Feelings as evidence of reality

Ruv Draba · Sep 27, 2010

A lot of my friends and colleagues give strong weight to their feelings as evidence of what's happening around them. For example, if they feel happy they may look outside themselves for a source of pleasure. If they feel afraid they'll look outside for a threat. Feel loved? They'll look for a creature loving them. Feel humiliated? They'll look around for someone dissing them.

I've always felt that reality doesn't care how I feel; therefore how I feel may not say much about reality. Sometimes my feelings give me clues for things I'd only noticed unconsciously, but often, I think that my feelings are only a reflection of me.

How is it for you? How much weight do you give to your feelings as a measure of the world around you? How accurate are they, and how do you know? When you have a persistent feeling, what do you do? When a feeling is proven inaccurate, what do you do?

Maxx · Sep 27, 2010

Ruv Draba said:
A lot of my friends and colleagues give strong weight to their feelings as evidence of what's happening around them. For example, if they feel happy they may look outside themselves for a source of pleasure. If they feel afraid they'll look outside for a threat. Feel loved? They'll look for a creature loving them. Feel humiliated? They'll look around for someone dissing them.

I've always felt that reality doesn't care how I feel; therefore how I feel may not say much about reality. Sometimes my feelings give me clues for things I'd only noticed unconsciously, but often, I think that my feelings are only a reflection of me.

How is it for you? How much weight do you give to your feelings as a measure of the world around you? How accurate are they, and how do you know? When you have a persistent feeling, what do you do? When a feeling is proven inaccurate, what do you do?

the term feelings often seems to be used for some kind of overall assessment with a motivational tinge, as in "I feel like taking that worthless car and pushing it over a cliff." Note there's an implication of anger with the car, but that the whole "feeling" is performed as much to get a rational response out of somebody as it is to give useful evidence.

Diana Hignutt · Sep 27, 2010

I'm not sure it's possible to disentangle our perception of reality from our feelings about it, completely. Certainly, a comparative sampling of other's versions of reality can be useful, but not definitive, depending on our definition of reality.imo, of course.

Maxx · Sep 27, 2010

Diana Hignutt said:
I'm not sure it's possible to disentangle our perception of reality from our feelings about it, completely. Certainly, a comparative sampling of other's versions of reality can be useful, but not definitive, depending on our definition of reality.imo, of course.

And yet if I tell you I feel X about Y then I'm telling you something about my version of reality.

JimmyB27 · Sep 27, 2010

Ruv Draba said:
I've always felt that reality doesn't care how I feel; therefore how I feel may not say much about reality.

Are you saying the outside world has no effect on how you feel?

Diana Hignutt · Sep 27, 2010

Maxx said:
And yet if I tell you I feel X about Y then I'm telling you something about my version of reality.

Right.?

Maxx · Sep 27, 2010

Diana Hignutt said:
Right.?

So feelings help people develop a common reality. A version of reality they have in common.

Shadow_Ferret · Sep 27, 2010

Ruv Draba said:
How is it for you? How much weight do you give to your feelings as a measure of the world around you? How accurate are they, and how do you know? When you have a persistent feeling, what do you do? When a feeling is proven inaccurate, what do you do?

I'm responsible for how I feel. I'm responsible for my own emotions.

Williebee · Sep 27, 2010

A lot of my friends and colleagues give strong weight to their feelings as evidence of what's happening around them

Makes sense to me. More than once I have backtracked the scent of a barbecue from wanting ribs.

Maxx · Sep 27, 2010

Shadow_Ferret said:
I'm responsible for how I feel. I'm responsible for my own emotions.

Are you responsible for feelings that other people's words trigger in you?

Ruv Draba · Sep 27, 2010

JimmyB27 said:
Are you saying the outside world has no effect on how you feel?

I have a detached thinky-filter that often pre-empts any emotional response. For example, show me a picture of a grinning child hugging a dog. In order I will notice: the child's facial expression, the dog's attention, the type of child, the breed of dog, the child's clothes, the background, the distance from the camera, whether the picture was posed or spontaneous -- and then I might register that the child loves the dog. And even then I won't go 'awww'... I'll wonder how long the child has known the dog, and how long the dog has known the child and how they play together and whether the dog loves the child as much as the child loves the dog...

In all that observation I won't necessarily connect the picture with any dogs that I've loved myself, even if the dog resembles one from my own childhood.

So on the plus-side, I can (for example) see a dead woman on a train and give her mouth-to-mouth resuscitation without hesitation (I did that once with no prior training while a dozen people were standing around wanting to help but being afraid). I had no emotional response to that until long after (but I did eventually have one -- even years later, the smell of patchouli now makes me uncomfortable).

On the minus-side, I don't always react as people expect and they often react in ways that baffle me. Someone wishing me 'happy birthday' is irritating at best -- my date of birth is none of their concern, nor had I planned on celebrating the occasion since it's an arbitary date and I consider the ritual dysfunctional. Similarly, I have no hesitation telling authority if I think they're wrong -- even on occasions where that may not be prudent.

So... I don't much see my feelings as evidence of reality because the feelings I have generally aren't.They're more evidence of whatever I'm thinking about at the time which, might have nothing to do with whatever I'm seeing. But I think that for some people, feelings react strongly to whatever they see, and perhaps they use them more as evidence of the meaning of what they see.

Is that so?

Gehanna · Sep 27, 2010

If the emotive experience does not overwhelm my capacity for reason - an example being sorrow due to death of a loved one - and the prompt is not immediately apparent, I may choose to investigate it.

Gehanna

Ruv Draba · Sep 27, 2010

Maxx said:
the term feelings often seems to be used for some kind of overall assessment with a motivational tinge,

Yes, but that's a convention of language. In my own head emotion is separate from motive and those things are separate from meaning.

For instance, if someone asks me directions, I'll willingly give them if I know the answer. But it's largely unconnected to my feelings because I'll give those directions whether I'm happy, sad, angry or frightened, whether I like the person or not. The only reason I wouldn't give directions is if I thought it were better that I don't.

In fiction, we don't write motive that way. My fictional characters are always charged with passion because that's how most readers like to read. But like fictional dialogue it doesn't much resemble my experience of life. Emotions affect my choice of language (the more passionate I get, the more my language changes), but don't much affect what I think or do.

Meaning for me is largely about challenge, benefit and efficiency; it's not much about feeling. I can be happy, sad, cranky or frustrated but I'll tend to lock into the area of biggest challenge, biggest potential benefit and lowest efficiency and try to crack it. I may continue to feel exactly as I felt when I started, but I'll also try to complete the task.

Is it different for other people? Do feelings affect whether you'd give directions? Do they affect the meaning you ascribe to what you see?

scottVee · Sep 28, 2010

It's almost overwhelming to what degree people's feelings color their every word and action. On a regular day it seems like everyone I talk to (or accidentally hear in the background) is just pulling baloney out of thin air. Or, projecting their feelings onto the whole world to justify whatever they're saying. Worst of all, how often people project their feelings onto me, telling me I'm mad when I'm just bored, or telling me what I'm thinking when they haven't got a clue. It's bizarre and frustrating. It's really starting to creep me out just how irrational people are, and how rare critical thinking is. It's mostly just mouths talking, not connected to brains. Just a different take on those "feelings".

Diana Hignutt · Sep 28, 2010

Ruv Draba said:
I have a detached thinky-filter that often pre-empts any emotional response. ?

No, you really don't. You might think you do, and to some extent you might catch some of them and try to discount them, but unless you are not human, your emotions take place in your filtering, just like everybody else. Nice try though.

Ruv Draba · Sep 28, 2010

Humans have a lot in common, but we can process information and make decisions in noticably different ways. Some people like tidy homes; some like messy. Some pay a lot of attention to details; some notice the connections between things more than the things themselves. Some love ritual; some find ritual uncomfortable. Some seem to lean heavily on their feelings to make sense of things; some like me are detached from feelings and distrustful of them.

Is it important to you that I think just like you do, Di? Do you believe you think just like everyone else?

Diana Hignutt · Sep 28, 2010

Ruv Draba said:
Is it important to you that I think just like you do, Di? Do you believe you think just like everyone else?

Is it important to you that you don't? I'm saying it is not possible to completely by-pass feelings in examining our perceptions. Can one minimize this...yes...but it isn't easy. In my experience humans (sadly) have more similarity in their thinking processes than differences. Do you believe that you don't think much like everyone else? And why do you suppose you are so special in this regard?

Maxx · Sep 28, 2010

Ruv Draba said:
Yes, but that's a convention of language. In my own head emotion is separate from motive and those things are separate from meaning.

For instance, if someone asks me directions, I'll willingly give them if I know the answer. But it's largely unconnected to my feelings because I'll give those directions whether I'm happy, sad, angry or frightened, whether I like the person or not. The only reason I wouldn't give directions is if I thought it were better that I don't.

I think the idea that feelings about things are connected to assessing things isn't just a convention of language. For example, on the giving directions question:
Suppose you meet another person and you both are trying to get to the same place but you don't know where it is. We can make it more specific: its early afternoon on a moderately dangerous mountain where there are often thunderstorms. The slopes are covered with trees and scree and talus. The valleys are intricate, visibility is intermediate and rapidly changing, one of you has a slightly injured foot and the other a slightly injured arm. One of you has been reciting the Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner. You aim is to get to the top of the mountain and get shelter before night.
"Which way is Bear Pass?"
One of you professes strong feelings about the direction (well which canyon anyway). The other does not. Taking the feelings as an guide accomplishes several things: the person who goes along has agreed with the other but not rationally. They have formed a tiny social reality around that question and their shared answer. The one with the stronger feelings has implied they will take some of the cost of a mistake, but also get social points for being right. Note that larger questions of rationality don't come in directly, though no doubt they will intrude strongly if things go wrong.

Ruv Draba · Sep 28, 2010

Diana Hignutt said:
Is it important to you that you don't?

It's important to me to be accurate.

Do you believe that you don't think much like everyone else? And why do you suppose you are so special in this regard?

I don't think it's unique. There's a small percentage of people who think in a similar way. We have emotions but they just don't play a big part in how we see things or make decisions. Many of the things that make sense to other people (like formalities, myths, rituals and celebrations) make no sense to us at all, so we do walk around a bit like an alien on vacation

Your post though takes an odd position. Is it acceptable to you that people have gender difference but not that they have emotional difference? Suppose I'd said to you that all human males really want to be boys, but some love their mummies too much and want to wear dresses?

Ruv Draba · Sep 28, 2010

Maxx said:
One of you professes strong feelings about the direction (well which canyon anyway). The other does not. Taking the feelings as an guide accomplishes several things: the person who goes along has agreed with the other but not rationally.

That's a really interesting example, Maxx. I know that a lot of people create consensus so that they'll have a group to belong to. But some people do it differently -- they prize the truth (or their understanding of it) above consensus. For myself another person's feelings, no matter how strong or popular, are largely irrelevant. I'll generally abandon emotional consensus in favour of whatever I think. The more pressure there is to set aside personal perspective for the sake of a common emotional/tribal identity, the less comfortable I am.

Diana Hignutt · Sep 29, 2010

Ruv Draba said:
Your post though takes an odd position. Is it acceptable to you that people have gender difference but not that they have emotional difference? Suppose I'd said to you that all human males really want to be boys, but some love their mummies too much and want to wear dresses?

And I thought we were friends, but your strawmen always tend towards offensive. This case, possibily your most extreme yet. If you can't see the difference between emotional, gender, or functional cognitive differences, I'm not sure we have much to talk about. You said your feelings have no effect on your perceptions, that you give them no regard. I say that is impossible for a human being. Might you have tricked yourself into believing that this true. Sure, people convince themselves of all kinds of crazy stuff. But, your other, retalitary, points seem to be inspired from some sort of feelings.

I shall await the apology I deserve...with little result, I'm sure.

Maxx · Sep 29, 2010

Ruv Draba said:
That's a really interesting example, Maxx. I know that a lot of people create consensus so that they'll have a group to belong to. But some people do it differently -- they prize the truth (or their understanding of it) above consensus. For myself another person's feelings, no matter how strong or popular, are largely irrelevant. I'll generally abandon emotional consensus in favour of whatever I think. The more pressure there is to set aside personal perspective for the sake of a common emotional/tribal identity, the less comfortable I am.

I find that those occasions where some group of people are interacting with a poorly known and possibly slightly dangerous environment reveals a lot about how feelings work to dig out aspects of reality. For example, if a larger group is uncertain about what to do (ie, something out of the ordinary has come up), I can think of several instances where some unexpected dynamics came up that had a feeling side that helped fragment or build the consensus. In one case a relatively marginal person suddenly led a fragmentation which was later viewed as so heroic the whole fishing town talked about it forever after. His rationale and all that followed was told in terms of feeling, but this feeling was constrasted with the mortal danger he voluntarily faced, as if that balanced the essential irrationality of his actions. On the other hand, when I have been in charge when something goes wrong far from help, I tend to let people talk out their feelings and then declare a more rational (I think) course of action. The venting of feelings seems to help people work out the full range of ways of addressing the distressing situation and avoid fragmenting the group while declaring a rational decision seems to allow people to treasure their feelings (or greivances) while conforming to a course of action. IE, the contingent nature of a group based on a rational course of action is also a comfort.

Ruv Draba · Sep 29, 2010

I really think it depends on who's in the group. I've done a bit of project rescue work -- people will have messed up on a project (sometimes to the tune of tens of millions of dollars) and they know there's a problem but they're unable to fix it.

Often, qualities that are strengths when all is going well are terrible weaknesses when things are going badly. People who are normally right won't admit their part in things are wrong; people who are good at being liked won't confront problem behaviours; people who are good at creating comfort won't take on discomfort to fix the problem; and people who like to be in charge won't hand over the reins to someone more competent.

Maxx · Sep 29, 2010

Ruv Draba said:
I really think it depends on who's in the group. I've done a bit of project rescue work -- people will have messed up on a project (sometimes to the tune of tens of millions of dollars) and they know there's a problem but they're unable to fix it.

Often, qualities that are strengths when all is going well are terrible weaknesses when things are going badly. People who are normally right won't admit their part in things are wrong; people who are good at being liked won't confront problem behaviours; people who are good at creating comfort won't take on discomfort to fix the problem; and people who like to be in charge won't hand over the reins to someone more competent.

Yes. I think those long-term behaviors obscure the usefulness of feelings under more immediate and less formal situations. That's one reason why team-building camps (and camps for people who have been in trouble with the law) tend to do best in relatively primitive conditions. There's nothing like trying to get a boat down a river or completing a ropes course (I'm told, I haven't done ropes) to break down behaviors and allow the dealing with feelings to begin.

ColoradoGuy · Sep 29, 2010

Ruv Draba said:
Often, qualities that are strengths when all is going well are terrible weaknesses when things are going badly. People who are normally right won't admit their part in things are wrong; people who are good at being liked won't confront problem behaviours; people who are good at creating comfort won't take on discomfort to fix the problem; and people who like to be in charge won't hand over the reins to someone more competent.

That's been my experience as well.

Feelings as evidence of reality

Got the hang of it, here

Very Tired

Got the hang of it, here

Hoopy frood

Very Tired

Got the hang of it, here

Court Jester

Capeless, wingless, & yet I fly.

Got the hang of it, here

Introvert

Very Tired

Very Tired

Got the hang of it, here

Very Tired

Got the hang of it, here

Got the hang of it, here

I've seen worse.