Outing people

I'm against outing people, except in one case - and that's the queer person working with the anti-queer-movements. Then it's gloves off.

This has never been a pretty or fair fight. We haven't come this far by being nice and patient. If we had been nice and patient and orderly, we would still be living under a huge stigma, and it would be a question of social/physical/economical survival to stay in the closet. At least this is true about some European countries. I can't really say about the situation in the US.

Outing is a powerful weapon of last resort that should be reserved for the people that work against us. Since it is such a powerful weapon, it should never be used to drag someone that is just in hiding out. That's immoral.

I read a totally ridiculous story one time where two gay teens were just two paralyzed with fear of homophobia to out themselves to anyone. They liked each other but each thought the other was straight. There was a girl who was the sister of one of the guys who knew they were both gay, but both had begged and pled with her not to tell anyone. So even though she knew they'd both be happy to find out each other was gay, she felt honor-bound not to tell them.

My reaction was that this is absurd - if you know a person is gay or any other of the lbta-whatever categories - there's no reason not to tell someone you know will be friendly to that idea.

If someone doesn't want to out themselves, doesn't matter what the secret, that's their business. Not mine.

I think outting someone like George Rekers or Roy Ashburn is not only OK, I think it's required. Both are deliberately exploiting queer communities for sex in secret, and then publicly using their positions to damage the community and queer individuals.

I had to think about this a long time. But in this case, both men were hypocrites in the extreme, damaging to the community.

sunandshadow said:

My reaction was that this is absurd - if you know a person is gay or any other of the lbta-whatever categories - there's no reason not to tell someone you know will be friendly to that idea.

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Yeah, there is.

It's not someone else's business. You don't get to decide what I or any other person does, or shares, or how we live our lives.

Not OK.

I know people who have been hurt by third party decisions like this. It is no more ok to tell a third party something you know the primary party has not made public than any other sort of gossip, whether well-meaning or not, is OK.

I'm not a proponent of outing, except in the poltical exceptions that have been noted, in the OP and elsewhere in the thread. I do however, know lots of AW people's secrets, I know who is trans stealth (and there are a few), I know who's secretly gay...and bi...and lesbigay...and...

The bidding starts later...

Why would people tell a total stranger on the internet all of this stuff, anyway?

Diana Hignutt said:

Why would people tell a total stranger on the internet all of this stuff, anyway?

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You seemed so trustworthy.

I think that people being out is good. I think that outing people against their wishes is bad. The question I struggle with is, do the ends justify the means?

For instance, Perez Hilton (who is not a good spokesman for the LGBTQ community IMO) outed Neal Patrick Harris. That was bad. But so many people have liked him since his child actor days, and now in How I Met Your Mother he plays a hilariously oversexed heterosexual. And since his outing he is a pretty awesome spokesman for the LGBTQ community, and involved in social justice stuff. Him being out is good for "the cause" as it were. Average Sheltered Joe Heterosexual can see NPH as a cool and funny guy, and see that he's gay, and maybe think that that's okay. NPH says that he is happy to be out as well. But if he hadn't been outed first, he might still be in the closet. So, do the ends justify the means?

I wish all LGBTQ celebrities (and non-celebrities) who can come out safely* would be out. IMO, as long as we are hiding what we are, we are somewhat complicit in perpetuating the idea that what we are is bad or wrong or shameful. There is a rapper-turned-actress-turned-covergirl-model who could do massive amounts of good in the world by coming out of the closet, and I don't know why she doesn't. Then again, I'm not the boss of everybody, unfortunately.

*I know some people would not be safe in their communities if they were known to be LGBTQ. (I am not out 100% of the time--in some places it seems like a dangerous proposition. My partner and I were threatened and nearly got physically assaulted on a city bus while not doing anything overtly gay, by a crazy homophobic dude with good gaydar.) I also see why someone like Jodie Foster would never out herself to the public, even though she seems to be out in her private life.

Jodie Foster is an interesting example. She is regularly living her life, or was, with her partner and their kids. She wasn't hiding anything, at all, she just didn't have a giant neon Pride flag.

I am annoyed by the demands the public makes on celebrities -- it seems awfully vicarious to me, and often, voyeuristic.

Medievalist said:

I am annoyed by the demands the public makes on celebrities -- it seems awfully vicarious to me, and often, voyeuristic.

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Isn't that the point of celebrity culture?

Shadow Dragon said:

I'm kinda torn on this one. Outing someone for personal gain, like what the tabloids try to do to celebrities, is wrong. However, outing a public figure who has been fighting against glbtq rights, then it gets a little tricky. Outing them could undercut anti-glbtq rights groups or damage an ex-gay organization. It probably isn't the moral thing to do, but it may help people in the long run.

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But these are two extremes. Most people are in the middle.

So, is it right to venture into the middle?

In 1990, when my ex (cross-dressing, bisexual, thinks he might be transgendered but still uncertain) finally outted himself to me after almost 6 years of marriage and over a decade of being friends, he was very nervous and uncertain, but couldn't take the burden of keeping the news from me anymore.

I'll admit, I outted him to several of our friends and family because I had to talk to deal with the emotional blow myself. I only told people I thought--we both thought--could be trusted to keep the secret. I didn't always ask his opinion beforehand, but usually did.

As with any secret, one friend tells their spouse (who was also a mutual friend), who then came back to my ex for confirmation. My ex owned up to it.

Little by little, the people most important and close to us either found out or, eventually, was told outright by my ex (like his family was--he just told him).

The entire process took about 6 months or so, about the same time as I filed divorce papers.

When the divorce was over, he was able to openly explore his sexuality for the first time, discover things about himself and is still trying to figure out just how he really works and what's best for him. Which we both think was good.

That's one of the better-case scenarios, as far as I can tell. I didn't out him out of visciousness, but it was purely selfish on my part for doing so. Without that ability to talk to friends and figure things out if there was a way I could keep our family together, keep any kind of relationship with him, if I ever even wanted sex with him again, our marriage would've turned into a hideous nightmare instead of the nearly-friendly, occasionally jovial event it was.

I can't think I was wrong. Other people might think so. Opinions differ as widely as the circumstances and the individuals, so I think it's one of those things that we can't really judge.

No. If a person opts for the closet, as sad as that may be, it is no one's business. No matter how large the strides that have been made in the area of BLBT recognition, the dreary, and dangerous fact for some is the world remains a deadly place. No one should be forced to live a life he or she isn't prepared to live--no matter how noble the sentiment behind outing them may be.
That said, I believe that people who live out their lives in the public arena do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy.
C
...But he that filches from me my good name
Robs me of that which not enriches him
And makes me poor indeed.

DeleyanLee said:

I'll admit, I outted him to several of our friends and family because I had to talk to deal with the emotional blow myself. I only told people I thought--we both thought--could be trusted to keep the secret. I didn't always ask his opinion beforehand, but usually did.

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Thank god he didn't end up beaten to death in some back alley somewhere.

Shadow Dragon said:

This thread idea popped into my head after reading Mac's and Medievalist's posts on the personal question thread. Is is ever ok to out someone (ie expose their queerness to world)?

I'm kinda torn on this one. Outing someone for personal gain, like what the tabloids try to do to celebrities, is wrong. However, outing a public figure who has been fighting against glbtq rights, then it gets a little tricky. Outing them could undercut anti-glbtq rights groups or damage an ex-gay organization. It probably isn't the moral thing to do, but it may help people in the long run. So perhaps that's a situation where the ends do justify the means.

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I don't think so. I would never do it because I think it's massive violation.

Maxinquaye said:

Thank god he didn't end up beaten to death in some back alley somewhere.

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QFT

It's one of those 20/20 hindsight things. I can see now why that wasn't a good thing, but at the time I was in the grips of some powerful emotions: betrayal, confusion, guilt, upset, questioning everything about what I thought our relationship was. It's really hard to think clearly through what seems like unlikely ramifications at times like that. Part of it was the way he told me, part of it was my own emotional make-up.

However, after knowing me for as long as he had, if he didn't know that my first reflex was to go talk to a certain two girlfriends, then he was more deluded than I was. There is some part of me that suspects that he had me do the outting for me to these people so he didn't have to take that step himself--this was a reoccurring system for him, FWIW, getting me to do something he wanted done when he didn't want to do it himself. Might ask him next time we talk (we're going to be grandparents! we're talking a lot lately). I'm sure he'll tell me. We've had extremely frank discussions about all kinds of things in recent years.

As I said before, each instance will likely be different. I don't think it's something to be encouraged across the board--but it can be good in some cases.

DeleyanLee said:

I can't think I was wrong. Other people might think so. Opinions differ as widely as the circumstances and the individuals, so I think it's one of those things that we can't really judge.

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I'm not sure that really counts as outting, frankly--it was about you as much as him.

You were potentially at risk because of him.

There are reasons we have concepts like "situational ethics," and it's not always easy to decide what to do.

DeleyanLee said:

QFT

It's one of those 20/20 hindsight things. I can see now why that wasn't a good thing, but at the time I was in the grips of some powerful emotions: betrayal, confusion, guilt, upset, questioning everything about what I thought our relationship was. It's really hard to think clearly through what seems like unlikely ramifications at times like that. Part of it was the way he told me, part of it was my own emotional make-up.

However, after knowing me for as long as he had, if he didn't know that my first reflex was to go talk to a certain two girlfriends, then he was more deluded than I was. There is some part of me that suspects that he had me do the outting for me to these people so he didn't have to take that step himself--this was a reoccurring system for him, FWIW, getting me to do something he wanted done when he didn't want to do it himself. Might ask him next time we talk (we're going to be grandparents! we're talking a lot lately). I'm sure he'll tell me. We've had extremely frank discussions about all kinds of things in recent years.

As I said before, each instance will likely be different. I don't think it's something to be encouraged across the board--but it can be good in some cases.

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Medievalist said:

I'm not sure that really counts as outting, frankly--it was about you as much as him.

You were potentially at risk because of him.

There are reasons we have concepts like "situational ethics," and it's not always easy to decide what to do.

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I agree, pretty much. The reply I wrote above was much longer, but I deleted everything but that line. My first impulse was to slag DeleyanLee for being so irresponsible, but as I thought about it I got more nuanced. I can't say what was right or wrong, because in a marriage and a relationship there are two people.

It's easy to root for the people that come out of the closet, that dare take the step for themselves to start to live truthfully. It's easy to forget the people around that have to handle the new situation, and that their lives get turned upside down by a revelation like that too.

Which is why I deleted most of my reply, because although I think you can't really trust friends and family 100% - they'll not think about the seriousness and will gossip, and the wrong people can overhear - it's not really for me to decide how the people left behind strive to cope.

Maxinquaye said:

My first impulse was to slag DeleyanLee for being so irresponsible, but as I thought about it I got more nuanced. I can't say what was right or wrong, because in a marriage and a relationship there are two people.

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This is always tricky stuff. And yes, there are two people.

The primary cause of STDs (including things like UTI and yeast infections) for women are men, or, women who have sex with men, and then have sex with women.

This has historical precedent by the way, for centuries. You really are having sex with every person your partner has had sex with, ever, in terms of biological vectors, no matter what sex you are.

Maxinquaye said:

It's easy to root for the people that come out of the closet, that dare take the step for themselves to start to live truthfully. It's easy to forget the people around that have to handle the new situation, and that their lives get turned upside down by a revelation like that too.

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It gets very very tricky. And their are rights for the hetero partner, too. They have a right to not keep their partners' secret--just as much as they have a responsibility to be careful of their partner's privacy.

Maxinquaye said:

Which is why I deleted most of my reply, because although I think you can't really trust friends and family 100% - they'll not think about the seriousness and will gossip, and the wrong people can overhear - it's not really for me to decide how the people left behind strive to cope.

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This is always a tough case-by-case thing. It's one of those things where I ask who benefits? And is it necessary?

I think anti-LGBT public figures should be outted. I think they should be outted because their actions promote discrimination, and sometimes violence, against gay people. Self-defense is justified.

I don't think anyone else should be outted against their will.

I am not in favor of outing people. Some have very valid and good reasons for being in the closet. Coming from a community with a deep conservative streak,I have friends who choose to stay closeted because the cost of coming out is too high.


BUT when certain folks are against gay rights and regularly pal around with anti-gay folks,but know they are gay,I say go in on them. GET EM. Nothing worse than someone so full of self hatred that they would willingly damage the community that they are apart of ad should be helping.

I can't imagine a situation where I'd feel justified in violating someone's privacy like that.

(Deleyan's situation doesn't seem quite like an outing to me though, more like needing to talk to someone trustworthy about marital issues, and that required full disclosure)