Men writing about women who love women, and other miscellanies.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bartholomew

Comic guy
Kind Benefactor
Poetry Book Collaborator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 2, 2006
Messages
8,507
Reaction score
1,956
Location
Kansas! Again.
In my urban fantasy novel, I have two female protagonists who grow fairly close to one another as the story unfolds. I'm aiming the novel at 20somethings, and specifically toward the crowd that is sick of romantic subplots. (This market exists. I CAN FEEL IT.)

Imagine my surprise when one of my betas commented that he found it interesting that I was writing about a lesbian couple.

Blink. Blink. Mk. I've never explored either character's sexuality, beyond one of them lamenting that she'll never have a boyfriend, very early in the novel.

Like all feedback, I can do three things. Ignore it. Revise against it. Or embrace it.

And the more I think about embracing it, the more I like the idea.

I'm worried about a couple points, though. The first being that, as a male author, I think there's a perception that I have no business writing about lesbians. The second being -- if I have a character that is gay in addition to rebelling against societal norms, I'll have someone who could easily be construed as a crude stereotype, when that was never the intention at all. So if I do it wrong, I'm simultaneously alienating gay readers AND the strictly "hetero-normal = good" crowd. I don't mind purposefully excluding a certain type of reader, but not if I'm also excluding the type of reader I'd hope to attract!

But if I continue writing as if neither character has a sex drive, I'm leaving this massive gap in their souls. I could certainly have them be in love without adding a romantic sub-plot -- make their relationship a part of the character arc. I even like the depth that would give them, especially as an explanation for their actions later in the novel.

So... my question is, does an urban fantasy without a romantic subplot appeal to you? And if I decide to run with this beta-reader's idea that my characters are gay, will my own gender cause a disconnect?

I'm not asking if I, as a male, have the ability to write a lesbian relationship. I do. Love is love, and people who think that love has to fit into certain molds are grossly in error, at least as far as my opinion goes. I'm asking if the reader's perception of men in general will make a lesbian relationship in a male-written text taboo.

Thanks for the input.

Afterthought:

This is my first thread in this forum, and I feel like I'm stampeding over eggshells. So if my post is inappropriate, or offensive, I apologize.
 
Last edited:

Caitlin Black

Wild one
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 17, 2009
Messages
44,834
Reaction score
2,928
Age
39
Location
The exact centre of all of existence
I've written about lesbians.

Of course, if that ever gets published, it'll be under a female pen name. ALL my books will be under a female pen name, regardless of genre, as I'm a trans woman.

It probably helps me know what I'm talking about by having been with woman, identifying as a lesbian, been with a girl who identified me as a lesbian, and fallen in love with 2 lesbians in quick succession (who wound up with each other and never so much as touched me...) - so yeah, I'm all over the lesbian scene in my emotive spectrum.

I worried that a man writing lesbians wouldn't be received well... but you gotta do what you gotta do. If you choose a female pen name, that's fine. If you take the risk and publish as a man writing lesbians, I'm sure it'll work out well enough.

As per UF without romance... I'm not a big reader of UF anyway, but I loves me some romantic subplot. Almost always SUBplot, not the main focus of the story. If it's the main focus of the story, I get bogged down in emotions that are hard to deal with, due to the whole "there must be conflict" thing... If there's an action/adventure/quirky plot, and a romantic undercurrent, those sorts of books I just fly through and enjoy every minute of it.

But like I said, I don't read an awful lot of UF.
 

Wayne K

Banned
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
21,564
Reaction score
8,082
That's a tough question. I think a man who took time to get to know lesbians could write it well, but I don't know how the audience would react to it. In my romance I have a female detective and a forensics expert who fall in love, but their relationship isn't the focus.

I would do some research before I wrote the whole thing.

Asking here is a good first step
 

jennontheisland

the world is at my command
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 17, 2006
Messages
7,270
Reaction score
2,125
Location
down by the bay
Considering the number of women who openly write m/m romance I think it's silly that men can't write f/f fiction or romance under 'male' names.
 

Shadow Dragon

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
Messages
4,773
Reaction score
261
Location
In the land of dragons
Don't worry about the eggshells. We've been meaning to clean them up. Anyways, take the story in whichever direction you prefer. If you want the two female leads to be in a relationship, go for it. Though I would suggest reading some other f/f romance stories first.
 

Tasmin21

They will come from below...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 16, 2007
Messages
4,558
Reaction score
3,859
Location
Elysia
To answer your UF question first: Yes, there is a huge market in UF fans who just don't care to see a romantic sub-plot. I touched on that with my own book, about a happily married man. This isn't to say there won't be tension or drama in his relationship with his wife someday, but he's not out running around trying to get laid by every damsel in distress that crosses his path. And a LOT of people have said how refreshing it is to see such a relationship in UF. So to answer that question of yours, yes, there is a market for it.

Second: I hope your gender wouldn't cause a disconnect (it wouldn't in my mind) but what a marketing department might think is totally different. I'm writing under my initials instead of my very female name, because of my male protagonist.

I have a different UF in the works that involves an openly gay male protag. I don't know how it'll be received, and a little part of me worries that I'll get busted for writing such, being the very straight female that I am. Only time will tell. I can say, though, that if someone told me "change that MC to straight and we'll publish it" that I wouldn't. That's not who he is.

Ultimately, you have to write true to your story and your characters. Won't always make you popular, but I bet it'll make a damn good story.
 

Bartholomew

Comic guy
Kind Benefactor
Poetry Book Collaborator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 2, 2006
Messages
8,507
Reaction score
1,956
Location
Kansas! Again.
Fair enough.

I'm toying with a false, androgynous name. My initials look masculine. And they're a bit absurd. (BMTMEK o.o)
 

Mara

Clever User Title
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 21, 2009
Messages
1,961
Reaction score
343
Location
United States
Your gender wouldn't cause a disconnect for me or (probably) most other readers as long as you treated like you would (or should) any other central element of your story. That is, you do research and try to make it believable.

Most of the stuff where I've seen a huge disconnect is in exploitative erotica or in older novels where LGBT characters were never central characters and the author didn't bother doing any research. (It doesn't even have to be a huge amount of research, even.)

But as for having no romantic subplot, I think that could work as well. You shouldn't feel obligated to have one in your story, especially if you don't really think it fits. Regardless of the genders of the people involved, if it's not something you really want to include, it's probably going to sound contrived and awkward.
 

Kitty Pryde

i luv you giant bear statue
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
9,090
Reaction score
2,165
Location
Lost Angeles
I don't see a problem with a guy writing about lesbians. But TBH gay main or secondary characters are few and far between in urban fantasy (especially the current more limited definition of UF). I've only come across one gay secondary character vampire, who was a pretty awful stereotype (and he had a gang of stereotypical gay servants, sigh). I'd hate to say don't write it. But do figure out what sort of market there may be for it. Regular UF seems to thrive on sameness, (more so than contemporary fantasy where I see a decent number of gay characters).
 

Deleted member 42

Fair enough.

I'm toying with a false, androgynous name. My initials look masculine. And they're a bit absurd. (BMTMEK o.o)

Two initials and a surname.

C. T. Clamp

C. J. Cherryh

J. M. Engh
Etc.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Tasmin21

They will come from below...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 16, 2007
Messages
4,558
Reaction score
3,859
Location
Elysia
As a point of interest: Black Blade Blues A recent UF book with a lesbian protagonist that has received some flak for the protagonist being either too stereotypically lesbian, or not lesbian enough, depending on what review you read.

Haven't read it myself, but it might be a good research point.
 

Alan Yee

Still Here!
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 16, 2005
Messages
6,029
Reaction score
1,446
I have a different UF in the works that involves an openly gay male protag. I don't know how it'll be received, and a little part of me worries that I'll get busted for writing such, being the very straight female that I am. Only time will tell. I can say, though, that if someone told me "change that MC to straight and we'll publish it" that I wouldn't. That's not who he is.

You'll tell us once it's ready to be published, right? Because I want to read it. There's a good number of traditional and contemporary fantasies with GLBTQ characters, but I haven't heard of very many urban fantasies with gay protagonists.
 

Tasmin21

They will come from below...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 16, 2007
Messages
4,558
Reaction score
3,859
Location
Elysia
If it ever get thats far, ya'll will be the first to know. I hope it does. Happen to really love the world I've built with that one.
 

Exile87

New kid, be gentle!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
250
Reaction score
57
Location
New Haven, CT
I personally see no problem whatsoever with a guy writing about lesbian characters. The author's gender shouldn't have anything to do with it. I'm sure there are plenty of gay and lesbian authors who write straight characters, and no one bats an eye. Why should the opposite be any different?

Do you have to be white to write a white character? A spy to write a spy?

I do happen to be gay myself, and I include several gay supporting characters in my thriller. But I also include bi characters, and I'm planning to introduce a character as lesbian in the next book. And of course I have plenty of heterosexuals as well. The world is a big, diverse place. Why should my characters' sexuality be any different?

To answer your initial question, even if it is taboo, go for it! It certainly shouldn't be taboo, as far as I'm concerned!
 

Bartholomew

Comic guy
Kind Benefactor
Poetry Book Collaborator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 2, 2006
Messages
8,507
Reaction score
1,956
Location
Kansas! Again.
Thanks for helping me sort this out, everyone. :)
 

Caitlin Black

Wild one
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 17, 2009
Messages
44,834
Reaction score
2,928
Age
39
Location
The exact centre of all of existence
If you want enjoyment while you research, you could watch The L Word... I approve most muchly of this show. And there's a fair sampling of different "types" of lesbians (even though they're all unique, sometimes they fall into "types")...

And asking the resident lesbians here in the QLTBAG couldn't hurt...
 

MacAllister

'Twas but a dream of thee
Staff member
Boss Mare
Administrator
Super Moderator
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
VPX
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
22,010
Reaction score
10,707
Location
Out on a limb
Website
macallisterstone.com
Ugh. The L Word is to lesbians sorta like The Bachelor is to straight people. This particular real-life lesbian finds it unwatchable and ludicrous.
 

friendlyhobo

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 15, 2010
Messages
314
Reaction score
23
Location
Satellite of Love
Ugh. The L Word is to lesbians sorta like The Bachelor is to straight people. This particular real-life lesbian finds it unwatchable and ludicrous.

It's ludicrous and that's almost (is) why I watched it. It's the same strange desire that makes me stop on day time soap operas. How can this exist? How can someone derive the intended type of entertainment from it? I don't... understand.
 

Caitlin Black

Wild one
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 17, 2009
Messages
44,834
Reaction score
2,928
Age
39
Location
The exact centre of all of existence
I had no idea The L Word was so reviled. To me it seems like they're just people, as real as any other fictional character... but then, I've known some pretty stereotypical lesbians in my day...

Hmm.

I still like the show, though. (Of course, this might have something to do with my major crush on Shane, Alice and Jenny... :p)
 

friendlyhobo

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 15, 2010
Messages
314
Reaction score
23
Location
Satellite of Love
I had no idea The L Word was so reviled. To me it seems like they're just people, as real as any other fictional character... but then, I've known some pretty stereotypical lesbians in my day...

Hmm.

I still like the show, though. (Of course, this might have something to do with my major crush on Shane, Alice and Jenny... :p)

Now see, I was seduced by the Hate Jenny band wagon. And I already crushed on Leisha Hailey (Alice) because of her sweet-ass musical career.
so yeah. /end derailment.
 

Caitlin Black

Wild one
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 17, 2009
Messages
44,834
Reaction score
2,928
Age
39
Location
The exact centre of all of existence
I admit Jenny isn't the most likable of people, but I think she's hot, so yeah... ETA: (And okay, I might just be attracted to lunatics for some god-unknown reason...)

*investigates Leisha Hailey's musical career*
 

efreysson

Closer than ever
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 23, 2007
Messages
1,618
Reaction score
101
Location
Iceland
As a point of interest: Black Blade Blues A recent UF book with a lesbian protagonist that has received some flak for the protagonist being either too stereotypically lesbian, or not lesbian enough, depending on what review you read.

Huh. I'm not gay but if that book really is being condemned for being too much AND too little, then clearly some people need to stop assuming they can speak for everyone and decide what's gay "enough". There are all kinds of straight people, and all kinds of gay people.

Anyway, the thread title caught my attention because I'm a dude and I'm nurturing this idea for an epic, action-packed fantasy with a lesbian in the main cast. I feel anyone has the right to write about any kind of romance, as long as it's done realistically. I mean, I'm not a Russian soldier, but I can write about one as long as I do it well, right?
My biggest concern is actually just getting the "romance" part of "lesbian romance" right. I'm more adept at writing gritty stuff.
 

plunderpuss

Patron Saint of Sarcasm
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 14, 2007
Messages
383
Reaction score
107
Location
PNW
Website
inkshark.net
As a point of interest: Black Blade Blues A recent UF book with a lesbian protagonist that has received some flak for the protagonist being either too stereotypically lesbian, or not lesbian enough, depending on what review you read.

I've read it, and I know the author. He's a very sensitive, considerate man, and I think it comes out in the book, though he hit a few pitfalls I would have warned him away from if he'd posted here first ;D haha If you want to learn lessons from him, here are my humble conclusions.

What he did wrong that you can avoid: Wrote a story dealing with coming out. Gay people and savvy allies will always call that a stereotype. It's why hetero audiences seemed floored by Brokeback Mountain while Dan Savage got a complaint that the gay people in at least one theater were laughing.

What he did right that you could repeat: He modeled the character's behavior on people he knew. Then he had lesbian friends beta the book and give him feedback.

Good on you for being cautious about what you're doing. That's the first step to doing it right. Good luck :)
 

Maxinquaye

That cheeky buggerer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 10, 2009
Messages
10,361
Reaction score
1,032
Location
In your mind
Website
maxoneverything.wordpress.com
What he did wrong that you can avoid: Wrote a story dealing with coming out. Gay people and savvy allies will always call that a stereotype. It's why hetero audiences seemed floored by Brokeback Mountain while Dan Savage got a complaint that the gay people in at least one theater were laughing.

You should never write for the gays or the gay allies. THose aren't the target audience. This rankles me much. A coming out story is not a cliché for a thirteen year old boy struggling with some very strange urges and dreams and hopes. When that 13-year old gets a crush on a male class mate, instead of on the girls, it's pretty traumatic - given the social darwinism prevelant at most schools.

And the "sophisticated gays" would rather see books that navel-gaze about their particular little corner of the gay world? No no no.

I have a plan to write a coming out story one day. And my audience will be kids out there, not the bitter old queens in SoHo. :)
 
Last edited:

Mara

Clever User Title
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 21, 2009
Messages
1,961
Reaction score
343
Location
United States
I'd definitely say that reading more coming out stories in all those fantasy/sci-fi novels I read as a teenager probably would have really helped me.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.