(re)Writing yourself into a corner

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christwriter

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So I'm at that point in the (sixth) rewrite process where I have to start showing it to people again. I've got a good beta reader, I've got my Mom as my gee-I-need-encouragement reader, I've got my dad breathing down my neck ("When are you going to college? Why aren't you agented already? I've got a rich friend/business partner who will be GLAD to help you get published.") and I've probably spent every single waking moment NOT spent researching agents, their pet peeves and formatting rules rewriting to make it PERFECT. I KNOW I need to get outside opinions so that the rewriting is effective ...

...but I can't do it. The idea of showing my work to somebody, even my mom, is making me so anxious right now I want to throw up. Just talking about it is doing it again. I think it's not so much the idea of getting negative feedback as it is the idea that I could be so freaking wrong about what "good writing" is yet again. So I guess my question is:

1. Have you ever done this to yourself? Worked yourself into a corner?

2. How do I fix it?

And since I'm asking for advice ... about a year ago a local representing himself as a professional freelance editor (aka book doc) told me he'd do a trade-for-services, my art for his help editing my novel. Problem is that his "advice" was total crap (every change he gave me, I've since discarded) and most of our consultation sessions consisted of him holding pages of my manuscript to his chest while he waxes poetic about how wonderful it all is. The final straw, oddly enough, was his using nonstandard proofreader's marks and telling me "this is what you'll see when (not if) you get published". I've got one more meeting with the guy, I'm still willing to keep up my end of the bargain and do the artwork (Mostly to prevent him screaming at me that I'm scamming him out of his time), but I don't want to work with him anymore. I just don't know what to tell him the next time I have to talk to him. Help?
 

RemusShepherd

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1. Have you ever done this to yourself? Worked yourself into a corner?

2. How do I fix it?

When I hear 'writing myself into a corner', I think that I've written a story in such a way that I cannot continue it effectively. Either the characters are refusing to cooperate with the plot or I've done something to make it impossible to continue without a continuity problem.

You're just being shy. :)

How to fix being shy? Not sure. I think if you just leap into it and get your stuff out there, you'll get desensitized to having other people read it before long. Yes, it might be painful the first couple times, but you'll get used to it. Starting with your mom or your friends might help.

I just don't know what to tell him the next time I have to talk to him. Help?

Do you have any other beta readers or crit partners? Tell him that you want to focus on their input. Say that he's done enough, and you want to do his artwork before you get anymore critiques...but don't go in for more critiques. Or, you know, tell him the truth -- that his methods may be a bit outdated, and you're concerned that his suggestions are not appropriate for the modern genre in which you are writing.

Good luck, paisano.
 

kaitie

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I think the only way to really get over it is to just remind yourself that a) not everyone will like everything and that's okay, b) anything that are issues can be dealt with and fixed--that's the beauty of something like writing, then you do it.

I get much more nervous giving my work to people than I do sending it to agents. I know, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but it's true. I've got two people who are reading my current WIP right now who love it and I get regular requests for new pages, but I still worry every single time I give it to them. If I don't hear back I worry that it's because they hate it, I worry that even if they love it now they'll hate where I'm going with the story, that sort of thing.

The thing is, getting criticism gets easier as it goes. The first times I would end up in tears convinced I was a terrible writer and I hated it. I got over most of that ages ago in some workshop classes, but I still feel that way sometimes, even if to a lesser extent.

The really interesting thing that you don't anticipate, though, is that a lot of times even getting negative feedback can make you feel good. If I've got a scene that feels off and I know something isn't quite working and then I get feedback saying the same and offering a suggestion, simply having that direction alone can be enough to make me want to jump back into the editing game to fix the problem. That sense of drive and motivation is the number one thing I feel when I get feedback.

When you go through and find something saying, "This paragraph needs work," then you can say, "Okay, I can do that!" and then you can make it better. And that's the cool part--you are improving it, and there's something really cool in knowing that. :) So try to focus on the fact that your story is going to improve because of it and don't take criticism personally, and then it's just a matter of putting yourself out there. The more you do it, the easier it becomes--yes, even for me.

ETA: As for the guy whose advice you don't value, you said you already have a great beta reader so I'd just tell him that you already have someone else working on this one right now, but if you need him you'll be sure to let him know.
 

Kalyke

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I have a problem showing my work to others because the feedback is so uneven. I give the same work to a writing teacher and the work is "Brilliant." I give the work to a friend or relative and the writing is "Hack," and "Amaturish." I look at it myself and it looks similar to published writing, so I can't understand what the deal is. I think the same thing goes with your editor. He is not in the business of making enemies. He wants you to come back. I think I would rather impress someone who could care less than impress some sycophant who wants more business from me. -- Yeah fulfill your end of the bargin. Things like this happen and that is all you can do. What these people are saying about developing a thick hide is about the only way to get through the writer's life. You can't be sensitive, and your work is not precious. I would always warn against acting like an arrogant piss-head in public though. Always seem grateful, even if you could care less, and make lots of friends.
 

friendlyhobo

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You and I are opposite. I'm fine with showing my work to people on the internet who I'll never meet face to face, but if my anyone in my family ever read my work I'd bury myself alive.
As for that sketchy guy, say "oh thanks etc" and then leave and never look back.

If there isn't a press for time, perhaps you can set aside your MS for a week or so to let your anxiety taper off. Then show it some nice AW beta reader who has received specific instructions on the type of feed back you want. :)
 

Sharii

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You'll get negative feedbacks, everyone gets them, don't worry too much about that. The more you hear them, the easier they are to take. :)
 

Linda Adams

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On agents: Tell everyone it's a slow process, which it is. That's what I do. I just say I'm waiting on agents to respond and they're backlogged. Where possible, try avoid the discussion altogether.

On feedback: So don't ask for feedback. Seriously. It's not a requirement. Granted, it can help, but if you want to improve your writing, a better way is to give critiques. You'll get the more benefits than someone pointing out problems in your manuscript. I used to ask everyone for feedback. Then I made the changes, because I assumed they knew more than I did. One day, I looked at something I'd written and realized that it wasn't what I intended. I decided not to show anyone anything--I didn't even tell them I was writing something. So I wrote a story and revised until I was happy with it and learned how to judge when things were ready to go (and I did get things published without feedback). My novel in submission has no feedback done on it.

On the rich friend: Well meaning people are going to do this to you, so you're going to have to learn to deal with them. I have a person who has tried to refer me to a romance writer. I have an urban fantasy with a thriller storyline. No romance. It's going to be a bad fit. I actually tried telling him this, but he didn't believe it. Thankfully, this seems to have died on its own. I could tell you that you could explain to him that what he proposes is a bad option, but he probably won't see it that way (friend may have money, but he won't have distribution set up, etc.). You could tell him you'll keep it under consideration, but that you want to try submitting into the publishers first. Some of this is going to be a tap dance.

On the editor: Right now, he's getting something for nothing--your art. He's the only one benefiting. A possible, simple option is tell him you've got a lot going on in your life and that you need a break. No matter what, it's not going to be easy. But worse is getting trapped in something that you begin to resent.
 

Jamesaritchie

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You don't have to show your work to anyone. You don't even have to tell anyone you're writing at all. I don't know when the whole beta reader, much get feedback notion got started, but it's not a rule, many, many very good and well-known writer don't use beta readers, and never did.

The truth is, very few beta readers could tell you whether a grocery list was written well. Even those few who do know usually have no clue at all about YOUR writing.

It's a triply bad idea to show your work to friends or family, or even to talk about it to friends and family until after it's finished, polished, and in submission. Or until after it's published, for that matter.

Seriously, I've seen a few wrietrs helped by good beta readers, but I've seen many, many more harmed by beta readers, and teh ones harmed the most are almost always the same ones who swear they've been helped the most.

Getting feedback is not a rule, and beyond basic mechanics, which you can learn without showing your work to anyone, I don't think it's even a good idea, at least for most writers, most of the time.

Agents and working editors give teh only feedback that matters, and you're teh one who knows how you need to write, what you want to say, and how you want to say it.

At the very least, if you can't resist lure of beta readers, ask them what they've had published in your genre lately, and how well the reading public received it.
 

Libbie

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Yeah -- you don't need to feel obligated to show your work to anybody if you don't want to. A lot of writers find feedback helpful but you REALLY, REALLY need to be getting that feedback from the right people. If you can't locate beta readers who give USEFUL critiques (as in, they can tell you what needs to be fixed and WHY, and after thinking about their advice, you agree with them on the why part) then don't use beta readers at all.

Or, you can do what I do and seek feedback, but only seriously consider changing those things which two or more trusted people point out. I prefer to let my writing stay as-is unless I've written something that trips up more than one smart, insightful reader consistently. Although I do change whatever my agent suggests, almost without exception. She's got a crazy eagle-eye for improving books.

If you're rewriting six times, I wonder whether you're too hung up on the idea of making the book perfect. Perfect books don't exist. Every author wishes something could be changed about his or her published books. You cannot make your book perfect. You should try to make it as good as you can, but if you obsess over getting it just right to the point that you're rewriting six times or more, you're never going to finish anything and you're never going to get anything published. What you need to learn to do is trust your own senses. You need to develop a feel for when something is finished enough to submit it.
 

frimble3

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I don't know when the whole beta reader, much get feedback notion got started, but it's not a rule, many, many very good and well-known writer don't use beta readers, and never did.
I got the impression that the 'beta reader, feedback thing' came out of writing classes. After getting students to show their work to other students in class, people got the impression that it was some necessary thing.
 

RemusShepherd

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I got the impression that the 'beta reader, feedback thing' came out of writing classes. After getting students to show their work to other students in class, people got the impression that it was some necessary thing.

I think that for some people it *is* necessary. And it does emulate the author/editor or author/agent relationship, with the important difference that a beta reader probably doesn't know as much about the craft as an agent or editor.

But you're right, having beta readers is not necessary for everyone. Some people might be better off without them.

However, I suggest getting beta readers until you at least have the ear of an editor or agent who can steer you the right way. In the absence of feedback, it is possible for an author's writing to get worse, and you want to avoid that.
 

BrooklynLee

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Do you think it's ready to show to agents? If you feel that it's ready, then what your friends and family think is immaterial.
 

christwriter

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I feel it's *almost* ready. But I've gotten the impression that agents and editors aren't really working with authors anymore, so if anything is wrong with the manuscript--I use the wrong words, use a word too often (and that words like "and" and "the" are included in the "use it too often" category) I have anything unclear, or too obvious, or repeated too often or not often enough, I get the formatting wrong, I have typos, basically, if the thing is not publishing-ready when they get it--the manuscript won't even make it to the agent. I mean ... if it's not perfect, it gets rejected, right? Barring some magical wonderful chance, and chance doesn't break my way real often. I assume later on down the line, if things sell, I'd get wriggle room but on a debut book I'm pretty much on my own, aren't I?
 

friendlyhobo

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I feel it's *almost* ready. But I've gotten the impression that agents and editors aren't really working with authors anymore, so if anything is wrong with the manuscript--I use the wrong words, use a word too often (and that words like "and" and "the" are included in the "use it too often" category) I have anything unclear, or too obvious, or repeated too often or not often enough, I get the formatting wrong, I have typos, basically, if the thing is not publishing-ready when they get it--the manuscript won't even make it to the agent. I mean ... if it's not perfect, it gets rejected, right? Barring some magical wonderful chance, and chance doesn't break my way real often. I assume later on down the line, if things sell, I'd get wriggle room but on a debut book I'm pretty much on my own, aren't I?

You can make it as polished as you can, but there is no such thing as perfect.
 

shaldna

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it's time to shit or get off the potty.


I'm sorry to be blunt, but that's what it comes down to. You've reached the point where you either do it, or you walk away. The choice is yours.

And I can tell from your post that you really WANT to do it, and honestly, there's nothing stopping you.

Come on, start showing that baby off.
 

Libbie

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But I've gotten the impression that agents and editors aren't really working with authors anymore, so if anything is wrong with the manuscript ... the manuscript won't even make it to the agent. I mean ... if it's not perfect, it gets rejected, right?

Not true at all. My agent requested a full and read the whole thing, then rejected it and told me she thought it needed certain revisions -- if I was willing to do them, she'd welcome a resubmit of the revised version and would read the full again. I did the revisions she suggested (quickly -- I didn't want to lose that opportunity) and she offered representation.

So no, if it's not perfect, they won't reject you out of hand. Experiences like mine happen often.

Plus, practically all agents and ALL editors expect that they will do at least one round of revisions with authors before they try to sell a book. It's part of their job. For editors, it's a huge part of their job. Even after my initial revision, my agent and I still did three more revisions before the book went on submission.
 

RemusShepherd

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Not true at all. My agent requested a full and read the whole thing, then rejected it and told me she thought it needed certain revisions -- if I was willing to do them, she'd welcome a resubmit of the revised version and would read the full again. I did the revisions she suggested (quickly -- I didn't want to lose that opportunity) and she offered representation.

Incidentally, I'm hearing stories like this a *lot*. I'm getting the impression that agents prefer to see a flawed manuscript so they can test to see if the author is willing to work with them. They'd rather have authors they mesh well with than a perfect story that doesn't need their input.

Then again, maybe I'm just drawing conclusions from anecdotes. (shrug)
 
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