Can you bully-proof a kid?

heyjude

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All right my very smart author-friends. I want to pick your brains.

My kids are young yet, but already I can see that the girl is going to have trouble. Both kids are kind and sweet and well-mannered. We're bringing them up to act based on kindness, which I'm afraid means we might not be doing a great job of helping them stand up for themselves.

The girl ran into a small problem at school with another girl (mean girls at age 7? Seriously?). The school has a bully policy which says you try two things (asking the person to stop, walking away, etc) before you involve a teacher. Well, the girl did this and the mean girl didn't stop, so I went to the teacher. The school was ALL over it, and it seems to have stopped. The mean girl apologized.

So, problem solved... for the moment. But I'm concerned about the future of my very bright, very sensitive girl. Can you bully-proof a kid? How do you teach a kid to stand up for themselves while still being nice? Or is that not possible?

I appreciate any thoughts!
 

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I think it's an excellent question. But, of course, I don't have an excellent answer...

I don't know if there's much you can do to stop the other kids from targeting your daughter. You don't want your sweet child to have to change herself because of the behaviour of others.

So, for me, the solution would involve not addressing the bullying behaviour, but rather your daughter's reactions to the behaviour. I think that there's probably something important about having a strong sense of self. If your daughter knows who she is, and is happy with that person, it won't matter as much if other people pick on her. If she can hear someone say something cruel to her and think, 'I wonder why that bully is so unhappy? I wonder why she doesn't know how to be kind?' she might not be as affected by the bullying. And, as an added bonus, if the bullying has no effect, the bully will probably get bored and stop.

Of course, I have no idea how to give your daughter this level of self-esteem or compassion. Sorry..
 

heyjude

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Thanks, Kate. She does, actually, have good self-esteem, and she is really very compassionate. She's even mentioned that this girl must be very unhappy because she doesn't have any friends. It's still tough, though, to have someone teasing you and pushing you around. :(
 

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There are so many threads over in P&CE about this very topic. I don't have any answers (or any kids) but if I did, I'd teach them to stand up for themselves and others (those being bullied), and I'd get them involved in self-defense classes ASAP. Not that you want to promote fighting but the self-confidence and other skills learned in martial arts (etc.) are invaluable, IMHO. Besides, if I had kids, I'd allow/encourage them to do whatever's necessary to defend themselves and others--even if it meant getting suspended, etc. You can find another school, and you can move on (and hopefully learn a valuable life lesson in the process). You can't get your life back (suicides as result of bullying).

I agree with Kate Sherwood too: if you have a strong sense of self-worth and are 'comfortable in your own skin', hopefully a bully's taunts will roll right off. However, it seems today's bullies don't stop there. They resort to throwing things at other kids, "cyberbullying", and physical assault. :(
 

muse

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Your daughter sounds like a lovely child, and it's hard to hear of someone wanting to hurt her.

There will always been bullies in this world (old and young) and she does need to learn how to cope with them.

I think, giving her self-esteem is the best thing you can do for her as a parent; that, and the knowledge that she can talk to you, if she needs. (you'd be surprised how many children can't talk to their parents.)

Bullying should always be taken seriously.
 

heyjude

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Thanks, Rowan, and thanks, muse. I appreciate your thoughts so much.

Rowan, is there any kind of self-defense or martial arts you'd recommend? Does gender matter? I'm really not familiar with that kind of thing. I did have the boy in tae kwon do, but I've heard people say it's not good for self-defense in the real world. Not sure if that's true or not.

Muse, it breaks my heart that some kids can't talk to their parents. This makes me extra careful to let my kids know they can tell me anything. No problem is too big as long as we face it together.
 

Xelebes

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Don't know. Charisma is probably the easiest way of avoiding bullying and - I don't know if you can teach that.
 

leahzero

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The girl ran into a small problem at school with another girl (mean girls at age 7? Seriously?). The school has a bully policy which says you try two things (asking the person to stop, walking away, etc) before you involve a teacher. Well, the girl did this and the mean girl didn't stop, so I went to the teacher. The school was ALL over it, and it seems to have stopped. The mean girl apologized.

Oh, definitely. I remember bullies from when I was around 5-6, and that was two decades ago. Kids today start even younger, from what I've seen.

Your daughter's probably dealt with meanness and bullying that was subtle and unclear to her, and she may not share that with you, because she doesn't fully understand it herself. Especially if she's a sweet, kind kid who's considerate of others--she probably doesn't want to hurt anyone or get anyone in trouble.

From my personal experience, there was a lot of subtle meanness that wasn't outright bullying. I was a polite, considerate kid--overly so--and didn't speak out when it was happening. It gets to you subconsciously. That's one of the worst parts of bullying--when the bully convinces you that they're right, that you shouldn't say anything and just take it.

I think the advice to get your daughter involved in an activity that will build self-confidence is right on the money. You can't shield her from everything, but you can definitely give her opportunities to develop the inner strength to handle any situation.

And may I just salute you for what you're doing? If only all parents raised their kids like this, we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.
 
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Williebee

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About the only thing I can add to what Kate and Rowan gave you is in reference to martial arts training.

The form isn't as important as the instructor/dojo. Some teach the culture and commitment to self, others focus only on combat and competition.

Good Self esteem, self awareness and honesty are the most important things I think you can give your child. (Off in the corner I can hear my daughter's voice: "Pizza for dinner wouldn't hurt either, you know!") :)
 

tiny

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About the only thing I can add to what Kate and Rowan gave you is in reference to martial arts training.


I hesitated mentioning MMA training because the attitude I've run into from many school officials was negative. In fact, I was outright told I was making my son into a monster - he had just defended himself against a group of attackers, won, and been suspended for three days. After this incident however he never came home with another mark on him again. The group of bullies no longer targeted him or his friends.

I had grown tired of the bruises, cuts, scrapes... so I placed him in a 'street fighting' system which I also taught. There is a certain freedom in knowing you can defend yourself if forced, a confidence that shines through and tells would be victimers that you're not their best choice.

Eye contact, head up, always maintain distance, hands out of pockets, these are all ways that tell others 'I am not an easy target'.

At seven however, that's tougher, but I also taught children as young as three. It was amazing to see a group of five and six years old Little Ninjas - who had been in my Little Dragons classes - stand at attention, take direction, and be incredibly coordinated. They were wonderful children and had all the confidence in the world.
 

Rowan

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About the only thing I can add to what Kate and Rowan gave you is in reference to martial arts training.

The form isn't as important as the instructor/dojo. Some teach the culture and commitment to self, others focus only on combat and competition.

Good Self esteem, self awareness and honesty are the most important things I think you can give your child. (Off in the corner I can hear my daughter's voice: "Pizza for dinner wouldn't hurt either, you know!") :)

Exactly! It's not even about being "trained/ready" to fight but also knowing when you don't have to fight, etc. It's a self-confidence / awareness thing like Williebee said. I'm trying to think of a Yoda-ish line here but my mind is blank (just finished doing battle with the stink bugs).

I took Aikido in college, defensive tactics in the Academy, and hand-to-hand combat in the Corps (and yeah, I'm still afraid of stink bugs). I know a handful of MMA (mixed martial arts) guys and girls and they love it! Talk about tough training. I think maybe let her explore the different disciplines and let her choose. (And of course, all depends on the reputation of the dojo/instructor). Now I want to go and watch the original Karate Kid!

I know we have some martial artists on this board who can give you some better guidance on the issue...let me send up a smoke signal!
 

heyjude

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Thanks, everyone. I really appreciate it. I'm going to learn more about self-defense.
 

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Try some kind of martial arts training. Not so they can hurt the bully, but it's a major boost to their self confidence. Simply knowing that they are capable of defending themselves is great for a child.
Not to mention bullies tend to gravitate towards those with less self-confidence. Easier targets.

Jujitsu is my personal favorite, but Muay Thai is also good.
 
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Silver King

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My dad had a pretty good way of teaching his kids to stick up for themselves. We were taught at a young age that if we didn't fight back, we'd have to deal with his anger at rolling over. We were much more afraid of him than any punks we'd ever crossed paths with, which helped us to gain confidence in standing up for ourselves.

That was a different time, though, when coming home with a black eye and bloody nose would gain us zero sympathy if the old man found out we'd run away without making a stand. If we threw a few punches at least, he'd give us a pass and get us ready to take on our tormentors again and again until we prevailed in some way.

It worked, and I have the scars to prove it.
 

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My kids are young yet, but already I can see that the girl is going to have trouble. Both kids are kind and sweet and well-mannered. We're bringing them up to act based on kindness, which I'm afraid means we might not be doing a great job of helping them stand up for themselves.

I appreciate any thoughts!

I can tell you one thing that happened when my daughter was very young, in elementary school. The kids had to stand in line for lunch. I don't know where the teacher was, but...

One girl who was much bigger than her got a kick out of lifting my daughter up into the air. It scared her a lot and she was afraid to say anything or of getting into trouble.

I told her that if this girl picked her up or tried to, I wanted her to yell really loud, "LEAVE ME ALONE!" When she told me she might get into trouble for yelling, I said, "You have every right to defend yourself. If you make a lot of noise, a teacher is bound to notice and that other girl will be the one who'll get in trouble. And if you do get in trouble for yelling, I'll go down to that school and defend you."

It worked. The girl backed off.
 
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Apart from the excellent advice already given, I'd add: Be sure to teach your kids that fighting is unavoidable sooner or later, be it physical or psychological. The world is filled with wonderful and understanding people, but there will always be a bad person willing to harm you, and sooner or later you'll have to confront such reality, and be ready to understand and face the consequences of your actions.

Also, about martial arts: See that the teacher is willing to punish bullying, inside and out of the dojo. There was a little kid in my Haidong class who was instantly expelled from the dojo, when the mother said that he was using his training for bullying other kids at school.
 

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A well-placed insult can work absolute wonders, depending on what kind of bullying you're talking about.

I had a little dude (seriously, what was he thinking? I could have pounded him flat) try his best to bully me in middle school. Well, I was nice and level-headed, and I knew his father had committed suicide earlier that year. I didn't want to be mean back.

So I wasn't, for months and months. Finally one day, I said something a little snarky right back at him, in front of very few people. It was clear that I could have said a lot more. Worked like a charm. Well, that and he tried to knock me down in basketball and I took it like a ton of bricks, so his machismo didn't have a lot of steam after that.

Total, complete politeness? I just don't know. I've not found it to work in long-standing bullying problems. There may be a good balance where too much snark isn't completely necessary. But bullies like nice people. The lack of 'alpha' role-playing lets them show off. I was usually good at just ignoring it, but it depends on the kid. It can really hurt some kids.

It depends. Can sweet girls be tough at all and still be sweet? I hope so, myself :)
 

heyjude

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Thanks again, all. I've gotten some great advice, here and in PMs.

It makes me sick, the bullying. The fact that I have to plan ahead. The fact that I'm thinking about this when she's 7. I wish there were some magic fairy dust I could sprinkle on her.

The boy I'm not so worried about. He has that knack for making friends, you know? That guy who's friendly with everyone, who just can't accept that people might not be his best friend. The girl is not an introvert, but she's more restrained.

::sigh:: Why is raising kids so darn tough?
 

Susan Coffin

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Jude,

You are teaching your children to stand up for themselves. Your daughter told you about the bullying. She followed the school policy. When the bullying didn't stop, you talked to school officials and they took action. I bet both of your kids feel as if you and the school have stood up for them.

Man, when I was kid back in the sixties and seventies, there were no policies against bullying. When I told my dad that kids were mean to me, he told me to tell them "Sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me." Sure, he was doing what he knew best, but it's so not true. Kids don't realize how their words can hurt other kids. I can remember crying every day before I went to school.

I think kids need to learn to resolve their own stuff, because this what helps them to grow into functioning adults. But, I also believe that there is a time and place for parents to step in. I think bullying is always one of those situations. It's not like kids are having some kind of disagreement over something that can be resolved. Kids who bully are out for control and power, and they usually target those who they think are easy to pick on.

Today People magazine had a picture of three teens who committed suicide due to bullying. That tears my heart out. I wonder if somewhere along the way these kids felt they had to keep their pain to themselves and that killing themselves was the only way out. Internet access makes bullying easy for kids-all they have to do is create a website dedicated to the kid(s) being bullied.

I know there is more awareness about bullying today, but I feel there needs to be a whole lot more action taken. Kids who bully need to somehow feel the consequences. Parents of bullies need to be assigned some kind of responsibility as well. After all, they are the bullies' parents.

Jude, you did the right thing with your daughter.
 
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Gurdyman

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My dad taught me how to handle a bully: You hit him as hard as you can, right on the jaw or point of the chin. If he goes down, you kick whichever end gets up first. If he doesn't go down and he is bigger than you are, you run like hell. Eventually, the jerk will pick on someone easier.

This works. I have tried it.
 

Silver King

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This thread reminds me of one of the worst days of my life.

When I was eleven, a group of boys chased me through a playground screaming, "Wedgie! Wedgie!"

This meant that when they caught me, they'd yank my underwear up past my pants as far as they could, which is exactly what they did. I'd been given wedgies before, but never like that day. Two older boys were present, and they lifted me in the air and hung me by my underwear to a fence post. While everyone laughed, I was left dangling several feet above the ground, helpless to free myself. The underwear stretched some but held fast, the fabric digging between my ass cheeks and both testicles.

I was crying now and begging to be set free. This brought on even more laughter, and one of the boys, the smallest of the bunch, picked up a stick and started whacking me about the legs, the little prick. Someone else formed a mud ball and hit me in the face, where the dirt got into my eyes and mouth. I was screaming and flaying about by then, and the more I struggled, the further it seemed the underwear cut through my middle as if I'd been sliced in half.

After a few minutes, I ran out of steam and hung motionless except for great sobs that hurt my chest with each breath. At that point, I didn't care anymore what happened to me. I just wanted it all to end, but it kept going on and on.
 

bethany

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Your situation is the opposite of mine, my little girl makes friends easily and is assertive, my little boy is super sensitive (a vegetarian since he was 6) and cries very easily.

I have them in a montessori school where there are a lot of other oddballs. Right now things are working out well.

I try to teach self esteem, but it's very difficult. Some kids are just born questioning themselves. My son has mentioned not wanting to be alive several times, when he was feeling sad.

I just try to talk to them as often as possible (as you obviously do as well) trying to see what's happening at school, whether they are being supervised, whether anything mean or inappropriate is happening.
 

benbradley

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...The girl ran into a small problem at school with another girl (mean girls at age 7? Seriously?).
Yes.

If a kid knows what "Be nice" means, then the kid also has the concept of being mean, and meanness can happen.
The school has a bully policy which says you try two things (asking the person to stop, walking away, etc) before you involve a teacher. Well, the girl did this and the mean girl didn't stop, so I went to the teacher. The school was ALL over it, and it seems to have stopped. The mean girl apologized.
There will come a time, probably sooner than later, when this won't work. It will be called "tattling." Yes, appealing to authority to intervene will always be the only "approved" way to handle such a situation, but to truly stop abuse she must be armed with other, independent methods, as others have already posted.
So, problem solved... for the moment. But I'm concerned about the future of my very bright, very sensitive girl. Can you bully-proof a kid? How do you teach a kid to stand up for themselves while still being nice?
As edited, you follow some of the responses in this thread. If you're always "nice" and "sensitive" you'll be a target. Sometime you have to be mean back to mean people.
Or is that not possible?
You CANNOT stop bullying while being nice. No fucking way.

My mother always told me "now, Benjie, be nice." My father wasn't a good example - long memoir short, my mother wore the pants in the family. That was the wrong thing, I about died trying to be "nice" for my mother, and she didn't seem to care that I always got annoyed at her constant lecturing at me. My parents took me to shrinks and shit and that didn't help. It wasn't until I was an adult that I figured out my mother was mentally ill. As an adult I finally saw where the rest of the family ignored my mother, or just agreed with her when she said something, then went on to do what they were doing as if she hadn't said anything. I made the horrible mistake of taking my mother seriously, and expecting her to take me seriously.

There were a couple of times in my life that I actually STOPPED someone else abusing me, once in the third or fourth grade, the other about age 17. I don't know how I didn't learn from these events.

The first one - I spent grades three through five in an "emotionally disturbed" class with about five to eight other students, as opposed to the regular classes with about 20 students. At one point another boy and I got into a fight, and as usual I was losing. I was thinking I could do something to perhaps change the balance of power (and this was even before Nixon was President) - so I went into action: I took aim with my foot, and bam! Perfect shot. All of a sudden he was bent over holding his hands in his crotch crying to the teacher that "He cheated! He kicked me where it hurts! That's no fair!" But it ENDED the fight.

About age 17, at a private school, for PE about eight of us were playing basketball with the teacher. A small punk was teasing me while we were playing, while the teacher was looking the other way. I was so fed up with him I all of a sudden didn't give a shit that happened to me (as far as the teacher seeing me, me getting expelled from a private school, bla bla bla), so when he made a face at me I reached out with my hand at his face, and barely touched his cheek. The teacher suddenly yelled out "Hey! That's not needed, we don't need to act like that." Then we went back to playing basketball. There wasn't much left of the school year, but he never screwed with me after that. I think he saw how fed up I was with his shit, and that I was pushed to a point that I was dangerous, that I could hurt him and not care about the consequences. It doesn't do anything for the emotional damage done up to that time, but it at least kept a little bit more from being piled on.
I hesitated mentioning MMA training because the attitude I've run into from many school officials was negative. In fact, I was outright told I was making my son into a monster - he had just defended himself against a group of attackers, won, and been suspended for three days. After this incident however he never came home with another mark on him again. The group of bullies no longer targeted him or his friends.

I had grown tired of the bruises, cuts, scrapes... so I placed him in a 'street fighting' system which I also taught. There is a certain freedom in knowing you can defend yourself if forced, a confidence that shines through and tells would be victimers that you're not their best choice.

Eye contact, head up, always maintain distance, hands out of pockets, these are all ways that tell others 'I am not an easy target'.

At seven however, that's tougher, but I also taught children as young as three. It was amazing to see a group of five and six years old Little Ninjas - who had been in my Little Dragons classes - stand at attention, take direction, and be incredibly coordinated. They were wonderful children and had all the confidence in the world.
This is good stuff.
Thanks again, all. I've gotten some great advice, here and in PMs.

It makes me sick, the bullying. The fact that I have to plan ahead. The fact that I'm thinking about this when she's 7. I wish there were some magic fairy dust I could sprinkle on her.

The boy I'm not so worried about. He has that knack for making friends, you know? That guy who's friendly with everyone, who just can't accept that people might not be his best friend. The girl is not an introvert, but she's more restrained.

::sigh:: Why is raising kids so darn tough?
If you thought it was easy or if you just ignored this, you wouldn't be as good a parent as you are.
My dad taught me how to handle a bully: You hit him as hard as you can, right on the jaw or point of the chin. If he goes down, you kick whichever end gets up first. If he doesn't go down and he is bigger than you are, you run like hell. Eventually, the jerk will pick on someone easier.

This works. I have tried it.
More good experience.
 

amlptj

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Ok i'm going to give my honest opinion based on my hell as a child. Again this is only an opinion.

Ok me, I feel like i would be a lot like your daughter, I was very shy, quiet, and nice. When i transfered to my new school hell began for me. I was bullied every day by the other 16 kids in my class for 5 years. (4th grade-8th) I did nothing to deserve it, i wasnt the type of kid who was extreamly annoying to tried to pick fights, it was simply because I was seen to be the weakest and easiest to tease.

My mom would tell me every day when i came home crying my eyes out from there new torment, to stand up to them. But i just didnt know how, after all i was serverly out numbered. Years of this went by and not one teacher did a thing to truely stop it although they knew completely well what was going on. I mean teachers i didnt even have yet, knew about the torment i endured. Now most of the bullying was only verbal it only became physical once, but not to a big extreame, another girl pulled my hair then pushed me over.

I graduated without ever standing up to any of them, and to this day it still haunts me. I know i'm going to die with that regreat. My advice to you, is it first, sign you child up for some sort of matial art- a friend of mine i met later in life said it helped his confidence greatly knowing that if anything ever became physical he had the power to really hurt them. Second- Make sure your child has at least one true friend. I had no one and that was a great disadvantage. Third- Teach her the importance of not being pushed over, to always understand that being nice and good is the way to go but when someone gives her a serious problem, that it is ok to put them back in there place (verbally that is.) They start picking on her for one thing that she instantly picks on that girl/boy for one of their flaws.

There is never a ture way to bully proof your kid. Kids now a days are cruel and heartless, they learn very early on by parents who barely raise them, that minipulation, and abuse are ways to get things from others and become accepted. The only way to combate these kind of people are to stand up to them regardless the price and turn all there cruel words and actions back around that them.
 

heyjude

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My heart is truly broken. I'm so sorry so many of you have been through this. I really appreciate you being brave enough to share your stories.

And now I'm going to yank both my kids out of school and homeschool them and never take them anywhere again.

Kidding.

Mostly.

My old pastor says this all the time: "Just because you're a Christian doesn't make you a doormat." I always liked that saying. Now it's time to make sure we're living it.