Querying a project that's already been repped

Monlette

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I've seen conflicting information on this topic. What is the proper way to query a book that has already been shopped by an agent?

I know that at some point you will have to provide this information as well as the names of the editors who have seen it before you are signed, but do you disclose all this in a query, wait until the agent asks or makes an offer, or is the answer somewhere in between?

Obviously those editors are now used up, but since they've turned it down, they weren't the right editors anyway. Is it worse to have an agent dismiss you as damaged goods by revealing this too early? Or would it annoy them too much if you withheld this information until "the call."

Before you jump on the keyboard to pound out "shelve it and move on to something else." I can think of a few legitmate reasons why a shopped book might have a spark in it, such as its being dropped because its subject is not topical enough, only to have some trend hit and it's suddenly all the rage.
 

Guardian

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Either way the agent will learn that another person wanted to rep your book and then couldn't make that happen (is that right?) I'm not sure how that is much different than being rejected at the query letter stage over and over again and then finding someone who does believe in your project and wants to jump on it.

So maybe the question of putting it in the query or not relies on whether it clutters it up or not..

Edit: I don't think I understood the situation at first. Hopefully you can find an agent who is behind your book 110%.
 
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thothguard51

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Agents generally shop to the same editors, at the same publishers. There are only so many to go around. So if one agent had no success, the chances are a new agent is going to pass if they have this knowledge. And they should have this knowledge up front...

When my last agent could not sell my work, she gave me all the rejection emails and they were loaded with kind words and suggestions on how to improve. All suggested I resubmit if, I took their advice on how to fix the Writing. Did you last agent provide you with the rejection letters/emails. They are often times loaded with information on why they did not buy. With agents, they are generally more direct than with the author...

My suggestion, wait 6 months to a year before re querying the same manuscript.
 

Guardian

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If that is what shopped means really, and there is a limited amount of editors then your agent should really know who has already rejected it. Maybe even see if someone will be kind enough to tell you if there's something in particular that you could change to get a better chance of selling?

I don't know about how to put it in the query, but it should be upfront somehow so the agent knows what's going on.
 

DeadlyAccurate

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In my queries I said only that I left the agent on amicable terms. If they're even interested in the book enough to ask, almost all have asked whether it's been shopped. That's when I give them all the names and whether the editor ever responded or not.

Understand that the book might well be dead in the water until you've sold something else. I knew this but decided to query anyway. And I have had some who simply weren't interested or didn't think they could sell it because of that.
 

jclarkdawe

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You need to provide enough information in your query that either agents are told or have enough to ask.

Think about the alternative. They ask to read your manuscript, spending maybe five hours to do so (they'll probably spend more time). Then they find out it's been shopped and every editor that they thought possible has already seen it. How would you feel to have wasted five hours? Or more. Pissed would be about the mildest term for how I'd feel. I'd be telling every agent I'm friendly with about this lowlife that stole my time.

If you think there's been a change in the market since it was shopped, you can put that in the query, explaining why. But unless you have some real reason to believe editors might make a different determination, I'd move on to another book.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

Monlette

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Thank you everyone. Especially DeadlyAccurate for providing a voice of experience. I hope you don't mind if I use your words if I ever need to, though I'll include a count so they know if it been shopped to three editors or one hundred.

I could see how an agent would be ticked if they were furnished this information only after investing time and energy on the manuscript.

But I could also see them chuckling at an author who is naive enough to reveal such details during an introduction. ("She starts her pitch by revealing she's someone else's leftovers? Am I supposed to be flattered? What a rube - query FAIL!")
 

jclarkdawe

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But I could also see them chuckling at an author who is naive enough to reveal such details during an introduction. ("She starts her pitch by revealing she's someone else's leftovers? Am I supposed to be flattered? What a rube - query FAIL!")

If you can justify it, it is not a problem. For example, think about a query that opens like this hitting an agent's desk about sixty days ago:

My manuscript, MINER'S PERIL, was represented by B.S. Agent and went to various publishers, who loved the writing and the story, but found the premise of ten miners, buried a mile under the earth, could be rescued by drilling a tunnel down to them. However, in light of recent events in Chile, I think the premise just became a lot more marketable.

Think that would warrant a second look?

You've been through some editors. I have a manuscript in the same situation. I can either send it out on my own to smaller publishers, write it off as a lost cause, or make changes that make it different and workable. But I sure as hell would not send it out unless I could make the paragraph explaining what happened to the manuscript the previous time no longer matter. So unless I could come up with a paragraph that makes it compelling to the agent and not a laughing matter, then I wouldn't send it out. It had its chance at flight, went down in flames, and is not a salamander.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

 

Monlette

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But the trouble is that by the time the book goes to market, everyone will have forgotten the miners in Chile.

But say that you write a book about the Empress Theodora, and no publisher wanted to take a chance on it because no one had any idea who that was, but then Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie makes an announcement that her new film "Theodora: Whore, Empress, Saint" is to be released sometime in 2015 and the tabloids are already abuzz about who she will pick as her leading man.

Would you say:

Dear Real Name,

A couple years back, I wrote a novel about Empress Theodora. With the recent buzz about Angelina Jolie's latest film project, I think that such a manuscript might be of interest to you.

.... Insert standard query wordage here ....

This manuscript was previously represented by Inoveris Head, though we have parted completely and amicably back when this subject was lesser known in 2008.
 
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thothguard51

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Mono...

You are talking about hypothetical possibilities. Sure, in this case anything can happen. But as an agent, I would want to know why the book did not sell in the first place. Before investing time and money I would more than likely contact the previous agent to find out why he/she could not sell the work.

In the case you describe above...editors are pretty knowledgeable on who is who and what is what, and the film more than likely came from a previous book adaptation.

As I asked before...do you have the previous rejection letters from the editors your agent submitted to. They will give you a hint on why the agent was unable to sell. Once you figure that out, then you can decide on if it was the work, or the lack of push by the agent...
 

ishtar'sgate

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I've seen conflicting information on this topic. What is the proper way to query a book that has already been shopped by an agent?

I don't know about the proper way but when my agent and I parted ways I never mentioned him at all, I simply made sure I didn't contact any of the publishers he'd shopped it to.
 

jclarkdawe

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But say that you write a book about the Empress Theodora, and no publisher wanted to take a chance on it because no one had any idea who that was, but then Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie makes an announcement that her new film "Theodora: Whore, Empress, Saint" is to be released sometime in 2015 and the tabloids are already abuzz about who she will pick as her leading man.

Would you say:

Dear Real Name,

A couple years back, I wrote a novel about Empress Theodora. With the recent buzz about Angelina Jolie's latest film project, I think that such a manuscript might be of interest to you.

.... Insert standard query wordage here ....

This manuscript was previously represented by Inoveris Head, though we have parted completely and amicably back when this subject was lesser known in 2008.

As long as you have a legitimate reason for expecting a different result this time than last time, I think you have a reason for trying and won't offend agents by trying. But if you don't have something you can point to, then you shouldn't do it. Personally, I'd put all this stuff up in the top paragraph. I'd want to be upfront about everything.

And I should point out that the obvious question is why aren't you going back to the old agent? (I don't care or need an answer, but if I received something like this, that's the question that would be in my mind.)

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe
 
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Monlette

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As long as you have a legitimate reason for
And I should point out that the obvious question is why aren't you going back to the old agent? (I don't care or need an answer, but if I received something like this, that's the question that would be in my mind.)

Why would you want to go back to an agent who signed you, only to hobble your career by not landing you a deal? It would be like calling up an ex to get back together after you've won the lottery.

People in the industry already recognize that authors and agents part ways all the time for all sorts of reasons, and don't hold it against them.

Some agents are good at spotting new talent and editing manuscripts, but bad with contracts. Many are great at contracts, but don't work with unpublished authors. Some are good at both, and you may sign with one of these, but then you may get all call from Dan Brown's agent offering to put the weight of his agency behind your next project...

It's not personal. It's business. If Dan Brown kept the agent who got him his first contract, we'd have probably never heard of him.
 

jclarkdawe

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If your argument is that you had a good agent, but that a change in circumstances (such as a movie coming out) would cause a different result, then the question is obvious.

If your argument is that your agent sucked and a different agent would have had a different result, then a change of circumstances makes no difference. And you're pretty much dead in the water.

If your argument is that your agent sucked and a change of circumstances, then I'd be inclined to believe that the previous statement is more likely.

Yes, I'm well aware that writers change agents for various reasons. And I'd listen to your reasoning, but this is what you'd have to be convincing me of.

I'm somewhat in the same boat that you are in. THE NEXT STEP went to several editors. My agent provided me with copies of those rejections. It's clear to me that it didn't succeed because the writing isn't good enough. I did a drastic rewrite, and it's still missing, but I'm hoping that sometime I'll figure out what went wrong.

You state in your original post that "Obviously those editors are now used up, but since they've turned it down, they weren't the right editors anyway." I suppose I could argue the same thing, but I won't. I assume any editor that was willing to look at THE NEXT STEP and spend the time has a serious interest in publishing it. I will assume that my writing just didn't quite cut it.

You then state a change that would make your book marketable. That's a different situation. If your only reasoning is that it went to the wrong editors, you had better figure out why they were the wrong editors.

But pick which one it is.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

thothguard51

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Why would you want to go back to an agent who signed you, only to hobble your career by not landing you a deal? It would be like calling up an ex to get back together after you've won the lottery.

This does not make sense. There are lots of reasons agents can not sell an authors work. Sometimes its the writing, or the story, or just does not fit current trends. How do you figure the agent hobbled your career? Not all stories sell and that too is a fact. Is there more to this?

People in the industry already recognize that authors and agents part ways all the time for all sorts of reasons, and don't hold it against them.

True, but agents are human just like anyone else and curious. Word also gets around...

Some agents are good at spotting new talent and editing manuscripts, but bad with contracts. Many are great at contracts, but don't work with unpublished authors. Some are good at both, and you may sign with one of these, but then you may get all call from Dan Brown's agent offering to put the weight of his agency behind your next project...

And some writers are good at weaving words but suck at pacing and plot development. What does any of this have to do with the fact that the story you presented has already been turned down recently? Presenting Straw-man facts does not make the acceptance of a recently rejected submission any easier to shop around.

It's not personal. It's business. If Dan Brown kept the agent who got him his first contract, we'd have probably never heard of him.

Yes, its business and if an agent has already shopped the manuscript at the big six, (Just using that as an example), then what makes you think another agent is going to have better success with the same editors that will be looking at the work for a second time?

Monlette,

WHY was your previous agent unable to sell your manuscript if its so perfect that you feel another agent will be more successful.

Do you feel your last agent was incompetent?

What did the editors who read you work comment on. Surely they explained to him/her what the issues were on why they were passing, even if it had nothing to do with your writing but more of a house issue. Even if you do not want to say here, and I can understand this may be the issue, you should think about what was said. I find it hard to believe the agent would not have given you the rejection emails or letter when you two separated. That is generally part of the contract between agent and writer...

Other than that...you seem to have your mind made up that someone else is going to be able to sell the same manuscript that was rejected because they are a better agent. Not sure what more any of us can say...

No offense...
 
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Monlette

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Monlette,
WHY was your previous agent unable to sell your manuscript if its so perfect that you feel another agent will be more successful.

Show me where I said anything about a perfect manscript.

Do you feel your last agent was incompetent?

I have no last agent. I'm speaking in hypotheticals because I've recently read conflicting information on this topic on an agent blog.

The advice was not to mention you had a prior agent, because the agent you are querying will think you are just trying to show off. But elsewhere it states to mention all of the editors who have seen the draft in the query letter. It seems you're to say: This is my novel -- oh and by the way -- it's already been submitted to A, B, C, and D. To me that would certainly seem just as "boastful" as claiming you had a prior agent.

But suppose this hypothetical agent IS incompetant. There are incompetent agents out there and I'd like to know if previous agent is the kiss of death. So a incompetant agent would certainly fit in well with the scenario.

What did the editors who read you work comment on. Surely they explained to him/her what the issues were on why they were passing, even if it had nothing to do with your writing but more of a house issue.
Even if you do not want to say here, and I can understand this may be the issue, you should think about what was said.

Suppose the agent pitched "Twilight" to the editor for "Tales of The Body Thief" because they both have Vampires, when actually their audiences are completely different?

(Or "Garfield" appealing to fans of "Barbarella" appealing to fans of "Spiderman" because they are all comic strip adaptations.)

No offense...

Why would I be offended? I'm just trying to look before I leap. I'm asking because I DON'T know it all. My interest in this question is purely intellectual. The manuscript you think I'd getting worked up about doesn't exist. Yet.

But it's telling that you are making the argument that any fallout between an agent and writer must be owing to a lack of skill on the writer's part.

So answer me this... if you dare... if the writing is too flawed or the platform is too weak for the project to be viable, then why did the agent take it on in the first place? Why waste resources trying to sell a doomed manuscript?

These efforts cost the agent money, which he or she will not recoup unless they bear fruit? Could it be that the agent -- gasp -- exercised poor judgement? [Cue dramatic hedgehog] So why must this mistake be that they thought the manuscript was better than it was?
 

Terie

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You know, like most else in writing, the answer is 'it depends'. Since a decision like this would depend on quite a lot of variables, it's pretty hard to discuss in a hypothetical sense...as we see.

In general, the advice would be pretty simple: if a writer parts company with an agent who shopped a manuscript, they'd be using a new manuscript, and once they secured a new agent, they would then mention the older manuscript.

There are dozens of reasons to do something different. So trying to come up with a conclusive answer to a hypothetical question like this is probably an exercise in futility.
 
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jclarkdawe

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Originally Posted by thothguard51
Monlette,
WHY was your previous agent unable to sell your manuscript if its so perfect that you feel another agent will be more successful.
Show me where I said anything about a perfect manscript. The implication in this thread is that you think you have a perfect manuscript. This is a perfectly reasonable conclusion based upon what you've been saying.

Do you feel your last agent was incompetent?
I have no last agent. I'm speaking in hypotheticals because I've recently read conflicting information on this topic on an agent blog. Which if I had known, I wouldn't have responded to this thread. One of the reasons there is conflicting information on this subject is because each situation is different and needs to be dealt with differently. The other is because people keep coming up with hypotheticals where they keep twisting the fact pattern to prove whatever point they want.

The advice was not to mention you had a prior agent, because the agent you are querying will think you are just trying to show off. But elsewhere it states to mention all of the editors who have seen the draft in the query letter. It seems you're to say: This is my novel -- oh and by the way -- it's already been submitted to A, B, C, and D. To me that would certainly seem just as "boastful" as claiming you had a prior agent. It's not being boastful, it's giving fair warning there is a significant difficulty. Which you would probably better understand if you had ever been in this situation.

But suppose this hypothetical agent IS incompetant. There are incompetent agents out there and I'd like to know if previous agent is the kiss of death. So a incompetant agent would certainly fit in well with the scenario. Incompetent agents do not get your manuscript to good editors. And you can check out who the editors are that read your manuscript. Your hypothetical seems to be incompetent agent finds incompetent editors to send the manuscript to. You put enough incompetents in here and you can prove anything.

What did the editors who read you work comment on. Surely they explained to him/her what the issues were on why they were passing, even if it had nothing to do with your writing but more of a house issue.
Even if you do not want to say here, and I can understand this may be the issue, you should think about what was said.
Suppose the agent pitched "Twilight" to the editor for "Tales of The Body Thief" because they both have Vampires, when actually their audiences are completely different?

(Or "Garfield" appealing to fans of "Barbarella" appealing to fans of "Spiderman" because they are all comic strip adaptations.) But why would an editor waste their time reading something that isn't going to work for his or her publishing house? As I said, if you include enough incompetents here, you can prove anything. Real world is editors don't waste their time reading something that has no hope of publication. Agents who send them that sort of stuff are ruthlessly removed from their lists of contacts.

No offense...
Why would I be offended? I'm just trying to look before I leap. I'm asking because I DON'T know it all. My interest in this question is purely intellectual. The manuscript you think I'd getting worked up about doesn't exist. Yet. Again, if I had known this, I wouldn't have bothered to reply.

But it's telling that you are making the argument that any fallout between an agent and writer must be owing to a lack of skill on the writer's part. No, neither of us are arguing that. We're working from your fake set of facts. Sure you can find incompetent agents, but they are not going to get your manuscript in front of good editors. Which is the problem that you stated existed.

So answer me this... if you dare... if the writing is too flawed or the platform is too weak for the project to be viable, then why did the agent take it on in the first place? Why waste resources trying to sell a doomed manuscript? Because this is an art and not a science. Just like a lot of other things in this world, you take your chances and pay the price. Sometimes you're right and sometimes you're wrong. I've taken contingency cases that went belly up. It happens. If I knew all and saw all, I'd go to the horse track, and spend a pleasant afternoon betting horses and winning. But I've never met anyone who knew all and saw all. Lots of people who thought the did, but not one in actuality. And to carry your argument out to its logical conclusion, why don't all agents and editors only take on best sellers? Because a mid-list is also flawed, because it isn't a best seller.

These efforts cost the agent money, which he or she will not recoup unless they bear fruit? Could it be that the agent -- gasp -- exercised poor judgement? [Cue dramatic hedgehog] So why must this mistake be that they thought the manuscript was better than it was? I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here. All I expect an agent to do is get my manuscript to the best editors for it that they can think of. From there, the editor might not like it, the publisher might not like it, the reviewers might not like it, and/or the public might not like it. But that's not the agent fault. You take your chances and sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.

Next time tell people that something is hypothetical.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe
 
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Theo81

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So answer me this... if you dare... if the writing is too flawed or the platform is too weak for the project to be viable, then why did the agent take it on in the first place? Why waste resources trying to sell a doomed manuscript?

These efforts cost the agent money, which he or she will not recoup unless they bear fruit? Could it be that the agent -- gasp -- exercised poor judgement? [Cue dramatic hedgehog] So why must this mistake be that they thought the manuscript was better than it was?

Reading between the lines (because I'm surmise your passion for this indicates a less than purely hypothetical situation) it sounds like you have an MS you think is better than the representation it was given. If this is the case, unless there has been a topical shift or you have done some major re-working, slide it to one side. At a most basic level, you would be saying to an agent, "Here is my book. This guy couldn't sell it but I believe you can." If you want to query it anyway, I believe you should say it up front; an agent who walks away from your book for that reason is no good to you.
If you manage to secure representation on a second book, then is the time to bring this first one back out and try and find a publisher for it. There are plenty of authors who have done this.

And I dare - we make mistakes. We think something will be popular or easy to sell, it isn't. We don't always notice the flaws up front. Go and ask a buyer in a gift shop at the begining of their season what they think their 10 best sellers will be; one of these will sell half of what the buyer expects them to. It happens. People are fickle.
 
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Monlette

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Reading between the lines (because I'm surmise your passion for this indicates a less than purely hypothetical situation) it sounds like you have an MS you think is better than the representation it was given.

No, my passion is because I think a person should have a right to ask a question like mine in a forum like this one without being called names like lowlife, incompetant, etc...

If this is the case, unless there has been a topical shift or you have done some major re-working, slide it to one side. At a most basic level, you would be saying to an agent, "Here is my book. This guy couldn't sell it but I believe you can." If you want to query it anyway, I believe you should say it up front; an agent who walks away from your book for that reason is no good to you.
If you manage to secure representation on a second book, then is the time to bring this first one back out and try and find a publisher for it. There are plenty of authors who have done this.

And I dare - we make mistakes. We think something will be popular or easy to sell, it isn't. We don't always notice the flaws up front. Go and ask a buyer in a gift shop at the begining of their season what they think their 10 best sellers will be; one of these will sell half of what the buyer expects them to. It happens. People are fickle.

Thank you. This was the information I was looking for. You've summed it up nicely.
 

jclarkdawe

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No, my passion is because I think a person should have a right to ask a question like mine in a forum like this one without being called names like lowlife, incompetant, etc...

You absolutely have the right to ask this question on this forum, but you also have an obligation to let people know it's a hypothetical. I don't do hypotheticals. I thought you had a real problem and thought I could help. Playing "what if" games does not amuse me. It wastes my time.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

Monlette

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You absolutely have the right to ask this question on this forum, but you also have an obligation to let people know it's a hypothetical. I don't do hypotheticals. I thought you had a real problem and thought I could help.

You thought you could help by calling me names while I'm heartbroken and devastated? I'm glad I asked before I was in a situation where your help would have rendered me inconsolable.

Playing "what if" games does not amuse me. It wastes my time.

Some people like to learn from their mistakes before they make them.

I am sorry to everyone that I didn't make it clearer that this was a hypothetic. I mean that sincerely.

I still think it is a worthy question, and I've gotten a lot of good infomation. Thanks everyone.
 

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A Real example of this hypothetical...

For those still reading who are actually wondering about being in the real situation hypothetically described...

Two years ago, I jumped too soon and accepted representation for a topical memoir even though the offering agent has zero experience in that genre...(he'd really only repped YA). We ended the relationship after he sent out to 12 editors with no go.

I then reworked proposal and sample chapters and queried new agents, and had a really strong response (8 interested, three offers)...which I took as strong viability for the concept.

On the very first offer (which came off the query alone) I did not give the submission history and sent the whole proposal and chapters, let them read it, and get enthusiastic. Then I told them the sub history and they were so pissed off they broke off the discussion.

Lesson learned.

With the remaining interested agents, four in total, I told sub history before they read the complete proposal. All four still wanted to read it (although they acknowledged it would be harder and were clearly not thrilled). Ultimately three offered representation.

The agent who I chose said it would matter most that we revised the proposal further (which we worked together to do over six months) and that their agency's name on the proposal would be sufficient to get editors interest. This agent went to some of the editors/houses who had it before from previous agent and explained the improvements, and got more reads. In two cases the previous editors were gone and so it was a fresh sub at those houses. In the end, in August, it sold modestly well. I felt this result had nothing to do with the previous attempt to sell it. But more the relative riskiness of the subject and approach and the soft market.

So my advice...don't put sub history in the query for the whole world to read, but do tell a potential new agent the sub history before they read full proposal and pages.

For what it's worth.