Google and Verizon

escritora

.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 21, 2007
Messages
2,995
Reaction score
616
Google and Verizon made an agreement that is rumored to end Net Neutrality.

Link

Here's the lowdown:

huffpo_logo_lightbox_beta.png






1. Under their proposal, there would be no Net Neutrality on wireless networks -- meaning anything goes, from blocking websites and applications to pay-for-priority treatment.


2. Their proposed standard for "non-discrimination" on wired networks is so weak that actions like Comcast's widely denounced blocking of BitTorrent would be allowed.


3. The deal would let ISPs like Verizon -- instead of Internet users like you -- decide which applications deserve the best quality of service. That's not the way the Internet has ever worked, and it threatens to close the door on tomorrow's innovative applications. (If RealPlayer had been favored a few years ago, would we ever have gotten YouTube?)


4. The deal would allow ISPs to effectively split the Internet into "two pipes" -- one of which would be reserved for "managed services," a pay-for-pay platform for content and applications. This is the proverbial toll road on the information superhighway, a fast lane reserved for the select few, while the rest of us are stuck on the cyber-equivalent of a winding dirt road.


5. The pact proposes to turn the Federal Communications Commission a toothless watchdog, left fruitlessly chasing consumer complaints but unable to make rules of its own. Instead, it would leave it up to unaccountable (and almost surely industry-controlled) third parties to decide what the rules should be.

I'm concerned because I run an online business, but I'm not sure if I should be concerned. This whole issue is over my head.

Does anyone have a handle on how the Google-Verizon agreement affects a small business like mine (I'm a consultant) and big business?
 

Zoombie

Dragon of the Multiverse
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 24, 2006
Messages
40,775
Reaction score
5,947
Location
Some personalized demiplane
A byte is a byte. Trying to make us pay more for one over the other is tantamount to highway robbery.
 

Mara

Clever User Title
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 21, 2009
Messages
1,961
Reaction score
343
Location
United States
We need strong federal regulation to prevent this, which means voting for people who support net neutrality. For the record, generally it's Republicans who are opposed to net neutrality. :)

(EDIT: I could have left that last part off, but then it would have been manipulative. Better to acknowledge my biases up front.)
 
Last edited:

Lhun

New kid, be gentle!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
1,956
Reaction score
137
Does anyone have a handle on how the Google-Verizon agreement affects a small business like mine (I'm a consultant) and big business?
Ultimately? It could mean that in the future you'll have to pay ISPs so they show your website to their customers. And they'll probably collect money a second time from their customers to show them your website.
Abandoning net neutrality would be a major setback for society as a whole, but i'm afraid people have gotten used to the walled garden approach since they've been buying all the iCrap for so long, that they won't care about net neutrality either.
What the industry would ultimately like to see is completely control over the whole chain of information delivery. The hardware will only display what the hardware producer allows (i.e. what he can profit from) the software will only display the file formats the manufacturer allows (those they licenced), the ISP will only transmit the data it allows (i.e. what they get paid for) and so on.
It's like paying for a cellphone and then you have to pay for the right to call people in Boston, for the minutes you spend talking as well, and the one in boston you called had to pay for the right to be callable by people outside of boston.
 

Shadow Dragon

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
Messages
4,773
Reaction score
261
Location
In the land of dragons
Net nuetrality is important to maintain. However, it forces companies to provide a near infinite amount of bandwidth, which they simply can't do. Verizon is decided to use their bandwidth to support sites that in turn support Verizon. Which is a smart business move, I suppose.

The only part of the government, here in the US, that can step in is the FCC. Interstate communications (including the internet) is their jurisdiction, so they can order that Verizon can't slow down any sites.
 

benbradley

It's a doggy dog world
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
20,322
Reaction score
3,513
Location
Transcending Canines
Net nuetrality is important to maintain. However, it forces companies to provide a near infinite amount of bandwidth, which they simply can't do. Verizon is decided to use their bandwidth to support sites that in turn support Verizon. Which is a smart business move, I suppose.
Yeah, maybe it'll be good for them in the short term, but I think (hope) it's a short-sighted move.

I'm gonna have all my online movies sent as SMTP data so they'll be cheaper. Yeah, it's just 50 gigabytes of letters from grandma...
 

escritora

.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 21, 2007
Messages
2,995
Reaction score
616
Ultimately? It could mean that in the future you'll have to pay ISPs so they show your website to their customers. And they'll probably collect money a second time from their customers to show them your website.

This is worrisome. Thanks for the breakdown. I get it now.
 

SPMiller

Prodigiously Hanged
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
11,525
Reaction score
1,988
Age
41
Location
Dallas
Website
seanpatrickmiller.com
Telecom companies are notorious for resisting investment in information infrastructure wherever they might have to share it with competitors, so this is nothing new. They're always going to push for ways to improve their margins; that's the way business works. We just have to be strong and say, "No."
 

Ruv Draba

Banned
Joined
Dec 29, 2007
Messages
5,114
Reaction score
1,322
A byte is a byte. Trying to make us pay more for one over the other is tantamount to highway robbery.
When infrastructure saturates, money talks. Horse-riders and cyclists are forbidden on freeways -- they're reserved for car-owners, truck-operators and billboard advertising. Public train-tracks are dedicated to a small number of train-companies -- try running your home-made choo-choo on one and see what happens. :) And just keep trying to tell yourself you "own" your phone or email service when you can't even control who calls/texts you with spam advertising.

The idea of a commons is wonderful, but when its use saturates, it either gets socialised or privatised or it runs down. Take ya pick. :tongue
 

Michael J. Hoag

"What's-it on the wall."
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 12, 2007
Messages
1,188
Reaction score
250
Location
An endless loop of trout mask replica
Website
zamyatin-lives.blogspot.com
Thanks for bringing this up here. This issue should be simple and clear cut. If you like the internet the way it is, you're fore net neutrality. If you'd rather have a centrally planned internet, operated only for profit, with big corporations telling you what you can and can't look at, you're against net neutrality.

As far as it being "Republicans vs Democrats," never forget that net neutrality is ending under Democratic rule.
 

Michael J. Hoag

"What's-it on the wall."
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 12, 2007
Messages
1,188
Reaction score
250
Location
An endless loop of trout mask replica
Website
zamyatin-lives.blogspot.com
When infrastructure saturates, money talks. Horse-riders and cyclists are forbidden on freeways -- they're reserved for car-owners and truck-operators. Public train-tracks are dedicated to a small number of train-companies -- try running your home-made choo-choo on one and see what happens. :) And just keep trying to tell yourself you "own" your phone or email service when you can't even control who calls/texts you with spam advertising.

The idea of a commons is wonderful, but when its use saturates, it either gets socialised or privatised or it runs down. Take ya pick. :tongue

Pshaw. No, what we'll get is socialized infrastructure costs and privatization of the profit.

I wouldn't mind the privatization so long as there was competition.

But without adequate competition, what results is less freedom in the flow of information.

The Net is more like our Library system than our road system.

The sky is not falling, as these companies claim.
 

Ruv Draba

Banned
Joined
Dec 29, 2007
Messages
5,114
Reaction score
1,322
Pshaw. No, what we'll get is socialized infrastructure costs and privatization of the profit.

I wouldn't mind the privatization so long as there was competition.
This seems to be a missing middle here, Michael. Socialisation of infrastructure costs is often motivated by socialisation of essential needs. The delivery of Internet to schools, or to medical or emergency services has a clear social benefit argument. High-quality connectivity for these purposes is necessary, and arguably worth socialised investment.

But for the moment at least, the vast majority of Internet usage by volume is about entertainment and its kissin' cousin, advertising. I don't see that there's a government role in supplying or assuring those services. I'm not in favour of laissez-faire either, but do support light-touch, practical regulation for basic human needs like privacy and security, and essential connectivity.
 

Mara

Clever User Title
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 21, 2009
Messages
1,961
Reaction score
343
Location
United States
As far as it being "Republicans vs Democrats," never forget that net neutrality is ending under Democratic rule.

It's ending? Even if this deal is finalized, the FCC has to allow it. And there are a lot of Democrats pushing for laws that would outlaw this sort of thing.

Whereas there's a reasonable number of Republicans who are strongly against net neutrality.
 

SPMiller

Prodigiously Hanged
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
11,525
Reaction score
1,988
Age
41
Location
Dallas
Website
seanpatrickmiller.com
Cell phone contracts and related a-la-carte services, often imposing hard limits on bandwidth, prove that corporations will fuck us if they possibly can. The propaganda that pro-network-neutrality is a consumer-advocate position not supported by the populace at large is bullshit.
 

Hallen

Mostly annoying
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 28, 2010
Messages
971
Reaction score
111
Location
Albany, Oregon, USA
We need strong federal regulation to prevent this, which means voting for people who support net neutrality. For the record, generally it's Republicans who are opposed to net neutrality. :)

(EDIT: I could have left that last part off, but then it would have been manipulative. Better to acknowledge my biases up front.)
No, what we should push for is NO regulation. Government regulation guaranties differences in services and will hamstring innovation. It always does.


Ultimately? It could mean that in the future you'll have to pay ISPs so they show your website to their customers. And they'll probably collect money a second time from their customers to show them your website.
They already do. You have to pay for business level access to host a website. It takes more bandwidth so you pay more. Will they start blocking websites from being shown to customers on their service? Yeah, that'll go over really well. No, that would be a dumb business model.
Abandoning net neutrality would be a major setback for society as a whole, but i'm afraid people have gotten used to the walled garden approach since they've been buying all the iCrap for so long, that they won't care about net neutrality either.
What the industry would ultimately like to see is completely control over the whole chain of information delivery. The hardware will only display what the hardware producer allows (i.e. what he can profit from) the software will only display the file formats the manufacturer allows (those they licenced), the ISP will only transmit the data it allows (i.e. what they get paid for) and so on.
It's like paying for a cellphone and then you have to pay for the right to call people in Boston, for the minutes you spend talking as well, and the one in boston you called had to pay for the right to be callable by people outside of boston.
And as long as the net remains a free an neutral ground, there will always be a provider to step in who does not constrain content in that way. They'll garner so many customers from other providers that the others will have to change their ways. The problems come in when government regulations make entry into a market so prohibitively expensive that only a few monster sized corporations can enter and play the game. Then you have the collusion problems.

I'm no expert on this stuff, but it seems to me that everything coming out of our government about the internet is either trying to find ways to tax it or trying to implement more government control to protect all of us against the evil Google-type corporations. No, we don't want either. As long as the FCC is blocked from regulating the internet and our current laws are upheld, then we won't have any trouble. We will have trouble if the FCC steps in to regulate.

It's ending? Even if this deal is finalized, the FCC has to allow it. And there are a lot of Democrats pushing for laws that would outlaw this sort of thing.

Whereas there's a reasonable number of Republicans who are strongly against net neutrality.

"Net Neutrality" policy push is anything but neutral. The term "Net Neutrality" sounds all nice, like the Fairness Doctrine, but it's really just a way for government to gain control so they can pick the winners and losers. It is heavy handed government regulation to insure "neutrality". That never happens. Government cannot fairly divide up something that shouldn't be divided in the first place. I think what everybody is panicking about is that some of us don't want the FCC anywhere near the internet. We don't want government regulation because that is the one thing that will guarantee favoritism and the exact things that people fear will happen.


I'm not all warm and fuzzy about these bigger and bigger ISP companies and internet content providers like Google, but as long as there are enough of these guys at each other's throats, the consumer will be fine. Ask government to start regulating and you'll end up with another Ma-Bell fiasco.

I scanned through this policy statement (which is all it is, btw), and I don't see what all the panic is about, really. Basically it says that ISP's can't control what content it allows and that the FCC is not empowered to regulate the internet.

Verizon is panicking because they have so much CDMA infrastructure, which is old tech, that they can't handle the bandwidth that other providers can. So, they're going to limit what you can do with your phone's connection. If you don't like that, drop Verizon.

This whole thing is a storm in the tea cup and if it is kept up and we rally our ever-so protective and wise government to save us, you'll end up creating what you so desire to stop.
 

Lhun

New kid, be gentle!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
1,956
Reaction score
137
However, it forces companies to provide a near infinite amount of bandwidth, which they simply can't do.
Whu? No it doesn't. You get the bandwidth you pay for. It nowhere near "near infinite". And has nothing to do with neutrality. Neutrality is about you, as a paying customer, getting access to the whole net, not only those parts that also paid your ISP.
If an ISP wants to try collecting money from content creators and provide access to that for free for everyone who wants to see it, that's their choice as well. But taking money from both sides is dishonest.
 

Williebee

Capeless, wingless, & yet I fly.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 11, 2007
Messages
20,569
Reaction score
4,814
Location
youtu.be/QRruBVFXjnY
Website
www.ifoundaknife.com
Picture a drive from LA to San Francisco, or maybe one from Boston to D.C, London to Paris.

Here's what we're going to do -- If you pay the right people the right amount of money, You get first dibs at the on ramp. Another fee, to someone else, gets you cuts in line at the offramp. Pay a bit more and you also get to use the fast lane. If the fast lane slows down, we'll stop the traffic in the slow lane and move you over into that lane to balance out the fast lane slowdown, lessening your time in traffic. Those folks in the slow lane? They'll sit on the shoulder until the jam is cleared up. If they run out of gas (time out), they can always start again.

That's what ending net neutrality will do to internet traffic.

Will it end your access to porn? Nope, not at first. Because the porn industry has been on the leading edge of digital technology since the first byte passed through a line. They will pay the big fees.

Note the "not at first". The "pay to play" system will require identifying and classifying the traffic. Identifying the traffic makes it easier to legislate it, prioritize it,and further monetize it.

The technology to manage all that already exists, although small, local ISP's and underbudgeted educational support centers make adapting to traffic scale a separate concern.
 

Lhun

New kid, be gentle!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
1,956
Reaction score
137
And as long as the net remains a free an neutral ground, there will always be a provider to step in who does not constrain content in that way.
Yes, that is the nice capitalistic theory. The problem is that it never takes important factors such as, for example, startup costs into account.
There is a good reason why certain services are only being provided by huge corporations and not small businesses. If you want to compete with a a telecommunications giant you need to create your own infrastructure, which just won't happen. Unless of course you have the government force them to rent their infrastructure to you, as happened in many countries with the privatization of phones. But then we're just talking about what kind of government controls we want.
I agree with the french supreme court on this, internet access should be considered a basic human right, which cannot be denied anyone capable of paying for it (just like electricity). And net neutrality is an essential part of that.
 

SPMiller

Prodigiously Hanged
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
11,525
Reaction score
1,988
Age
41
Location
Dallas
Website
seanpatrickmiller.com
I suppose I need to point out that some ISPs are already throttling bandwidth based on packet contents. So far, this has mostly applied to questionable usage, namely torrents and the like, which suggests there's precedent for reasonable restrictions; but without some notion of network neutrality enforced from on high, there's nothing stopping companies from arbitrarily limiting whatever traffic they like for whatever reason, up to and including anticompetitive practices.

... And ain't Ma Bell coming back together, bit by bit? Sure looks like it from my perspective.

On the bright side, maybe we'll get Bell Labs back.
 
Last edited:

Williebee

Capeless, wingless, & yet I fly.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 11, 2007
Messages
20,569
Reaction score
4,814
Location
youtu.be/QRruBVFXjnY
Website
www.ifoundaknife.com
I suppose I need to point out that some ISPs are already throttling bandwidth based on packet contents. So far, this has mostly applied to questionable usage, namely torrents and the like, which suggests there's precedent for reasonable restrictions; but without some notion of network neutrality enforced from on high, there's nothing stopping companies from arbitrarily limiting whatever traffic they like for whatever reason, up to and including anticompetitive practices.

... And ain't Ma Bell coming back together, bit by bit? Sure looks like it from my perspective.

On the bright side, maybe we'll get Bell Labs back.

True 'dat.