nick Brocklehurst (The State Within, A BBC miniseries--at least I think he was gay--he might have just been deep undercover) and Ianto Jones (Torchwood). Ianto was a particular fav of mine and I was devastated when he died.

Ianto and Brocklehurst... Why do Brits always come up with such entertaining names?

ETA: Kurt does not even make my stand-by list.

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For me Ianto and Jack Harkness were the oddest representation of gay/bisexual men I've seen on TV. It seemed more like everyone in that entire show was sexually just whatever, and I personally don't understand that. So, without loving the character, I find Kurt a much more realistic LGBTQ rep. *Shrug*

I'm curious to know what it is you like about Ianto, though.

Maxinquaye said:

First, because Glee is at best a strange curiosity outside the US. At worst, it's fairly incomprehensible. Second, there is no universality in anything, and I could say that Simon Doonan in Beautiful People is the bees knees and it would be meaningless to most people.

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For the record, I like Beautiful People much better than Glee.

Timmy said:

For me Ianto and Jack Harkness were the oddest representation of gay/bisexual men I've seen on TV. It seemed more like everyone in that entire show was sexually just whatever, and I personally don't understand that. So, without loving the character, I find Kurt a much more realistic LGBTQ rep. *Shrug*

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What I like about Torchwood is that for the most part, sexuality wasn't an issue. Sometimes I like stories that specifically deal with "LGBTQ issues" (can't think of a better way to say it) or present realistic depictions of what it's like to be LGBTQ. And sometimes I like stories about being LGBTQ. But sometimes I just want to see characters living like everyone else.

It was refreshing for me that we could see Jack and Ianto kiss without being subjected to Ianto's Very Special Coming Out Episode. And I liked that Toshiko could hook up with a woman and have it be treated mostly the same as if she'd hooked up with a man. And I liked that Torchwood presented a setting where being LGBTQ didn't seem to be an issue at all.

I wish we had more entertainment like that.

Timmy said:

I find Kurt a much more realistic LGBTQ rep. *Shrug*

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Hmm... I know quite a few gay people and yet very few who are anything like Kurt. This could be the circles I move in, but well, there it is.

Timmy said:

I'm curious to know what it is you like about Ianto, though.

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He seemed like an accurate depiction of the gay men I do know--pretty average rather than fabulous. And he took that depiction into a realm (scifi and fantasy) from which it is often excluded. I mean, my mother loved this show. That said, Torchwood was never my favorite show.

DancingMaenid said:

Sometimes I like stories that specifically deal with "LGBTQ issues" (can't think of a better way to say it) or present realistic depictions of what it's like to be LGBTQ. And sometimes I like stories about being LGBTQ. But sometimes I just want to see characters living like everyone else.

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I outgrew my enjoyment of coming out stories a decade ago. They have their place; it's just not a place in which I find myself any longer. Likewise, I have little interest in stories that specifically deal with LGBTQ issues (they can deal with them, I just wish they specifically dealt with other issues). Of course, I don't particularly want to see characters living like everyone else. In fact, I want to read/see a story about lovers on a cruise ship highjacked by terrorists and its up to the two men to save the day! Well, I'm just saying...

For instance, I saw the movie Hellbent at the G&L Film Festival a few years ago. As soon as the end credits started to roll, I turned to my date and said breathlessly: "I've been waiting for that movie my whole life." Needless to say we broke up not long after, but still...!

DancingMaenid said:

For the record, I like Beautiful People much better than Glee.

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For the record, I agree. Despite the fact that Beautiful People is much more surreal, it's more realistic. I mean you actually have Kyle kill his abusive father, and this in an over-the-top sitcom shortly before swinging the feather boa dancing. You have Simon being dragged into a room to be physically assailted by the boy he has a crush on, in the same episode that de sings and dances on the roof with the same boy.

It shouldn't work, but it does.

ETA: For those who have not seen BP here is the very last episode on Youtube, and compare it to Glee.

JohnnyGottaKeyboard said:

I outgrew my enjoyment of coming out stories a decade ago. They have their place; it's just not a place in which I find myself any longer. Likewise, I have little interest in stories that specifically deal with LGBTQ issues (they can deal with them, I just wish they specifically dealt with other issues).

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What's really sad is one year during Pride Week, I'd stopped at Barnes & Noble and checked out their display of GLBT books. I picked two of the coming out stories up and I swear they were written with Mad Libs software. They were both about somebody from a Midwestern state (let's say Iowa and Nebraska) moving to a Big City (Los Angeles and New York) and discovering the Big Gay Culture there (Los Angeles' burgeoning glam rock scene and New York's disco scene), falling into drugs (cocaine and...cocaine) on The Eve Of The AIDS Epidemic.

That said, I'd rather shove needles in my eyes than watch Beautiful People. The FAAAAABulous, over-the-top, mincing, showtune loving sissy-boy is, in my mind, a negative portrayl of gay men. I watched a couple episodes and practically screamed at the TV "Haven't we moved beyond this?"

And everybody hooking up with everybody else in Torchwood just felt like a cheap gimmick to draw in viewers. (I had other personal preferences and prejudices that kept me away from the show after the first episode, however.)

DancingMaenid said:

What I like about Torchwood is that for the most part, sexuality wasn't an issue. Sometimes I like stories that specifically deal with "LGBTQ issues" (can't think of a better way to say it) or present realistic depictions of what it's like to be LGBTQ. And sometimes I like stories about being LGBTQ. But sometimes I just want to see characters living like everyone else.

It was refreshing for me that we could see Jack and Ianto kiss without being subjected to Ianto's Very Special Coming Out Episode. And I liked that Toshiko could hook up with a woman and have it be treated mostly the same as if she'd hooked up with a man. And I liked that Torchwood presented a setting where being LGBTQ didn't seem to be an issue at all.

I wish we had more entertainment like that.

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IAWTC. Sexuality on Torchwood was always shown as being fluid. I think all of the main characters (at least, those who worked inside Torchwood) were shown as bisexual, or at least had some sort of same-sex encounter.

BenPanced said:

That said, I'd rather shove needles in my eyes than watch Beautiful People. The FAAAAABulous, over-the-top, mincing, showtune loving sissy-boy is, in my mind, a negative portrayl of gay men. I watched a couple episodes and practically screamed at the TV "Haven't we moved beyond this?"

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And I love it for exactly this reason, that it makes macho queers scream in agony of being portrayed like that.

BenPanced said:

That said, I'd rather shove needles in my eyes than watch Beautiful People. The FAAAAABulous, over-the-top, mincing, showtune loving sissy-boy is, in my mind, a negative portrayl of gay men. I watched a couple episodes and practically screamed at the TV "Haven't we moved beyond this?"

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But Simon and Kylie are based on real-life-actual-persons Simon Doonan and his friend Biddie, as portrayed in Doonan's memoir. The show brings them forward to a different time period and changes some of the events, but the memoir depicts the kids as being exactly like that. In the fifties, in a really boring small town, without knowing they were gay, with no gay role models, and no cliched fabulous gay men to emulate.

For that reason, to me it's real. And I don't find it to be a negative portrayal at all--a big theme is Simon struggling to love himself and his family embracing him and standing up for him. Even Kylie's mom, who seems horrible and anti-gay and abusive, in the end defends him and his right to be himself.

JohnnyGottaKeyboard said:

Hmm... I know quite a few gay people and yet very few who are anything like Kurt. This could be the circles I move in, but well, there it is.



He seemed like an accurate depiction of the gay men I do know--pretty average rather than fabulous. And he took that depiction into a realm (scifi and fantasy) from which it is often excluded. I mean, my mother loved this show. That said, Torchwood was never my favorite show.

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I can see that. But, yeah, I've never met a Ianto and I've known more Kurts than I can count. We must be living in some really different circles. My circle, growing up and such, was not that large or open minded. I think appealing to stereotypes is one of the few ways an LGBT individual in a hostile environment is able to express their sexuality. When I traveled Central America I heard more extreme stories of masculine gays being targets of violent crimes where as the flamboyant type were more or less left to themselves.

Honestly, I didn't have a problem with Ianto's character as much as I did with story mechanics and plausibility in Torchwood. I enjoyed watching the show, though. So I won't say it's not entertaining. But I don't see the Buffy the Vampire Slayer comparison that people are always using.

Timmy said:

Honestly, I didn't have a problem with Ianto's character as much as I did with story mechanics and plausibility in Torchwood. I enjoyed watching the show, though. So I won't say it's not entertaining.

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I'd say that's perfectly fair. Torchwood was one of my favorite shows for a while, but yeah, it had problems.

BenPanced said:

That said, I'd rather shove needles in my eyes than watch Beautiful People. The FAAAAABulous, over-the-top, mincing, showtune loving sissy-boy is, in my mind, a negative portrayl of gay men. I watched a couple episodes and practically screamed at the TV "Haven't we moved beyond this?"

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I don't think that type of character, in itself, is bad. Actually, I'm kind of uncomfortable with the preference I see for more "heteronormative" gay characters, because sometimes, I get the impression that it's only okay to be gay as long if you look and act like a manly man or femme woman. I've had some people go so far as to blame people like me, who identify as queer and don't fit heteronormative standards for appearance, goals, etc. for being a "bad example."

I agree that stereotyping is bad. We should have a broad range of LGBTQ characters because there are lots of different LGBTQ people. But I think there should be room for people like Simon in the media, because people like Simon exist.

Maxinquaye said:

For the record, I agree. Despite the fact that Beautiful People is much more surreal, it's more realistic. I mean you actually have Kyle kill his abusive father, and this in an over-the-top sitcom shortly before swinging the feather boa dancing. You have Simon being dragged into a room to be physically assailted by the boy he has a crush on, in the same episode that de sings and dances on the roof with the same boy.

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I haven't seen all the episodes, but the impression I got from show was that a lot of the surreality came from Simon and Kylie's outlook on life, which is something I found really interesting.

I'm timid about weighing in further as I don't know anything about Beautiful People. But...

DancingMaenid said:

I don't think that type of character, in itself, is bad. Actually, I'm kind of uncomfortable with the preference I see for more "heteronormative" gay characters, because sometimes, I get the impression that it's only okay to be gay as long if you look and act like a manly man or femme woman. I've had some people go so far as to blame people like me, who identify as queer and don't fit heteronormative standards for appearance, goals, etc. for being a "bad example."

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DancingMaenid said:

I agree that stereotyping is bad. We should have a broad range of LGBTQ characters because there are lots of different LGBTQ people. But I think there should be room for people like Simon in the media, because people like Simon exist.

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I don't know where you get this impression as most of the depictions of gay people on popular shows in the states fall into the Kurt and Jack McFarland categories. And with Kurt especially he seems less like a stereotype to me and more like a straw man.

Timmy said:

I've never met a Ianto and I've known more Kurts than I can count.

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I doubt this is true (and partly my point). You've probably met many Iantos. To paraphrase Thoreau, I imagine the great mass of homosexuals anywhere on the planet lead lives of quiet heteronormativity (I'd even posit that a great many still marry members of the opposite sex). Seriously, if you, Kurt and Ianto were together in a room, who would garner all the attention?

I think this is partly due to the fact that there are so few paradigms for these people (Ianto types, which, typing, sounds overly broad and silly) to lead any other sort of life. Growing up I never saw any depiction (in literature, cinema or tv) even approximating the sort of man I turned out to be--at least none that weren't too subtle for my immature mind to decipher (I'm looking at you Messala!).

I'd suggest that rather than working on positive or negative, it's better for writers to be true to their books and characters.

I'm not a fan of didactic fiction.

JohnnyGottaKeyboard said:

I don't know where you get this impression as most of the depictions of gay people on popular shows in the states fall into the Kurt and Jack McFarland categories. And with Kurt especially he seems less like a stereotype to me and more like a straw man.

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I'm not talking so much about what types of characters there are as how people judge those characters. I agree that we need more characters like Ianto who aren't flamboyant. But I disagree that flamboyant characters are necessarily bad, especially in media targeted towards LGBT people (which Glee isn't so much). I think the biggest problem with them is that they're too often treated as comic relief and handled stereotypically.