sex and violence....

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preyer

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any opinion on the connection between the two? or is there even a connection?
 

scfirenice

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Sex is inherently violent. By definition anyway. Even in it's softest most gentle form, it is still penetration of one into another, the giving of the flesh. Now don't spam me with I can't believe she's saying this mail, it's true. Really think about it.
 

preyer

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so, if i say something offensive (it's been known to happen), am i committing violence upon someone's brain? if a character masturbates, is he committing self-violence? lol. i'd say here that rape is an act of violence, not sex. in the context of a horror movie, most violence isn't invited or even reciprocated like a sexual act is.

hm, yes, sex is the penetration of one into another, but it's also the receiving of that penetration. not getting all hippie here, just the intent is different. violence often isn't a consentual act, and less so in horror movies where the protag is forced into action, but would otherwise be happier sitting at home watching 'friends' reruns. why is it sex and violence are such a perfect yin-yang, like black and white or pamela sue anderson and sillicone?
 

Jamesaritchie

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Sex/violence.

scfirenice said:
Sex is inherently violent. By definition anyway. Even in it's softest most gentle form, it is still penetration of one into another, the giving of the flesh. Now don't spam me with I can't believe she's saying this mail, it's true. Really think about it.

I have thught about it. It's truly silly.
 

veinglory

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I penetrate a lot of things non-violently: keyholes, buttonholes etc. I think that whenever tab B is designed to go into slot A it can do so non-violently to the benefit of all ;)

There is no innate connection between the two IMHO. Violence can be one way to get sex, there is S&M which somethimes gets quite vigorous--but for a lot fo people sex hasn't got much to do with violence.
 

Rabe

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veinglory said:
I penetrate a lot of things non-violently: keyholes, buttonholes etc. I think that whenever tab B is designed to go into slot A it can do so non-violently to the benefit of all ;)

There is no innate connection between the two IMHO. Violence can be one way to get sex, there is S&M which somethimes gets quite vigorous--but for a lot fo people sex hasn't got much to do with violence.

S&M and it's various subvariants isn't about *violence* either. It's about the stimulation of pain into pleasure for those that go into that kind of thing.

It's probably one of the most structured forms of sex out there.


As for the original question, I do find that often in horror sex and violence are intermingled far too often. Take the current ideal of 'romantic' vampires for example. So many writers are using the vampire as a creature of sexual energy, and their feeding on people as a form of passion/sex.

To me, that's utterly ridiculous. We are food to these creatures and I would think that - just as we would find abhorrently deviant those that would look at a cow and think "gotta get me some of that!" - the vampire community would look upon those who look at humans as objects of sex to be abhorrently deviant.

Then you take into consideration Anne Rice's apparent contention that the vampirism curse also makes everyone homosexual, and you've got an even deeper link between sex/violence.

Rabe...
 

veinglory

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Most modern vampire characters (heroic ones anyway) do not kill. So that makes them more like a parasite than a predator -- and although having the moves put on you by a giant mosquito may not make a lot of sense it isn't completely irrational...

"Then you take into consideration Anne Rice's apparent contention that the vampirism curse also makes everyone homosexual, and you've got an even deeper link between sex/violence."

How so?
 

Writer2011

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I would have to agree with Rabe on the S&M thing. It is one of the most structured forms of sex out there.

As for sex and violence in horror movies, well you see it in just about every single one. This is how I see it... When the killer finds his/her victim they seem to get some kind of pleasure out of literally taking the life of another. Maybe i've confused you all..:)
 

veinglory

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It depends on the definition of violence I suppose. Some S&M involves some mild pain and hitting with impliments--although no lasting harm or coersion. I'm not anti S&M, just saying it is a case were sex and smacking go together.
 

preyer

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doesn't s&m usually have the element of domination attached to it, too? i mean beyond a little smack to the rumpi for stimulation, which i don't consider s&m. domination and bondage, though, go hand-in-hand with s&m, eh?

so, sex with a vampire would be considered sexual deviance? i really liked the cow analogy, though it doesn't fit when talking about vampires, where, though 'dead,' they *were* once alive humans. there's still a connection there.

i only read 'interview with the vampire' by rice, but, yeah, there was a definite gay vibe happening there.

vampires, inasmuch as dracula goes, was always linked with a kind of sexual predator. interesting, though, that were there such things, people would indeed seek them out. duh. i think the misunderstanding there lies in the idea that, as a vampire, you'd feel the same sexual euphoria as you do when you were the victim and under its hypnotic spell. of course, the truth of the matter is that as the undead, sex is probably unsatisfying. but does that say a vampire can't have an orgasm? he probably can and that's not the issue with a vampire, i think. i'd venture to say a vampire is seeking the intimacy of death through the impetus of sexual allure. that is, sex and the intimacy of blood and death is about as comparible as bubble-gum and filet mignon, only as humans we're under the impression that bubble-gum is as good as it gets, and this stranger's candy is some good stuff. you could even say another major human necessity, eating, is covered here in one package.

i could go on with this, but i'm going to stop here and see if there are any more replies. not to mention trying to keep a potentially huge reply down to a readable size.
 

Writer2011

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Yes it could go on forever... I definitely agree there was a gay vibe in Interview with the Vampire...

And yes S&M does have domination attached to it...but that's an entirely different subject.. :)
 

Rabe

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WARNING: This reply contains conversations of a sexual nature. Parental discretion is advised.

preyer said:
doesn't s&m usually have the element of domination attached to it, too? i mean beyond a little smack to the rumpi for stimulation, which i don't consider s&m. domination and bondage, though, go hand-in-hand with s&m, eh?

The 'domination' is mutually consensual and therefore does not fit the definition of 'domination' you are trying to pigeonhole it into. It's not like schoolyard bullies going around trying to get people cowering before their grand might - which is an act of mental violence.

In S&M, however, the 'domination' is about giving up control for a short time - but the one being 'dominated' is always the one in control (as long as they remember the 'safe word' at least!)

preyer said:
so, sex with a vampire would be considered sexual deviance? i really liked the cow analogy, though it doesn't fit when talking about vampires, where, though 'dead,' they *were* once alive humans. there's still a connection there.

I don't know, you don't consider necrophilia to be sexual deviancy? I'm pretty sure most psychiatrists do. ;)

As for the 'connection' and 'vampires once being alive': So were zombies, you don't see people going around wanting to screw them.

And amazingly enough, people aren't turning brain craving zombies into the type of creature they want to jump onto their backs and spread their legs for. Now, why is it that vampires - which feed on humans (which, to use your analogy, makes them at the least cannibals - again, not sexually stimulating) are made into such 'romantic' creatures, yet zombies aren't?

preyer said:
i only read 'interview with the vampire' by rice, but, yeah, there was a definite gay vibe happening there.

I threw Armand's book across the room once he was given 'the dark gift' and suddenly became a flaming homosexual. I've not read another one of her vampire books since. (Please note: I have *no* problem with homosexuality, homosexuals or those who are or practice the former and latter in any form - my issue lies with becoming a vampire also making one homosexual, as if homosexuality were a disease.)

preyer said:
vampires, inasmuch as dracula goes, was always linked with a kind of sexual predator. interesting, though, that were there such things, people would indeed seek them out.

Only since the Victorian era, and - quite frankly - not even really then. It's more modern times with the 'handsome' actors making vampires into romantic figures.

preyer said:
duh. i think the misunderstanding there lies in the idea that, as a vampire, you'd feel the same sexual euphoria as you do when you were the victim and under its hypnotic spell.

So, then this begs the question, does eating a McBurger make you horny?

preyer said:
of course, the truth of the matter is that as the undead, sex is probably unsatisfying. but does that say a vampire can't have an orgasm?

Oddly enough, I've had this question come up in a group of friends. (other questions/discussions involved how you could NEVER have an orthodox Jewish vampire and how it is that vampires get drunk)

But here's the problem with the 'current' thinking about vampires. It goes like this:

Vampires, once turned into vampires, are then in some form of stasis. They never grow old, they never grow younger, they never change. They are what they are. The best they become is more/less powerful. The only changes that are made to them are *cosmetic* when they feed off human chattel, their appearence becomes more human as they have 'blood flowing through their veins' giving them the 'semblance' of life.

So, being stuck in this stasis means that they may be able to have an orgasm, once. But once the stored fluids are used up, then they're used up, their shooting dry, so to speak. So, no more orgasms. Well, no mure fulfillment of the refractory cycle at least. Is it possible to have an orgasm without ejaculation? Sex therapists/researchers/medical doctors/researchers are better equipped to handle that. But as I seem to recall, no.

Now, why only the stored fluids and no more? Because if the body is in stasis, where they are no longer growing older - that predisposes the idea that they are no longer involved in cellular replication - the process by which a lifeform grows and then grows older and begins dying. It's also the process by which humans produce the necessary ingredients for orgasm (whether male or female) so therefore, no more orgasm.

Having said that, I'm not sure that *I*, as a male, would be too interested in having sexual relations with a female vampire. I mean, it'd be really dry, now wouldn't it? Just imagine what would happen if I were to forget to bring the KY, or at the very least, not apply enough. Talk about scratchy! And that would *definitely* not be safe sex. Plus, the whole time she's engaging in sexual acts (especially oral) I'd be wondering "Now, is this pleasure for her or is she considering it just a rather large, thick straw?" I mean, that would DEFINITELY be a mood killer.

(ever worry that I have *way* too much time to think? So do I.)

preyer said:
i could go on with this, but i'm going to stop here and see if there are any more replies. not to mention trying to keep a potentially huge reply down to a readable size.

The only problem is that you're proving the argument about viewing humans as 'food' and therefore vampires who sexually desire humans being sexual deviants and not showing them to be anymore a romantic figure than that of other incredibly deviant personality types.

But, in the most interesting discussion I've had yet on these boards!

Rabe...
 

Euan H.

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Rabe said:
Only since the Victorian era, and - quite frankly - not even really then. It's more modern times with the 'handsome' actors making vampires into romantic figures.
Right on. Vampires were not originally seuxally attractive (or mesmerizing or whatever). Check out Count Orlok in the movie Nosferatu:

Orlock.JPG


Sexy. The wikipedia article on vampires says that "It seems that until the 19th century, vampires in Europe were thought to be hideous monsters rather than the debonair vampire made popular by later fictional treatments. "

IMHO, just reverting to previous ideas about vampires (hideously ugly being tha main one) would be enough to breathe new life into any story about them.

Just my 2c.
 

Cathy C

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To me, I guess, I look at the correlation of sex and violence as having adrenaline and endorphins in common.

Both sex and violence offer heightened sensation for a short time. If you're being chased with fear for your life, adrenaline kicks in to keep you alive. Afterward is a rush and then a sudden drop of energy and muscle relaxation when the bottom falls out. When sexually aroused, nearly the same group of sensations kick in. So a lot of people that are wired in a certain way think of one when the other occurs. Sports have the same effect on many people. Some would rather go to a ball game with 50,000 other people to get that endorphin rush, while others need to be naked and bound to achieve the same height.

Not everybody links sex and violence but for those who do, one will trigger the other by association.

As for vampires, shapeshifters, etc., dark and scary and "loss of control" are the central themes --- once again back to the endorphin rush. For a lot of paranormal romance readers, there's also the concept of "touching the soul of the soulless" (otherwise known as "Only MY love can reform the ultimate bad guy.") ;)

Just my .02!
 

StoryG27

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Sex and violence CAN (not usually, and definitly not always) be about control or the loss of control.
 

Tertius

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Both sex and violence sell. That's all. Otherwise there is no inherent link between the two. It's only kinky the first time.
 

Rabe

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Euan H. said:
IMHO, just reverting to previous ideas about vampires (hideously ugly being tha main one) would be enough to breathe new life into any story about them.

Just my 2c.

Unfortunately for me, I've promised a friend, fan and beta reader that I'd write a story with vampires in it, despite *despising*most vampire stories. So, I'm going to go back to the original idea of what vampires were -

blood sucking undead who could care less about the sexuality of the victim. All they care about is getting their McCopper shake.

Rabe...
 

PattiTheWicked

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Cathy C said:
Both sex and violence offer heightened sensation for a short time. If you're being chased with fear for your life, adrenaline kicks in to keep you alive. Afterward is a rush and then a sudden drop of energy and muscle relaxation when the bottom falls out. When sexually aroused, nearly the same group of sensations kick in. So a lot of people that are wired in a certain way think of one when the other occurs. Sports have the same effect on many people.

I think you've hit it, Cathy. It's the rush of adrenaline that is the connection.

Many many years ago, I worked for a fire department. I was one of only three women who worked with about thirty guys, and let me tell you, coming back from a fire, EVERYONE was feeling randy. When you've got that rush on, sex seems like a logical way to release and relax. For some people, I imagine watching a scary movie gets them wound up in the same way.

I suspect, however, another reason people see a correlation between sex and violence is because in movies, violence is often portrayed as sexualized -- the serial killer always stalks the dumb chick who runs through the woods wearing nothing but her panties.

If I ever have to escape a serial killer, I'm gonna wear my sweatpants and a big-*** pair of Kevlar-toed boots.
 

preyer

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zombies are rotted out, can't speak in anything other than grunts, and just lay there. in other words, they're lousy lays. vampires, at least, give the impression of being alive. so their heart doesn't beat, so what? i mean, how picky are we, anyway? lol.

no, i don't think i'm pigeonholing s&m.

i don't have a problem with homosexuals either as long as they're not grabbing my asss. i don't have a problem with pygmies, but that doesn't mean i want to read about them.

i always thought rice considered the characters as being liberated from their mortal ideals, and that's where the gay vibe came into play. could be wrong. people may not agree with the implication that 'absolute freedom' is a path to homosexuality, and i would be one of them. nor would someone want to suggest that absolute freedom leads to deviance. not only do i think that's not necessarily true, but that's also saying homosexuality is a form of sexual deviance.

McBurgers supposedly do contain chemicals designed to be addictive. at least if you believe what the anti-golden arches folk might spout.

is sex with a vampire sexual deviance? would a guy nail a hot vampire chick? of course he would, assuming the flesh was warm. this doesn't go for everyone, naturally, but also consider the vampire's spell comes into play and then a lot of what a person would or wouldn't do becomes moot. true, though, it was the victorian era vampire i'm talking about, but it extends beyond h'wood. afair from reading the unabridged version from the sixth grade, i do want to say there was a sexuality implied which i'm sure came into play during the play version. of course h'wood played that up to the further extent allowable at the time. showing 'nosferatu' as an example of 'not always' doesn't really prove much, as that example is, to my knowledge, the only exception. broken down into some kind of % of vampire-related material in the 20th century and i think someone would be hard-pressed to squeeze out more than 5% that essentially doesn't follow the stereotype of vampire/sensuality/sexuality thing. in other words, the vast majority of dracula-esque material has the vampire as a pretty sexual being. pre-victorian era dracul tales, i can't say, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was *some* sort of aspect of that to the tale.

talking about cellular aspects, if he can have an orgasm, doesn't that also suggest that his hair grows and he goes to the bathroom? statis has it that he's just there as basically an animated corpse, but that doesn't explain a vampire's *need* for nutrition in the form of blood. if he needs nutrition, can that suggest that while he not alive in a technical sense, he's alive in another way? from a physical standpoint, cell regeneration *has* to happen. synapses still have to fire in your brain. your lungs may wither and die, but at the same time vampires stereotypically have amazing regenerative powers. they'd have to heal a cut: does that happen purely by supernatural forces or an advanced natural healing ability?

i think 'romantic figure' here is being misinterpreted. a vampire's interest in having sex with a human is one thing, but his 'romance' is derived by the way *humans* perceive them.

i agree with cathy, too. it's been my experience that when a woman loses a close loved one, like a parent, they become incredibly randy for about a minute. explain *that* one.... :)
 
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