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Giant Baby
07-03-2010, 04:42 AM
Sorry if this is TMI. I posted too little information in a question I asked earlier, and I think I wasted some people's time with that. Please, skim at will. I'm open to whatever.

So...

It needs to look like an acute illness. The victim was vomiting and soiling himself publicly the evening before--ipecac, not self-administered--and the main antagonist uses this as an opportunity to kill him in some manner that would look like, well, anything that could kill him naturally with and/or following extreme flu-like symptoms (or some variation thereof). It doesn't have to be undetectable, just something that would not be looked for without other evidence of foul play.

I can rely on the old air bubble into the bloodstream and give him a heart attack if necessary, but I'd love a poison (including but not limited to herbs or other natural poisons, OTC medications, whatever), or any other manner of achieving death that would suggest an acute illness gone quickly to extremes. The antagonist would have unlimited resources for getting his hands on whatever he needs, and has no scruples about being hands on, if there's a technique that might work.

I'm willing to go back and give the victim a prior (managed) condition, if that helps at all. He's running for the US Senate as a fairly young man (40ish), and is still riding his former boy band fame, so he can't be too infirm. Actually, he'd seem to be the picture of health. But, I could certainly swing diabetes, or any other disease that's outwardly livable if well managed and could still explain why no one looks too closely into his death.

He can die over a period of a few days, if necessary. But, I'd rather it be quick and dirty, if possible.

Any ideas? I'm willing to go almost anywhere for this one.

(Don't worry- He's not the *worst* person in the book, but he's kind of got it coming. I'm a little sad to see him go. He's a schmuck, but he's made me write some deliciously obtuse things, and I'll miss him. G'bye Senator Joey.)

GeorgeK
07-03-2010, 05:03 AM
For his age, and especially running for Senate, there'd be a coroner's inquest probably mandatorily. Ipecac I believe was taken off the market more than a decade ago. An older ME would probably pick up on it from the smell and that would throw up red flags.

backslashbaby
07-03-2010, 06:26 AM
Most any poison would work then, wouldn't it? You still hear about cyanide and arsenic being used, but I'd probably do a more obscure herb. There are many.

PM me if you want examples of deadly herbs that I couldn't imagine LE checking for.

Drachen Jager
07-03-2010, 07:42 AM
Ricin. Easy to make, easy to get your hands on and it's one of the most deadly toxins in the world.

.5 milligrams is deadly. That's about as much as a few grains of salt. Even if there was an autopsy it's unlikely they'd notice such a small amount unless they were looking for it.

kaitiepaige17
07-03-2010, 07:49 AM
cyanide.

ladyleeona
07-03-2010, 08:12 AM
make him need heparin (a blood thinner) for his preexisting atrial fibrillation (heart arrhythmia), forcibly (or covertly) OD him and give the bastard a paper cut. LOL. (so maybe more like dude 'accidentally' slips in shower, hits the noggin, gets knocked out, and said head bleeds until dude exsanguinates. Hard to orchestrate maybe, but stuff like that happens all the time....

*thinks that would be a horrible way to go, even for a fictional character*
*goes back to non-murdering YA WIP*

cbenoi1
07-03-2010, 08:23 AM
A John Bonham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bonham) death.

Domoic acid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domoic_acid) could also be fun. Not death, but with a brain severely damaged, not a senator anymore...

-cb

kaitiepaige17
07-03-2010, 08:24 AM
make him need heparin (a blood thinner) for his preexisting atrial fibrillation (heart arrhythmia), forcibly (or covertly) OD him and give the bastard a paper cut. LOL. (so maybe more like dude 'accidentally' slips in shower, hits the noggin, gets knocked out, and said head bleeds until dude exsanguinates. Hard to orchestrate maybe, but stuff like that happens all the time....

*thinks that would be a horrible way to go, even for a fictional character*
*goes back to non-murdering YA WIP*

KILL! KILL! KILL! :evil

ladyleeona
07-03-2010, 08:31 AM
KILL! KILL! KILL! :evil

LMAO--I've got a shelved thriller that I did that a lot in. and then one day I got mad and killed everyone, MC included. Not a good thing 11k in. I'll go back and undrop that bomb eventually. [maybe.]

So for now I'm trying to reign in the bloodthirsty side...:e2seesaw::e2teeth:

mgoblue101415
07-03-2010, 10:22 AM
Belladonna. It is a plant whose berries are lethal in as few as 10 berries, and supposedly it is almost untraceable. Considering though that they probably wouldn't be looking for it, it probably would never be discovered. Macbeth actually used belladonna. The real one, not the play version.

You wouldn't want to mix the berries in with other berries or something else the guy was eating (the berries are actually tasty so the guy probably would eat them) because then they would be found in the stomach and the ME would probably try to figure out what they were.

Your best bet would be to have the killer smash the berries into liquid form then inject the juice into the bloodstream.

Although, it doesn't have flu like symptoms, more LSD symptoms.

Cassiopeia
07-03-2010, 10:51 AM
KILL! KILL! KILL! :evilYou scare me. ;)


Belladonna. It is a plant whose berries are lethal in as few as 10 berries, and supposedly it is almost untraceable. Considering though that they probably wouldn't be looking for it, it probably would never be discovered. Macbeth actually used belladonna. The real one, not the play version.

You wouldn't want to mix the berries in with other berries or something else the guy was eating (the berries are actually tasty so the guy probably would eat them) because then they would be found in the stomach and the ME would probably try to figure out what they were.

Your best bet would be to have the killer smash the berries into liquid form then inject the juice into the bloodstream.

Although, it doesn't have flu like symptoms, more LSD symptoms.
I was also going to recommend something from the nightshade family. Belladonna is a good choice.

Giant Baby
07-03-2010, 07:29 PM
A girl goes to bed and wakes up to a whole lot of tasty death! Thanks everyone. I love AW so much for this particular forum.

Off to research all you've given me. (And hoping to make his death as ridiculous as his life. It's a challenge. :tongue)

Mags

PS- GeorgeK- Thanks very much for the head's up on Ipecac. It's still available, but I've just looked more carefully after your post, and what's on the market is hugely diluted (is now liquid vs. syrup). Fortunately, I think I've got an easy work around for that, and I'm grateful for the catch!

GeorgeK
07-03-2010, 08:01 PM
So, then it's just much more dilute than it used to be? Ok, that would make sense, with why they didn't change the name. As a physician you get notices on drugs sometimes before the FDA makes it's final ruling.

With someone that high profile, there will be an inquest. Maybe he should just hire a hitman?

Then the pointy haired boss says, "and then we hire another one to cover our tracks, and then one to cover those tracks..."

Evilcatbert replies, "but then ultimately it's free, right?"

kaitiepaige17
07-03-2010, 09:10 PM
You scare me. ;)


I was also going to recommend something from the nightshade family. Belladonna is a good choice.

MWAHAHAHA!! :e2teeth:

Nivarion
07-03-2010, 11:47 PM
Polonium can have some fun result.

It causes the lining of the intestine to shluff off, resulting in horrible diarrhea. If it takes long enough for it to to be tested for it'll be broken down.

They'll be able to tell he died of radiation poisoning, it'll just be hard to tell who did it.

RJK
07-04-2010, 12:52 AM
A minimal overdose of worfarin or some other anticoagulant, will cause him to hemorrhage internally. He will literally bleed to death, internally. If you are careful of how much you give him, you can cause this by small OD's over time.

waylander
07-04-2010, 01:04 AM
Sodium azide

ladyleeona
07-04-2010, 02:54 AM
A minimal overdose of worfarin or some other anticoagulant, will cause him to hemorrhage internally. He will literally bleed to death, internally. If you are careful of how much you give him, you can cause this by small OD's over time.


yep--warfarin or heparin. but I'm pretty sure a small OD over time would begin causing excessive nose bleeds--and because Mr. 'Bout-to-die is so high profile, I'm pretty sure they would catch that before he kicked the bucket.

Maybe better to massively OD at one time. JMHO.

GeorgeK
07-04-2010, 03:24 AM
Unless they came out with something new, heparin is not available in oral form. Coumadin (warfarin) is but would be fairly obvious at autopsy. I say a hit man and blame it on whatever talking point that senator uses as his whip. Or use a made up drug in which case nobody can dispute what it does.

Kalyke
07-04-2010, 07:41 AM
Oleander. All you got to do is throw a few flowers on his salad and he is worm meat bro.

Look up acute Oleander Poisoning.

Or not.

Absolutely no way to trace it to a pharmacy.

StephanieFox
07-04-2010, 08:51 AM
You could feed your victim something he was very allergic to.

debirlfan
07-04-2010, 07:09 PM
You're willing to make him diabetic? The guy's been sick and throwing up - I'm thinking an OD of insulin could be blamed on him having taken his insulin and then puking up what he ate, especially if he's known to be a fairly "brittle" diabetic. Nobody is going to notice one more needle mark on a diabetic.

Bufty
07-04-2010, 08:01 PM
An 'off' oyster can be pretty serious.

Giant Baby
07-05-2010, 09:28 PM
These are all fantastic. I'm curious about the ricin, because it's connected with terrorism, and therefore adds another level of diabolical association to my character. It looks like death usually occurs within a few days with ricin poisoning from what I can find. I wonder it that would be sped up to a quicker end if he was already so compromized by the effects of the Ipecac? Hmm... looks like more googling fun.

ladyleeona
07-05-2010, 09:42 PM
These are all fantastic. I'm curious about the ricin, because it's connected with terrorism, and therefore adds another level of diabolical association to my character. It looks like death usually occurs within a few days with ricin poisoning from what I can find. I wonder it that would be sped up to a quicker end if he was already so compromized by the effects of the Ipecac? Hmm... looks like more googling fun.

Watch NCIS season 7, epi 21 (Called obsession I think--maybe on HULU.com) It deals with ricin poisoning delivered via tiny pellet stabbed into the skin. I think they said the method was something the Russian KGB used to use to off peeps. To doublecheck I just did a google search and found some links with both KGB and ricin mentioned, so I'll go on a limb and say the two were really connected and it could add a little viable terrorism emphasis to the dudeman's death.

ETA: I think it kills in like 2-3 days--so I doubt ipecac would expedite things that much.

Drachen Jager
07-05-2010, 11:25 PM
Watch NCIS season 7, epi 21 (Called obsession I think--maybe on HULU.com) It deals with ricin poisoning delivered via tiny pellet stabbed into the skin. I think they said the method was something the Russian KGB used to use to off peeps. To doublecheck I just did a google search and found some links with both KGB and ricin mentioned, so I'll go on a limb and say the two were really connected and it could add a little viable terrorism emphasis to the dudeman's death.

ETA: I think it kills in like 2-3 days--so I doubt ipecac would expedite things that much.

That episode of NCIS was based on a couple of actual assassinations (well one successful, one attempted) carried out by the KGB in the '80s in London. They used an umbrella with a compressed air system to deliver the bb into the buttocks, the second attempted assassination victim related the whole story.

The biggest advantage here, and the reason the KGB was using it is that because ricin takes a few days and the victim gets really sick it's most likely there will be a doctor in attendance when he dies, which normally means no forensic autopsy.

waylander
07-06-2010, 01:16 AM
The victim was a Bulgarian dissident named Georgi Markov

ladyleeona
07-06-2010, 04:29 AM
That episode of NCIS was based on a couple of actual assassinations (well one successful, one attempted) carried out by the KGB in the '80s in London. They used an umbrella with a compressed air system to deliver the bb into the buttocks, the second attempted assassination victim related the whole story.

The biggest advantage here, and the reason the KGB was using it is that because ricin takes a few days and the victim gets really sick it's most likely there will be a doctor in attendance when he dies, which normally means no forensic autopsy.


Awesome--I knew I like NCIS for a reason =). I mean I feel bad for the dead dude, but you know what I mean....

Rusty Shackleford
07-07-2010, 10:37 PM
Try using digitalis/foxglove. It has all of the symptoms you named.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digitalis#Toxicity

shawkins
07-08-2010, 04:35 AM
There's a recipe for homemade ricin in a book called The Poor Man's James Bond (http://www.amazon.com/Poor-Mans-James-Bond-C-065/dp/0879472308/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278549285&sr=8-1). IIRC, castor beans are the main ingredient.

What? Everyone was in high school once.

cbenoi1
07-08-2010, 05:21 AM
The thing with ricin and other known plant poisons is that they are part of the police poison screening process. All the docs in my family say the same thing: when poisoning is suspected, a blood sample is kept for the police. In the same token, any suspect death goes to the coroner's office. I don't think you can hide that kind of death under the guise of an accute indigestion that easily.

You can, however, shroud poisoning as an accident. People die every day from pesticides and solvents mis-manipulation. I just doubt a senator-to-be will dealing with such things anyway.

So I come back to the John Bonham death - ethylic coma (binge drinking) and breathing one's own vomit. Even ethylic coma can be fatal. It's gruesome, but there is nothing the police can find except alcohol in his blood. Remains the method to convince the victim to ingest the alcohol... (hint: toting a gun might help)

-cb

debirlfan
07-08-2010, 07:54 AM
That's why I was thinking that if the victim was diabetic, an OD of insulin would look accidental.

BillTrain
07-18-2010, 10:21 AM
I nominate pufferfish poisoning:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pufferfish

-BT

Giant Baby
07-18-2010, 07:23 PM
I nominate pufferfish poisoning:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pufferfish

-BT

BillTrain, you are my new hero (although I'm seriously tempted to write a book next where I just kill people off, this thread has been such an... um, inspiration).

From the CDC (http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/tetrodotoxin/casedef.asp):


Biologic: No biologic marker for tetrodotoxin exposure is available.
Environmental: No method for detection of tetrodotoxin in environmental samples is available commercially.

From eMedicine (http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/818763-diagnosis):

No specific laboratory test that confirms tetrodotoxin ingestion exists; thus, dietary history is key for diagnosis.

The symptoms are perfect, death can occur in as few as four hours, and as a particularly nasty treat, survivors of the poisoning have confirmed that while it sends the victim into a paralytic coma, they are fully conscious and aware of what is happening for the duration.

That seems to me like a very impolite way to kill your best friend and meal ticket of over twenty years. (Assuming none of the experts here know of a reason why it still won't work, or should still be caught. The human body is just so tricky.)

Thank you BillTrain!

:e2headban

Torgo
07-19-2010, 02:38 PM
There's a recipe for homemade ricin in a book called The Poor Man's James Bond (http://www.amazon.com/Poor-Mans-James-Bond-C-065/dp/0879472308/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278549285&sr=8-1). IIRC, castor beans are the main ingredient.

What? Everyone was in high school once.

I think in some jurisdictions (including mine) you can get banged up for owning a copy of that, even electronically... approach with caution.

trocadero
07-19-2010, 03:16 PM
I'm in a hurry and overseas with limited internet, so I haven't got time to read all the other posts - sorry. Someone might already have said this, AND I KNOW YOUR'E NOT A MURDERER but - when I read your subject line I thought - what a great idea for a mystery. Someone wants to murder someone, and finds out how to do it by posing as a mystery writer, then getting all the other writers to come up with the 'how' - even solving problems as they come up. He worries about how to get rid of a particular piece of evidence? He posts a question and gets lots of replies.

But...some clever forum member starts to get suspicious... then regrets having left so many clues about himself on his CPU and now the murderer might come after him... Okay - they're rough ideas, but it could be interesting.

SomberBee
07-21-2010, 03:12 AM
make him need heparin (a blood thinner) for his preexisting atrial fibrillation (heart arrhythmia), forcibly (or covertly) OD him and give the bastard a paper cut. LOL. (so maybe more like dude 'accidentally' slips in shower, hits the noggin, gets knocked out, and said head bleeds until dude exsanguinates. Hard to orchestrate maybe, but stuff like that happens all the time....

Deliciously wicked. I love. May borrow. :)

SomberBee
07-21-2010, 03:13 AM
There's a recipe for homemade ricin in a book called The Poor Man's James Bond (http://www.amazon.com/Poor-Mans-James-Bond-C-065/dp/0879472308/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278549285&sr=8-1). IIRC, castor beans are the main ingredient.

That is TERRIFYING...!!!

orion_mk3
07-24-2010, 06:18 AM
Might I suggest parathion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parathion)? It's an organophosphate pesticide that's highly toxic and produces symptoms similar to malaria, very useful if the character is a world traveler. If the character is taking phosphates for some other medical reason (chest pains, for example) it wouldn't arouse suspicion.

It's also a highly ironic death if the character's a politician, considering how much they have to deal with agribusiness lobbyists!

PGaritas
07-24-2010, 07:15 AM
Tetrodotoxin isn't foolproof. James Bond survived it. : )

GeorgeK
07-24-2010, 01:20 PM
If the character is taking phosphates for some other medical reason (chest pains, for example)

Do you mean "nitrates" for chest pains? If, "no," then what medication were you thinking of that is a phosphate?

aadams73
07-24-2010, 07:05 PM
I can rely on the old air bubble into the bloodstream and give him a heart attack if necessary

A gas embolism is tricky to pull off. If you go venous, you'd need a pretty large bubble. Shoot for an artery and you need a smaller bubble, but getting at arteries isn't all that easy.

It's an extremely inexact science.

You'd need some way to restrain the victim to get that needle in to begin with. Any struggle, there will be physical signs of that, not to mention a puncture wound. Blah, blah, blah.

Air embolisms sound like a great way to off someone, but they're really just not all that convenient or easy.

Also, regarding Ipecac, I'm pretty sure it won't make someone--as you put it--soil themselves. (And although the syrup is not readily available these days, you can still make it yourself if you have access to an ipecac plant.)

orion_mk3
07-25-2010, 12:00 AM
Do you mean "nitrates" for chest pains? If, "no," then what medication were you thinking of that is a phosphate?
I'd have to find my notes...there was a really good one that I came up with, but it's slipped my mind.

YoungWriter
05-23-2014, 11:32 PM
Maybe this isn't that great an idea, but i haven't seen yew yer, or water hyacinth. both are widely grown, and easily obtained and synthesized. tgey aren't used often though, and i think that the symptoms basically fit.
It may be worth using a hallucenogenic, and after he goes a little cuckoo, he might, accidentally walks off a cliff chasing pink elephants.

Cath
05-23-2014, 11:39 PM
This thread is four years old. No need to reply.

Cath
05-24-2014, 04:46 AM
Reopening because the OP asked me to! :)

Giant Baby
05-24-2014, 06:25 AM
I'd forgotten all about this until I got the email ping today. Just though I'd circle back. I was having such a tough time offing my senator, and this thread totally came to my rescue. The mode of his death ended up being a more significant detail than I'd anticipated, so I'm really grateful to all the wicked smarty-pants in this forum. The book I was researching will be released Feb 2015 by a new imprint of S&S/Atria, complete with the senator who got dead and stayed dead thanks to the ideas I found here. You guys rule.:heart: :heart:

Thanks for the unlock, Cath!