Diggory Press

It's cool

Aconite - I love constructive criticism. The friends I have that always play nice-nice dont get my ms's to proof and critique - I prefer colleagues who give it to me in my face - that makes for stronger writing - especially in non-fiction. Anyhow I did personalize each email and checked to be sure that each agency that I submitted to handled the kind of work I did. Some agencies actually have different agents for different types of work. I have students that aid me in my research for part-time cash and they sometimes do the hunting and sorting for me but I always check their work. I did a targeted query and had it critiqued also by the folks at the English and Creative Writing departments.

I'm just trying to say that I cover all the bases the best I know how and then proceed from there. I guess you could say that I spammed in a way - even though each was personalized - I did send them all with in 2 days. I still emphasize that I can't wait for this particular work to sit in a slush pile for over a month at a particular agency before I send it to another - and then once I find an agent wait for the same slush piles at the publishers.

I forget who mentioned the Pope but I would venture to guess that most of the authors that had their bios out on the shelves right away were journalists, established writers, and the kinds of folks that have ready access to a publisher. Certainly no unknown authors had a bio on the Pope streaming off the press a few weeks after he died. By the time they look at a first time author on such a subject it's old news and the market is flooded.

Neurofizz - It is not a text as far as the book I'm releasing goes. I do have plans to do a curriculum package if the market shows an interest. By then, if it goes that route, I'll have a traditional publisher work it.

On spending money to make money - you do sometimes - you also have to do your homework. I almost got it from PA - if it was not for you folks I would have - Thank You again.

Anyhow with Diggory I only have to sell 108 at retail of the 200 I am ordering to make my money back on all the fees and my cost for the 200 books. I would order more but my cost does not go down until I order 1000 at a time. I'd rather take part of the profit from the first 200 and get another 200. If they go faster than I can keep up then I'll get 1000. I will have 2 weeks after I get the first shipment before my book goes up on all the Amazons (US, UK, Germany, France, and Japan) as well as B & N, Borders, and all the others. It will also be in November's Ingram catalog that goes out to 20,000 stores.

As for over priced the printer's cut for fulfillment is 5.31. My cost is 3.53 per book. I make more selling them myself but I'm pricing a 144 page 5.5X8.5 perfect bound soft cover for $14 which is not over priced for a list price for non-fiction when compared to the nearest competition. I stand to get a little better than 10% at the deepest discount and $10.22 in profit for each copy I sell myself. Not a bad return when you are only looking at a $260 fee for the whole package. It starts at $50 setup fee then $90 for ISBN and distribution to all the places I mentioned above. It was $20 each for back cover text and a photo I supply on the front and $60 for the Ingram's advert in their catalog.

Elwyn - Great Idea Thank You! I did not think of the magazine route - I'm on it now!

The book is titled "Come Together: Creation and Evolution Joined" and it has two new theories: "The Scientific Theory of Intentional and Intelligent Design"
and "The Theory of Intelligently Designed Human Evolution"

The issue with the time being critical is that Bush just stared a new angle to the old Creation vs Evolution debate when he said that he supports teaching Intelligent Design in schools. He gave my book a platform and I provide the theories behind it. I have been working for years on these very issues and I began putting all my research together in book form for consumption by folks of any background several months ago. And here it is - a perfect opening.

Gosh this was long. Sorry but I am an author too.

Epicman

Epicman said:

Aconite - I love constructive criticism.

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Me, too. How else does anyone learn?

Knowing that, may I offer a bit more? You say you personalized each query, and wrote "a" targeted query letter. I'm not sure what you mean by personalizing; we may be talking about different things. What I'm talking about, when I say "personalized, targeted query," is one written specifically for each agency or publisher you submit to, mentioning other books they have agented or published similar to yours and whatever else makes them the perfect company to take on your book. While you can work from a master letter to create variations, you have to do your research before you start sending out anything. Given that PA was on your list, I'm not sure your initial level of research was as in-depth as you need to go for this part of the process.

I did a targeted query and had it critiqued also by the folks at the English and Creative Writing departments.

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If you've got access to people who submit work to commercial publishers, that's even better. Writer friends with degrees in English and journalism at different universities tell me they learned nothing at all about the business end of getting published. (Probably because their instructors didn't know anything about it.)

I still emphasize that I can't wait for this particular work to sit in a slush pile for over a month at a particular agency before I send it to another - and then once I find an agent wait for the same slush piles at the publishers.

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Having an agent means you bypass the slush piles at publishers'. It's one of the reasons you want an agent. And yes, you can wait a month--the time you spend there will be made up in the time you don't have to waste trying to get marketing and distribution set up. Think of it this way: you can start driving from New York to California because you don't have time to sit at the airport, or you can sit, wait for a plane, and not get started on the trip as early as you would if you started driving, but end up being in California much sooner than if you drove.

If time really is of the essence for your work, agents and publishers will see that. They want to maximize their profits, too, and it's not to their advantage to leave a hot-topic book to get stale. Remember, they make their living from selling books. They're looking for books they can sell, and when they find them, they're going to market and distribute them in whatever way is going to sell the most. They have a lot of experience in how to do that; you don't. They will always be able to sell a book better than you can, to more people than you can reach.

And, you may not want to hear this, but it doesn't seem that your topic is so urgent that your manuscript can't wait to go the conventional route. It isn't necessary to be the first book on the topic to hit the market; what matters is being the book people want to buy on the topic. It won't matter if you were the first if someone else's book comes out a few months later, is promoted ten ways to Sunday, and leaves yours in the dust.

I forget who mentioned the Pope but I would venture to guess that most of the authors that had their bios out on the shelves right away were journalists, established writers, and the kinds of folks that have ready access to a publisher.

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Some, perhaps, but nothing beats being in the right place at the right time. I'd venture to say that most of them had their manuscripts nearly completed, just waiting for the conclusion and ready to submit as soon as he died, but I doubt all of them already had publisher connections.

Best of luck, whichever route you go.

Elwyn said:

The director of the movie Lord of the Rings exhausted all possibilities but one, a tiny unknown studio that took a chance – and ended up reaping huge benefits!

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I know this is getting seriously off topic, but are you entirely sure?

The "tiny unknown studio," if you mean WingNut Films, was the same studio that had produced Peter Jackson's five previous films. If you mean New Line Cinema -- they're hardly small or unknown. They've been producing movies -- hundreds of them -- for decades, and distributing movies before that. They distributed Gone With the Wind in 1939 for example. (The other producer was Tolkien Enterprises -- and it's no surprise they were involved.)

==============

Self- and vanity-published books on evolution/creationism/intelligent design are almost a genre in themselves right now.

Consider:

Darwin's Design Dilemma: How 20th Century Science supports the account of creation in Genesis by Lowell E. Coker, PhD.One Moment in Eternity: Human Evolution by Eugene Minard, M.D.Understanding the Creation/evolution Controversy: A Scientific Evaluation Consistent with Both Modern Science and the Bible by Eugene AshbyWorld History and the Eonic Effect: Civilization, Darwinism, and Theories of Evolution by John Landon=================

Here's what you can do. Go over to Amazon. Put this into the Advanced Search Box:You'll get around 8,000 hits. Go through those for books that look similar to yours that weren't self or vanity published (hint -- if a publisher has only one book out, it's self-published).

Those should be the publishers you approach.

Compare the sales ranks of Intelligent Design or Evolution? Why the Origins of Life and the Evolution of Molecular Knowledge Imply Design by Stuart W. Pullen (Intelligent Design Press, February 2005, self-published. Amazon sales rank 228,638) with The Evolution-Creation Struggle by Michael Ruse (Harvard University Press, May 2005, Amazon sales rank 40,983).

While Amazon ranks don't translate well to knowable sales, and they're just one dipstick among many, you'll notice that Mr. Ruse's book is selling an order of magnitude better than Mr. Pullen's book at Amazon.

==========

Update: I went to look at Lulu, and found Creation Studies: Evidence of Design by John Loiodice. That has a Lulu sales rank of 7451, which sounds impressive until you notice that a sales rank of 7275 equates to three sold.

Here is what I have decided based upon some very

valuable input. Thanks to all.

I will do the self pub route to start. I have a non-exclusive contract and Diggory is fairly unknown around here. I will send press releases to all the major media starting with the biggies and will offer a review copy to any that wishes to have one - Diggory said they'd pack and ship them for me and that if it takes off - a lot of review requests from the heavies - they would kick in and send them at their expense. For now they will charge me 3.31 for each one and they would take care of shipping.

I will also submit my ms to the Oklahoma University Press and some of the other university presses. I will submit to the bigger publishers too.
If I can show several thousand sales in my local market - Oklahoma City - which is vast in a short time perhaps a publisher will jump all over it. By the way, Meadows Press is the parent company of Diggory and they will consider my work also when I send it in - who knows?

I think that the critical time factor will be realized and understood by a few publishers - once I prove myself here locally. Dont forget about the single mom in Atlanta that self pubbed and got picked up with a $250,000 advance for the self pubbed book plus two followups. I have listed "Coming Soon" projects I am working on in my book. I am also developing a curriculum package to include teacher's guides, student study guides, and test question banks for a followup to my book as well as two followups and two reference works on the history of science and the history of biology.

Elwyn - I greatly appreciate your interest.

Logos - they show a jump from 200 to 1000 with nothing in between.

James - I spent about 20 hours total on Amazon over 3 days doing just as you suggested and here are the main points on which my work differs:

1) Most of these works, I'd estimate over 90%, are extremely technical in nature (like A Biochemical Challenge to Evolution) and geared to a peer or expert audience. My work is simplistic for the masses - I had several people with non-science backgrounds including a 10th grader and high school senior - review my work and fill out questionaires as well as spend a few hours with each to gather exactly what they needed for a complete understanding of my concepts. I reworked and ended up with experts in the field. I also did the same with peers and science oriented people to confirm accuracy. My goal was not to confuse the layperson and not be boring to the experts. One of my main contentions is that all the debate is based upon sensationalized translations of the experts' technical language - which is exactly what the vast amount of this genra consists of. My purpose is to incite a universal understanding among the masses.

2) Again, the vast majority of these technically written books is an argument for one side or the other - I combine them in a way that is acceptable to both sides to put the debate to bed.

3) The far ends of each side is addressed specifically to bring all into agreement. And my greatest challenge: to satisfy scientists, Christians, and the separation of Church and State advocates. I believe I have done just that in a work anyone can read and understand - a unique approach.

I asked the scientists if they felt my theories were sound - I did get a lot of 'why didnt I think of that'. But the key here is that I had none that could refute any of the theories scientifically.

I then asked devout Christians if they felt all that I theorized was supported by the Bible. They conceded the point and only a few challenged a few points but when I asked them to Biblically defend their dissent all conceded that they could not based solely upon scripture without including translations of them.

I then consulted with atheists on the neutrality of the wording of my theories. Specifically could they find any issues of separation of Church and State and would they object to their children being taught my concepts within public schools. I also recieved no dissent.

I am not on an ego trip. I am a Christian and a scientist who has struggled with these issues for a long time and spent years researching them. No I am not a scientologist - just a born again Christian who is also a scientist - Biologist to be more specific. My other areas of study are chemistry, physics, psychology, history, and adult education - that is the master's degree I am working on currently. I simply have found new theories just like Darwin, Einstein, and many others throughout history. Society is ready NOW for this.

Dave - www.diggory.com is the link for them - check them out and I will give full progress reports as I move through their system to aid any others. According to my research and that of Logos this outfit is lower cost overall when compared to Lulu if you wish to sell your works. the authors price is lower and the retail price - I choose my own - can be comparable with other big house publishers - in my case even lower. They are owned by Meadow Press and also look at all Diggory submissions for possible offers from their traditional publisher.

***** I do need some help with one question: I can get a 6x9 for the same fees, costs per copy, etc. as a 5.5x8.5. Any detriment to going with 6x9 as far as the distributers and sellers are concerned. I come up with a four page shorter count at 6x9 which will lower my cost per copy by .06 and the same for the fulfillment price .06 per copy savings. I think a slightly bigger book, lower cost per unit, higer profit, etc. The only downside I can think of is if the distributers and sellers have any issues - does anyone know?

Thank You all so much,
Epicman

I will also be listed on all the amazons globally, all the book stores online sites

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People seem not to realise that having a book on Amazon or another online bookstore means nothing. How are you going to get people to actually GO to that book's Amazon page? There are hundreds, probably thousands, of books on Amazon which are just that: they are there, but nobody is aware of it, and nobody ever sees them, much less buys them.
Whatever - I do wish you luck. Interesting topic.

Aruna

Aruna

Hello to you.

How are you going to get people to actually GO to that book's Amazon page?

Advertising - for free. Press releases targeted at the major newspapers and TV in the major cities.

I do wish you luck.

Me to you too. Thank You.

Interesting topic.

If you think so now wait till you read the book! "Come Together: Creation and Evolution Joined"

Epicman

Epicman it is www.diggorypress.com not www.diggory.com! They do do a sliding scale if you ask them to give you a quote on 250/300/400 or whatever you want - ask them!!!

Re: your book, I remember reading something a few years ago in 'The New Scientist' magazine (forgive me if I have it muddled a little, it was a long time ago and I am not a scientist) about how secular scientists were believing they found the common genetic link for all humankind in Africa - something to do with the DNA which made it possible for all colours to be descended from just this one 'person' and I believe they called it 'Mother Eve' or something?? Am I remembering wrong...maybe..but it sure was interesting!

re amazon sales ranking:

Compare the sales ranks of Intelligent Design or Evolution? Why the Origins of Life and the Evolution of Molecular Knowledge Imply Design by Stuart W. Pullen (Intelligent Design Press, February 2005, self-published. Amazon sales rank 228,638) with The Evolution-Creation Struggle by Michael Ruse (Harvard University Press, May 2005, Amazon sales rank 40,983).

While Amazon ranks don't translate well to knowable sales, and they're just one dipstick among many, you'll notice that Mr. Ruse's book is selling an order of magnitude better than Mr. Pullen's book at Amazon.

That is not necessarily true. It would only really make a differance if Ruse's book was under say 10,000 ranking. All it says that Ruse's book has sold a copy or two more recently than Pullen on amazon. Next week (or whenever) Pullen sells a copy it could jump ahead of Ruse. Amazon go by RECENT sales not by cumalative sales to date.

I know a pod author who has yet to make any ranking on amazon who has already sold 600 copies of his Christian book since it came out in June.

Like I said, looks like you've already made your decision. I do hope you'll drop back by in a year and let us know how it's working for you.

Epicman said:

over 40 literary agents and 12 publishers that take email queries/proposals two weeks ago. The results:

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Two weeks, and 40 agents, and you're giving up already? If you're so impatient, I guess publishing is not for you (unless you publish all your books POD/Vanity).

It took me more than 65 queries/partials/full and 10 months to get a deal... the point is, if your ms. is sellable, and if you're right -- that it would sell many copies because there's no competition and it appeals to a lot of people, then you should just keep trying legit venues and some day someone will buy. Don't waste your time and money in POD/vanity.

But... Good luck anyway.

Epicman said:

Advertising - for free. Press releases targeted at the major newspapers and TV in the major cities.

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Press releases are not free advertising. And just because you send them press releases doesn't mean they're going to write or do a story about it. And even if they do write a story about, it's hardly advertising.

There's a reason why people spend millions in advertising...

What other kind of free advertising are you doing? How targeted are you? I mean, a normal Joe Blow on the street is not going to be interested in a book about creationism/intelligent design, no matter how many commercials he sees...

Also something about amazon rankings: they fail to count in amazon marketplace sellers. So for example if Ruse's book does not have great discount terms or is not widely available through certain distributors networks then many of the marketplace sellers will not be heavily discounting it so most of the punters will be buying it direct off amazon.

However if Pullen's book is discounting more favorably/has better or even differant distribution channels then it is possible that marketplace sellers are selling it much cheaper than amazon. Therefore many more punters will be buying it on amazon marketplace than the previous book and therefore Pullen's book could be selling many more than Ruse's but you would never know by amazon's rankings.

I know some books that have yet to recieve a ranking on amazon have sold quite a number via amazon marketplace.

Re Elwyn, Epicman:

Look, it's Captain Lemming! And his sidekick, Captain Lemming!

Have a good time, guys.

Hi Elwyn,

Sorry that I helped drag this thread off course!

Drop me a PM when the book finally comes out. I'll see if I can buy a copy for my father. I'd hate to guess whether he'll agree or disagree with your theories, but we'll enjoy the discussions on the subject ...

Good luck again,

Mac.
(PS: Hint: Link it in with a reference to Hebrew Astrology and you'll have him agreeing with you!)

James D. Macdonald said:

Whatever piece of gear was supposed to keep out stowaways clearly wasn't functioning. He should have unbolted it and thrown it out the airlock.

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Darn straight. Along with all the bedding, cabinet doors, crockery, cleaning supplies, and nonessential cover plates. And the bathroom sink. And any piece of gear necessary for takeoff but not landing.

And by the way, Epicman? You're doomed. It's not going to work out the way you imagine.

I think it's hasty and unfair to say he's doomed. You do not know that. Epicman seems to have a good sphere of influence (ie: on his college campus) and an interesting topic with a unique selling point (ie: aimed at the masses). He is NOT forking out thousands of dollars in advance, and he is going with an ethical publisher, who are also the cheapest in the industry (www.diggorypress.com) and who I know do a good job and can recommend to anyone thinking of self-publishing.

If Epicman prices reaslistically then he'll do OK. Look even if Epicman only sells 500 that he says he can on campus that is hardly failure is it....hardly doomed. He's never going to sell as well as if he were with Ransom House but he can still do alright, and there is the chance he may get picked up by one of the biggies. OK only a slender chance, but still a chance.

I have self published 3 books. 2 were by litho printing. One has sold just over 10,000, the other 8,000 (they both still sell) and the 3rd this year (which I published pod with Diggory Press) is selling well already. No agents or publishers would touch it (even with my track record) but all 3 sell well. 3 books that would still be in my dusty old files if I did not self publish. I am not a millionaire but I am happy with this....

I say to any author thinking of self-publishing, don't pay mega-bucks to get published, go with someone like Diggory Press (or even Lulu) - you are risking very little capital anyway which you will quickly recoup (even if you have no friends or relatives to buy off you) so do it!!!

However, the wildly hopeful proponents of that idea refuse to listen to anyone with actual experience otherwise.

That is rather patronising when I (and some others here) do have actual experience otherwise. My head is not in the clouds, I have been self-publishing for over 10 years. I know its joys and pitfalls.

I have never claimed Epicman or anyone else is going to do as well as if he were regularly published. I have never claimed he's going to get on the Jay Leno show. What I have said though is that he is hardly doomed. And there is the possibility he may do very well. I have done well and others too that I know have done well. I was trying to encourage writers to launch out and self-publish as it can work. Not brilliantly perhaps, but nonetheless reasonably.

My point is my three self published books that I have all made good money on would never have been published by anyone else and I would:

a) still be unpublished
b) think that my work is crap and no-one wants it.
C) have less money in the bank than I do

I have proved other publishers wrong for not taking my work on, I have a loyal fan base, earned considerable money over the years and proved self-publishing can work. And I am confident I am an OK writer.

I would never encourage any and every author to print litho. A previous post of mine here told of the many self publishing authors I know who still have unsold stock in every corner of their houses. But now with print on demand and its affordability, I do not think there is a good reason NOT to self-publish (unless you are a total illiterate or you are on a tiny income and it would be stealing the bread from your children's mouths.)

Providing anyone does not invest a large amount of capital and buy hundreds of books (as is now possible with pod with the publishers I have previously mentioned), most authors would recoup their small initial investment within a realtively short time. They would also have the joy of seeing their work in print and getting their message out.

It is good to warn people of the pitfalls of self-publishing. But there's too many Jeremiahs on this board and a balance needs to be put forward of the brighter side which does exist for MANY self publishing authors. (ie: the 'minor league' or even 'Little League' players. Unfortunately the brighter side all too often put forward is all about the less realistic Major League with the Hollywood deals etc. But just because we cannot all pitch for the Major League it does not mean we should give up on baseball does it or have fun while we are doing it????)

NeuroFizz said:

Finally, the people who are making money from this enterprise are not the authors, but the owners of companies who put no effort into the works other than a bit of computer formatting and printing, and whose only interest is in quantity of published works, not quality of published works. If you think these people aren't making a bundle off of you, think again.

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During the California Gold Rush the people who were making money weren't the miners, they were the people selling shovels to the miners.

Here we're getting into the distinction between self-publishing and vanity publishing.

In self-publishing, the author owns the ISBN. The author does or contracts all the writing/editing/production/distribution. It's like a miniature publishing company with only one author. There's a printer involved, but if one day the author prints 500 copies with Aardvark Printing and the next day prints 500 more with Zebra Printing, neither Aardvark nor Zebra have a thing to say about it. (One of the main pitfalls of self-publishing is that the author as publisher will forget to pay himself as the author -- money should still flow toward the author, even if it's only moving from one pocket to another in the same pair of pants.) All the income goes to the author.

I know a gentleman -- a retired schoolteacher -- who self-publishes a book every year. He writes about local history, and places his books in local independent bookstores, where they sell to local folks and tourists.

He makes a small profit on each book. It's like a hobby that pays for itself -- cheaper than photography, safer than skydiving, doesn't take up as much space as model railroading. The only time he lost money on a book was the time he tried to take one national.

Vanity publishing, now -- the publisher owns the ISBN and handles the editing, production, printing, distribution (all at the author's expense). The author doesn't physically own the books, and gets a percentage of the income from their sale. For some people the convenience of having someone else handle the publication process might be worth giving up the control and the income. For others ... not so much. Personally I believe that while self-publishing can be viable, vanity publishing is a bad idea when it isn't a total scam.

Some areas are better suited to self-publishing than others: Poetry, specialized non-fiction, niche fiction. Perhaps a book on Intelligent Design counts as specialized non-fiction. The proposed book might do relatively well (as in make more than it cost) there. I don't see wide-spread readership, or adoption in schools, using that route, but I'd be interested in hearing how it all goes.

The idea that self-publication "proves" a book for trade presses is one that keeps coming around -- but while you can find some books that followed that route they're a miniscule percentage of the total that trade presses buy, and a miniscule percentage of the books that are self-published. Unless you move 10,000-15,000 in a reasonably short time it's not likely that a trade press will be interested.

I originally posted this in anothear area of the forum but think it may need to be here also.

"In the very short time that I’ve been a member of this forum, I must say that I’ve read a lot of opinions about self-publishing; both pro and con.

I ran across this information and wanted to share it with you. It’s about a young man who self-published his first book and now his work is listed as number one on Amazon. The link is at: http://www.teenreads.com/authors/au...christopher.asp

After reading this, I am somewhat convinced that self-publishing may be the only way for some of us to break into this game.

What say ya’ll?"

Note that the young man self-published first, then was discovered by an agent.

It's Christopher Paolini again.

It was the major trade publisher's edition that sold well (at Amazon among other places). Please notice that he didn't turn down the offer from that major press in order to continue with what he was doing.

Please also note that his book came out from an existing small press that had published books by other writers -- only the fact that the press was owned by his parents makes what he did self-publishing.