complete resignation

You don't have to take part in the capitalist system when it comes to writing. The internet means you can offer your work for free, without needing to worry about commercial viability. Or you can do a bit of both (I have some free stuff and I sell things).

Whatever you decide, I'd recommend not worrying about manuscript formatting or submission guidelines while you write. Write in whatever way works... then format it for submission when you're finished.

I was going to say the same thing!

Offer your art on a website. People will enjoy that. Problem solved

The publishing business is a business. It might not be what you are looking for, but please don't stop writing!

You have to figure out what your goals are.

Is your goal to be published by a publishing house? Then you're going to have to conform to the rules and standards of the publishing game. These formalities are less strict when it comes to smaller, independent presses/publishers.

Is your goal simply to write and share your work with the world? Then all you need is a web site.

Leah Raeder said:

You have to figure out what your goals are.

Is your goal to be published by a publishing house? Then you're going to have to conform to the rules and standards of the publishing game. These formalities are less strict when it comes to smaller, independent presses/publishers.

Is your goal simply to write and share your work with the world? Then all you need is a web site.

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I have to agree with this

The capitalist system is about earning money from your writing. Most great artists struggled to make a living in their lifetimes, if you want to join those ranks fill your boots!

Personally I love writing but I'm pretty keen on the idea of earning a living by my pen rather than it being an expensive hobby that I can hope sends my name through the ages.

Sky Lumina said:

ok, what i thought would never happen, happened: i got discouraged so badly that i quit writing my second novel halfway through. i tried to get my first one out there while starting on the second but after about 50 rejections or so (i didn't count the exact number) i thought f*** it, this isn't how it's supposed to be; with the queries, everything so damn shallow and nice, playing by rules more than by imagination.
this has nothing to do with expressing one's soul. art's supposed to break the rules, not add to them. i'm so angry and disappointed at the whole capitalistic system. nobody cares anymore. and now it's gotten so far that even when i do feel like i want to write, i don't, because then i have to think of stupid mansucrpit formats (WTF??). it seems the world is over the whole poetic way of showing some personality and stuff.
anyone agree?

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You're not serious, are you?

Art is also supposed to be about quality, and 99% of what is called art is just crap on a cracker.

I've heard a lot of anger when writers can't sell, but this is the first time I've heard capitalism blamed. Of that unbelievably unfair need publishaers have for format that actually makes writing readable, even though most of it still stinks on ice. Especially when the writer starts calling it "art."

The only real rule is that you have to write something worth reading.

You really do get what you pay for in this life, and free is almost always worth exactly what you pay for it, which is nothing. If you've read any of teh crap called "writing" on teh internet, you should know what I mean. If you don't know, what you write will still be crap, but you can save face by calling it "art."

You aren't being censored for anything except lack of quality. The a lot of BS about great artoists striggling, not taking part, not being part of the capitalistic system, but the truth is that the moment these artists created something worthy, they were paid for it, and they all took the money.

But, oh, that dreadful manuscript format that's so unfair and so incredibly difficult to get right! Oh, that unGodly demand for quality and talent! It's just not fair.

I do think you'll be better off giving your magnificent "art" away on the internet. At least you won't be forcing people to pay for it. It will still cost them time, and that's sad, but at least it won't cost them money. You can stick your nose up in te air, wallow in your great imagination, call yourself an "artist", and justify your failure inside your own mind.

Sometimes not being able to write is the greatest gift the world can be given.

If you're giving up because of rejections, then why are you writing?

I have been thinking of the "alternate strategy" I will use if my work is unpublishable by the popular publishers. e-publishing and contests seem to be fairly good ways to get a first book out there. I want to offer one book to the Amazon new author contest, and also try to find an e-publisher who publishes off-brand kind of semi-literature. I feel that paper bound books will be things of the past very shortly and I am very impressed by e-publishers. I feel shortly, you will see authors who are only found on the internet, and who are never found on book store shelves. I see hard copies of a book as simply advertising devices to get your name out there.

I totally agree with #10 post above. Writer's Write. You should write even if you cannot make any money from it. Obviously, it is much better if you do. I can see the argument that "you need money"-- so do I, and it is "time consuming," -- It certainly is that too, but if you are a writer, you have an inner compulsion to create stories and set them down on a page, and there is no amount of rejection that will make you stop doing this, because it is hardwired. --- Book writing has never been a money making proposition for me. I try to explain this to certain people I know who do not consider anything valid unless money is the end result. -- I personally do not understand them.

Sky Lumina said:

also i get that everyone's trying to make money of course; but they are so damn hellbent on it that they will not take a tiiiny chance to try something new. everyone seems to be on the safe side. and i'm sure there are plenty of people out there who are in fact true artists but who just haven't made it. there are many famous examples of people who died before they made it, even.

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I think the point James was making that you're missing is it's unlikely you're being rejected for being too new and different. Most rejections are due to quality issues.

Whether people will read anything you put online will also be down to quality.

There are examples of people who were rejected when they were awesome, but the chances of being one of those people is slim. Getting angry at the system means you're not looking at your writing to see if it could be improved, because you're assuming the rejections were someone else's fault.

If you want to just share stuff with the world, all of that doesn't matter much. We don't care about quality when a five-year-old brings home a painting either. But if you want a big readership, whether commercially or through the internet, quality matters. You won't get a big readership unless you're critical about the quality of your own work.

art's supposed to break the rules, not add to them.

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Have you really thought this through? Every time I encounter this notion, I find very little intellectual rigor behind it.

Sky Lumina said:

....if i muster the motivation for it somehow...

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I think now's a good time to sit down and ask yourself what you want from writing and how much do you want it. Not everyone is cut out for publishing, which is often a grueling and disheartening business. But, as others have pointed out, there are other alternatives. If writing brings you joy, I see no reason to stop. You just never know what's over that next hill.

I agree with Leah, you have to decide what your motivation is and understand the publishing is a business while writing is the art.

However, for sake of friendly (and I do mean friendly) debate, what's the alternative to capitalistic publishing? Let's say we do make publishing completely about the merit of the art and not about the almighty dollar. Who, then, determines if the art has merit? It would simply be impossible to publish everything anyone writes, and then let the community decide. There are not enough trees/recycle bins to supply the paper, and I don't have the time to read as much as I want to as it is. The only way I could see it working is if there were some criteria by which art could be deemed meritorious. This can only be done via review, which immediately gets us into cronyism, censorship and the same gripes as before about a system or group of individuals (artists versus capitalists) who determine what we read. At its most innocent it's the hive mind of the group's personal taste that determines what is "art." You've solved nothing by doing this. You have also insulted a great number of people who will pay for art.

Sky Lumina said:

also i get that everyone's trying to make money of course; but they are so damn hellbent on it that they will not take a tiiiny chance to try something new. everyone seems to be on the safe side.

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I actually get what you mean with this. I've had two rejections so far saying they like my writing, like the concept, characters etc but don't think my novels marketable

Tis annoying, I mean come on...take a bloody risk!

Anyway, don't give up fella! Keep trying and eventually, hopefully you'll get your writing published.

I agree with Zefiris and go back to the talent that emerged in the sixties. People in all the arts experimented - it didn't all 'work' but we have benefited from it since. Jack Kerouac with his non-stop roll of paper going through the typewriter - terrible formatting!
Those Samisdat writings from behind the Iron Curtain are probably collectors' pieces now.
Buy a set of ten ISBN numbers, make up a press name for yourself and print out chapbooks from your own computer- that's available to everybody on here, and at least starts the ball rolling. It takes away from that rejected, isolated feeling.
I'm very near to doing this with single (or a couple of) short stories and leaving them on trains! Once you think AWAY from money-making, the entire world opens up into possibility after possibility.
And then...........

Sky Lumina said:

Polenth; i've had everything proofread, my manuscript is definitely clean and the story is subjective, wouldn't you say?

Miss Plum: i've not only thought this through, i've OVERthought it. of course it depends on how much of the rules are broken. sure there are many who use this point as an excuse, but i still think that with art should come at least SOME freedom.

aadams73: this is exactly why i'm posting here although i'm starting to think even that was a mistake since almost nobody seems to get my point and most mistake me for someone who writes crap and blames others for this (i have experiences that state i'm not among those - not that i should even begin to justify myself).

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I get your frustration. I really, really do. Querying is hard, it hurts, it makes you question yourself as a writer, feel jealousy towards those who get over the hurdle, etc. There are people who get it on their first try, but for most people, it's not the first book that gets them an agent.

It's hard to see in the moment, but what people are saying isn't necessarily that you are a horrible writer, your book might just not be quite there yet. Just because your writing is free of technical errors doesn't mean the rest is subjective. There are many other things that could be wrong.

Your freedom of creativity isn't taken away by agents, and they aren't mean, and they aren't out to get new people. It doesn't sound to me (and correct me if I'm wrong) like you're doing anything really strange with your book, since you said "what makes me angry is when i do things published authors have done, which are exceptions to those guidelines but good ideas..." which means that agents or publishers are unlikely being turned off by your formatting, but something else. You keep talking about the rules you're breaking--exactly which rules are you breaking that are so horrible? (I'm being genuine with that question).

Everyone in this situation is trying to earn a living, that's just the way it is, but if your book is great, someone will want it. It might not be the first book. Like I said above, usually it isn't. But that doesn't mean you should give up.

However, if you don't want to do it this way (which is totally fair), you've seen lots of suggestions for what you can do instead, and those are all great and valuable ideas as well.

Sky Lumina said:

kaitlin: "You keep talking about the rules you're breaking--exactly which rules are you breaking that are so horrible? (I'm being genuine with that question)"
i don't even remember all of it but there's one that especially galled me; an agent complained about me using three dots when a sentence wasn't completed in direct speech. sure i've seen it done differently too, but i've also seen it with the dots, so i don't see the big problem. i wasn't even aware of the fact that i had apparently broken a rule (one that is completely unnecessary anyway).

true, it might not be perfect enough. but one can never know. either i keep trying (which i can't, this endeavor will only piss me off even more if i do) or i give up.
and yeah, there are those other options that sound less draining, but i just don't know anymore. i'm not strong enough to be a saleswoman, i'm just a feeble writer (or so i thought).

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Honestly, I think you've got a bit of Special Snowflake Syndrome. "Why will no one recognize my genius? I'm creating art here, why is everyone complaining about rules?"

The thing about writing rules is this: every rule can be broken if you're good enough.

Everyone who thinks they are brilliant and original and creative and too artistic to be shackled by the rules meant to bind lesser writers takes the first part of the above statement to heart, and ignores the second part (or simply assumes that they are, in fact, good enough). Then when they get slammed for breaking the rules, they write rants like yours, accusing the publishing industry of being a bunch of crony capitalists who just don't recognize creativity and talent when they see it.

For example, I find your posts difficult to read because you refuse to capitalize the words beginning your sentences. Maybe you think that is artistic and expressing your personality; I find it distracting and annoying. Do you expect agents to look past things like that to see the hidden genius in your words?

I support what I think you're saying. Let's see:

-- I'm good at the creative parts, but I might suck at the business side of things, including querying, etc. Why are creative types not allowed to suck a little at business?

-- While the industry is freaked out by things like really crossed genres, the book can still be amazing. They aren't necessarily willing to put their necks out to try something unproven in the marketplace. That clashes with the artistic side of things and is not a quality problem.